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Precisely...at the end of the day the basis of all of our opinions boil down to that even those with which we don't agree.  So next time you try to say you don't know anything about blah, blah, blah...remember that.  Based on what I've read, heard and observed about Griggson I believe he is an egotistical, arrogant control freak. 

 I didn't know that you knew Grigson on a personal level and can make those judgments first hand.

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 I didn't know that you knew Grigson on a personal level and can make those judgments first hand.

Don't have to know him personally.  Can observe his demeanor during TV interviews, press conferences, etc. and can read or listen to the many news reports chronicling what is going on in Indy.  Now players are starting to express concerns over having their ideas/suggestions ignored by coaches due to forces beyond their control per the latest Holder article in the Indy Star.  Numerous articles refer to NFL sources reporting that Pagano is being directed to follow lineup decisions made by the front office.  That should be the coach's call.  

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Don't have to know him personally.  Can observe his demeanor during TV interviews, press conferences, etc. and can read or listen to the many news reports chronicling what is going on in Indy.  Now players are starting to express concerns over having their ideas/suggestions ignored by coaches due to forces beyond their control per the latest Holder article in the Indy Star.  Numerous articles refer to NFL sources reporting that Pagano is being directed to follow lineup decisions made by the front office.  That should be the coach's call.  

For Grigson to be what you said he was does mean you would have to know him on a personal level. If your going to be judgmental at someone over what you read through the media IMO is being narrow minded. To overlook the good things he has done is also being narrow minded. Because you don't like him their is nothing he could do that you wouldn't find fault with. Any sports media person can sit behind their keyboard and throw out stuff that is over hyped, dramatized and or taken out of context. Sports media is no different than me or you. They have opinions and that is their agendas. Do you really take anything the Indy Star puts out serious? For three seasons what Grigson was doing was working. Now that the Colts are slumping and have lost some games everyone has their magnifying glass out and they think it makes them an expert. We have covered just about any and every move that Irsay can make without knowing all the facts of what is going on. Someone shoves a camera and recorder in your face you don't know how your demeanor is going to show. How was Polains demeanor with the press? He would shout, get mad and argue but some don't think he was a bad GM because of that. You always have to keep in mind that sports media sells their story or articles. If they told the whole truth without all the added drama they wouldn't sell themselves. Grigson is the GM and naturally is going to have input into what is going on. The problem is some feel Grigson has too much input. I understand that but to judge all that on what sports media has put out is not getting the whole story correctly. Hearsay and hindsight are not facts that are cut and dried.

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Don't have to know him personally.  Can observe his demeanor during TV interviews, press conferences, etc. and can read or listen to the many news reports chronicling what is going on in Indy.  Now players are starting to express concerns over having their ideas/suggestions ignored by coaches due to forces beyond their control per the latest Holder article in the Indy Star.  Numerous articles refer to NFL sources reporting that Pagano is being directed to follow lineup decisions made by the front office.  That should be the coach's call.

I will say something that I said in another thread.

If Holders sources are players, then they must be getting their information about front office decisions from Pagano, since I doubt they directly to anybody any higher than that. They are told that their suggestions/ideas are not be taken, or they are not in the starting lineup, because of forces beyond their control.

That is the assertion.

Doesn't that kind of sound like that when a player presents a suggestion to a coach, or asks the coach why he is not starting, the coach says "I didn't make that decision, the other guy did."

It does to me.

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I will say something that I said in another thread.

If Holders sources are players, then they must be getting their information about front office decisions from Pagano, since I doubt they directly to anybody any higher than that. They are told that their suggestions/ideas are not be taken, or they are not in the starting lineup, because of forces beyond their control.

That is the assertion.

Doesn't that kind of sound like that when a player presents a suggestion to a coach, or asks the coach why he is not starting, the coach says "I didn't make that decision, the other guy did."

It does to me.

Yeah...It does sound as if the players are going directly to Pagano with ideas and then being told that he basically can't implement them because it's not his call.  They could be coming to him about ideas for plays or even requesting more playing time for themselves or for others widely perceived as more skilled than a current starter at a position.  Who is making the calls by most accounts point to Griggson but it is also possible that maybe he is simply doing the bidding of Irsay.  Who really knows?   But what we can be sure of is that it's a very dysfunctional situation right now and that dysfunction seems to be emanating from the top on down. 

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For Grigson to be what you said he was does mean you would have to know him on a personal level. If your going to be judgmental at someone over what you read through the media IMO is being narrow minded. To overlook the good things he has done is also being narrow minded. Because you don't like him their is nothing he could do that you wouldn't find fault with. Any sports media person can sit behind their keyboard and throw out stuff that is over hyped, dramatized and or taken out of context. Sports media is no different than me or you. They have opinions and that is their agendas. Do you really take anything the Indy Star puts out serious? For three seasons what Grigson was doing was working. Now that the Colts are slumping and have lost some games everyone has their magnifying glass out and they think it makes them an expert. We have covered just about any and every move that Irsay can make without knowing all the facts of what is going on. Someone shoves a camera and recorder in your face you don't know how your demeanor is going to show. How was Polains demeanor with the press? He would shout, get mad and argue but some don't think he was a bad GM because of that. You always have to keep in mind that sports media sells their story or articles. If they told the whole truth without all the added drama they wouldn't sell themselves. Grigson is the GM and naturally is going to have input into what is going on. The problem is some feel Grigson has too much input. I understand that but to judge all that on what sports media has put out is not getting the whole story correctly. Hearsay and hindsight are not facts that are cut and dried.

I hear your argument but you are assuming that I never liked Griggson.  I gave him a chance when he was first brought on.  However, he lost me with some of his decisions over the years (the Richardson bust and sticking with him for so long when he clearly was ineffective, failure to build an adequate O line to protect Luck despite his supposed experience in that area, refusal to invest more draft picks into the defense, over reliance on over the hill free agent retreads on defense and at wide receiver, and using our 1st round pick on a wide receiver when it was obvious (as is now apparent) that this team had much bigger issues.  The culmination of these things along with his arrogant demeanor swayed me against him.  His hand cuffing of Pagano by selecting his coaches and now making coaching decisions pertaining to lineups, etc. is the final straw.  He is crossing the line and needs to stay in his GM lane.  He needs to focus more on getting better players  here because he can barely handle that as it is.  He is creating a dysfunctional environment and has to go.

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Colts could certainly do a lot worse. He drafted Freeney, Bob Sanders and Mathis on defense. That's 3 star caliber impact players on defense. He also put a decent OLine around Manning for most of his career. Griggs pales in comparison.

 

Sanders was hurt a lot and as I've learned on this forum that is always the GM's fault, so cross him off your list.

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Sanders was hurt a lot and as I've learned on this forum that is always the GM's fault, so cross him off your list.

Maybe so but we don't win that Super Bowl without Bob Sanders...so I'll keep him on my list if you don't mind or even if you do.

 

Polian also has a Lombardi (the only championship in the Indy era) so add that on to his list of his accolades as well.  Was Polian perfect?  Heck no but he didn't try to coach the team.  He was far superior to Griggson as a GM.

 

That said...he has had his day and is perfectly content where he is.  Like I said...Bill Polian has nothing to prove to anyone. 

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I hear your argument but you are assuming that I never liked Griggson.  I gave him a chance when he was first brought on.  However, he lost me with some of his decisions over the years (the Richardson bust and sticking with him for so long when he clearly was ineffective, failure to build an adequate O line to protect Luck despite his supposed experience in that area, refusal to invest more draft picks into the defense, over reliance on over the hill free agent retreads on defense and at wide receiver, and using our 1st round pick on a wide receiver when it was obvious (as is now apparent) that this team had much bigger issues.  The culmination of these things along with his arrogant demeanor swayed me against him.  His hand cuffing of Pagano by selecting his coaches and now making coaching decisions pertaining to lineups, etc. is the final straw.  He is crossing the line and needs to stay in his GM lane.  He needs to focus more on getting better players  here because he can barely handle that as it is.  He is creating a dysfunctional environment and has to go.

If you want to hand pick nothing but negative while not seeing or giving credit to the positive there is nothing more to say. Like I said before. If your going to judge by hearsay and then use hindsight to judge, that's on you. After last season when Wayne went down so did Luck, Hilton and the whole offense. That is exactly why Dorsett was picked. A blind man can see that another receiver was needed. AJ was signed as a band aid till Dorsett got experience. In your opinion he is creating dysfunction. The GM position is not learned quickly and Grigson has done good things no matter if you don't want to give him credit. So I guess we have both spoke our opinions and carrying on with this debate is useless from here on out. Till next time! :)

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If you want to hand pick nothing but negative while not seeing or giving credit to the positive there is nothing more to say. Like I said before. If your going to judge by hearsay and then use hindsight to judge, that's on you. After last season when Wayne went down so did Luck, Hilton and the whole offense. That is exactly why Dorsett was picked. A blind man can see that another receiver was needed. AJ was signed as a band aid till Dorsett got experience. In your opinion he is creating dysfunction. The GM position is not learned quickly and Grigson has done good things no matter if you don't want to give him credit. So I guess we have both spoke our opinions and carrying on with this debate is useless from here on out. Till next time! :)

I have no problem acknowledging that Grigson has done some good.  He drafted Luck (although that was Irsay's decision), T.Y., traded for Vontae Davis, drafted Moncrief, found two good D linemen in Anderson and Parra with lower round draft picks last year,  and put together a team that was able to reach the AFC Championship game last year advancing one round further in each of his first 3 years.  Those are his positives in my opinion. This year the wheels are coming off....tensions that may have been muted by a level of success, have percolated during the off season and are bubbling over this season.  You may prefer to think all of this is media contrived.  I'm partial to thinking that where there is smoke...there is usually fire.  The onus has been put on Chuck unfairly when he was not given the full range of authority implicit in his position  to effectively do his job.  A GM who prevents his head coach from selecting his own staff and strips him of the power to make lineup decisions puts that coach in a position to ultimately fail.  When it starts to affect and frustrate players it becomes an even more serious problem. For all that Grigs has done well...this one thing alone is capable of sending this franchise spiraling into mediocrity if it is allowed to continue.  It is organizational dysfunction that must be eliminated. This coupled with my previously stated criticisms of Grigson sways me in favor of his eventual dismissal after all is considered.

 

And just to clarify...it's not the fact that a wide out was taken in April, it's where one was taken.  Truth be told Dorsett's impact was very minimal this year.  There is only so much help that can be expected from a rookie wide out as they need time to develop so why allocate our first round pick there?  But that's a whole other debate not to be entered into in this thread. 

 

As to the bolded...we at least agree on that Crazy1.  Till next time.  :blueshoe:

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