The Future of Caldwell and the Polians [Mega-merge]

[ace_6900]

that is my point by that time all the good coaches {fisher} will be gone

[Moose Of Woe]

Soon, precious...very soon...

http://padawanjenn.tripod.com/LotR/rotk/gollum3_lrg.jpg

[JColts72]

How could Irsay say new direction, but still has Caldwell around-What GM in their right mind will want to retain him? So the GM will have the final say on a coach and not Irsay?

[Moose Of Woe]

How could Irsay say new direction, but still has Caldwell around-What GM in their right mind will want to retain him? So the GM will have the final say on a coach and not Irsay?

Irsay's heart may just not be in it to fire him. While Polian was a long time acquaintance he has a completely different personality than someone as, well, nice as Caldwell.

Regardless, the GM will very, very likely handle Caldwell swiftly.

[JColts72]

So his heart was into it with the Polians or just does not want Caldwell fired on Black Monday-How aboout Black Tuesday instead?

[Moose Of Woe]

So his heart was into it with the Polians or just does not want Caldwell fired on Black Monday-How aboout Black Tuesday instead?

Like I said, two different people...two different personalities. Biiiiig difference.

Again, the axe will come. With Polian Irsay was the only one who could do it. With Caldwell, it's up to the new GM apparently and it's a pretty safe bet as to what they'll want.

[ColtJ82]

that is my point by that time all the good coaches {fisher} will be gone

If they were really that good they would already have a job.

[LUVTHESHOE]

This goes hand in hand with all those who considered Caldwell a puppet.

So if Caldwell was just a puppet - hired purely because he wasn't a threat to Polian - how do you explain the fact that Polian is gone and Caldwell is still here?

He has never been more of a puppet, he is left to dangle by a string. I don't know why he would want to stay. That presser was not a ringing endorsement, it was basically I don't want to fire you I will let the new GM do it.

[JColts72]

So did the Rams GM fire their coach and then fired himself? Ram Owner took them both out today-Don't fall for Irsay's New ERA line if Caldwell remains a coach here.

[MAC]

I wasn't referring to you, MAC. And if you'll note, I said I didn't read the thread. I didn't even know you were in this talk. Repeat - I didn't read the thread. The people I referred to are the flip-floppers. I don't know if you are or not.....but from what I've seen you're not. If someone was a Polian supporter, awesome. They ain't got time to support the owner's decision now though. Don't want to hear it.

Any doubt about who I address on here, directly, should be removed because I always quote folks or send them a pm. Chill. We're friends on here.

No harm, no foul my friend. It's just that there are enough people on here who are disturbingly joyous about the change as it is without resorting to inflaming those who happen to like Polian. Whether directed at me or not, that was about as welcome as an "I told you so" thread.

I have long been a supporter of Polian, but I will embrace the changes and the future with as much optimism as anyone. The veracity of my opinions is of considerable less importance to me than the success of the team.

I do want to respond to your Polian sentiments however.

He built the Buffalo team when there was no salary cap yet went 0-4 in SBs.

No one else had a salary cap either, yet no other franchise has ever gone to four consecutive super bowls.

He built the Carolina team with instant splash but also sharp crash and prolonged losing years and with no titles.

The prolonged losing was after he was fired by an owner who had an even bigger ego than he did. Doesn't taint the accomplishment of being the fastest expansion team to a Championship game ever - which was apparently the goal of the owner in hiring him. If there was a long-term price to be paid, well you reap what you sow.

He built the Indy team around one player with no plan for winning beyond the Manning formula.

As likely would any other GM blessed with a talent such as Manning. You'd be a fool not to maximize his abilites, but it comes with a price.

We've beat up on an expansion division for years....

Perhaps regarding the Texans, but the Titans and Jaguars have had a fair measure of success. There have been multiple years where this was arguable the strongest division in the entire league. Meanwhile the Patriots have been feasting on three much less successful teams for the same time period, the Steelers have had the Ravens and two jokes, the AFC west has often been absolutely horrid (with the team at the top changing frequently). And the AFC in it's entirety was dramatically superior to the NFC for an extended period of time.

and while Manning's record may be stellar against these weak foes his winning percentage is just a shade over .500 vs. our old AFC East rivals.

EXTREMELY missleading. A very quick scan through shows a 13-12 record, but two of the loses were throw-aways at the end of 09, four of the loses were in the playoffs (which by definition are NOT weak foes), and five of the others were against NE. In fact the ONLY remaining loss was against Miami way back in 2002, and they won the division!

We're 9-10 in the postseason with plenty of one&dones and 1-1 in SBs.

And since their last Super Bowl victory the Patriots are 5-5 in the playoffs, with two one and dones, and are 0-1 in the SB. The Colts record over that same time period is virtually identicaly, but 1-1 in the SB. And the Patriots are also overly dependent on one player at this point. Is Belichick getting fired anytime soon?

He has demonstrated poor cap management,

Debatable, considering the starting point of having the highest paid player in the league on the roster. Perhaps overpaid to keep some of our guys, but more than balanced by the refusal to overpay for other teams FAs.

been very cold to local Indy media,

Lousy for puplic perception, but not of great importance - especially considering the fact that with the notable exception of Mike Chappel, many appear to richly deserve it.

and contradicted himself more and more in recent times instead of simply owning his mistakes. His best years have passed him by, clearly.

I've seen him acknowledge mistakes. People talk about contradictions frequently on here (and Kravitz and BBS fabricate them for fun and profit - speaking of character issues) , but I've only noticed one example, and that involved recalling an inconsequencial event from a decade previously. It's entirely possibly that his memory is starting to go - which is a perfectly suitable reason for pushing him out the door - but the insinuations that his character or ethics are questionable are simply rubbish.

I fail to see any real legacy left by Polian anywhere he's been.

The fans of Buffalo and Carolina (not to mention Montreal, Winnipeg, and Indy) might disagree with you. More to the point, who would you rather have had in his place? Give me a list of his peers who have done better - including the criteria which you have mentioned above. I assure you that it's an extremely short list.

We could have done better over the years

Extremely questionable and impossible to know for sure. A different GM might have missed on all the other all-pros that Polian drafted, or focused on defense to the point that Peyton might not have even developed into a perenial MVP candidate in the first place.

and I can only hope that if Manning returns we can capitalize on his remaining years as to not squander one of the best talents of our generation.

On that I will whole-heartedly agree.

And I'd also say that if Manning had played this year I am 100% confident that we would have won 10-13 games and be talking about the playoffs right now, instead of Polians supposed failures. There'd be a lot less grumpy people out there. I'll also add that perhaps the Colts biggest problem in recent years has been an unusually high percentage of injuries. If anyone can prove that that is the fault of the GMs philosophy, than these arguments would have more credance - but that's impossible to do. To make a long story short (a little late I'll admit), it's highly unusual for a GM to last 14 years, and Polian is getting old, and he's an ornery SOB who rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I have NO problem with the team changing directions. However to trivialize what he has done for this franchise makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Do you think that Irsay was lying when he spoke of this topic today, called him a hall-of-famer, assured him a place in the ring of honor, and mentioned hugs and tears? He was named NFL exexecutive of the year SIX times for crying out loud. 20/20 hindsite is a wonderful thing, but I question the necessity after one of the most successful periods by any team in the history of the league. As much as I'm looking foward to the future, he will be missed.

[MAC]

He has never been more of a puppet, he is left to dangle by a string. I don't know why he would want to stay. That presser was not a ringing endorsement, it was basically I don't want to fire you I will let the new GM do it.

No, it was I'd like very much for him to remain the coach, but I'm not going to let his presense be an obstacle to the hiring of the right GM (or "big name" coach) who happens to not want him.

I wouldn't be suprised at all if he remains - particularly if Manning is healthy. Caldwell has been working with Manning in one capacity or another for most of his career. Irsay values continuity, and would be unlikley to do something that might jepardize Mannings ability to continue to be successful. For all we know Irsay loves everything about the structure that Polian put in place, he just doesn't believe that Chris is the one who should be filing the roster. As many here who complain about Polian have stated, the GM isn't supposed to control the coach, just procure him talent. Why blow up the entire system, just get a GM who can do a better job.

Moot point of course if Manning retires. At that point I would expect all the older FAs to be released, and if you want a GM to go in a completely different direction - including coach - that would be the time. That's one of the things that makes this so difficult. I don't envy Irsay his decision.

[everybodysgotone]

No harm, no foul my friend. It's just that there are enough people on here who are disturbingly joyous about the change as it is without resorting to inflaming those who happen to like Polian. Whether directed at me or not, that was about as welcome as an "I told you so" thread.

I have long been a supporter of Polian, but I will embrace the changes and the future with as much optimism as anyone. The veracity of my opinions is of considerable less importance to me than the success of the team.

This ^ is all that's important to me, MAC.

The rest of it is difference in viewpoint that's been discussed into the ground and I'll not revisit any further or copy/paste tons of old work or data gathering out of respect and because it's all history now. Moving ahead is good for all of us. Here's to Bill Polian's early years and helping put Indy on the map......and the future.

[deedub75]

No harm, no foul my friend. It's just that there are enough people on here who are disturbingly joyous about the change as it is without resorting to inflaming those who happen to like Polian. Whether directed at me or not, that was about as welcome as an "I told you so" thread.

I have long been a supporter of Polian, but I will embrace the changes and the future with as much optimism as anyone. The veracity of my opinions is of considerable less importance to me than the success of the team.

I do want to respond to your Polian sentiments however.

All things must end. He is part of the Colts past now. I think Irsay put up with him because the team was winning but it made no sense for Irsay to allow Bill to pass down the GM spot to his son like it was an antique watch. With that being said, I am greatful to Bill for drafting Peyton, Edge, Harrison, etc.

And I'd also say that if Manning had played this year I am 100% confident that we would have won 10-13 games and be talking about the playoffs right now, instead of Polians supposed failures. There'd be a lot less grumpy people out there. I'll also add that perhaps the Colts biggest problem in recent years has been an unusually high percentage of injuries. If anyone can prove that that is the fault of the GMs philosophy, than these arguments would have more credance - but that's impossible to do. To make a long story short (a little late I'll admit), it's highly unusual for a GM to last 14 years, and Polian is getting old, and he's an ornery SOB who rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I have NO problem with the team changing directions. However to trivialize what he has done for this franchise makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Do you think that Irsay was lying when he spoke of this topic today, called him a hall-of-famer, assured him a place in the ring of honor, and mentioned hugs and tears? He was named NFL exexecutive of the year SIX times for crying out loud. 20/20 hindsite is a wonderful thing, but I question the necessity after one of the most successful periods by any team in the history of the league. As much as I'm looking foward to the future, he will be missed.

[everybodysgotone]

I don't envy Irsay his decision.

Exactly. It's heavy lifting, especially when you're invested in people, as Jim Irsay is being an honorable business owner. But things change. None of this diminishes Bill's early years. Irsay is doing the work only an owner can do.....and he has much larger comittments to honor to many more thousands of working people and their families, etc., and on a much larger time table than any GM or player's career will last. It isn't an easy position to be in and not everyone is capable of doing it. He's still a relatively new owner having taken over the reigns in the not too distant past. He's stepping out and defining the team/attempting to build legacy the best he can while trusting his years of discernment in/around the team. I applaud him for that. He struck a great chord with me during the presser when he commented about how the team never melted down into arguing and dissention this year - crediting the team leaders (players) as well as Polian and Caldwell. I like our situation moving ahead with the #1, CBA sealing things for a decade, and action-now approach while the league is evolving.

[JCPatriot]

Marty Schottenheimer got canned after a 14-2 season with the Chargers.

I love it when people bring up examples like this for justification. That has worked out really well for the Chargers, hasn't it?

He built the Buffalo team when there was no salary cap yet went 0-4 in SBs.

He built the Carolina team with instant splash but also sharp crash and prolonged losing years and with no titles.

He built the Indy team around one player with no plan for winning beyond the Manning formula. We've beat up on an expansion division for years....and while Manning's record may be stellar against these weak foes his winning percentage is just a shade over .500 vs. our old AFC East rivals. We're 9-10 in the postseason with plenty of one and dones and 1-1 in SBs. He has demonstrated poor cap management, been very cold to local Indy media, and contradicted himself more and more in recent times instead of simply owning his mistakes. His best years have passed him by, clearly.

Why does everyone that is anti-Polian feel the need to explain away his accomplishments in some way? He built the Buffalo team that went to four consecutive Super Bowls......but he did it when there was no salary cap as if that somehow diminishes it. Ask our resident Bills fans how they feel about Polian. That was pretty much the only taste of success that they have had over the past 30 years.

You talk about prolonged losing years in Carolina, but he was only there for a few years. He was trying to get that team off the ground, and the startup was similar to first years with the Colts. A quick spike followed by a decline. It's hard to really judge his impact there because it was an expansion team and he didn't stick around for very long, but they did go to an NFC Championship game in that time.

Has he won a lot of Super Bowls? No. His teams are 1-5 in Super Bowls over his career. Still, how many GMs have won a lot of Super Bowls? There aren't very many. How many GMs have built teams that went to 6 Super Bowls? There aren't very many. He may not be the best GM out there and there is definitely room for improvement. The team has been in a state of decline for the past few seasons, and you could argue that poor drafting is a big part of the reason for that decline. I just don't understand the need to sweep his accomplishments under the rug when making those points. Those points stand on their own.

[everybodysgotone]

Why does everyone that is anti-Polian feel the need to explain away his accomplishments in some way? He built the Buffalo team that went to four consecutive Super Bowls......but he did it when there was no salary cap as if that somehow diminishes it. Ask our resident Bills fans how they feel about Polian. That was pretty much the only taste of success that they have had over the past 30 years.

You talk about prolonged losing years in Carolina, but he was only there for a few years. He was trying to get that team off the ground, and the startup was similar to first years with the Colts. A quick spike followed by a decline. It's hard to really judge his impact there because it was an expansion team and he didn't stick around for very long, but they did go to an NFC Championship game in that time.

Has he won a lot of Super Bowls? No. His teams are 1-5 in Super Bowls over his career. Still, how many GMs have won a lot of Super Bowls? There aren't very many. How many GMs have built teams that went to 6 Super Bowls? There aren't very many. He may not be the best GM out there and there is definitely room for improvement. The team has been in a state of decline for the past few seasons, and you could argue that poor drafting is a big part of the reason for that decline. I just don't understand the need to sweep his accomplishments under the rug when making those points. Those points stand on their own.

If you're confused on any points I've made and/or aren't an otherwise good historian, read up or do a search on my posts if yer gonna quote me directly. What's above here is the lemon next to the prior discussion pie and I'm not gonna rehash beyond this because it's pointless. The Polian era in Indy is over. Period. We're moving forward now. I'll give credit to Polian for his early years here, as I always have, and for putting Indy on the map. You might as well start rolling with change and looking at it as honestly and as unbiased as you can based on merit alone or you'll be a sourpuss of a fan in the months and years ahead. Even the owner of the team is doing this - it's a wise policy.

[buccolts]

Really really REALLY as in disbelief, not commenting on your ego/an attack on your person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wNVSMlly_Q&feature=related

Still, fair enough.

PS: The best part is :20 seconds in.

....

Also REALLY INFINITY!

Well, I didn't call you a Frog Face Loser

I take it that's a regular schtick for that guy?

To our discussion, some of the complaints made about Caldwell can also apply to guys like Reid, Smith, etc.

Those fans don't know everything about Caldwell, and we don't know everything about those coaches.

Fans concentrate on the woes of their own teams, and don't pay that close of attention to coaches of other teams.

Look, I'm never going to convince you, and I'm not looking to be convinced of anything, so I'll drop it here and stop boring the masses.

[MAC]

Exactly. It's heavy lifting, especially when you're invested in people, as Jim Irsay is being an honorable business owner. But things change. None of this diminishes Bill's early years. Irsay is doing the work only an owner can do.....and he has much larger comittments to honor to many more thousands of working people and their families, etc., and on a much larger time table than any GM or player's career will last. It isn't an easy position to be in and not everyone is capable of doing it. He's still a relatively new owner having taken over the reigns in the not too distant past. He's stepping out and defining the team/attempting to build legacy the best he can while trusting his years of discernment in/around the team. I applaud him for that. He struck a great chord with me during the presser when he commented about how the team never melted down into arguing and dissention this year - crediting the team leaders (players) as well as Polian and Caldwell. I like our situation moving ahead with the #1, CBA sealing things for a decade, and action-now approach while the league is evolving.

He was very impressive in the news conference for sure. I've considered him to be a great owner, but his occasional flackyness (and the memories of his youth misspent as possibly the worst general manager in the history of professional sports) have occasionally raised doubts in my mind. Perhaps it's because he bears too much of a resemblance in every conceivable way to the owner of the NY Knicks - who despite an incredible desire to win and willingness to spend money has destroyed the franchise in front of our eyes.

In other words, part of me suspects that perhaps the hiring of Bill Polian was the one great personnel decision he has made in his life, leading to ALL of the teams success since then. I'm being facetious, but until this has finished playing out, anything is possible. That's as unsettling as it is exciting.

[mouthofsouth]

that is my point by that time all the good coaches {fisher} will be gone

You do not know that. You don't know that behind the scenes Irsay may have his new GM all lined up, and that guy may already have contacted the one he wants as his coach. One step at a time.

[everybodysgotone]

He was very impressive in the news conference for sure. I've considered him to be a great owner, but his occasional flackyness (and the memories of his youth misspent as possibly the worst general manager in the history of professional sports) have occasionally raised doubts in my mind. Perhaps it's because he bears too much of a resemblance in every conceivable way to the owner of the NY Knicks - who despite an incredible desire to win and willingness to spend money has destroyed the franchise in front of our eyes.

In other words, part of me suspects that perhaps the hiring of Bill Polian was the one great personnel decision he has made in his life, leading to ALL of the teams success since then. I'm being facetious, but until this has finished playing out, anything is possible. That's as unsettling as it is exciting.

Flaky. No doubt. He's wild out of the strike zone sometimes but at least it's not in a Jerry Jones kinda way, . In hindsight, as a new owner in 1998 after having the team passed to him by his father he probably needed an instant splash/controlling type of GM exactly like Polian. Now....it looks like he's grown up a bit as an owner and has reclaimed his team to an extent. I'm going to trust in his judgment because his decision tree back in '98 was good and served it's purpose. I saw smonroe say he's sure this is the job in the NFL to be had and I agree. But you're right......let's see how this plays out and what he gives us. In the end, I think we'll all be pleased.

[MAC]

Flaky. No doubt. He's wild out of the strike zone sometimes but at least it's not in a Jerry Jones kinda way, . In hindsight, as a new owner in 1998 after having the team passed to him by his father he probably needed an instant splash/controlling type of GM exactly like Polian. Now....it looks like he's grown up a bit as an owner and has reclaimed his team to an extent. I'm going to trust in his judgment because his decision tree back in '98 was good and served it's purpose. I saw smonroe say he's sure this is the job in the NFL to be had and I agree. But you're right......let's see how this plays out and what he gives us. In the end, I think we'll all be pleased.

You make a lot of sense, and I do feel very comfortable with the guy. It's 100 times better than having an owner like Jerry Jones or Al Davis (or Robert Irsay, or James Dolan who I mentioned).

In case you've never paid attention, Dolan got his team from his father, is three years older than Irsay, same first name, has curly hair and mustache/beard, considers himself a rock musician, has had problems with booze and whatnot, and tends to make foolish player/personnel decisions that harm the team for years at a time. Disturbingly similar - it's just that he's never grown up. Irsay made his player moves 20+ years ago, while Dolan is doing it NOW. It's hard not to be aware of him without feeling some trepidation about his doppelganger.

[JCPatriot]

You might as well start rolling with change and looking at it as honestly and as unbiased as you can based on merit alone or you'll be a sourpuss of a fan in the months and years ahead. Even the owner of the team is doing this - it's a wise policy.

I like to think that I'm pretty honest and unbiased. I'm definitely not a sourpuss. I went through that phase when I was younger and much less mature. I hated Polian when they first brought him in and he gutted the team. The '95 Colts were pretty much the only glimmer of success that I had ever experienced as a Colts fan, and within two years everybody associated with that team was gone. Harbaugh, Faulk, Siragusa, Marchibroda.....all gone. These weren't my Colts anymore. In hindsight, I understand that it was the right decision. If I was more mature at the time, I would have realized it then. I was too emotionally attached, though. I have come around in the meantime.

I'm not surprised that Irsay decided to cut ties with Polian. Well, I take that back. I am surprised, but I'm not shocked. Irsay has been hinting at big changes for a while now. I saw this as something that could possibly happen, but if I had to make a prediction I didn't think that it would. There are several legitimate reasons to argue that it was time for a change. The most compelling is that the team has steadily declined since the most recent Super Bowl team, and I firmly believe that a lack of impact from early-round draft picks over the past four years are a big part of the reason why. That either falls back on the GM for not evaluating talent well or the coaching staff for not effectively developing that talent.

My only point was that these arguments as to why firing Polian was the right thing to do can stand on their own merit. There is no need to try to knock down his prior accomplishments (which are legitimate accomplishments) to make that point. Maybe that's not what you're doing, but when you lay out his accomplishments and then follow each one with a "...but this is why that wasn't really significant..." then that's what it looks like. Maybe it would be apparent from your past posts that this was not the intent, but the notion that I should research your previous posts before quoting and responding to something that you write is....well, a tad ridiculous.

[everybodysgotone]

You make a lot of sense, and I do feel very comfortable with the guy. It's 100 times better than having an owner like Jerry Jones or Al Davis (or Robert Irsay, or James Dolan who I mentioned).

In case you've never paid attention, Dolan got his team from his father, is three years older than Irsay, same first name, has curly hair and mustache/beard, considers himself a rock musician, has had problems with booze and whatnot, and tends to make foolish player/personnel decisions that harm the team for years at a time. Disturbingly similar - it's just that he's never grown up. Irsay made his player moves 20+ years ago, while Dolan is doing it NOW. It's hard not to be aware of him without feeling some trepidation about his doppelganger.

I wasn't aware of all the Dolan circumstances....

One thing I think makes a difference is the smaller market the Colts are in. It demands a different approach when it comes to commitment I believe, and Irsay seems to be a good fit for the city/region. He learned much from the old Baltimore days, I'm sure, and the original deal including the joint Lucas Oil Stadium-Indiana Convention Center was very sound for both sides including a lengthy team lease on the facility. If I remember right, it runs through 2034 and one provision is the Colts are forbidden to play their homegames elsewhere or negotiate a relocation. Tens of billions of dollars will be generated over this time and Irsay is going to be highly motivated to deliver a winner for all the right reasons. What I'd like to see is shallower troughs through the years and better postseason play = consistency and a more balanced team. With that will come the desired continuity. I believe Irsay will move the team into better days.

[MAC]

I hated Polian when they first brought him in and he gutted the team. The '95 Colts were pretty much the only glimmer of success that I had ever experienced as a Colts fan, and within two years everybody associated with that team was gone. Harbaugh, Faulk, Siragusa, Marchibroda.....all gone. These weren't my Colts anymore. In hindsight, I understand that it was the right decision. If I was more mature at the time, I would have realized it then. I was too emotionally attached, though. I have come around in the meantime.

That's funny, I've never heard anyone express that before. It strikes a cord with me because when I was a kid Irsay Sr bought the team and brought in Joe Thomas who gutted the team in the space of weeks (two years removed from a SB victory, with players who had played a prominent role in some of the best teams in the league for many years).

Not long after that Bert Jones came along (it's amazing what "stinking" does for your draft prospects), and Lydel Mitchell, and the sack pack, and life as a Colts fan was good again. I didn't worry so much about the "old" Colts. (Well, except for maybe Ted Hendricks - oh the PAIN).

The funny thing is, I never came around and forgave them as you have. They were both misserable jerks who couldn't be gone soon enough for my liking. Thomas took a few years, Irsay obviously a few decades. Not soon enough.

[everybodysgotone]

I like to think that I'm pretty honest and unbiased. I'm definitely not a sourpuss. I went through that phase when I was younger and much less mature. I hated Polian when they first brought him in and he gutted the team. The '95 Colts were pretty much the only glimmer of success that I had ever experienced as a Colts fan, and within two years everybody associated with that team was gone. Harbaugh, Faulk, Siragusa, Marchibroda.....all gone. These weren't my Colts anymore. In hindsight, I understand that it was the right decision. If I was more mature at the time, I would have realized it then. I was too emotionally attached, though. I have come around in the meantime.

I'm not surprised that Irsay decided to cut ties with Polian. Well, I take that back. I am surprised, but I'm not shocked. Irsay has been hinting at big changes for a while now. I saw this as something that could possibly happen, but if I had to make a prediction I didn't think that it would. There are several legitimate reasons to argue that it was time for a change. The most compelling is that the team has steadily declined since the most recent Super Bowl team, and I firmly believe that a lack of impact from early-round draft picks over the past four years are a big part of the reason why. That either falls back on the GM for not evaluating talent well or the coaching staff for not effectively developing that talent.

My only point was that these arguments as to why firing Polian was the right thing to do can stand on their own merit. There is no need to try to knock down his prior accomplishments (which are legitimate accomplishments) to make that point. Maybe that's not what you're doing, but when you lay out his accomplishments and then follow each one with a "...but this is why that wasn't really significant..." then that's what it looks like. Maybe it would be apparent from your past posts that this was not the intent, but the notion that I should research your previous posts before quoting and responding to something that you write is....well, a tad ridiculous.

It's cool. We're on the same page.

Cudos to Polian for the early years, without hesitation. I've always backed those landmark decisions.....but I'm equally as adamant about needing change now.

I just don't like coming on here having to rehash all history to back up a here-and-now point. Sometimes I'm impatient with that. I do respect reasonable viewpoints. Here's to the future......

[MAC]

I wasn't aware of all the Dolan circumstances....

One thing I think makes a difference is the smaller market the Colts are in. It demands a different approach when it comes to commitment I believe, and Irsay seems to be a good fit for the city/region. He learned much from the old Baltimore days, I'm sure, and the original deal including the joint Lucas Oil Stadium-Indiana Convention Center was very sound for both sides including a lengthy team lease on the facility. If I remember right, it runs through 2034 and one provision is the Colts are forbidden to play their homegames elsewhere or negotiate a relocation. Tens of billions of dollars will be generated over this time and Irsay is going to be highly motivated to deliver a winner for all the right reasons. What I'd like to see is shallower troughs through the years and better postseason play = consistency and a more balanced team. With that will come the desired continuity. I believe Irsay will move the team into better days.

Shrewd moves - and loyalty to your base is paramount in my opinion. I didn't realize that the lease was that long. I view sports franchises as public trusts that belong to the people in a sense. If an owner wants out, he should sell, not move. Why make his individual problems or preferences a problem for millions. Just fundamentally unfair. It's nice to know that the Colts are so commited to Indy.

And I'm sure you're right about the small market effects. NY teams apparently feel the need to win NOW all the time. Unless you are the Yankees, it rarely ends well.

[everybodysgotone]

Shrewd moves - and loyalty to your base is paramount in my opinion. I didn't realize that the lease was that long. I view sports franchises as public trusts that belong to the people in a sense. If an owner wants out, he should sell, not move. Why make his individual problems or preferences a problem for millions. Just fundamentally unfair. It's nice to know that the Colts are so commited to Indy.

And I'm sure you're right about the small market effects. NY teams apparently feel the need to win NOW all the time. Unless you are the Yankees, it rarely ends well.

Hosting an NFL franchise in your city is definitely a cooperative effort. In the old Baltimore days, the team wasn't that far removed from winning years....but then the strike happened. Back then we lived outside Balt. and I'll tell ya what the old Memorial Stadium was in terrible condition and sub-standard for quite a while. The city was to improve the stadium but both the Orioles and Colts had to sign new leases to make it possible. Robert Irsay was very patient during that time. In the end, the Orioles wouldn't sign a lease because the team believed most of the would-be improvements were football minded, not baseball. Then the Mayflower moving trucks in lieu of insolvency even in the face of an erroneous immenent domain claim against a privately owned American franchise. It wasn't until years later Baltimore brought in the former Cleveland Browns after they finally saw the light and built a facility that could sustain.

But this ^ is why the situation in Indy is good. Jim Irsay learned from the past. And.....I'm sure Indy knows what it takes to not only attract but keep an NFL franchise. They out-bid Memphis, Jacksonville and New York in the end. I believe those were the final cities under consideration. LOS/Convention Center cost close to 4B with financing and interest, etc., but by the end of the lease will have generated aroud 50B in revenue. 350M for this year's SB, alone. With so many years ahead and a desire to be the best in a way similar to the Rooneys (in Jim Irsay's eyes....I'll not argue) I think the long range vision is a good one.

I think......a lot of the newer Colts fans will have a chance to evolve now too. They're getting a chance to see the team transition in a big way. The situation should make for an even better Indianapolis fan base, I'd hope. I know up in Pennsylvania the folks are Steelers fans for life and are at games year in/year out in the sun, rain, sleet, snow, win/lose. Doesn't matter. Fact is, the folks out there are the ones that matter most because they fill the seats. On ownership's end (especially in the smaller market cases)....it has to field a consistently competitive team to hold interest. This is part of the reason I'm supportive of what was done today. We need sustaining ways to go hand in hand with changing times and the new ten year-CBA.

[JCPatriot]

Cudos to Polian for the early years, without hesitation. I've always backed those landmark decisions.....but I'm equally as adamant about needing change now.

I just don't like coming on here having to rehash all history to back up a here-and-now point. Sometimes I'm impatient with that. I do respect reasonable viewpoints. Here's to the future......

Here's to the future. My one big concern with this is that Irsay does not appear to have anybody specific in mind to replace Polian. Maybe he actually does and he is not dropping names because it is somebody that is currently involved with a playoff team that he can't communicate with. I hope that is the case. I made the comment in another thread (or maybe earlier in this thread, I don't really know) that making a change when you see the opportunity to make an improvement can be a good thing. Making a change simply to placate those that want change, though, can often be self destructive. I get the sense that Irsay wanted change, so he cut ties with Polian and is now trying to figure out exactly how he wants to move forward. I would rather see it the other way around. I would prefer that Irsay saw somebody that he wanted to have as GM, so he fired Polian to bring that guy in. I don't get the sense that is how it happened, though, and that concerns me a bit.

[JCPatriot]

We need sustaining ways to go hand in hand with changing times and the new ten year-CBA.

You've mentioned the new CBA a couple times in this thread. What is the connection between the new CBA and the events of today as you perceive it?

[husker61]

I do want to respond to your Polian sentiments however.

And I'd also say that if Manning had played this year I am 100% confident that we would have won 10-13 games and be talking about the playoffs right now, instead of Polians supposed failures. There'd be a lot less grumpy people out there. I'll also add that perhaps the Colts biggest problem in recent years has been an unusually high percentage of injuries. If anyone can prove that that is the fault of the GMs philosophy, than these arguments would have more credance - but that's impossible to do. To make a long story short (a little late I'll admit), it's highly unusual for a GM to last 14 years, and Polian is getting old, and he's an ornery SOB who rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I have NO problem with the team changing directions. However to trivialize what he has done for this franchise makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Do you think that Irsay was lying when he spoke of this topic today, called him a hall-of-famer, assured him a place in the ring of honor, and mentioned hugs and tears? He was named NFL exexecutive of the year SIX times for crying out loud. 20/20 hindsite is a wonderful thing, but I question the necessity after one of the most successful periods by any team in the history of the league. As much as I'm looking foward to the future, he will be missed.

very wall said, and i completely agree with your other responses also!

[husker61]

That's funny, I've never heard anyone express that before. It strikes a cord with me because when I was a kid Irsay Sr bought the team and brought in Joe Thomas who gutted the team in the space of weeks (two years removed from a SB victory, with players who had played a prominent role in some of the best teams in the league for many years).

Not long after that Bert Jones came along (it's amazing what "stinking" does for your draft prospects), and Lydel Mitchell, and the sack pack, and life as a Colts fan was good again. I didn't worry so much about the "old" Colts. (Well, except for maybe Ted Hendricks - oh the PAIN).

The funny thing is, I never came around and forgave them as you have. They were both misserable jerks who couldn't be gone soon enough for my liking. Thomas took a few years, Irsay obviously a few decades. Not soon enough.

we must be about the same age. i remember all that. change is tough, but when it works out it's all good!

[everybodysgotone]

Here's to the future. My one big concern with this is that Irsay does not appear to have anybody specific in mind to replace Polian. Maybe he actually does and he is not dropping names because it is somebody that is currently involved with a playoff team that he can't communicate with. I hope that is the case. I made the comment in another thread (or maybe earlier in this thread, I don't really know) that making a change when you see the opportunity to make an improvement can be a good thing. Making a change simply to placate those that want change, though, can often be self destructive. I get the sense that Irsay wanted change, so he cut ties with Polian and is now trying to figure out exactly how he wants to move forward. I would rather see it the other way around. I would prefer that Irsay saw somebody that he wanted to have as GM, so he fired Polian to bring that guy in. I don't get the sense that is how it happened, though, and that concerns me a bit.

There's no way to know everything happening behind the scenes. Have some faith though....the Colt franchise is a very attractive job opportunity and I'd expect a choice of high quality football folks to be available even if Irsay's hand was "forced", for lack of better term, into a decision earlier than what any of us out here may perceive.

You've mentioned the new CBA a couple times in this thread. What is the connection between the new CBA and the events of today as you perceive it?

Not to dredge up old history, but Bill Polian had his share of cap management issues over the years. I realize all teams go through some of the same to an extent, but part of the problem was the have/have-nots disparity within the team coupled with some simultaneous bad decisioin making and sub-par drafts (as you mentioned). It all added up. Mostly, the new CBA is great because of the rookie wage scale. Of course, everyone else will be under the same rules. Now....with early round picks suddenly becoming much more affordable for their first several years of service and us picking #1 the sky is the limit (most particularly if we trade the #1 even though I don't think we will). We might possibly be more of a player in the FA market in selective situations...even though I'm an advocate only if there is a specific need/good fit. We'll see. The landscape has changed.

[HungarianColtsFan]

I don't think it was a sudden decision IMO, Irsay was preparing to take necessary measures, he just waited until the end of regular season. I think he has names to call, and we will have a new GM soon.

Based on Mr. Irsay's statement, Caldwell's future hasn't been decided yet, and this statement also told me that the final decision will be made with the new GM.

[el duderino]

Caldwell will get fired as soon as the new GM is here, thats pretty much obvious... We need a defensive minded coach, Peyton can handle the offense - if healthy as a QB, if not as the OC :-)

[Thewholefnshow28]

Caldwell is as good as gone. I do not understand why Irsay just did not fire him because everyone knows he is gone. He has stuck the knife in and just keeps twisting it on Caldwell.

I am sure Irsay has someone in mind because you do not fire the Polians and just run into this blind. He probably has an idea who he wants to look at for the GM and the HC position.

I am surprised by how many people are actually surprised by the Polians being fired. My Facebook and Twitter was blowing up with people who were shocked and did not see it coming. As much as Bill has done for this team during his tenure here the blood of this season was on his and Chris's hands. They were the architects of this team and when it came tumbling down this year they must carry a ton of blame for the season.

[HungarianColtsFan]

Caldwell is as good as gone. I do not understand why Irsay just did not fire him because everyone knows he is gone. He has stuck the knife in and just keeps twisting it on Caldwell.

I am sure Irsay has someone in mind because you do not fire the Polians and just run into this blind. He probably has an idea who he wants to look at for the GM and the HC position.

I am surprised by how many people are actually surprised by the Polians being fired. My Facebook and Twitter was blowing up with people who were shocked and did not see it coming. As much as Bill has done for this team during his tenure here the blood of this season was on his and Chris's hands. They were the architects of this team and when it came tumbling down this year they must carry a ton of blame for the season.

I think most of the fans weren't surprised.

Interesting Caldwell's situation, he is still under evaluation...anything may happen, but I hope Mr. Irsay won't forget to sweep out this corner too.

[JColts72]

Figured out the under evaluation for Caldwell still here, probably to be evaluated under a new GM review, but ca't wait that long, he should have been swept out already-New ERA, same coach, YUCK!

[Fatboyslim11]

No harm, no foul my friend. It's just that there are enough people on here who are disturbingly joyous about the change as it is without resorting to inflaming those who happen to like Polian. Whether directed at me or not, that was about as welcome as an "I told you so" thread.

I have long been a supporter of Polian, but I will embrace the changes and the future with as much optimism as anyone. The veracity of my opinions is of considerable less importance to me than the success of the team.

I do want to respond to your Polian sentiments however.

And I'd also say that if Manning had played this year I am 100% confident that we would have won 10-13 games and be talking about the playoffs right now, instead of Polians supposed failures. There'd be a lot less grumpy people out there. I'll also add that perhaps the Colts biggest problem in recent years has been an unusually high percentage of injuries. If anyone can prove that that is the fault of the GMs philosophy, than these arguments would have more credance - but that's impossible to do. To make a long story short (a little late I'll admit), it's highly unusual for a GM to last 14 years, and Polian is getting old, and he's an ornery SOB who rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I have NO problem with the team changing directions. However to trivialize what he has done for this franchise makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Do you think that Irsay was lying when he spoke of this topic today, called him a hall-of-famer, assured him a place in the ring of honor, and mentioned hugs and tears? He was named NFL exexecutive of the year SIX times for crying out loud. 20/20 hindsite is a wonderful thing, but I question the necessity after one of the most successful periods by any team in the history of the league. As much as I'm looking foward to the future, he will be missed.

Still trying to spin your viewpoints just like the rest of us? You are trying too hard to suddenly appear to be the objective, in the end, what's best for the Colts fan. You have continually criticized (in a nice sort of way of course) others that disagree with you yet put on this (I believe) fake aura of your opinions is more valid than others.

Polian was and is a polarizing individual with many flaws and failures. On January 2nd, he was on the receiving end of what he and his son had been dishing out to others for a long time. Neither the world nor the Colts will somehow implode now that Polian has been fired. After all, he is three for three. 3 jobs as GM, 3 firings. For all your praise and slavish devotion to him that disturbing behavioral pattern is a red flag. The Colts have had good eras prior to Polian (they just didn't magically appear in Indy in 1984 without a past history) and will have good eras post Polian. I am looking forward towards an exciting and winning Colts future.

[husker61]

After all, he is three for three. 3 jobs as GM, 3 firings. I am looking forward towards an exciting and winning Colts future.

i hope the colts continue to win also.

what has happened to both teams that he had success with after he was fired?

[HungarianColtsFan]

i hope the colts continue to win also.

what has happened to both teams that he had success with after he was fired?

You can call this season anything but success....