AJ's 'shoulda been' TD catch.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Okay. I took another several looks at this play this morning after the dozen or so last night. Every single move that AJ performed last night in the end zone satisfied myself & the rule book. I first thought this was a TD. Then, went to rule posted by ColtsBlueFL. I then summized that he "may not" have established himself as a runner. I looked at this play 16 times. Then, compared it to the all22 post by ColtsLegacy. I then realized that AJ did, in fact, established himself as a runner.

1. AJ catches the ball with one foot down, in bounds. All the while having the sideline ref watching him for control. No call there.

2. AJ has the ball after having one foot down, then the second foot comes down in bounds.

3. He has both feet down, in bounds, in control of the ball.

4. Thereby, establishing himself as a runner before going out of bounds and to the ground.

TD! Pagano should've challenged. This is what I saw after reviewing this on my own. The call on the field was no catch/TD. Irrefutable evidence to over rule was there, IMO. I really do not see how they could've called it any different.

 

I never saw the play, but I reiterate, the Falcons radio Broadcasters I was listening to at the time were fairly certain Pagano was going to throw his red flag.  He never did and the only guess was Pagano didn't get a good enough personal view, and the booth people didn't get a solid replay view to radio down to him to challenge the play, or didn't radio down in time.  Who really knows at this point.

 

since I did not see it, did AJ step out of bounds with his foot and then fall to the ground?  or was it another part of his body that hit out of bounds first?  And finally, did he maintain all the way through if it was another part of the body that hit out of bounds and not his foot?

 

Thanks for the help.

[MR. Blueblood]

It's in the rules posted above.  If a guy stands there after making a catch, is he not in a position to have the ability to ward off or protect himself from any impending contact from an opponent?

 

Y / N

 

If Y, then this applies from end zone catches-

 

"...the ball is dead when the catch is completed."  Thus a TD.

 

Dean Blandino has mentioned several times in interviews that just having enough time after that catch to be capable of trying to avoid or ward off the opponent is enough.  The actual act itself doesn't have to come about, just the time frame that would allow it.

So a "catch" made in the back corner of the end zone, where a receiver has clear seperation from the defender (so no need to defend themselves from impending contact from an opponent) but has zero room left to become a runner, gets possession of the ball, has 2 feet in bounds and then steps OOB with the third foot, all while still maintaining control, is not going to be considered a TD catch?

[ColtRider]

I never saw the play, but I reiterate, the Falcons radio Broadcasters I was listening to at the time were fairly certain Pagano was going to throw his red flag.  He never did and the only guess was Pagano didn't get a good enough personal view, and the booth people didn't get a solid replay view to radio down to him to challenge the play, or didn't radio down in time.  Who really knows at this point.

I agree, 100%. It just looked like a TD by rule when you compare all of the evidence. But like you stated, who knows how they would've called it? I've seen some bad calls, but for the most part, the refs usually get it right after review.

[ColtsBlueFL]

So a "catch" made in the back corner of the end zone, where a receiver has clear seperation from the defender (so no need to defend themselves from impending contact from an opponent) but has zero room left to become a runner, gets possession of the ball, has 2 feet in bounds and then steps OOB with the third foot, all while still maintaining control, is not going to be considered a TD catch?

 

Stepping out of bounds is determined to be avoiding pending contact from an opponent.  So a TD is given.  They accounted for all of this with the removal of football move and replacing it with ability to avoid or ward off impending contact of an opponent. {which is the NFL's official definition of establishing oneself as a runner}

[ColtsBlueFL]

I agree, 100%. It just looked like a TD by rule when you compare all of the evidence. But like you stated, who knows how they would've called it? I've seen some bad calls, but for the most part, the refs usually get it right after review.

 

I have noticed the same thing, and it is because Dean Blandino himself is on the other end of the line and makes sure it is right, if the video is conclusive enough to show the items he looks for.

[MR. Blueblood]

Stepping out of bounds is determined to be avoiding pending contact from an opponent.  So a TD is given.  They accounted for all of this with the removal of football move and replacing it with ability to avoid or ward off impending contact of an opponent.

In the case of Johnson's possible TD it was more of his natural momentum that carried the 3rd foot out and not an intentional step OOB to avoid the contact (which was what I was trying to use in my example).  It's not a deliberate step, but a I have no choice but to continue OOB.  

[ColtRider]

I never saw the play, but I reiterate, the Falcons radio Broadcasters I was listening to at the time were fairly certain Pagano was going to throw his red flag. He never did and the only guess was Pagano didn't get a good enough personal view, and the booth people didn't get a solid replay view to radio down to him to challenge the play, or didn't radio down in time. Who really knows at this point.

since I did not see it, did AJ step out of bounds with his foot and then fall to the ground? or was it another part of his body that hit out of bounds first? And finally, did he maintain all the way through if it was another part of the body that hit out of bounds and not his foot?

Thanks for the help.

AJ steps out of bounds & to the ground with control AFTER he caught the ball, one foot down, then two, in bounds, while maintaining possession throughout the entire catch.

[bleevit]

Maybe this is what happens as the players age.  I think a lot of players would've made the extra effort to give up his body and drag a toe.  Should have IMO.

[ColtsBlueFL]

In the case of Johnson's possible TD it was more of his natural momentum that carried the 3rd foot out and not an intentional step OOB to avoid the contact (which was what I was trying to use in my example).  It's not a deliberate step, but a I have no choice but to continue OOB.  

 

 

AJ steps out of bounds & to the ground with control AFTER he caught the ball, one foot down, then two, in bounds, while maintaining possession throughout the entire catch.

 

Judging from your responses, it seems the Refs did not feel the first foot was still on the ground once possession and control of the football was made.  Because even if AJ's momentum made him step out of bounds, that alone might signal he wasn't in control enough to be established as a runner while in bounds.  So now he must maintain possession after (eventually) contacting the ground.  If he did, the it is certain the Refs never felt both original feet were in, just the second of them.  That's my guess.  And my Guess is it was too close on both feet being in in video replay (available at that time) for anybody to clearly overturn the ruling, yes?

 

Too bad he couldn't have toe dragged that right foot again...

[ColtRider]

Judging from your responses, it seems the Refs did not feel the first foot was still on the ground once possession and control of the football was made.  Because even if AJ's momentum made him step out of bounds, that alone might signal he wasn't in control enough to be established as a runner while in bounds.  So now he must maintain possession after (eventually) contacting the ground.  If he did, the it is certain the Refs never felt both original feet were in, just the second of them.  That's my guess.  And my Guess is it was too close on both feet being in in video replay (available at that time) for anybody to clearly overturn the ruling, yes?

 

Too bad he couldn't have toe dragged that right foot again...

Well, like you've stated here it does come down to a question. IMO, they go to review, it's ruled a TD. That's just what I saw.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Well, like you've stated here it does come down to a question. IMO, they go to review, it's ruled a TD. That's just what I saw.

 

Understood.  What does Falcon Fan see on replay?  Incomplete? Most importantly, what would Dean Blandino see on replay?  We'll never know because we didn't challenge.

[ColtRider]

Understood.  What does Falcon Fan see on replay?  Incomplete? Most importantly, what would Dean Blandino see on replay?  We'll never know because we didn't challenge.

True. Speaking of Falcon Fan, I switched over to "Falcoholic" on SB Nation yesterday when this happened. They were calling the game live. The broadcaster certainly stated that they were glad it wasn't reviewed & Pagano didn't throw the flag. They thought the Colts were going to challenge, and the way they saw the play, it could've gone Indianapolis' way by review.

I believe, Dean Blandino would've have seen contrite evidence to a TD. But, like you say, "We'll never know because we didn't challenge."

[ColtsLegacy]

I never saw the play, but I reiterate, the Falcons radio Broadcasters I was listening to at the time were fairly certain Pagano was going to throw his red flag. He never did and the only guess was Pagano didn't get a good enough personal view, and the booth people didn't get a solid replay view to radio down to him to challenge the play, or didn't radio down in time. Who really knows at this point.

since I did not see it, did AJ step out of bounds with his foot and then fall to the ground? or was it another part of his body that hit out of bounds first? And finally, did he maintain all the way through if it was another part of the body that hit out of bounds and not his foot?

Thanks for the help.

Go to post #48 in this thread. He caught it got both feet down and then stepped out and fell to the ground, while maintaining control.

[ColtsLegacy]

Judging from your responses, it seems the Refs did not feel the first foot was still on the ground once possession and control of the football was made. Because even if AJ's momentum made him step out of bounds, that alone might signal he wasn't in control enough to be established as a runner while in bounds. So now he must maintain possession after (eventually) contacting the ground. If he did, the it is certain the Refs never felt both original feet were in, just the second of them. That's my guess. And my Guess is it was too close on both feet being in in video replay (available at that time) for anybody to clearly overturn the ruling, yes?

Too bad he couldn't have toe dragged that right foot again...

That's the whole point. The refs didn't think the first foot was down, most of our own fans didn't think the first was down. If it was down, it was a TD. It was down. See post #48.

[akcolt]

It's not a catch he has to hold the ball for a certain time (like a couple of seconds) then get two feet

a couple of seconds then get 2 feet down??? What game are you watching? You don't realize it's a split second The slow motions don't even last a couple of seconds

[ricker182]

Easy for you to say from a fans perspective. All of us fans can sit here from behind our television and say this player should do this and should have done that. It's not just that easy though, when your the player having to execute.

Good receivers always drag their feet. They know where they are on the field.

[Caffrey]

This post made me replay it and look at is closer.  The catch was a TD, when he caught the ball, his right foot was still on the ground.  That was the question, because at real speed, 2nd step with the right foot is clearly out but the right foot is in when the ball is caught.  Still he could have dragged the foot to insure being called good.  The only reason this may be called out is, and it did not show this angle, is if he bobbled the ball, then it is out.  If he did not bobble it, the call was wrong and it should have been challenged.  On my DirecTV mode, it allows fraction forward with the movement of the ball approx every 2 feet as he catches it, he has the ball with his right foot in, for 3 frames.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

Go to post #48 in this thread. He caught it got both feet down and then stepped out and fell to the ground, while maintaining control.

 

But that type footage may not available to the Ref under the Hood or Dean Blandino at HQ in NY in real time.  It is what they see provided from the TV cameras at that moment.  I've found the less popular the matchup, the less cameras the networks commit to a game, thus it can limit the number of angles to view on particular plays.

 

I was listening to Falcons radio broadcast on SiriusXM, they thought for sure we would challenge.  We did not.

[ColtsLegacy]

But that type footage may not available to the Ref under the Hood or Dean Blandino at HQ in NY in real time. It is what they see provided from the TV cameras at that moment. I've found the less popular the matchup, the less cameras the networks commit to a game, thus it can limit the number of angles to view on particular plays.

I was listening to Falcons radio broadcast on SiriusXM, they thought for sure we would challenge. We did not.

That footage is straight from CBS. Those are replays they showed during the game. The Colts booth and the challenge booth would have had those angles and, likely, more.

[bluxco]

Maybe this is what happens as the players age.  I think a lot of players would've made the extra effort to give up his body and drag a toe.  Should have IMO.

AGREED 100z%------a toe drag would have been a score---but as old guys know sometimes mind works but reflexes dont

[ColtRider]

This post made me replay it and look at is closer.  The catch was a TD, when he caught the ball, his right foot was still on the ground.  That was the question, because at real speed, 2nd step with the right foot is clearly out but the right foot is in when the ball is caught.  Still he could have dragged the foot to insure being called good.  The only reason this may be called out is, and it did not show this angle, is if he bobbled the ball, then it is out.  If he did not bobble it, the call was wrong and it should have been challenged.  On my DirecTV mode, it allows fraction forward with the movement of the ball approx every 2 feet as he catches it, he has the ball with his right foot in, for 3 frames.

AJ didn't "bobble the ball". If you look at the sideline/end zone ref looking right at AJ's front, there is no call for non-control. There's no way this is not a TD. If reviewed, it's reversed from the call on the field to TD.

[Smonroe]

This post made me replay it and look at is closer.  The catch was a TD, when he caught the ball, his right foot was still on the ground.  That was the question, because at real speed, 2nd step with the right foot is clearly out but the right foot is in when the ball is caught.  Still he could have dragged the foot to insure being called good.  The only reason this may be called out is, and it did not show this angle, is if he bobbled the ball, then it is out.  If he did not bobble it, the call was wrong and it should have been challenged.  On my DirecTV mode, it allows fraction forward with the movement of the ball approx every 2 feet as he catches it, he has the ball with his right foot in, for 3 frames.  

 

I'm checking back in after finally watching the A22.  Their angle is a little different from the CBS feed.  They show both the broadcast feed, and then they show the all22, which is from the angle of the QB.  

 

I have to agree with this post.  It appears to me that when he catches the ball his right foot was on the ground in bounds.  And, like you said, it really comes down to his having possession.

 

 I happens so fast you can see how the refs missed it.  I'm not sure it would have been overturned.

 

Not that any of this matters at this point, but it's an interesting discussion.

[ColtsLegacy]

I'm checking back in after finally watching the A22. Their angle is a little different from the CBS feed. They show both the broadcast feed, and then they show the all22, which is from the angle of the QB.

I have to agree with this post. It appears to me that when he catches the ball his right foot was on the ground in bounds. And, like you said, it really comes down to his having possession.

I happens so fast you can see how the refs missed it. I'm not sure it would have been overturned.

Not that any of this matters at this point, but it's an interesting discussion.

I'm glad to see you've come around, brother.

If you check post #48 you'll see I took screenshots from the two CBS angles (borrowed a friend's all22) that are pretty definitive that he got both feet down. The only question would be if he possibly bobbled it, which I highly doubt from the action of the play (meaning Johnson's transition from the catch to the ground was smooth, with no hesitation).

I have yet to see the all22 angles on the play, though. I'll have to check them out.

[Smonroe]

I'm glad to see you've come around, brother.

If you check post #48 you'll see I took screenshots from the two CBS angles (borrowed a friend's all22) that are pretty definitive that he got both feet down. The only question would be if he possibly bobbled it, which I highly doubt from the action of the play (meaning Johnson's transition from the catch to the ground was smooth, with no hesitation).

I have yet to see the all22 angles on the play, though. I'll have to check them out.

 

Nice job.  The All22 give you the shot from the QB side.  I really don't think it would have been overturned.  The time from when the ball first is in his hands to when he lifts that foot has to be a tenth of a second.  They probably would say he didn't establish control in that time.

 

Good catch (by you) though!

 

I'm still more ticked about the hands to the face call on Vontae.  That was ridiculous.  He hardly did anything and it happened within the first five yards, and had nothing to do with the play.  That gave them the TD instead of the FG.

[ColtsLegacy]

Nice job.  The All22 give you the shot from the QB side.  I really don't think it would have been overturned.  The time from when the ball first is in his hands to when he lifts that foot has to be a tenth of a second.  They probably would say he didn't establish control in that time.

 

Good catch (by you) though!

 

I'm still more ticked about the hands to the face call on Vontae.  That was ridiculous.  He hardly did anything and it happened within the first five yards, and had nothing to do with the play.  That gave them the TD instead of the FG.

 

It may not have been overturned but you have to challenge that. A tenth of a second is all you need and after seeing the all22 angle from behind the QB he had possession immediately with absolutely no bobble.

 

Agreed, that call on Vontae was just terrible.

 

P.S. Dwayne Allen had no one within 15 yards of him on that play. He was wide open in the middle of the field. Poor guy.

[Smonroe]

It may not have been overturned but you have to challenge that. A tenth of a second is all you need and after seeing the all22 angle from behind the QB he had possession immediately with absolutely no bobble.

 

Agreed, that call on Vontae was just terrible.

 

P.S. Dwayne Allen had no one within 15 yards of him on that play. He was wide open in the middle of the field. Poor guy.

 

Allen is like the forgotten man, and if AC is out Allen may never go out for a pass.

[ColtsLegacy]

Allen is like the forgotten man, and if AC is out Allen may never go out for a pass.

 

Hell he may just play tackle in ACs place.

[VaAllDay757]

a couple of seconds then get 2 feet down??? What game are you watching? You don't realize it's a split second The slow motions don't even last a couple of seconds

he didn't show when he had complete possession of the ball....prime example evveryone just knew that the calvin johnson catch was a catch but it wasn't.....similar situation here....no catch

[ColtsBlueFL]

That footage is straight from CBS. Those are replays they showed during the game. The Colts booth and the challenge booth would have had those angles and, likely, more.

 

Blandino might have overturned it if it was sent to him.  But the Colts ( booth) didn't persuade Chuck to challenge, so it's on us.  Nobody else.  That was a play that could have been seen / called either way in real time.

[B~Town]

No TD call was right nothing to look at here .

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Some of you from the chat will remember me adamantly saying that was a catch, and I stand by that.

 

I ran the play back and ran it frame by frame (the view from behind AJ). As the ball disappears into Johnson's chest his first foot is still on the ground for roughly 3 more frames and then his next foot comes down clearly in bounds (the one foot everyone saw come down) and then his next step is OOB.

 

Now, unless Johnson was bobbling it, which I'm fairly certain he was not, that was a catch. And it was certainly close enough to warrant a challenge.

 

I forgot to record the game and accidentally changed the channel shortly after so I lost the play. Is it online somewhere or does anyone have it that can post it here?

 

What did everyone else see?

 

  The Zabruder film 2.0           

 

 

It was close with only 1 play I would have hoped he would drag his feet his effort left me   .  Close but no cigar .