What is your idea of Settlement? Serious replies (moderated!)

[pgt_rob]

So can they just give him four games for failing to cooperate and let this whole thing end...

 

Pretty much. Even though Patriot fans have stated over and over how a suspension for not cooperating is unfair too, (Brett Farve.... fine only, etc.) I think Brady is willing to accept suspension for that as a cop-out to see if the NFL will hop on that since this has been going entirely too long. That way Brady still looks "clean" and the NFL gets a punishment, even though they are settling for it to be for not cooperating. I personally don't think Goodell is willing to fall for that either. Guns out still.

[amfootball]

Final hearing is now 8/31, decision by 9/4.

Actually Berman said not to hold him to the 9/4 date so Brady may have to file an injunction while this plays out. Not sure if this is just a tactic though by Berman to get this thing to settle as neither Brady or the NFL want this to go into the regular season.

[amfootball]

Here is some of what went on with Kessler and Berman this morning:

 

NEW YORK -- Judge Richard Berman seemed to commiserate with NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler during final oral arguments, which are being presented this morning at the Daniel Patrick Moynihan U.S. Courthouse.

During Kessler's hour-long summation of points where the NFL went astray in investigating and suspending Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, the topic of "general awareness" surfaced again.

As Kessler stated that, "Player policies say you can't be punished for being 'generally aware,' " Berman nodded vigorously. Berman then asked, "Can Mr. Brady be fined under the equipment policy?"

Kessler answered, "Yes, but the 'generally aware' problem trumps that."

Berman replied, "I read that and find that the 'general awareness' doesn't relate to the Jan. 18 game," to which Kessler said, "Outstanding observation."

Kessler was strident and animated during his oral argument. When Berman asked the question of whether the NFL's 2014 player-conduct policy provided notice that a player is supposed to cooperate with an investigation, Kessler said that that was for off-field issues related to domestic violence or arrests.

Kessler went as far Wednesday as delving into the Wells report and the PSI findings turned in by the firm Exponent. Passing out a hand-out, Kessler said, "I call this hand-out 'Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin.' "

He went on to say that Exponent's testimony in the Wells report showed that the NFL is alleging, "Mr. McNally went into the bathroom to lower PSI one or two tenths."

Kessler said, "That's like being pulled over for going one or two miles over the speed limit and the officer saying he concluded that by counting, 'One-Mississippi, two Mississippi . . .' "

Berman also seemed to agree that the NFL withholding NFL council Jeff Pash from being questioned during Brady's appeal hearing in June was significant.

In concluding, Kessler said to Berman that, "Last week you asked, 'Where was the 'gate' in Deflategate?' I hope that the gate leads to a fair result . . . All we can ask for is that the NFL plays by the rules."

NFL attorney Daniel Nash followed Kessler at the podium, and while Berman said he could take just as long as Kessler, Nash said he likely wouldn't need it because this is not the time to fight the details.

Nash alleged that Kessler's final argument proves the NFL's point, that the NFLPA is trying to re-open the investigation with Berman as the arbitrator.

As of 11:10 a.m., Nash's arguments were still ongoing.

 

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/berman-agrees-kessler-general-awareness-issue

[ColtRider]

When you look at this issue and ask yourself "would I like to be convicted in the court of public opinion based on untruths and media manipulation", you come to a conclusion like Track Guy above.

 

A good settlement would be vacate all fines and penalties. The reason for this is the league will be gathering data during the coming season, and the IGL predicts that those footballs will show deflation (or possibly inflation) as the game goes on.  Just like the tires on my car or your car.

 

This is nonsense, and is making the league look ridiculous.  I don't want Mark Cuban's prediction that the NFL will implode in 10 years to become true.

The NFL just might end up doing that very thing ... Implosion ... Here's why ...

1. No discipline

2. Encouraged court fights

3. Encouraged fighting in practices between teams (Texans/Redskins; Cowboys/Rams)

4. Personal responsibility shuffled like a deck of cards

5. Constant negative media scrums

6. No integrity from NFLPA or for that matter the NFL regarding certain matters/items

7. Declining revenue from all the above

OR ...

If NFL fans and society as a whole disregard any or all of the above as "just part of life" excuses, as to continue the league as a soap opera, rather than a football league, than yes it will survive. It'll be interesting to see which way society chooses.

For me : If 1-7 continue, I'll be gone very quickly as a fan. I'll keep my great memories of this great league locked away inside me for life.

[F.T. Walton]

Here is some of what went on with Kessler and Berman this morning:

 

NEW YORK -- Judge Richard Berman seemed to commiserate with NFLPA attorney Jeffrey Kessler during final oral arguments, which are being presented this morning at the Daniel Patrick Moynihan U.S. Courthouse.

During Kessler's hour-long summation of points where the NFL went astray in investigating and suspending Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, the topic of "general awareness" surfaced again.

As Kessler stated that, "Player policies say you can't be punished for being 'generally aware,' " Berman nodded vigorously. Berman then asked, "Can Mr. Brady be fined under the equipment policy?"

Kessler answered, "Yes, but the 'generally aware' problem trumps that."

Berman replied, "I read that and find that the 'general awareness' doesn't relate to the Jan. 18 game," to which Kessler said, "Outstanding observation."

Kessler was strident and animated during his oral argument. When Berman asked the question of whether the NFL's 2014 player-conduct policy provided notice that a player is supposed to cooperate with an investigation, Kessler said that that was for off-field issues related to domestic violence or arrests.

Kessler went as far Wednesday as delving into the Wells report and the PSI findings turned in by the firm Exponent. Passing out a hand-out, Kessler said, "I call this hand-out 'Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin.' "

He went on to say that Exponent's testimony in the Wells report showed that the NFL is alleging, "Mr. McNally went into the bathroom to lower PSI one or two tenths."

Kessler said, "That's like being pulled over for going one or two miles over the speed limit and the officer saying he concluded that by counting, 'One-Mississippi, two Mississippi . . .' "

Berman also seemed to agree that the NFL withholding NFL council Jeff Pash from being questioned during Brady's appeal hearing in June was significant.

In concluding, Kessler said to Berman that, "Last week you asked, 'Where was the 'gate' in Deflategate?' I hope that the gate leads to a fair result . . . All we can ask for is that the NFL plays by the rules."

NFL attorney Daniel Nash followed Kessler at the podium, and while Berman said he could take just as long as Kessler, Nash said he likely wouldn't need it because this is not the time to fight the details.

Nash alleged that Kessler's final argument proves the NFL's point, that the NFLPA is trying to re-open the investigation with Berman as the arbitrator.

As of 11:10 a.m., Nash's arguments were still ongoing.

 

 

What is the source for the above?  Is it a New England news outlet?  That seems very favorable to Brady, although the judge could have been just as agreeable to the NFL lawyer. 

[amfootball]

What is the source for the above?  Is it a New England news outlet?  That seems very favorable to Brady, although the judge could have been just as agreeable to the NFL lawyer. 

Sorry I just added the link to the post. It was from NESN, from Tom E Curran. He said the NFL, Pash is presenting his case now. I expect to see a report on how Berman and him interact shortly from Curran.

[amfootball]

The NFL just might end up doing that very thing ... Implosion ... Here's why ...

1. No discipline

2. Encouraged court fights

3. Encouraged fighting in practices between teams (Texans/Redskins; Cowboys/Rams)

4. Personal responsibility shuffled like a deck of cards

5. Constant negative media scrums

6. No integrity from NFLPA or for that matter the NFL regarding certain matters/items

7. Declining revenue from all the above

OR ...

If NFL fans and society as a whole disregard any or all of the above as "just part of life" excuses, as to continue the league as a soap opera, rather than a football league, than yes it will survive. It'll be interesting to see which way society chooses.

For me : If 1-7 continue, I'll be gone very quickly as a fan. I'll keep my great memories of this great league locked away inside me for life.

I visit a lot of fan forums and there are many fans of the NFL that are saying the same as you that if the NFL continues down this path, they will stop watching. Actually I can't ever remember reading this sentiment as often as I am now. It is very, very sad.

[amfootball]

Latest from Curran on NFLs discussions with Berman:

 

Tom E. Curran ‏@tomecurran 5m5 minutes ago
Stepped out of courthouse for update. Judge Berman banging NFL around for comparing ball deflation to steroid use, making Pash off limits.

[amfootball]

Here is the rest from NFL/Nash and Berman:

 

NEW YORK-- If it's Wednesday, it must be time for Judge Richard Berman to use Daniel Nash as his personal pinata.

At today's oral arguments in Tom Brady's appeal of his four-game suspension by commissioner Roger Goodell, Berman battered the NFL Managemet Council attorney with questions related to the league's decision to suspend Brady for four games. Primary in Berman's cross-hairs was the suspension itself, and Goodell equating it to steroid use.

"I have a little trouble with [Goodell deciding on four games]," said Berman.

In explaining Brady's four-game ban, Goodell compared the ball deflation and failure to cooperate to PED use and the use of a masking agent.

"How are deflating footballs and not cooperating with the commissioner legally comparable to STEROID USE and a masking agent?" asked Berman.

Three different times, Berman derisively asked how ball deflation equates to STEROID USE.

"It's clearly a fair question to pose," said Berman. "[Goodell's] explanation of steroid use only raises more questions than it answers."

Berman also interrogated Nash on which portion of the suspension was for ball deflation and which was for failure to cooperate.

"It isn't broken down that way," said Nash, adding: "There are people in the NFL who believe it should be four games for ball deflation and four for not cooperating."

Berman then asked, "So the next time someone tampers with a ball but cooperates, what would he get?"

Nash, after a roundabout explanation, finally settled on: "The amount of discipline would be based on the sound judgment of the commissioner."

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/judge-bombards-nfl-lawyer-with-questions-about-decision-to-suspend-tom-brady

[amfootball]

Here is more commentary. Apparently the NFL was grilled again by Berman.

 

@BenVolin
Judge Berman was very critical of Goodell’s conparison of ball deflation to steroids, and that Wells Report has no Brady link to Jan. 18

Stephen Brown @PPVSRB
Berman: "There is a bit of a quantum leap from the finding of Mr. Wells to the finding of Mr. Goodell." (from general awareness to scheme)

@mtaibbi
Took the morning off to visit Judge Berman's courtroom re the Brady case. Most will conclude it was a bad butt-kicking for the NFL.

@mtaibbi
Most interesting moment to me was Berman saying Goodell may have violated rules by disallowing testimony of Pash at Brady's arb appeal.

Daniel Wallach @WALLACHLEGAL
Judge Berman: "I have a little trouble with [Goodell deciding on four games]," via @tomecurran (at court)

@PPVSRB
Berman hit the NFL hard yet again, and again had problems with language of Wells Report and appeal process

[Gramz]

Well if am is correct, it's clearly a slam dunk case in favor of Brady.

Key.word.if.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

After long deliberations, Tom Brady and I have come to a settlement.

 

As you all know, Tom wanted no suspension, no fines, no nothing, because he did nothing wrong.  While I wanted Tom to have to come to my house once a week and dress up like a baby for the weekly picture on my new website www.TomBradyisabigcrybaby.com

 

It was going to be awesome.  One week, there was going to be a spilled glass of milk with Tom literally crying over spilled milk.  There was going to be another one where he was crying because Gisele is "breastfeeding" me and he is super jealous about it.  There was going to be a calender and everything.

 

We have met halfway, and Tom Brady is going to come to my house once a week and let me throw a carton of rotten eggs at him, one egg at a time, in the garage.

 

Seriously though, I think both sides should agree on 1-2 games with sealed records and get it over with so we can all get over it.

[bababooey]

I visit a lot of fan forums and there are many fans of the NFL that are saying the same as you that if the NFL continues down this path, they will stop watching. Actually I can't ever remember reading this sentiment as often as I am now. It is very, very sad.

Hard to think people will stop watching and the NFL won't be around in the future but I read Mark Cuban thinks so. I am more excited about hockey season, minus Kane and a few other incidences in the offseason it was just a great, exciting season all around and I can't wait until hockey is back in my life every other night. I love the Colts too and can't wait for them but this offseason plain stunk. I didn't even watch the preseason game, went to Newport with my girlfriend for the weekend. Pasta beach, best italian food I've ever had.

[dw49]

I visit a lot of fan forums and there are many fans of the NFL that are saying the same as you that if the NFL continues down this path, they will stop watching. Actually I can't ever remember reading this sentiment as often as I am now. It is very, very sad.

 

 

So this is the end of football as we knew it ? You two are cracking me up. 

[ColtRider]

So this is the end of football as we knew it ? You two are cracking me up.

If everything continues down a course of all 7 reasons I listed over the next decade or so, then yeah, it will be the end of the NFL as we know it. Even though I'm cracking you up, it's not a laughing matter for me.

[ViriLudant]

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 28s28 seconds ago Manhattan, NY

Berman: "There are some basic procedures of fairness that have to be followed.... You got to let someone make their case."

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 2m2 minutes ago Manhattan, NY

I thought that was Berman's most striking line. Seemed he'd been thinking about it.

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 2m2 minutes ago Manhattan, NY

Berman: "I believe some arbitration awards have been vacated" because a witness was not allowed to be called without explanation.

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 3m3 minutes ago Manhattan, NY

Berman: The NFL "cannot just conclude they cannot have a witness bc testimony would be cumulative."

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 4m4 minutes ago Manhattan, NY

Berman: "I don't understand the thinking to not allow Mr. Pash as a witness. Who else but Pash had the opportunity to edit the Wells Report?

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB 5m5 minutes ago Manhattan, NY

Pash was editor of Wells Report and featured in NFL press releases

[NewColtsFan]

Bert Breer denied this report, said that it was false.

 

I don't know who Bert Breer is....   never heard of him until your post.

 

But the story is alive....    it's up on ESPN.com right now....

 

And here it is....

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/13466823/tom-brady-new-england-patriots-open-accepting-suspension-provisions-source

[NewColtsFan]

IF that is true and the NFL still won't settle than I really do hope Berman strips them of their disciplinary powers.

 

BTW, this will set a terrible precedent for players going forward that they can be suspended for not turning over their personal phones.

 

 

Wow.....

 

More than 7 months later,  and you're still telling the same lie.    And yes,  I use the word "lie" specifically.     Because that's what this is,   a lie.

 

Next time you wonder why you're not being taken seriously here,  you can remember this exchange.

[ColtRider]

Here is the rest from NFL/Nash and Berman:

 

NEW YORK-- If it's Wednesday, it must be time for Judge Richard Berman to use Daniel Nash as his personal pinata.

At today's oral arguments in Tom Brady's appeal of his four-game suspension by commissioner Roger Goodell, Berman battered the NFL Managemet Council attorney with questions related to the league's decision to suspend Brady for four games. Primary in Berman's cross-hairs was the suspension itself, and Goodell equating it to steroid use.

"I have a little trouble with [Goodell deciding on four games]," said Berman.

In explaining Brady's four-game ban, Goodell compared the ball deflation and failure to cooperate to PED use and the use of a masking agent.

"How are deflating footballs and not cooperating with the commissioner legally comparable to STEROID USE and a masking agent?" asked Berman.

Three different times, Berman derisively asked how ball deflation equates to STEROID USE.

"It's clearly a fair question to pose," said Berman. "[Goodell's] explanation of steroid use only raises more questions than it answers."

Berman also interrogated Nash on which portion of the suspension was for ball deflation and which was for failure to cooperate.

"It isn't broken down that way," said Nash, adding: "There are people in the NFL who believe it should be four games for ball deflation and four for not cooperating."

Berman then asked, "So the next time someone tampers with a ball but cooperates, what would he get?"

Nash, after a roundabout explanation, finally settled on: "The amount of discipline would be based on the sound judgment of the commissioner."

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/judge-bombards-nfl-lawyer-with-questions-about-decision-to-suspend-tom-brady

Seems as though Judge Berman is not an avid football fan. Equating PEDs and deflating footballs are one in the same. Both give you an unfair competitive advantage. Both cheat the rules of the NFL. Both can be regarded as disciplinary equals without prejudice.

[Gramz]

Seems as though Judge Berman is not an avid football fan. Equating PEDs and deflating footballs are one in the same. Both give you an unfair competitive advantage. Both cheat the rules of the NFL. Both can be regarded as disciplinary equals without prejudice.

I would bet the NFL pointed this out.

[ViriLudant]

I don't know who Bert Breer is.... never heard of him until your post.

But the story is alive.... it's up on ESPN.com right now....

And here it is....

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/13466823/tom-brady-new-england-patriots-open-accepting-suspension-provisions-source

Seriously? Albert Breer, who works for the NFL Network?

[amfootball]

Seems as though Judge Berman is not an avid football fan. Equating PEDs and deflating footballs are one in the same. Both give you an unfair competitive advantage. Both cheat the rules of the NFL. Both can be regarded as disciplinary equals without prejudice.

If that was the case then why has ball tampering in the past been punished only by a verbal warning or fine while PEDs have always been a four game suspension for first offense?

[ViriLudant]

Seems as though Judge Berman is not an avid football fan. Equating PEDs and deflating footballs are one in the same. Both give you an unfair competitive advantage. Both cheat the rules of the NFL. Both can be regarded as disciplinary equals without prejudice.

Oh dear god.

No, they're not. Not even close.

[BullsColtsFan1]

I don't know who Bert Breer is....   never heard of him until your post.

 

But the story is alive....    it's up on ESPN.com right now....

 

And here it is....

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/13466823/tom-brady-new-england-patriots-open-accepting-suspension-provisions-source

He's talking about Albert Breer.  Here is an article with his name in it about this topic.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000512628/article/brady-willing-to-talk-admittance-to-lack-of-cooperation

[amfootball]

So this is the end of football as we knew it ? You two are cracking me up. 

Did you ever read "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell?  The NFL is there I think right now.

[ViriLudant]

Stephen BrownVerified account ‏@PPVSRB

Berman: "I believe some arbitration awards have been vacated" because a witness was not allowed to be called without explanation.

That's a huge statement for Berman to make. He's clearly indicating that he could vacate Brady's punishment.

[amfootball]

Stephen BrownVerified account ‏@PPVSRB

Berman: "I believe some arbitration awards have been vacated" because a witness was not allowed to be called without explanation.

That's a huge statement for Berman to make. He's clearly indicating that he could vacate Brady's punishment.

Yes, I thought that was the biggest bomb today along with him agreeing with Kessler about the "general awareness" statement as that is reason for vacating as well.

[Gramz]

By all means... call it over and move on.

[pgt_rob]

According from what all the patriot posters are writing, there isn't anyone in the court room but Kessler and the judge.

[amfootball]

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 3m3 minutes ago

Per 2 sources informed of Tom Brady’s thinking, his stance hasn’t changed. Not willing to accept any suspension in settlement at this point

 

This makes sense as based on today's developments, there is no way Brady should take a game.

[dw49]

If everything continues down a course of all 7 reasons I listed over the next decade or so, then yeah, it will be the end of the NFL as we know it. Even though I'm cracking you up, it's not a laughing matter for me.

 

 

What can I say ? If the earth get's hit by a meteorite the size of Venus , we won't have to worry about 1-7.

[Gramz]

It is my understanding that the Judge is still pushing for a settlement which would mean some compromise on both sides, not one side winning all.

That tells me he still has questions for both.

[dw49]

Did you ever read "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell?  The NFL is there I think right now.

 

 

Never read the first page...

[dw49]

Yes, I thought that was the biggest bomb today along with him agreeing with Kessler about the "general awareness" statement as that is reason for vacating as well.

 

 

Let's wait and see what transpires before we call these "bombs."

[amfootball]

Never read the first page...

Ok. Never mind then. It is a good/easy read and very applicable to this situation IMO.

[amfootball]

Let's wait and see what transpires before we call these "bombs."

I don't know DW when a judge says not letting the PA interview a key witness is reason for vacating the appeal that is a bomb IMO. So far we have had two hearings with Berman and both times he has grilled the NFL - first on the merits of the case/Brady's guilt and now today the process which was worse than last week and the CBA is supposedly the NFL's biggest stake in this.

 

What would you do if you were the NFL right now? I would be on the phone with Kessler and ask him what Brady is willing to take, probably a big fine and get out of town. They still slammed the team so they have that in their pocket.

[dw49]

Ok. Never mind then. It is a good/easy read and very applicable to this situation IMO.

 

 

Was it about a team that insisted on breaking and or stretching rules ?

[dw49]

I don't know DW when a judge says not letting the PA interview a key witness is reason for vacating the appeal that is a bomb IMO. So far we have had two hearings with Berman and both times he has grilled the NFL - first on the merits of the case/Brady's guilt and now today the process which was worse than last week and the CBA is supposedly the NFL's biggest stake in this.

 

What would you do if you were the NFL right now? I would be on the phone with Kessler and ask him what Brady is willing to take, probably a big fine and get out of town. They still slammed the team so they have that in their pocket.

 

 

They are used to judges vacating player punishments. They won't lose any sleep over it would be my opinion.

[jvan1973]

At this point I don't even care if it's vacated. Im tired of hearing about it

[amfootball]

Was it about a team that insisted on breaking and or stretching rules ?

LOL. This is why I really do love you.

 

The book has nothing to do with sports but is about defining that moment when an idea, trend, or social behavior crosses a threshold, tips, and spreads like wildfire. Gladwell is what I would call a deep thinker. His books deal with the implications of research in the social sciences and then he parallels that to human behavior. I think with the NFL these past couple of years has them at the tipping point of over saturation combined with the elitist attitude that they can do anything they want and still keep the money train rolling. As the saying goes, absolute power, absolutely corrupts. What Cuban said about the implosion might be sooner than 10 years.