Chud called a hell of a game. Again.

[GoColts8818]

17 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

When you have a QB who struggles to through anything further than 15 yards with a patchwork offensive line, I don't know that Bill Walsh could scheme that much better.  All teams have to do is play press and do shallow coverage.  When he does get off a longer pass, it usually works.   He doesn't do it much.

Chud is a good play caller.  He has a history of it.  Just watch when Luck is back and more guys are health.  Game he called against Denver was very good.

The Steelers exposed the Colts last week.  Up until that game teams were playing the Colts to take away Gore when Matt was in there and daring the 40 year old QB to beat them and he did.  Well the Steelers showed if you take away the pass and say go ahead run the ball or take deep shots the Colts offense with Matt isn't gong to work as well. 

Like Polian used to say the lifespan of any back up QB in the NFL is about four games then other teams figure him out because they get the tape they need to figure him out.  Well teams have figured out Matt and he's showing that he's a 40 year old QB and why he's now a back up QB.

I'll also say what I've said before I've noticed when the QB has played well this year rather it's Chud or Pep people felt the OC did a good job.  When the QB played poorly people are not happy with the play calling.  I think the real issue might be QB play. 

 

[JPFolks]

6 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

Have no idea whatsoever why you quoted my post addressing Chud.  Never said a thing about Manusky.

Nice how you popped up after 1 bad game on the road with a banged up, 40-year-old backup QB, and an even more battered offensive line.

Why weren't you begging to differ earlier?

It's not Chud's fault that Matt H. has decided to completely stop going through his progressions.  I don't blame Matt.  The protection is starting to falter and he is beat to absolute crap. 

It's not Chud's fault that the o-line is missing arguably its best, most complete, and most important player.

It's not Chud's fault our offense likes to commit Red Zone penalties like they're going out of style.

It's not Chud's fault that Matty H. got strip-sacked - a play that COMPLETELY turned the momentum of the game.  Prior to that, the Colts were moving the ball and getting scoring opportunities.

At a certain point, the freaking players have to EXECUTE.

Was it Chud's best game?  No.  But he was far from being the only problem.  If you have not paid attention to the execution of the plays, particularly today, that have been called, there is no way I can have a serious football discussion with you.

 

Some of that was Matty H. 

Bingo on the QB play issue.  It's not Chud's fault that Matt got happy feet/eyes

I cannot count how many times during the last 2 games that Matty H. has missed a completely wide open/uncovered WR/RB.  A few of the missed opportunities would've been for-sure TDs in the Red Zone.

Nope.  That's Chud's fault, according to JPFolks.

First, let's be clear, it isn't as if anyone you are raging against cares if you think you can have a serious football related discussion with them.  If there's a problem, it's on your end. And frankly, who cares if you're happy with the conversation.  You are the one choosing to forward it with us, no one forced you.  Nice try though. 

Chud called a great game his first time out, and pretty good the second time.  But slowly he's getting away from the things that were working to the point that today he gave up on most of what made Matt and the offense work.  From the start of the season (not the most recent game as you falsely claimed) I have been arguing we needed to incorporate the TE's and Crossing Routes as well as effective check downs to the backs.  Bradshaw made that last part really effective, but we all knew he was a short term prospect as he's always been made of glass and predictably got hurt.  Zurlon Tipton was still effective, but Chud failed to learn from previous games that Gore has failed repeatedly at catching and moving the check down effectively.   And the crossing routes were scaled back tremendously today and it seemed when he did call them, it was Johnson and his slow legs and bad hands he put on the route.  I am not great Griff Whalen fan but he is effective in exactly that role and always has been.  Johnson has shown over and over he's done.  Sure, he pepped up once this entire season against his old team, big deal.  

Red Zone offense has been miserable for weeks.  He has some assets, such as the TE's who each caught 8 TD's last year, primarily in the Red Zone.  I don't recall much effort to use them.   Poslusny was out, we should have taken advantage of his replacement with mismatches and crossing routes, but alas, what he did those first couple times out, he stopped doing and what he substituted was not effective hence the score.  Thus, I pointed it out.  There was absolutely ZERO that happened in that game that justifies any pats on the back for anyone out there, let alone one of the coordinators.  It was a miserable disaster all around,  Wherever Pagano is going, Chud will be right behind him out the door.  The fact that after 2 years with the team, he can't communicate his game plan without a translator on staff is RIDICULOUS.  That fact alone, which has been talked about a lot in he media prior to this game, should demonstrate an inability to deal with the realities of the job.  It's like he moved to Germany and wants to teach German but doesn't speak it and needs a translator to explain to the kids the lessons he's trying to teach about how to speak German.   

[Gavin]

The offensive game plan was fine. Some very good play calls were made. Hasselbeck missed multiple chances in the game on deep balls and inside the 20 plus penalties killed some drives again

1st possession:

7:56 Moncrief got behind the defense in the end zone, Hasselbeck never looked his way

3rd possession

12:02 2nd Quarter pass deep to Fleener...Might have been a TD but certainly huge yards

10:43 An argument could be made Moncrief should have caught that ball but it was slightly overthrown

 

Certainly I agree more could have been done in the form of more crossing routes. More of an effort should have been made to attack Nick Marshall however.

 

 

[Coltsman1788]

Chud isn't any better than Pep.  People just wanted a change so it has to be better right?  The on field results don't support Chud being any better.  Offense is still stinking up the joint. 

[Restored]

-There's a reason why Bill Polian said the average life of a backup QB is 4 games. After that, teams get the game film they need to capitalize on what the player can and cannot do. Clearly teams are seeing that Hasselbeck can't push the ball down the field nor can the running game get going enough to protect him.

-This team is only going to go as far as Luck will take them when he is back healthy.

-People need to realize that Chud is using Pep's playbook. There simply isn't enough time to break everything down and implement his playbook, especially with a backup QB. I will say that Chud could have called some better plays but he is somewhat limited in what he can do.

[jszfunk]

Anyone else wonder if things keep going like they  have been the last two games, this will probably be Hasselbacks last season?  He does not need to take a beating like this at 40.

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

Yes, Pep's favorite nephew is trying to win his job back by arguing on a message board.

That's why he is his favourite nephew.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

6 hours ago, Gavin said:

Once you put triangles into the equation ya made me have to think quite a bit I must admit. I am not nor never will be aspiring to major in geometry

What does triangles have to do with geometry?

[zibby43]

5 hours ago, JPFolks said:

First, let's be clear, it isn't as if anyone you are raging against cares if you think you can have a serious football related discussion with them.  If there's a problem, it's on your end. And frankly, who cares if you're happy with the conversation.  You are the one choosing to forward it with us, no one forced you.  Nice try though. 

Chud called a great game his first time out, and pretty good the second time.  But slowly he's getting away from the things that were working to the point that today he gave up on most of what made Matt and the offense work.  From the start of the season (not the most recent game as you falsely claimed) I have been arguing we needed to incorporate the TE's and Crossing Routes as well as effective check downs to the backs.  Bradshaw made that last part really effective, but we all knew he was a short term prospect as he's always been made of glass and predictably got hurt.  Zurlon Tipton was still effective, but Chud failed to learn from previous games that Gore has failed repeatedly at catching and moving the check down effectively.   And the crossing routes were scaled back tremendously today and it seemed when he did call them, it was Johnson and his slow legs and bad hands he put on the route.  I am not great Griff Whalen fan but he is effective in exactly that role and always has been.  Johnson has shown over and over he's done.  Sure, he pepped up once this entire season against his old team, big deal.  

Red Zone offense has been miserable for weeks.  He has some assets, such as the TE's who each caught 8 TD's last year, primarily in the Red Zone.  I don't recall much effort to use them.   Poslusny was out, we should have taken advantage of his replacement with mismatches and crossing routes, but alas, what he did those first couple times out, he stopped doing and what he substituted was not effective hence the score.  Thus, I pointed it out.  There was absolutely ZERO that happened in that game that justifies any pats on the back for anyone out there, let alone one of the coordinators.  It was a miserable disaster all around,  Wherever Pagano is going, Chud will be right behind him out the door.  The fact that after 2 years with the team, he can't communicate his game plan without a translator on staff is RIDICULOUS.  That fact alone, which has been talked about a lot in he media prior to this game, should demonstrate an inability to deal with the realities of the job.  It's like he moved to Germany and wants to teach German but doesn't speak it and needs a translator to explain to the kids the lessons he's trying to teach about how to speak German.   

 

I'm not raging against anyone.

 

And I'm not trying to be rude either when I say I cannot take your points seriously because the all-22 film doesn't show consistently bad play-calling.  It shows consistently bad execution by Matt H.  

 

Just because you rail on about how you think it's the play-calling, doesn't make you right.  I've acknowledged that the past game wasn't Chud's best but he has been severely limited given the personnel at his disposal.

 

No AC, no Luck, no Bradshaw.  

 

If you want me to break down plays from various series with GIFs, to show you that all the plays you want HAVE been run but Matth H either missed the read entirely or dumped it off to the first read in a hurry, even if it was a bad one, I'd be happy to show you.

 

Furthermore, Matt H's inability to beat team's down the field has serioisly hindered the offense.  You can't beat good college teams without a viable deep attack, much less an NFL team.

 

Defenses in this league adjust.  If you thought that the Colts could continue to dink and dunk at will, you'd be wrong.  Even in college, the threat of a viable downfield attack is extremely important to keep safeties back and discourage continuous press-man at the line of scrimmage.

 

I could go on and on about the various factors that have contributed to some of the offensive problems encountered in the past weeks.

 

But if you want to pop up and slam Chud for no apparent reason, I look forward to your presence in this thread after Luck and company return.

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Chud isn't any better than Pep.  People just wanted a change so it has to be better right?  The on field results don't support Chud being any better.  Offense is still stinking up the joint. 

 

Yeah, there are no relevant variables to consider there, like four of Chud's five games being without Andrew Luck...

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Chud isn't any better than Pep.  People just wanted a change so it has to be better right?  The on field results don't support Chud being any better.  Offense is still stinking up the joint. 

 

Seriously?       That's your view?     Really?

 

Good God.................

 

 

[zibby43]

51 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, there are no relevant variables to consider there, like four of Chud's five games being without Andrew Luck...

 

I'm with Superman.  100%.  It just so happens that Superman is one of the most knowledgeable members on this board.

 

People should pay attention to what he brings to the table more often.  Chances are you'll learn something.

 

Adding to the Luck variable - no AC, Good at RT (he was overwhelmed a few times this past Sunday), Reitz at LT, Bradshaw lost, etc.

 

One of the most critical variables has been defenses adjusting to the fact that Matty H. struggles pushing the ball down the field.

 

He also gets flushed from the pocket too quickly/forced into first reads too often.

 

Some of the crossing routes that people adore are open - Matty H. just hasn't seen them because he has bailed out of the pocket - completely eliminating one side of the field.

 

Crossing routes also take longer to develop.  Two of our tackles have not been holding the edges long enough to let these plays develop.

 

The QB scramble to pick up a 1st down has been eliminated from the offense as well.  While not a set play, a QB that can move the chains is of paramount importance in the NFL.  Look at Newton and Wilson.  Sometimes, a bit of running just completely changes the way a defense has to defend a team.

 

The TEs have not been utilized more because Chud has been keeping the TEs to block (to make up for the fact that the edges of the OL are in shambles).

 

I'm amazed some people completely ignore these huge concerns and lay all the blame at Chud's doorstep.  The guy can only do so much. 

 

47 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Seriously?       That's your view?     Really?

 

Good God.................

 

 

 

Check that.  I'm with both of these guys.  I thoroughly enjoy the posts of NewColtsFan as well.

 

[Coltsman1788]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah, there are no relevant variables to consider there, like four of Chud's five games being without Andrew Luck...

So what?  Let's look at their results in the games with Hasselbeck.  Under Pep, Matt was 2-0 with no turnovers.  Under Chud 2-2 with two embarassing blow out losses.  Some of that is teams acquiring more film on our offense with Hasselbeck but that does not acquit him because football is a game of adjust and readjust. In both losses, the offense completely disappeared in the second half.  That is the exact reciprocal of the problems many complained of under Pep when the offense got off to slow starts week after week only to show up too late in the second half.  Disappearing for the entire second half is much worse...needless to say.   At the end of the day, both men have been unable to get our offense to perform consistently for four quarters. 

 

What's Chud's best calling card thus far this year?  Luck's performance vs. Denver was the best he looked all year...sadly.   I concede that Chud made a good impression with a "healthy" Luck in the upset win over the Broncos.  But this isn't a feat that the Colts haven't achieved with Pep as offensive coordinator in previous seasons and most recently in the playoffs no less.  So Chud hasn't done anything more with that either. 

 

So what has Chud done that Pep hasn't already?  I like Chud's play mix and flow better but at the end of the day his results aren't any better.  He is just the new guy and a change that many wanted from Pep.  But honey moons soon wear out without results.  The offense performed better under Hasselbeck with Pep as OC.  Luck's one game with Chud was better than he looked in his previous ones with Pep but we have seen Luck perform well under Pep in prior seasons.  Both OCs can try to use the injury excuse.  Luck was hurt in week one and most of the games where he looked bad under Pep was partially attributed to his playing with non disclosed injuries.  At the end of the day the on field results don't support that Chud is any better than Pep.  In fact, one could argue that the team is performing worse.  

 

If Irsay decides to get rid of Chuck then Chud likely won't be far behind him.  Irsay won't give a crap about an injured Luck excuse.  He didn't spare Caldwell and his staff even though they played an entire season without Peyton Manning.  If Irsay wants to clean house then that is exactly what he will do.

[Coltsman1788]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Seriously?       That's your view?     Really?

 

Good God.................

 

 

I didn't stutter. 

[Coltsman1788]

3 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

I'm with Superman.  100%.  It just so happens that Superman is one of the most knowledgeable members on this board.

 

People should pay attention to what he brings to the table more often.  Chances are you'll learn something.

 

Adding to the Luck variable - no AC, Good at RT (he was overwhelmed a few times this past Sunday), Reitz at LT, Bradshaw lost, etc.

 

One of the most critical variables has been defenses adjusting to the fact that Matty H. struggles pushing the ball down the field.

 

He also gets flushed from the pocket too quickly/forced into first reads too often.

 

Some of the crossing routes that people adore are open - Matty H. just hasn't seen them because he has bailed out of the pocket - completely eliminating one side of the field.

 

Crossing routes also take longer to develop.  Two of our tackles have not been holding the edges long enough to let these plays develop.

 

The QB scramble to pick up a 1st down has been eliminated from the offense as well.  While not a set play, a QB that can move the chains is of paramount importance in the NFL.  Look at Newton and Wilson.  Sometimes, a bit of running just completely changes the way a defense has to defend a team.

 

The TEs have not been utilized more because Chud has been keeping the TEs to block (to make up for the fact that the edges of the OL are in shambles).

 

I'm amazed some people completely ignore these huge concerns and lay all the blame at Chud's doorstep.  The guy can only do so much. 

 

 

Check that.  I'm with both of these guys.  I thoroughly enjoy the posts of NewColtsFan as well.

 

I enjoy both of their posts as well...you can do that and still ocassionally offer a differing take.   I respect both and all posters on this board whether or not I agree with them all the time.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I didn't stutter. 

 

No, you didn't.

 

You also didn't note that Pep had a healthy Luck and a healthy team, while Chud has a 40-year old back-up and a shell of a team that has crumbled around him.      

 

So, you compared a brand new car to one that has been in several accidents and proclaimed that there is no difference.....

 

Those are not insignificant details......

 

In other words,  Chud has done far more with far less, and yet you don't see any difference.......

 

Sorry,  but that's pretty amazing to me.....   

 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

So what?  Let's look at their results in the games with Hasselbeck.  Under Pep, Matt was 2-0 with no turnovers.  Under Chud 2-2 with two embarassing blow out losses.  Some of that is teams acquiring more film on our offense with Hasselbeck but that does not acquit him because football is a game of adjust and readjust. In both losses, the offense completely disappeared in the second half.  That is the exact reciprocal of the problems many complained of under Pep when the offense got off to slow starts week after week only to show up too late in the second half.  Disappearing for the entire second half is much worse...needless to say.   At the end of the day, both men have been unable to get our offense to perform consistently for four quarters. 

 

What's Chud's best calling card thus far this year?  Luck's performance vs. Denver was the best he looked all year...sadly.   I concede that Chud made a good impression with a "healthy" Luck in the upset win over the Broncos.  But this isn't a feat that the Colts haven't achieved with Pep as offensive coordinator in previous seasons and most recently in the playoffs no less.  So Chud hasn't done anything more with that either. 

 

So what has Chud done that Pep hasn't already?  I like Chud's play mix and flow better but at the end of the day his results aren't any better.  He is just the new guy and a change that many wanted from Pep.  But honey moons soon wear out without results.  The offense performed better under Hasselbeck with Pep as OC.  Luck's one game with Chud was better than he looked in his previous ones with Pep but we have seen Luck perform well under Pep in prior seasons.  Both OCs can try to use the injury excuse.  Luck was hurt in week one and most of the games where he looked bad under Pep was partially attributed to his playing with non disclosed injuries.  At the end of the day the on field results don't support that Chud is any better than Pep.  In fact, one could argue that the team is performing worse.  

 

If Irsay decides to get rid of Chuck then Chud likely won't be far behind him.  Irsay won't give a crap about an injured Luck excuse.  He didn't spare Caldwell and his staff even though they played an entire season without Peyton Manning.  If Irsay wants to clean house then that is exactly what he will do.

 

How can you talk about on-field results without taking into consideration the fact that Luck has been injured for 80% of his games? Chud's offense has underperformed without Luck; Pep's offense underperformed with Luck. 

 

Nothing else matters. You're building from a faulty foundation until you acknowledge that. And a lot of the other stuff you posted is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Also, just in case you have missed my real point and don't know my opinion, let me reiterate: Pep was bad, and needed to be fired. The jury is still out on Chud, but even if he's bad, that doesn't mean Pep shouldn't have been fired.

[Coltsman1788]

12 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

How can you talk about on-field results without taking into consideration the fact that Luck has been injured for 80% of his games? Chud's offense has underperformed without Luck; Pep's offense underperformed with Luck. 

 

Nothing else matters. You're building from a faulty foundation until you acknowledge that. And a lot of the other stuff you posted is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Also, just in case you have missed my real point and don't know my opinion, let me reiterate: Pep was bad, and needed to be fired. The jury is still out on Chud, but even if he's bad, that doesn't mean Pep shouldn't have been fired.

I never said Pep shouldn't have been fired.  Just said that Chud hasn't really proven to be any better and he should and most likely will be fired if Irsay fires Chuck.  Pep's offense under performed this year with an injured Luck.  Andrew got hurt in Buffalo in week one...he continued to play hurt for a few games and took more hits until he was finally sidelined later.  You don't think that impacted how he looked this year with Pep?  Prior to this year Luck looked just fine under Pep.  Luck had one good game under Chud and unfortunately got hurt.  But he's had many over the years playing under Pep.

 

 

[Coltsman1788]

41 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

No, you didn't.

 

You also didn't note that Pep had a healthy Luck and a healthy team, while Chud has a 40-year old back-up and a shell of a team that has crumbled around him.      

 

So, you compared a brand new car to one that has been in several accidents and proclaimed that there is no difference.....

 

Those are not insignificant details......

 

In other words,  Chud has done far more with far less, and yet you don't see any difference.......

 

Sorry,  but that's pretty amazing to me.....   

 

Not true.  Luck got injured week one in Buffalo and has played hurt since as I pointed out to Superman.  Pep did not have a fully healthy Luck this year either.  But  last year when he did the offense performed just fine.  Nothing either of you have said convinces me that Chud is really any better. 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I never said Pep shouldn't have been fired.  Just said that Chud hasn't really proven to be any better and he should and most likely will be fired if Irsay fires Chuck.  Pep's offense under performed this year with an injured Luck.  Andrew got hurt in Buffalo in week one...he continued to play hurt for a few games and took more hits until he was finally sidelined later.  You don't think that impacted how he looked this year with Pep?  Prior to this year Luck looked just fine under Pep.  Luck had one good game under Chud and unfortunately got hurt.  But he's had many over the years playing under Pep.

 

Luck didn't get injured in Buffalo. And that's the game where we ran 22(?) straight pass plays in a one score game. Awful play calling from the first offensive possession of the year. Pep totally abandoned the prudent and conscientious gameplans that he was using in preseason, that he used last year in the playoffs, and back in 2013, ignored play action, ignored Y Banana and its variants, allowed Luck to hold on to the ball for far too long, and the offense was dreadful from Week 1.

 

This is a repeat of the first couple of weeks in 2014, and the last month of 2014. Pep struggled to call good games the entire time he was here. Yes, Luck had some really good games. That doesn't mean Pep was a good coordinator. He proved he was a bad coordinator. In 2+ seasons, he called two games without Luck, and zero games with Castonzo.

 

Chud has called four games without Luck, and three without Castonzo. So far, all Chud has proved is that he'll run the ball more stubbornly than Pep, but his book is very much unwritten to this point. 

 

The bolded is likely, but it's also completely immaterial and not at issue in this thread. When's the last time a head coach was fired, but his coordinator survived? Tom Moore, 2002? I'm sure there are others, but it's not common.

[NewColtsFan]

17 minutes ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Not true.  Luck got injured week one in Buffalo and has played hurt since as I pointed out to Superman.  Pep did not have a fully healthy Luck this year either.  But  last year when he did the offense performed just fine.  Nothing either of you have said convinces me that Chud is really any better. 

 

If Luck got hurt in the week one game vs. Buffalo,  I think you're the only person here who knows it.

 

You're the first poster I've seen make that claim.

 

The widely held view is he got hurt in week 3 vs. Tennessee.    That was the game where he reportedly hurt his shoulder.

 

And if nothing either Superman or I have given you food for thought,  then facts must be your enemy.

 

[Coltsman1788]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Luck didn't get injured in Buffalo. And that's the game where we ran 22(?) straight pass plays in a one score game. Awful play calling from the first offensive possession of the year. Pep totally abandoned the prudent and conscientious gameplans that he was using in preseason, that he used last year in the playoffs, and back in 2013, ignored play action, ignored Y Banana and its variants, allowed Luck to hold on to the ball for far too long, and the offense was dreadful from Week 1.

 

This is a repeat of the first couple of weeks in 2014, and the last month of 2014. Pep struggled to call good games the entire time he was here. Yes, Luck had some really good games. That doesn't mean Pep was a good coordinator. He proved he was a bad coordinator. In 2+ seasons, he called two games without Luck, and zero games with Castonzo.

 

Chud has called four games without Luck, and three without Castonzo. So far, all Chud has proved is that he'll run the ball more stubbornly than Pep, but his book is very much unwritten to this point. 

 

The bolded is likely, but it's also completely immaterial and not at issue in this thread. When's the last time a head coach was fired, but his coordinator survived? Tom Moore, 2002? I'm sure there are others, but it's not common.

I thought Luck got hit pretty good one time during that Buffalo game.  If not Buffalo...it was relatively early in the season...Jets game maybe.   I recall discussion on here of Luck wincing on the sideline pretty early in the season when Hasselbeck went up to him and touched him and people saying that it looked like a reaction to injured ribs or something to that effect.  The point is Luck was hurt pretty early in the season long before the Colts became forthcoming about it.  Luck being the warrior that he is just tried to play through it for as long as he could.  He took more pounding until finally he had to be sat down.   Pep did not have a fully healthy Luck for most of the games he played this year either.  So the Luck injury excuse can really be argued this year for both Pep and Chud.  In either case Irsay likely won't accept it as an excuse for poor on the field production. 

 

 

[Coltsman1788]

6 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

If Luck got hurt in the week one game vs. Buffalo,  I think you're the only person here who knows it.

 

You're the first poster I've seen make that claim.

 

The widely held view is he got hurt in week 3 vs. Tennessee.    That was the game where he reportedly hurt his shoulder.

 

And if nothing either Superman or I have given you food for thought,  then facts must be your enemy.

 

Thanks for that...I had forgotten the exact game but knew it was pretty early in the season.

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I thought Luck got hit pretty good one time during that Buffalo game.  If not Buffalo...it was relatively early in the season...Jets game maybe.   I recall discussion on here of Luck wincing on the sideline pretty early in the season when Hasselbeck went up to him and touched him and people saying that it looked like a reaction to injured ribs or something to that effect.  The point is Luck was hurt pretty early in the season long before the Colts became forthcoming about it.  Luck being the warrior that he is just tried to play through it for as long as he could.  He took more pounding until finally he had to be sat down.   Pep did not have a fully healthy Luck for most of the games he played this year either.  So the Luck injury excuse can really be argued this year for both Pep and Chud.  In either case Irsay likely won't accept it as an excuse for poor on the field production. 

 

That was the Titans game, Week 3. He missed the next two games. There have been rumors and speculation that he was hurt all year, but both he and the staff have directly denied those, and have said that he got hurt in the Titans game. 

 

Pep had a fully healthy Luck in the first three weeks, and still called awful games. And then, when Luck came back, Pep abandoned a good first half gameplan against the Patriots, and his next two games were even worse than the first two of the season. When he should have been calling plays that would get the ball out of Luck's hands, he was calling verticals and refusing to stick to the run. Pep was awful this year. I was never really that big of a fan (I called his hiring a mistake after 2013, and hoped he'd get better), but the fact that he regressed this year was enough for me to be through with him. Just judge him on the Bills and Jets game, and you'll see terrible play calling. 

 

By the way, a less than healthy but functional Luck is better than whatever Hasselbeck has been the last two weeks.

 

I think we have three issues right now. First is that we don't have a QB who can make all the throws. Nothing anyone can do about that. Second, we have a banged up offensive line, one that isn't all that great even at 100%, and now we have a career backup starting at LT, a late 7th rounder starting at RT, and the interior is plug and play (based on preseason projections, the only player playing where he should be in Thornton, and he just missed a game). 

 

Third, and most important, is that we have a flawed offense to begin with. What Pep built, this No Coast Offense, which is an amalgam of three separate offensive philosophies with a completely onerous playbook, isn't good. Chud has made some adjustments, but this is still Pep's offense, from play design to terminology to audibles to protections, etc. If you look at the routes receivers were running yesterday (and I use the term "running" loosely) to what they were doing in the Saints and Panthers game, it's the same stuff. It's a stretch to even call them routes. Lots of times, they just go ten yards down the field and then turn and look at the QB. Put some of that on Chud for calling some of these flawed and incomplete concepts, but this is still not his offense. And I think he's gone out of his way to emphasize that, because he doesn't want to be judged based on what this team does with a makeshift OL and backup QBs and a weird Frankenstein offense; it's a little self serving, but that doesn't make it any less true. 

 

I think Chud would get back to the Coryell stuff with Luck in the lineup, while relying on some of the play action and counter concepts that Pep brought from Stanford (and then refused to use), just like he did against Denver. Until then, it's crazy to talk about Chud's offense not being any better than Pep's, and yes, the primary reason is that Luck has been out for the last four games. 

[Coltsman1788]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

That was the Titans game, Week 3. He missed the next two games. There have been rumors and speculation that he was hurt all year, but both he and the staff have directly denied those, and have said that he got hurt in the Titans game. 

 

Pep had a fully healthy Luck in the first three weeks, and still called awful games. And then, when Luck came back, Pep abandoned a good first half gameplan against the Patriots, and his next two games were even worse than the first two of the season. When he should have been calling plays that would get the ball out of Luck's hands, he was calling verticals and refusing to stick to the run. Pep was awful this year. I was never really that big of a fan (I called his hiring a mistake after 2013, and hoped he'd get better), but the fact that he regressed this year was enough for me to be through with him. Just judge him on the Bills and Jets game, and you'll see terrible play calling. 

 

By the way, a less than healthy but functional Luck is better than whatever Hasselbeck has been the last two weeks.

 

I think we have three issues right now. First is that we don't have a QB who can make all the throws. Nothing anyone can do about that. Second, we have a banged up offensive line, one that isn't all that great even at 100%, and now we have a career backup starting at LT, a late 7th rounder starting at RT, and the interior is plug and play (based on preseason projections, the only player playing where he should be in Thornton, and he just missed a game). 

 

Third, and most important, is that we have a flawed offense to begin with. What Pep built, this No Coast Offense, which is an amalgam of three separate offensive philosophies with a completely onerous playbook, isn't good. Chud has made some adjustments, but this is still Pep's offense, from play design to terminology to audibles to protections, etc. If you look at the routes receivers were running yesterday (and I use the term "running" loosely) to what they were doing in the Saints and Panthers game, it's the same stuff. It's a stretch to even call them routes. Lots of times, they just go ten yards down the field and then turn and look at the QB. Put some of that on Chud for calling some of these flawed and incomplete concepts, but this is still not his offense. And I think he's gone out of his way to emphasize that, because he doesn't want to be judged based on what this team does with a makeshift OL and backup QBs and a weird Frankenstein offense; it's a little self serving, but that doesn't make it any less true. 

 

I think Chud would get back to the Coryell stuff with Luck in the lineup, while relying on some of the play action and counter concepts that Pep brought from Stanford (and then refused to use), just like he did against Denver. Until then, it's crazy to talk about Chud's offense not being any better than Pep's, and yes, the primary reason is that Luck has been out for the last four games. 

Ok...ok...good posts Superman...as usual.  I concede this argument to you and New Colts. lol   I'll just say that I haven't been as enamored with Chud as some seem to be. I see him praised a lot but he still has a lot to prove in my opinion.  However, it is true that he has been given a tough hand out the gate and has had a very limited sample size to be judged on.   It's also true that Pep sucked.  I'm not a Pep advocate by any stretch and was also often frustrated by his play calling over the years.   Seeing our offense continue to struggle this season regardless of the reasons has just been painful to watch.  I'm likely posting out of pure frustration on this topic.

[zibby43]

7 hours ago, zibby43 said:

- Adding to the Luck variable - no AC, Good at RT (he was overwhelmed a few times this past Sunday), Reitz at LT, Bradshaw lost, etc.

 

- One of the most critical variables has been defenses adjusting to the fact that Matty H. struggles pushing the ball down the field.

 

- He also gets flushed from the pocket too quickly/forced into first reads too often.

 

- Some of the crossing routes that people adore are open - Matty H. just hasn't seen them because he has bailed out of the pocket - completely eliminating one side of the field.

 

- Crossing routes also take longer to develop.  Two of our tackles have not been holding the edges long enough to let these plays develop.

 

- The QB scramble to pick up a 1st down has been eliminated from the offense as well.  While not a set play, a QB that can move the chains is of paramount importance in the NFL.  Look at Newton and Wilson.  Sometimes, a bit of running just completely changes the way a defense has to defend a team.

 

- The TEs have not been utilized more because Chud has been keeping the TEs to block (to make up for the fact that the edges of the OL are in shambles).

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Ok...ok...good posts Superman...as usual.  I concede this argument to you and New Colts. lol   I'll just say that I haven't been as enamored with Chud as some seem to be. I see him praised a lot but he still has a lot to prove in my opinion.  However, it is true that he has been given a tough hand out the gate and has had a very limited sample size to be judged on.   It's also true that Pep sucked.  I'm not a Pep advocate by any stretch and was also often frustrated by his play calling over the years.   Seeing our offense continue to struggle this season regardless of the reasons has just been painful to watch.  I'm likely posting out of pure frustration on this topic.

 

I had made the same arguments but you simply glossed over them.

 

See the above points in bullet point format.  It's my post you quoted.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Ok...ok...good posts Superman...as usual.  I concede this argument to you and New Colts. lol   I'll just say that I haven't been as enamored with Chud as some seem to be. I see him praised a lot but he still has a lot to prove in my opinion.  However, it is true that he has been given a tough hand out the gate and has had a very limited sample size to be judged on.   It's also true that Pep sucked.  I'm not a Pep advocate by any stretch and was also often frustrated by his play calling over the years.   Seeing our offense continue to struggle this season regardless of the reasons has just been painful to watch.  I'm likely posting out of pure frustration on this topic.

 

I'm not necessarily enamored with Chud. I was glad to see Pep out of there, and the first gameplan was what I thought we should have been doing all year, so I'm still hopeful that Chud gets it and things will be good when Luck comes back. And I don't think it makes sense to judge Chud on what he's doing with a 40 year old backup (and we all know how bad MH looked in preseason). 

 

Bottom line, again, Pep needed to go. Hopefully Chud is better, but if he's not, we're not going to do well in these last three games, and the whole staff is probably gone anyways. I'm certainly not campaigning for anyone at this point, including Chud, although he has less stink on him than anyone else, IMO. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Outstanding takes on this Thread. Just enjoyed reading them. I will say this I thought Luck got some kind of minor injury in the Buffalo game. It was never reported and that is JMO but he didn't look right at times in the 2nd Half. The Tennessee game is where it was revealed that Luck was actually injured but he didn't look right after several hits in the Buffalo game or NY game. Cant prove any of it but that is my take. Regarding Chud, his playcalling in the Denver game was perfect and we all seen what he can do with a healthy Luck. Denver has the best Defense in the league and that was impressive playcalling from Chud IMO. I wanted Pep gone so maybe me saying Chud is good is being a bit biased.

[Coltfreak]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

That was the Titans game, Week 3. He missed the next two games. There have been rumors and speculation that he was hurt all year, but both he and the staff have directly denied those, and have said that he got hurt in the Titans game. 

 

Pep had a fully healthy Luck in the first three weeks, and still called awful games. And then, when Luck came back, Pep abandoned a good first half gameplan against the Patriots, and his next two games were even worse than the first two of the season. When he should have been calling plays that would get the ball out of Luck's hands, he was calling verticals and refusing to stick to the run. Pep was awful this year. I was never really that big of a fan (I called his hiring a mistake after 2013, and hoped he'd get better), but the fact that he regressed this year was enough for me to be through with him. Just judge him on the Bills and Jets game, and you'll see terrible play calling. 

 

By the way, a less than healthy but functional Luck is better than whatever Hasselbeck has been the last two weeks.

 

I think we have three issues right now. First is that we don't have a QB who can make all the throws. Nothing anyone can do about that. Second, we have a banged up offensive line, one that isn't all that great even at 100%, and now we have a career backup starting at LT, a late 7th rounder starting at RT, and the interior is plug and play (based on preseason projections, the only player playing where he should be in Thornton, and he just missed a game). 

 

Third, and most important, is that we have a flawed offense to begin with. What Pep built, this No Coast Offense, which is an amalgam of three separate offensive philosophies with a completely onerous playbook, isn't good. Chud has made some adjustments, but this is still Pep's offense, from play design to terminology to audibles to protections, etc. If you look at the routes receivers were running yesterday (and I use the term "running" loosely) to what they were doing in the Saints and Panthers game, it's the same stuff. It's a stretch to even call them routes. Lots of times, they just go ten yards down the field and then turn and look at the QB. Put some of that on Chud for calling some of these flawed and incomplete concepts, but this is still not his offense. And I think he's gone out of his way to emphasize that, because he doesn't want to be judged based on what this team does with a makeshift OL and backup QBs and a weird Frankenstein offense; it's a little self serving, but that doesn't make it any less true. 

 

I think Chud would get back to the Coryell stuff with Luck in the lineup, while relying on some of the play action and counter concepts that Pep brought from Stanford (and then refused to use), just like he did against Denver. Until then, it's crazy to talk about Chud's offense not being any better than Pep's, and yes, the primary reason is that Luck has been out for the last four games. 

Luck was injured in either the buffalo or jets game so he wasn't healthy for those games.  Also Luck is the one that changed the plays that Pep called from runs to passes in the Buffalo game and that is from Pagano The NE Pagano told Pep to change gameplan for second half and go up tempo. Again that is straight from Pagano 

 

dont forgrt get in those first 3 games Luck had 7 interceptions and 2 fumbles one lost one recovered   In his next 4 games he threw 5 more picks.   It's hard for any OC to look good when your QB is turning the ball over multiple times a game 

 

just sayin.  If Luck comes out forcing the ball and turning it over the offense is gonna look like butt again 

[chad72]

People used to roll the safety over respecting T.Y more but once they had film on Hasselback just getting rid of the ball fast and not pushing the ball downfield, they kept the safety closer to the line of scrimmage and our run game also suffered. 

 

Why is it difficult for folks to realize that Hasselback is suffering the same fate as other backup QBs where teams have more game film and it is easier for them to figure out backup QBs with a limited skillset?

 

The 2-0 with Pep and 2-2 with Chud is meaningless if you look at it from the prism of more game film for game planning against a QB. With Luck, it was play calling that called for 3rd and 20 when we had a few yards to go on 3rd down etc. and with the OL issues, teams blitzed the heck out of us because he was always looking for long routes. Now, they don't have to cover the long routes because they know Hasselback will get rid of the ball to the underneath guys who don't have a Welker or Edelman like quickness for YAC. So, they will let T.Y. run free sometimes knowing Hasselback won't even look for him like Luck would be willing to.

 

Game planning for Luck - blitz and defend long routes

 

Game planning for Hasselback - blitz and defend short routes

 

With Chud, he does need a mobile QB that can throw longer balls like Cam and Luck to extend his playbook, IMO. Hasselback is not that QB.

 

Chud's complete playbook will not be installed till the offseason, and Luck needs to be QB for it to succeed and we need a new QB coach to take Luck to the next level w.r.t accuracy and decision making. 

[Superman]

14 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Luck was injured in either the buffalo or jets game so he wasn't healthy for those games.  

 

No he wasn't. Why do people keep saying this? See above. Luck was injured in the Titans game in Week 3.

 

Quote

Also Luck is the one that changed the plays that Pep called from runs to passes in the Buffalo game and that is from Pagano The NE Pagano told Pep to change gameplan for second half and go up tempo. Again that is straight from Pagano 

 

So the offensive coordinator can't identify that we've thrown the ball 15 straight times because the QB is checking out of run plays, and it's not working, and tell him "WE NEED TO RUN THE BALL!" ??? Is he just suggesting play calls, or is he in charge of the offense?

 

And his play calls in the second half of the Pats game were predictable and ineffective. Directive from the HC or not, his play calling was bad.

 

Quote

dont forgrt get in those first 3 games Luck had 7 interceptions and 2 fumbles one lost one recovered   In his next 4 games he threw 5 more picks.   It's hard for any OC to look good when your QB is turning the ball over multiple times a game 

 

just sayin.  If Luck comes out forcing the ball and turning it over the offense is gonna look like butt again 

 

Yeah, the QB's performance isn't influenced the OC at all, nor should the OC be judged on how the QB plays... /sarcasm

 

I'm not blaming it all on Pep, 100%, I'm not saying he ruined Luck, etc. But he is certainly not absolved of all responsibility. It's his offense, and his play calling, and it was bad this year (and at times in the previous two seasons). 

[Coltfreak]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

No he wasn't. Why do people keep saying this? See above. Luck was injured in the Titans game in Week 3.

 

 

So the offensive coordinator can't identify that we've thrown the ball 15 straight times because the QB is checking out of run plays, and it's not working, and tell him "WE NEED TO RUN THE BALL!" ??? Is he just suggesting play calls, or is he in charge of the offense?

 

And his play calls in the second half of the Pats game were predictable and ineffective. Directive from the HC or not, his play calling was bad.

 

 

Yeah, the QB's performance isn't influenced the OC at all, nor should the OC be judged on how the QB plays... /sarcasm

 

I'm not blaming it all on Pep, 100%, I'm not saying he ruined Luck, etc. But he is certainly not absolved of all responsibility. It's his offense, and his play calling, and it was bad this year (and at times in the previous two seasons). 

I agree 100% that Pep should have stepped in and said wth Andrew stop throwing.   

I think think that is one of Peps major flaws. He gave Luck too much freedom

 

 

[Coltfreak]

On December 15, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Superman said:

 

Luck didn't get injured in Buffalo. And that's the game where we ran 22(?) straight pass plays in a one score game. Awful play calling from the first offensive possession of the year. Pep totally abandoned the prudent and conscientious gameplans that he was using in preseason, that he used last year in the playoffs, and back in 2013, ignored play action, ignored Y Banana and its variants, allowed Luck to hold on to the ball for far too long, and the offense was dreadful from Week 1.

 

This is a repeat of the first couple of weeks in 2014, and the last month of 2014. Pep struggled to call good games the entire time he was here. Yes, Luck had some really good games. That doesn't mean Pep was a good coordinator. He proved he was a bad coordinator. In 2+ seasons, he called two games without Luck, and zero games with Castonzo.

 

Chud has called four games without Luck, and three without Castonzo. So far, all Chud has proved is that he'll run the ball more stubbornly than Pep, but his book is very much unwritten to this point. 

 

The bolded is likely, but it's also completely immaterial and not at issue in this thread. When's the last time a head coach was fired, but his coordinator survived? Tom Moore, 2002? I'm sure there are others, but it's not common.

Dude that 22 pass plays was all on Luck.  Pagano said as much

 

It's ok to be critical of Luck us know.   He isn't perfect   You have to be an * to think Luck can't and doesn't change the plays.  He does it almost every play.     Doesn't matter who the OC is. If he is not reading the D or having a bad game or season. It will show. 

 

 

[Superman]

On 12/15/2015 at 2:16 PM, Coltfreak said:

I agree 100% that Pep should have stepped in and said wth Andrew stop throwing.   

I think think that is one of Peps major flaws. He gave Luck too much freedom

 

9 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Dude that 22 pass plays was all on Luck.  Pagano said as much

 

It's ok to be critical of Luck us know.   He isn't perfect   You have to be an * to think Luck can't and doesn't change the plays.  He does it almost every play.     Doesn't matter who the OC is. If he is not reading the D or having a bad game or season. It will show. 

 

Did you realize you were responding to the same person in both of these posts?

 

I know Luck has the freedom to change plays at the line. That doesn't mean the OC can't tell him 'we need to run the ball,' or 'make sure we stay in a run play.' That happens all the time. Instead, Pep allowed the offense to go four possessions without running the football once. Blame Luck all day long, but blame Pep, too. He was in charge of the offense.

 

I have no problem being critical of Luck. You can save that argument for someone else.

 

You are essentially arguing that the OC doesn't matter. If the QB plays poorly, than the OC is absolved of any responsibility; it's all on the QB. If the QB plays well, then the offense is performing, and the OC is untouchable. I disagree.

[Coltfreak]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

 

Did you realize you were responding to the same person in both of these posts?

 

I know Luck has the freedom to change plays at the line. That doesn't mean the OC can't tell him 'we need to run the ball,' or 'make sure we stay in a run play.' That happens all the time. Instead, Pep allowed the offense to go four possessions without running the football once. Blame Luck all day long, but blame Pep, too. He was in charge of the offense.

 

I have no problem being critical of Luck. You can save that argument for someone else.

 

You are essentially arguing that the OC doesn't matter. If the QB plays poorly, than the OC is absolved of any responsibility; it's all on the QB. If the QB plays well, then the offense is performing, and the OC is untouchable. I disagree.

Did you bash Tom Moore for the NE debacles that Peyton had?

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Did you bash Tom Moore for the NE debacles that Peyton had?

 

In what way is that relevant?

[Coltfreak]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

 

In what way is that relevant?

Because you are bashing Pep for Lucks screw ups So curious if you did the same with Tom    but I understand it doesn't fit the witch hunt mantra you and others have in here. 

 

 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Because you are bashing Pep for Lucks screw ups So curious if you did the same with Tom    but I understand it doesn't fit the witch hunt mantra you and others have in here. 

 

No I'm not. I'm bashing Pep for Pep's screw ups, his awful gameplans and poor play calling. And I'm perfectly content to move on, but you dug this old thread up.

 

I've also been critical of Luck's poor play and decision making. Those are separate, but related, issues.

[Coltfreak]

3.5 yards per play.  Worst game of the year AGAIN! 

 

Is there a worse offense in the NFL?   We have fallen so far from a year ago.  Top 3 offense to the worst in the NFL.     Chud  sucks

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

3.5 yards per play.  Worst game of the year AGAIN! 

 

Is there a worse offense in the NFL?   We have fallen so far from a year ago.  Top 3 offense to the worst in the NFL.     Chud  sucks

Better than Pep