The Safeties Are an Issue

[throwing BBZ]

We have not had any major issues with the run until the Saints game. We are fine with Adams, Lowery, and Geathers. Colt Anderson was terrible however and I think him playing and still being here is an indictment of Guy and Mcdonald. Main issue is with this team is penalties and turnovers which are mainly the offense. Those things also affect the defense.

 

 More of a Pagano problem, he is the Head Coach and DB Guru!

 Who has he developed, and don`t say Davis, he came here with the expectation of becoming VG.

[zibby43]

I don't see how the alignment of the front 7 has anything to do with whether a safety is a good fit for the colts defense or not.  BTW, Collins played at Alabama, a team that largely runs with a 3-4 front.

 

First, go watch the all-22 tape of Alabama from 2012 until now and see how many times they line up in 3-4 vs. 4-3.

 

I don't care what they say they run, or what someone says their "base" defensive alignment is, because the tape does not lie and they line up in 4-3 a lot.  With 'bama, the 3-4 and the 4-3 are almost interchangeable. 

 

Second, I can give you one, obvious, glaring example of how safeties' skill sets matter when it comes to alignment/scheme (with respect to the Colts 3-4 and whether Collins fits better there or with the Giants' 4-3).

 

I'm surprised you interpreted/construed my statement that specifically, as if the alignment itself was the critical factor, and not the scheme utilized/paired with a particular alignment.

 

Anyway, on to the example . . .

 

With the Colts' 3-4 scheme, the safeties need to have almost interchangeable skill sets because of what they're asked to do in the defense and because of the looks they're asked to provide in the defense.  The Colts are constantly trying to keep the opposing offense/QB guessing in terms of who is going to be where (assignment-wise) and what the coverage is.

 

Furthermore, utilizing 2 safeties with similar skill sets (both better be able to cover and tackle) in the 3-4 means that an additional inside LB can reduce the responsibility of the SS for run support.

 

With how pass-happy the league is, wouldn't you want 2 top-notch cover safeties to handle the passing situations, with one more linebacker to handle run-stuffing duties?  That's exactly why the Colts' 3-4 scheme is designed the way it is.

 

And that is why the alignment AND the scheme matter when it comes to selecting safeties/LBs, etc. 

 

I mean, this is all pretty simple stuff man.

 

No one here would have liked to see Collins being left hung out to dry in tough coverage situations where he would have been exposed by burner WRs.  With the Giants' 4-3 scheme, they are less concerned about interchangeable safeties with similar skill sets.  They utilize a traditional FS and a traditional SS.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I'd rather have a player who can't cover, than a player who never sees the field. Collins has actually produced for NY, has Dorsett for us?

 

No.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000540029/Colts-Andrew-Luck-finds-Phillip-Dorsett-for-35-yard-TD

[theanarchist]

How can a guy who barely gets a chance to see the field produce anything? Collins is on the field all the time, Kendricks, Darby etc...

I think maybe folks are saying that the pick of a WR in general was bad. Maybe not the poster you quoted but others. My opinion at the time was that the pick was questionable but that I wouldn't complain too much about it hoping that some of the pressing needs on the OL or S were addressed soon after the pick...not the case. I think Dorsett will be a fine WR once he gets some experience tho. Most rookie WR's take a while to make an impact plus he was swimming against the current anyway with TY, Johnson and Moncrief all ahead of him on the depth chart.

[theanarchist]

 More of a Pagano problem, he is the Head Coach and DB Guru!

 Who has he developed, and don`t say Davis, he came here with the expectation of becoming VG.

Not to be argumentative but Davis' career in Miami was not what it has been here. Mike Adams did revive his career here also. But, I agree that the penalties and apparent lack of preparation to start games appears to be on Pagano.

 

I don't wanna be one of those guys who says, I didnt like Pagano as head coach in the first place, but I guess I'll be one of those guys . I wanted Bruce Arians as the head coach and was happy that we got him as the OC but I liked what Bruce would bring to a young Andrew Luck but unfortunately it only lasted one season. As  time went on with Chuck I warmed up to his personality as a coach, I like a guy who fires people up and speaks passionately but it's apparent to me that a change in the head coach needs to be made and with that a complete overhaul of the coaching staff.

[lollygagger8]

We also could've had Xavier Rhodes instead of Werner but alas: 

 

[ColtStronger]

Judging the Dorsett pick makes little sense after 7 games.

 

Independent from Dorsett, Collins would have been a boom or bust pick for us. No question he's a playmaker, but he can't cover, and our safeties have to cover. You can tell me about his stats all day long, but his tape tells a clear story of a player who is deficient in coverage. If you're going to change your scheme and allow him to prowl around, then great, but he isn't a fit with what this staff wants to do.

 

Kendricks was a consensus favorite. Too bad...

Just what I've said!  I said it then, and probably again...

 

Im happy he's here, but it's not what we needed.  Now he's even hurt.

 

IMO that should be strike 3 for Grigson!

[Superman]

Just what I've said!  I said it then, and probably again...

 

Im happy he's here, but it's not what we needed.  Now he's even hurt.

 

IMO that should be strike 3 for Grigson!

 

I'm not worried about what we presumably needed. That's not a draft issue, IMO.

 

But between Dorsett's development (which is fine, I think) and some other players who were on the board, the question is whether he was the best player available. Grigson's scouting obviously said yes, but that remains to be seen. There are definitely other players outperforming him so far. 

 

His injury is a separate issue.

[Jason_]

First, go watch the all-22 tape of Alabama from 2012 until now and see how many times they line up in 3-4 vs. 4-3.

 

I don't care what they say they run, or what someone says their "base" defensive alignment is, because the tape does not lie and they line up in 4-3 a lot.  With 'bama, the 3-4 and the 4-3 are almost interchangeable. 

 

 

Pretty much the same thing could be said of the Colts...at least up until this year, and we didn't really see the differences in scheme from last year to this year until preseason started.

 

 

 

I'm surprised you interpreted/construed my statement that specifically, as if the alignment itself was the critical factor, and not the scheme utilized/paired with a particular alignment.

 

 

I can only go with what you actually typed, and you left enough ambiguity, combined with the fact that I have not had many back and forth conversations with you to be familiar with your level of knowledge/understanding.  Basically, I've seen the 3-4 vs. 4-3 argument used far too many times in places where it does not belong, and to me this appeared to be yet another.  

And that is why the alignment AND the scheme matter when it comes to selecting safeties/LBs, etc. 

 

 

I definitely agree that both scheme and alignment are very important when considering DL and LBs.  I don't think that the front 7 alignment is nearly as important when referring to the secondary though, for which scheme/coverage is going to be the most important factor.  

 

 

No one here would have liked to see Collins being left hung out to dry in tough coverage situations where he would have been exposed by burner WRs.  With the Giants' 4-3 scheme, they are less concerned about interchangeable safeties with similar skill sets.  They utilize a traditional FS and a traditional SS.

 

 

And there are going to be 3-4 teams that do the same thing as far as coverage goes.  Your previous post made it seem, at least to me, that you were saying that Collins could not play in a 3-4 scheme and that is what I disagreed with.  There are 3-4 teams he could be highly successful with just like there are 4-3 teams that he would be a bad fit for.  

 

 

What I did do, that I admit is a huge pet peeve of mine when others do it, was to assume that I knew what your true meaning was instead of asking for additional clarification before sharing my opinion on what you said.  For that, I do apologize.

[jskinnz]

I wonder if Irsay cleans house can we get anything in return for Dorsett like in a trade. Because we have too many capable WR as it is.

 

That is not an informed opinion at all.

[NewColtsFan]

 More of a Pagano problem, he is the Head Coach and DB Guru!

 Who has he developed, and don`t say Davis, he came here with the expectation of becoming VG.

 

Who in the world is VG?

 

And of course Pagano gets credit for Davis.     He struggled in Miami,  that's why the Dolphins traded him,  and he's been very good to great for the Colts.

 

Pags also gets credit for Butler,  Adams and Lowery,  and he gets credit for Toler playing well when he's healthy.

[indyagent17]

I wouldn't say Dorsett is awful, kid has barely been used thanks to Pep. We probably won't see what he's capable off till next year.

This!

[Jason_]

Who in the world is VG?

 

And of course Pagano gets credit for Davis.     He struggled in Miami,  that's why the Dolphins traded him,  and he's been very good to great for the Colts.

 

Pags also gets credit for Butler,  Adams and Lowery,  and he gets credit for Toler playing well when he's healthy.

 

btw, I'm guessing VG was supposed to mean very good.  And yes, it does scare me that I'm starting to understand some of these people. 

 

 

lol