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Punt play fail (merge)


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Right here is proof that this is not Whalen's fault.....before, I said he shared in this, now, I think its hard to even say that.  Proof, if Pat is right, that this solely rests on Chuck Pagano's shoulders, 100 percent.

 

"Appearing on the "Bob and Tom Show" McAfee said Whalen was filling in on the play after Clayton Geathers was hurt earlier in the game. He said the wide receiver knew what the play was supposed to do, but had never practiced it."

 

 

 

In practice, with Geathers as center, the team added the second part of the plan, to try to get New England to jump offsides. But Whalen wasn't aware of the audible and didn't know he wasn't supposed to snap the ball.

 

 

"Griff has no idea that we're going to try to draw the guy offsides, 'cause in the play, it says if we get under center, snap it. So Colt Anderson is trying to draw a guy offsides to pick up an easy five yards. If not, we just don't snap it, we take the delay of game," McAfee said.

 

 

 

http://www.wthr.com/story/30307139/colts-punter-pat-mcafee-explains-failed-fourth-down-play

 

 

 

 

If you still feel this was Whalens fault 100%, than i have some ocean front property in Colorado that i'll sell you cheap................

 

 

Dudeski is right on this one. As a coach you expect your players to execute the play that was called and practiced. You do not expect them to snap a ball when first of all you do get the look you are looking for and second when Colt Anderson, at least according to Patriots players, tells you not once, not twice, but three times not to snap the ball. Would you blame Jim Harbaugh for calling for the punt that went terribly wrong and cost Michigan the game? The players did not execute the play, that is on them.

If you want to blame the coaches about something, blame them for the offense underachieving this year or how undisaplined the offense has looked. Three years ago the Colts were one of the least penalized teams, now not so much.

 

 

Read my above quote.................Griff did not practiced it and didnt even know the audible..........thats solely on the coaches.  There is no way in heck you can defend this saying its Griff's fault in this case.  He simply had no idea what to do, hints the panick.  That solely falls on the coaches and Pagano especially..........

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Read my above quote.................Griff did not practiced it and didnt even know the audible..........thats solely on the coaches.  There is no way in heck you can defend this saying its Griff's fault in this case.  He simply had no idea what to do, hints the panick.  That solely falls on the coaches and Pagano especially..........

I read it after I posted.

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They keep coming out with videos and tweets trying to explain why they did it. They look so pathetic. Just say it was stupid and one of the worst plays ever. This has to be killing Irsay that he is in charge of a circus.

 

This was merged into the preexisting topic on the punt play.

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Dudeski is right on this one. As a coach you expect your players to execute the play that was called and practiced. You do not expect them to snap a ball when first of all you do get the look you are looking for and second when Colt Anderson, at least according to Patriots players, tells you not once, not twice, but three times not to snap the ball. Would you blame Jim Harbaugh for calling for the punt that went terribly wrong and cost Michigan the game? The players did not execute the play, that is on them.

 

Nope.   The coach ran a play with one of the main pieces having NOT practiced this play at all.   He obviously never heard Anderson yell.   This is like if they would have sent in WR to play center, but never tell him what he's supposed to do.    Oh wait, that is exactly what happened.   Add to it that it was in the third quarter of a 6 point game.   Oh yeah, it's at home.   Don't forget it is against the Patriot.   One more, it is on your own 37 yard line.

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Nope.   The coach ran a play with one of the main pieces having NOT practiced this play at all.   He obviously never heard Anderson yell.   This is like if they would have sent in WR to play center, but never tell him what he's supposed to do.    Oh wait, that is exactly what happened.   Add to it that it was in the third quarter of a 6 point game.   Oh yeah, it's at home.   Don't forget it is against the Patriot.   One more, it is on your own 37 yard line.

When I posted I had not read that Whalen had not practiced the play. So that is on the coach that sent him out there, poor decision. However, how could Whalen not hear Anderson say don't snap it three times but multiple Patriots players hear it, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless Whalen has a hearing issue.

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They said the same about Caldwell too which is why he got the job in the first place! Dungy raved about how the players loved Caldwell. Irsay agreed and talked about familiarity on going with the decision to hire him as hc. Nice guy; subpar coach who had the luxury of having Peyton. Yeah he won a SB as the Raven oc which led to the Lions job but I saw on a interview with Flacco asking why it clicked with Jim instead of Cam as oc and Flacco said they kept the SAME playbook, ran the SAME plays but Caldwell allowed him to call the plays based on what he saw on the field. Now the Lions are a passive underachieving team that loves its hc....

 

You forgot the whole part about the Lions making the playoffs in Caldwell's first year -- whoops!

 

And you also forgot the whole part about the Lions letting their 3 top DT's, Suh, Fairley and another player walk out the door -- whoops!

 

And you forgot the part about Caldwell being the HC that took the Colts to a SB.     Oh, that's right,  they lost, so that must mean Caldwell is a terrible coach.......

 

OK.....   whatever....

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I've lost track of this thread because of the multiple merges but honestly this was a terrible call by the coaches.  It's on them.  Everyone that knows me on this board knows I'm reluctant to criticize our staff but at somepoint it becomes clear either you have it or not.  Maybe the staff will pull a miracle and make the adjustments to win it all....I just don't see the evidence to support our coaches being able to do that. 

 

If you can't even get the whole team to line up correctly (be on the line of scrimmage) and you don't even have the correct personnel on the field who makes the most important decision on the field (snapper/qb combo) then why in all hades do you call the play. WHY? They put their team in a position to fail...not succeed.  You call plays that have a chance to succeed...not a certainty to fail.  The difference between the Patriot staff and the Colts was so evident last night it wasn't funny.  It was clear there wasn't a huge difference on the field between the athletes.  The difference was in the staffs.  When was the last time Bill Bellicheck ran a fake play or a wierd formation that wasn't ran to the letter.  When have you ever seen a Patriot team come out of half time and didn't make adjustments to the game plan or exploit things they saw in the first half.  This is the difference between us and them.  Its also why you see very well coached teams like Baltimore and the Giants give the Pats problems. (talking when the Ravens/Giants had equal talent) They have coaches that prepare their team well...make adjustments...game plan....and most importantly don't put their team in bad situations. Of course we know Griff executed the play horribly but so did the line...and the coaches should have seen we were set up for a penalty regardless and NO ONE called time out. 

 

I just can't say how disappointed in the coaches I was the other night.  Not only did we pull that stunt but we didn't come out in the second half and make good adjustments to how NE started playing us.  You have to be able to see that they are going to take some things away from us in what we are doing and then look for ways to exploit that....I just don't think our team can do that on the fly.  It was a better gameplan starting out but the same ol thing showed up in the second half.....unprepared and out coached.....maybe we still lack a little talent...but I'm continuing to see we lack a lot of preparation and coaching.  Maybe there isn't a coach out there that can get us close on that since few are at Bill's level but its clear to me we aren't close enough.

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I was one of the few that thought the call was a good one.  Just poor execution.  After reading the explanation, I'm more convinced.  I can see them all trying to run off the field and NE trying to do the same, but the Colts stop and snap the ball.  That would have been awesome.

 

I do blame the coaches though for the execution.  First, they didn't run off the field, they sort of trotted.  As a fan, I knew they were going to line up in some crazy formation, not trying to get off the field.  If I could figure that out sitting on my couch, you know NE knew they weren't trying to get off the field.  Second, if Whalen didn't practice that play, they shouldn't have used it.  So again, to me it's execution, not the design of the play itself.  

Here's the problem.  The deception was doomed from the beginning.  If the O was going to go onto the field, they would not wait on the sideline for the punt team to come off.  Some players would be filtering on when others were coming off.  If that happened, then the defense might try to quickly substitute also.

 

The problem was, the O just stood there huddled on the sideline, so when the punt team all ran towards the sideline, it didn't fool anyone.  It looked like a shift rather than them coming off the field. 

 

Really, did anyone watching the play on TV or at the stadium think the punt team was coming off the field, or did it look like they were shifting.  I thought it looked like they were shifting.  And.....who would have thought that the O would go back onto the field and try to convert a 4th and 3 on their own 40 midway through the 3rd quarter being down by only 6.  Nobody...NOBODY....was deceived by the Colts.  It looked like a bizarre shift from the beginning, which it was. There was no deception at all, just bewilderment.

 

It was a stupid play.  It was stupidly designed at its root since the O just stood on the sidelines, and its stupidity being exacerbated by the fact it was a stupid time to run it, since nobody could fathom that a coach would go for 4th and 3 in those circumstances.  Nobody was thinking the O was going back on the field. 

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Here's the problem. The deception was doomed from the beginning. If the O was going to go onto the field, they would not wait on the sideline for the punt team to come off. Some players would be filtering on when others were coming off. If that happened, then the defense might try to quickly substitute also.

The problem was, the O just stood there huddled on the sideline, so when the punt team all ran towards the sideline, it didn't fool anyone. It looked like a shift rather than them coming off the field.

Really, did anyone watching the play on TV or at the stadium think the punt team was coming off the field, or did it look like they were shifting. I thought it looked like they were shifting. And.....who would have thought that the O would go back onto the field and try to convert a 4th and 3 on their own 40 midway through the 3rd quarter being down by only 6. Nobody...NOBODY....was deceived by the Colts. It looked like a bizarre shift from the beginning, which it was. There was no deception at all, just bewilderment.

It was a stupid play. It was stupidly designed at its root since the O just stood on the sidelines, and its stupidity being exacerbated by the fact it was a stupid time to run it, since nobody could fathom that a coach would go for 4th and 3 in those circumstances. Nobody was thinking the O was going back on the field.

Yep

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  1. I am okay with the spirit of a deceptive play call if it is based on observed trends by a team, or evidence from past observation of a trend
  2. To call a deceptive play in "hopes" of a desired reaction is a gamble, a hunch, a hope based on nothing but desperation really
  3. A better risk if you want to argue the "risk angle" is to keep your offense on the field and go for it on 4th and 3 with a hard count or snapping the ball.

 

Pagano and company appeared more aggressive throughout the game to that point, which I loved seeing, up and until that play where in my opinion that aggression crossed over into desperation.....even after 24 hours of explanation from the players and coach, that play falls firmly into point #2 for me, and I don't like #2 of the 3 options available.

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I've lost track of this thread because of the multiple merges but honestly this was a terrible call by the coaches. It's on them. Everyone that knows me on this board knows I'm reluctant to criticize our staff but at somepoint it becomes clear either you have it or not. Maybe the staff will pull a miracle and make the adjustments to win it all....I just don't see the evidence to support our coaches being able to do that.

If you can't even get the whole team to line up correctly (be on the line of scrimmage) and you don't even have the correct personnel on the field who makes the most important decision on the field (snapper/qb combo) then why in all hades do you call the play. WHY? They put their team in a position to fail...not succeed. You call plays that have a chance to succeed...not a certainty to fail. The difference between the Patriot staff and the Colts was so evident last night it wasn't funny. It was clear there wasn't a huge difference on the field between the athletes. The difference was in the staffs. When was the last time Bill Bellicheck ran a fake play or a wierd formation that wasn't ran to the letter. When have you ever seen a Patriot team come out of half time and didn't make adjustments to the game plan or exploit things they saw in the first half. This is the difference between us and them. Its also why you see very well coached teams like Baltimore and the Giants give the Pats problems. (talking when the Ravens/Giants had equal talent) They have coaches that prepare their team well...make adjustments...game plan....and most importantly don't put their team in bad situations. Of course we know Griff executed the play horribly but so did the line...and the coaches should have seen we were set up for a penalty regardless and NO ONE called time out.

I just can't say how disappointed in the coaches I was the other night. Not only did we pull that stunt but we didn't come out in the second half and make good adjustments to how NE started playing us. You have to be able to see that they are going to take some things away from us in what we are doing and then look for ways to exploit that....I just don't think our team can do that on the fly. It was a better gameplan starting out but the same ol thing showed up in the second half.....unprepared and out coached.....maybe we still lack a little talent...but I'm continuing to see we lack a lot of preparation and coaching. Maybe there isn't a coach out there that can get us close on that since few are at Bill's level but its clear to me we aren't close enough.

Agree with all of this. I think that single utterly disastrous and laughable play call shows Pagano is not the right man to get us there. The entire NFL is laughing at us over it for a reason because even the dumbest of coaches wouldn't have ran that play. Worst play call by a colts coach in my lifetime by far.
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I guess I didn't get my point across well enough.  I was trying to basically agree with you while pointing out the *ic coverage of it all ad nauseum by the media including the laughable political news people trying to weigh in as if they had a clue.  As I said on the bottom, I think they just wanted to see if they could catch NE off guard for once and of course they couldn't.  Sure, they didn't line up right, but the actual call wasn't such a tragedy as so many people who should know better suggested.  It was just very poorly executed and no worse than any other play where someone does something stupid to cause a turnover which is basically what it was.   I personally would have rather seen them just be aggressive and go for it with a much high chance if they were so inclined. We'd only stopped them once I think at that point from scoring so it was clear we needed to keep on scoring.  

 

On a different note, I WAS annoyed when they kept insisting that deferring to the second half was Belichick's sole idea blah blah blah.  I recall Manning doing it and always thought he was the first to regularly do it.  Perhaps Manning wasn't first, but they put the rule in so someone else other than Belichick was the first to think of the benefit to it.  Hell, I even do it when playing Madden. It is a no brainer and I am always surprised when a team takes the ball to start.   

There's a time to be aggressive & a time to smart. The game was still tight at that point we needed to punt the ball deep to get better field position. The last thing you wanna do is give your adversary less real estate to score a TD in. It was a boneheaded decision to even try it. Would we have tried it against Baltimore, Cincinnati, GB, or AZ under the same circumstances? Hades no. Why does Bill get in our team's head & under our skin? I don't understand this...He's a man not a machine & he is capable of making mistakes too. 

 

Yeah JPF, I get a little tired of Cris Collinsworth's love affair with all things NE too. I respect that franchise from it's legacy of Championship consistency, but I don't hang on their every policy or philosophy like it's gospel either. Jesus, I think Cris would buy the same brand of toilet paper as Belichick to wipe his caboose with if he knew what brand Bill preferred. LOL! Exactly, deferring the ball in the 1st quarter isn't mystical voodoo designed to guarantee team dominance but to listen to Collinsworth you'd swear it's some foreshadowing form of team clairvoyance. Ooh...Give me a break Cris. I like you as a broadcaster, but that's just ridiculous. 

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How many threads are gonna be made about that play?

Seriously people

It's how we grieve over a gut wrenching loss TK. Some people drink, some people pass the time with partners behind closed doors, & some people drive their cars at a high rate of speed. Translation: It's how we recover by overanalyzing how we shot ourselves symbolically in the darn foot yet again with the same foe across from us year after year. It's getting tedious & too familiar to suit me. 

 

Actually, you of all people should be the most happy over the duration of this thread or threads because it may mean Chuck's departure, Pep's departure, & Grig's departure once our season ends. I don't see Ryan being gone after he signed an extension though; l just can't envision that move from a financial vantage point personally.

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Yeah JPF, I get a little tired of Cris Collinsworth's love affair with all things NE too. I respect that franchise from it's legacy of Championship consistency, but I don't hang on their every policy or philosophy like it's gospel either. Jesus, I think Cris would buy the same brand of toilet paper as Belichick to wipe his caboose with if he knew what brand Bill preferred. LOL! Exactly, deferring the ball in the 1st quarter isn't mystical voodoo designed to guarantee team dominance but to listen to Collinsworth you'd swear it's some foreshadowing form of team clairvoyance. Ooh...Give me a break Cris. I like you as a broadcaster, but that's just ridiculous. 

Many teams have been dererring the ball till the second half. For a long time.    Heck I used to do it when possible in Super Tecmo Bowl.  

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Agree with all of this. I think that single utterly disastrous and laughable play call shows Pagano is not the right man to get us there. The entire NFL is laughing at us over it for a reason because even the dumbest of coaches wouldn't have ran that play. Worst play call by a colts coach in my lifetime by far.

I don't want to say its JUST that call but I just feel at my core that these coaches are good coaches..smart...disciplined coaches....great with players...but they just aren't great at making adjustments and changing game plans and exploiting weaknesses on the field. I've seen it time and time again that we either come out flat or with a bad plan or we fail to make ingame adjustments.  This trick play though just goes to show that they don't respond well to spontaneous situations. You have to realize whats wrong when its happening (players lined up wrong)...wrong personell...what the other team is doing to you...time management...etc etc and make decisions quickly and properly to maximize your chances to win. I love our coaches as people...I just don't know if they have those game management skills I'll call it.  For almost 3 years were seeing things and I'm just not sure our staff is going to improve or can take it to the next level.  In my opinion the team has better talent than it ever has (not to say it couldn't be better or some things haven't declined while other areas got better) but the coaching/decision making/play calling just hasn't...and those are the same guys. I hope just like everyone else they can improve...I'm rooting for them...but I just don't have the confidence it will happen.

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I don't want to say its JUST that call but I just feel at my core that these coaches are good coaches..smart...disciplined coaches....great with players...but they just aren't great at making adjustments and changing game plans and exploiting weaknesses on the field. I've seen it time and time again that we either come out flat or with a bad plan or we fail to make ingame adjustments.  This trick play though just goes to show that they don't respond well to spontaneous situations. You have to realize whats wrong when its happening (players lined up wrong)...wrong personell...what the other team is doing to you...time management...etc etc and make decisions quickly and properly to maximize your chances to win. I love our coaches as people...I just don't know if they have those game management skills I'll call it.  For almost 3 years were seeing things and I'm just not sure our staff is going to improve or can take it to the next level.  In my opinion the team has better talent than it ever has (not to say it couldn't be better or some things haven't declined while other areas got better) but the coaching/decision making/play calling just hasn't...and those are the same guys. I hope just like everyone else they can improve...I'm rooting for them...but I just don't have the confidence it will happen.

Yes.  Quick thinking is not their strong suit.  I think their perception is lacking too.

 

Given all the statements that have come out since the play, I'm convinced Pags didn't know Griff was the center until after the play was over. 

 

Knowing who was going to be the center in that play, and alterations made to the play during practice, might have influenced the coach's decision to call that play in that situation.

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I am reading a lot of 20:20 hindsight.

If play goes bad because a player took initiative - "what an *! He should just follow the play that was called"

If a play goes bad because a player went by the playbook - "what an *! He should have more sense and not follow the play that was called based on the situation"

The common denominator is the play going bad = blame someone

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I am reading a lot of 20:20 hindsight.

If play goes bad because a player took initiative - "what an *! He should just follow the play that was called"

If a play goes bad because a player went by the playbook - "what an *! He should have more sense and not follow the play that was called based on the situation"

The common denominator is the play going bad = blame someone

It's more a case of a bad play at a bad time to use it.  

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I am reading a lot of 20:20 hindsight.

If play goes bad because a player took initiative - "what an *! He should just follow the play that was called"

If a play goes bad because a player went by the playbook - "what an *! He should have more sense and not follow the play that was called based on the situation"

The common denominator is the play going bad = blame someone

when they started the fake before they got lined up I was asking what are they doing? Just punt.

So while I agree there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight here in this case there was a lot of 20/20 vision as it was happening.

If you truly want to go for it there either send Luck and the offense out there or run McAfee on a fake. That formation had no chance from the word go. It was a bad call made only to look worse when you found out maybe the most important player in the play had never practiced it before.

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when they started the fake before they got lined up I was asking what are they doing? Just punt.

So while I agree there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight here in this case there was a lot of 20/20 vision as it was happening.

If you truly want to go for it there either send Luck and the offense out there or run McAfee on a fake. That formation had no chance from the word go. It was a bad call made only to look worse when you found out maybe the most important player in the play had never practiced it before.

This is correct

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