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Jerrell Freeman = Bobby Wagner?


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I'm totally confused, he's a top 5 linebacker, BT has identical stats to freeman???? Then shouldn't that make Freeman a top 5 linebacker then????? What are you guys basing this off of? Potential??

Pat Angerer once led the league in tackles. I think you get the point....

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No I don't. But if both of their stats are really similar, neither is Wagner then. Unless you consider those type of numbers elite. Potential wise? Yes Wagner is better.

There are no stats quite as useless in football as ILB stats.

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Jerrell Freeman isn't as good as Bobby Wagner.

Based on what? Everybody seems to be saying that but I am the only one providing the statistics to show different and that includes PFF stats, I mean I think we can almost all agree Freeman is not worth Wagners money but to me that has to do with age and Freemans recent injury history more then ability

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 ILB on this team is a tough position

 

 

We dont have a stout DL in front of them..... Chapman (and others) are getting pushed out of the hole and in many cases, its by one guy.

 

On a team with a strong DL, the RB is forced to slow down and pick a different hole because the DL has partially filled the hole

 

This loss of momentum,is a key element to a LB, and in some ways DBs

 

Tackling a 220 lb RB at full speed is always harder, than taking down the guy, who has slowed down to find another hole

 

The LBs and DBs get injured more when the DL gets shoved around because of this "harder" tackle

 

 

I am anxious to see what our new DL can do 

 

 

But......... it isnt always the ILBer's fault

 

 

Freeman as good as Wagner?......... I dont think so

 

But..... Freeman would look BETTER with the DL in Seattle

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Even so he has similar game changing plays as Wagner....Though according to Football Outsiders Freeman played in 106 more regular season snaps then Wagner in 2014....and I don't really think Geno to Luck is a fair comparison. One QB is capable of putting up league leading passing numbers at any/every major QB stat every year(Or any single year) while the other QB is probably going to be fighting for a roster spot in the next year or 2. Besides he tried to illustrate how numbers are misleading but he did not show specific numbers showing the mislead

 

you're way overthinking this...I know, shock right?

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Based on what? Everybody seems to be saying that but I am the only one providing the statistics to show different and that includes PFF stats, I mean I think we can almost all agree Freeman is not worth Wagners money but to me that has to do with age and Freemans recent injury history more then ability

 

The question is where are the tackles being made?  That is a stat that isn't measured.  Freeman is a good player, but he isn't close to Wagner.  Sure, he may get the same number of tackles, but that doesn't mean they're similar in terms of ability.  Cato June had a TON of tackles, and that was mostly because the scheme dictated that he was a 'free' LB while the other two ate up blockers/plugged holes.

 

I'd honestly compare Freeman to June.  Great player in space and can clean up plays on the backend.  But not someone that'll shutdown the opponents run game.  And really all that means is that he is quick/fast and can wrap up well.  That's not the type of player that receives top dollar at the position.  Top dollar at ILB/MLB is a guy that can take on a blocker and still bust the play ala Wagner/Willis/Bowman.

 

I could be wrong in my analysis, but I believe that is where most folks are coming from.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind re-signing Freeman at a 3-5 figure annually, but I still think we can do better.  If we paired Freeman with a Wagner type, our run defense would be much much better.

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The question is where are the tackles being made?  That is a stat that isn't measured.  Freeman is a good player, but he isn't close to Wagner.  Sure, he may get the same number of tackles, but that doesn't mean they're similar in terms of ability.  Cato June had a TON of tackles, and that was mostly because the scheme dictated that he was a 'free' LB while the other two ate up blockers/plugged holes.

 

I'd honestly compare Freeman to June.  Great player in space and can clean up plays on the backend.  But not someone that'll shutdown the opponents run game.  And really all that means is that he is quick/fast and can wrap up well.  That's not the type of player that receives top dollar at the position.  Top dollar at ILB/MLB is a guy that can take on a blocker and still bust the play ala Wagner/Willis/Bowman.

 

I could be wrong in my analysis, but I believe that is where most folks are coming from.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind re-signing Freeman at a 3-5 figure annually, but I still think we can do better.  If we paired Freeman with a Wagner type, our run defense would be much much better.

I get where people are coming from but I have yet to see anyone show proof of how much yardage he gave up when he was healthy per catch(in 2012 or 2013), I provided the info I have and the numbers show he is quite underrated

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It seems that most of you are in agreement Wagner is quite a bit better than Freeman, despite the stats.  Furthermore, the age difference doesn't help.  I also think Wagner is better, but for the money, Freeman is a better value and more important to our defense.  Disagree if you want, but that is my opinion on the matter!  The guy doesn't get paid squat, and still goes out there and gets the job done.  People want to trash him because he was injured last season?  Just think if Wagner got injured?  How much money would be going to waste there?  It's bound to happen sooner or later...

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I would tend to think that Wagner is better than Freeman. However, we have only seen Wagner play in Seattle's top ranked defense. Their D-line is much better than the Colts' D-line. This frees up their LBs to make more plays.

 

I would be curious to see how Freeman would play in that defense because Freeman is very instinctive, fast, and has good cover skills. I don't underrate him at all and think finding him was a win for Grigson.

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Based on what? Everybody seems to be saying that but I am the only one providing the statistics to show different and that includes PFF stats, I mean I think we can almost all agree Freeman is not worth Wagners money but to me that has to do with age and Freemans recent injury history more then ability

 

It's based on watching them play. Stats don't tell you how good an ILB is, whether it's tackles, TFL, whatever. Coverage stats might help, but so often ILBs zone the middle, so the stats against them aren't really "against" them, and they aren't a reflection of their ability to cover. Tackle efficiency helps, but isn't conclusive (he might make the tackle, but is he a drag down tackler?) 

 

Wagner has more range, is more explosive, and is a more powerful tackler. He zips around the field and is often right where he needs to be, which is makes him look even faster than he is (and he's already really fast). He's strong and powerful. He has the explosiveness and agility of a wide receiver. This is why, when he was being scouted in 2012, Jerrell Freeman was signing with the Colts as a CFL free agent.

 

Freeman is instinctive, makes as much as he can out of his athleticism -- and he's no slouch athletically -- and because he's a former safety, he is natural in coverage. He's a great scrape/exchange player because of good awareness and closing speed. He's not a powerful tackler, and he misses tackles in run support and against the pass. He doesn't have the sideline speed and range Wagner has, and isn't as good in nickel coverage situations. 

 

I don't really think Wagner is a top five ILB right now. I think free agents or recently signed players get overrated at times. He's really good, top ten for sure, but unless you take out the guys coming back from injury, I think top five is too ambitious. So I'm not just praising Wagner just because it's popular right now. But I do think he's better than Freeman, is a difference maker, and has an even higher ceiling than we've seen. Freeman is above average, a nice player, but we've seen his best, and it's not that of a game changing impact player.

 

And of course, there's the age difference, which obviously matters.

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"Geno Smith had less turnovers than Andrew Luck...."

 

you could not have been more outrageous with this comparison, Comparing Freeman to Wagner is nowhere near comparing Luck to Geno....Not close

The point of that was that stats can be misleading. The worst QBs can have better stats than some of the best. Mike Adams tied for the most interceptions last year but he's not the best safety in the league.

Freeman isn't the same caliber player as Wagner. Plus there are a lot of variables that factor into ILB stats.

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The point of that was that stats can be misleading. The worst QBs can have better stats than some of the best. Mike Adams tied for the most interceptions last year but he's not the best safety in the league.

Freeman isn't the same caliber player as Wagner. Plus there are a lot of variables that factor into ILB stats.

"The point of that was that stats can be misleading."

 

Of course they can....Last season wasn't my first season watching football ya know. With that said when healthy Freeman has proven to be a playmaker. I don't know why people use general statements like "Best in the league" when every play and year is different and there are literally a 1000 plays to choose from every year to make a blanket statement like "So and So is the best linebacker in the league" for example when at the end of the day the NFL is a production based league.

 

Now I also get that stats like how many yards given up by a Linebacker in coverage has a place for example  and are very important but how many linebackers are actually good in coverage? In 2012 Freeman had a higher run stop percentage...Though I know it was 2012 http://packersnews.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19471

 

Now as to the eye test, I would agree Wagner is slightly better on the eye test because he is a bit more athletic but also at the end of the day its about production and Freeman is right on pace with Wagners production or better in some categories as shown by the links I posted

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Stats need to be placed in context. 

 

For instance, WHERE were some of those tackles made? In the backfield or 10 yards downfield?

 

The pass deflections are interesting, but how many completions did each player allow? How often was each player targeted? 

 

How many missed tackles did each player have? 

 

I hate to say it, but this is likely Freeman's last season in Indy. I don't see us giving him a large contract. I wouldn't pay him $5 million per season, let alone $10 million. 

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