Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[Bubbz]

My post that you quoted has to do with what kind of penalty one can impose.

Right which according to the cba is completely up to goodell

[bluebombers87]

Actually the Pats offered to make Jastremski available by phone for an additional interview and Wells declined. As for your other "fact", you may want to look up the definition of "fact" and compare it to the definition of "wild speculation". I'm sorry this isn't going the way you hoped though.

You don't interview someone as part of an investigation over the phone. You lose body language and other non-verbal cues. You're forced to rely on verbal cues, which are easier to mask.

[Yehoodi]

That's usually the case when what you're fighting about is not what you're really fighting about.  Same thing happens when you get into an explosive argument with your friend, spouse, parent, etc. that, on its own, is nothing.  But drag in all the context behind it and all the interests at stake, and the fight makes more sense.  I'm not proud to admit that I've had a heated argument about my putting the toilet seat down, but I think we can all understand an argument that the central interest at stake is listening and caring about what it is my wife ask me to do that just so happens to take the form of the position of a toilet seat.

 

I hear what you are saying and at time things can get heated over something that is not that important, I remember a coworker telling me that a members of his extended family got in a fight over a rocking chair in an estate and the two at the center of the conflict did not speak to each other for a very long time afterwards. 

 

And a reason why I have not spent a lot of time on this thread, partial due to the fact that I tend to be long winded and set forth a lot of my thoughts, which takes times, also I tend to choose to post about things that tend to take a long time (like what is one authority in a given situation, who has a better career WR record and alike) which can involve a lot of typing and the associated time.  Also to this is a touchy subject and did not want to get into some discussion that can fall off the edge a little. 

 

And is the reason why I did not get involved with the whole Ray Rice/domestic violence talk last fall on this board.  I did not want to spend the time and also did not want say anything that might offend folks.  At the time when I saw that all prior conduct of domestic violence only resulted in two games suspension and that Goodell made an adjudication domestic violence occurred thereby making the viewing of the video superfluous and frankly moot imo, thought that the NFL acted correctly in the first place.  This has since been confirmed when reading the Pederson opinion which reference that a 2 game suspension was actually enumerated in the CBA for a domestic violence.  It understandably so cause a firestorm and changes in the NFL policy on the matter which was great, but I thought that the Ravens got a bad deal on the matter.   

[bluebombers87]

Let's just say that you're right for one brief second .

To whom would those texts be addressed?

Try this on for size.

Maybe the NFL believed some texts were deleted. It's not out of the realm of possible action that both sides agreed to delete texts but couldn't accurately say that the same number of texts were deleted or even the same messages.

The NFL in the process of its investigation wants to compare the texts from both phones to compare and verify whether they match or not.

Brady and Yappy Yee get wind that they have text records of the Deflators phone and cannot verify what remains so they clam up. They can't interact without risk of being caught so they refuse to cooperate.

Explains quite a bit really.

But of course Pats fans will say something crazy and deflect.

[Yehoodi]

Right which according to the cba is completely up to goodell

 

Yes it is, you are correct,  However, his power is not absolute, he can not act arbitrarily and capriciously, and must act fairly and consistently and frankly within the context of the CBA.  For instance, if it is tradition for one to be fined $5,000 for an clothing issue and then one day he suspends a player for an entire season for his shoe laces too long, that is not going to survive in arbitration or subsequent court challenge.  On the other hand fining the same person $20,000 would very likely be something that would past muster as within in discretion and not be deem to be arbitrary and capricious and within the expectation of the players who agreed to the CBA. 

 

Too many people think that Goodell can do whatever he wants just because a sentence of a document is taken out of context.    

[Bubbz]

Yes it is, you are correct, However, his power is not absolute, he can not act arbitrarily and capriciously, and must act fairly and consistently and frankly within the context of the CBA. For instance, if it is tradition for one to be fined $5,000 for an clothing issue and then one day he suspends a player for an entire season for his shoe laces too long, that is not going to survive in arbitration or subsequent court challenge. On the other hand fining the same person $20,000 would very likely be something that would past muster as within in discretion and not be deem to be arbitrary and capricious and within the expectation of the players who agreed to the CBA.

Too many people think that Goodell can do whatever he wants just because a sentence of a document is taken out of context.

Right but what you're sayin is all completely out of context of what were talking about. When it comes to determining the punishment for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game, Goodell has the power to determine the penalty.

I don't need you to go around in circles and act like what I'm saying is that goodell can do whatever he wants.

[Johnhenry]

Try this on for size.

Maybe the NFL believed some texts were deleted. It's not out of the realm of possible action that both sides agreed to delete texts but couldn't accurately say that the same number of texts were deleted or even the same messages.

The NFL in the process of its investigation wants to compare the texts from both phones to compare and verify whether they match or not.

Brady and Yappy Yee get wind that they have text records of the Deflators phone and cannot verify what remains so they clam up. They can't interact without risk of being caught so they refuse to cooperate.

Explains quite a bit really.

But of course Pats fans will say something crazy and deflect.

 

Didn't the Players Union and his lawyer tell Brady not to give up his phone? If I am paying for legal advice, I take it.

[dw49]

Right but what you're sayin is all completely out of context of what were talking about. When it comes to determining the punishment for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game, Goodell has the power to determine the penalty.

I don't need you to go around in circles and act like what I'm saying is that goodell can do whatever he wants.

 

 

It's all part of the deflection and or denial process.

[Superman]

Didn't the Players Union and his lawyer tell Brady not to give up his phone? If I am paying for legal advice, I take it.

 

"My lawyer told me not to" isn't a good defense.

[bluebombers87]

Didn't the Players Union and his lawyer tell Brady not to give up his phone? If I am paying for legal advice, I take it.

Then what about Wells asking for just the messages from certain people? Didn't require his phone.

Brady has been very quiet on his refusal for this request.

[ViriLudant]

Try this on for size.

Maybe the NFL believed some texts were deleted. It's not out of the realm of possible action that both sides agreed to delete texts but couldn't accurately say that the same number of texts were deleted or even the same messages.

The NFL in the process of its investigation wants to compare the texts from both phones to compare and verify whether they match or not.

Brady and Yappy Yee get wind that they have text records of the Deflators phone and cannot verify what remains so they clam up. They can't interact without risk of being caught so they refuse to cooperate.

Explains quite a bit really.

But of course Pats fans will say something crazy and deflect.

Keep ignoring the fact that every Patriots' employee's phone was checked .

[jvan1973]

Keep ignoring the fact that every Patriots' employee's phone was checked .

Not all of the deleted texts were recovered. We've been through this many times

[ViriLudant]

Not all of the deleted texts were recovered. We've been through this many times

Only three from Brady's phone .

Every other Patriot employees phones were checked by Wells.

So if Brady's texts have to do with the Patriots' employees' handling of the balls, why didn't those employees have such texts on their phones ?

Oh, and over 1,000 emails, and no mention of deflating .

Phone = red herring. Only Colt fans here care.

[ViriLudant]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

[Narcosys]

[jvan1973]

Only three from Brady's phone .

Every other Patriot employees phones were checked by Wells.

So if Brady's texts have to do with the Patriots' employees' handling of the balls, why didn't those employees have such texts on their phones ?

Oh, and over 1,000 emails, and no mention of deflating .

Phone = red herring. Only Colt fans here care.

Not all of the deleted texts from the ball boys were recovered

[Cynjin]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

Since you asked for a comment...............I don't care.

[dw49]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

 

Yeah we left that out and good for you calling "us" out on it. Would it be OK for me to point out that most think your football team took the air out of footballs ?

 

Also hate to say it but "they" just aren't the brightest bunch. 72% think the Pats deflated footballs but like 45% think they cheated. 

 

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13423597/nfl-player-survey-reveals-majority-think-new-england-patriots-deflated-footballs-cheaters

[BSUalumNewsomeFan]

may, I'm new to this, so bear with me. I'm really curious as to why, if you're Pats fans that you're spending so much time on the Colts website? Do we really bother you that much? What is it that makes you feel compelled to try and persuade us to your viewpoints? It's clear that both teams' fans have different perspectives on this issue and I doubt either is going to change the other ones' mindset. to advisor is going to change to the other side. Just sayin'.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Sorry for not getting back to your post but needed to set aside some time to respond.  Essentially all of points regarding what Goodell can go with respect to a penalty are set out in my post to #2140.   

 

Regardless of what the CBA says or any Article 46, the Commissioner's authority is not absolute.

 

Again my point on Wells is not that it is dispositive one way or the other, but that it was a last opportunity for the NFL to convey to Brady that a suspension could be coming if you do not hand over your phone. 

 

Pardon me, but wasn't Brady already suspended, and not because he wouldn't turn over the phone?  It was the rest of the circumstantial evidence in the Wells report, and Judge Berman agreed balls were deflated.

 

As I mentioned in post #2140, the player needs to be on notice of a potential penalty is coming down the pike.  As there have never been a suspension for obstructing an investigation Brady would have no knowledge that out of the blue he would be suspended. 

 

Once again, not the reason he was suspended.  Up your focus.

 

The NFL could have tried to use a warning by Wells to support said notice.  This was my only point was that the NFL could of tried to use this warning, but as it not there, they do not have that option in their pocket.

 

Why would the NFL do that?  They know they don't have the power to require it, but it doesn't look good to the courts for failing to cooperate.  Also, there is precedent in the Southern district how judges come down on destruction of evidence.

 

As for my last comment in the prior post about "I will commit the penalty and just pay the fine later" (like Rodney Harrison always held money at the start of the season), my point was that Brady likely said to himself, they are not getting my phone and if they a problem and fine me, so be it, I will pay the fine.   Unfortunately Goodell, imo, got a hair across his behind and decided to impose a suspension,

 

the 4 games was already imposed!!  You just don't get it.  He was suspended because   JJ and JM perpetrated plans to deflate the footballs, and Goodell says there was already enough evidence to link Brady to knowing about it. The unmentioned sentimnet is the defendant potentially destroyed the smoking gun The NFL needed to seal the deal.

 

something again that has never happened in the near century of pro football with respect to any sanction imposed for obstruction of an investigation.   That is a heck of a precedent to set over a few psig in a football.  

 

Didn't happen here either.  It neither decreased, nor increased the length of the original suspension. Period.  Get it right.  I do think Wells gave Yee/Brady enough rope to hang themselves by warning them the data would be requested at their meeting, in case the data was refused and/or device destroyed to prevent data recovery.  For future legal proceedings, like this case now.

 

There is no doubt, this is a power battle between the Commisiioner, and the Face of the NFL Players.  This is already cutting both sides deeper the further it goes

If I were the NFL, I would also immediately file some kind of motion for sanctions in this case that asks for immediate confirmation for spoilation of evidence against Brady in this Southern District NY court.  Don Yee's mistake? <-- (As Ted Wells pointed out)

 

"When it is foreseeable you will be a party to a legal proceeding or governmental investigation, initiate and document reasonable and good faith efforts, taken as soon as practicable, to identify and notify custodians likely to possess relevant information."

 

Don Yee not only did not do that, he advised the opposite.  All while the Brady camp was threatening future court action.  How is that not foreseeable?

 

A cause of action for intentional spoliation of evidence arises when:

(1) litigation by or against the plaintiff is pending, threatened or probable;

(2) the defendant knows about the pending, threatened or probable litigation;

(3) the defendant intentionally spoils evidence to disrupt the plaintiff’s case; and

(4) the spoliation of evidence proximately causes damages to the plaintiff.

 

This whole thing long ago went from PSI to Balance of Power.  Players and NFLPA totally regret giving up these judicial type powers to the Commissioner for large copious increases in the money pit at the last CBA.  Now they run crying to the courts to take away the Commissioners / Owners collectively bargained rights to overseeing judicial matters, and not have to return anything of compromise in return.

 

http://www.natlawreview.com/article/southern-district-new-york-issues-spoliation-sanctions-against-foot-locker

http://beckermanlegal.com/Lawyer_Copyright_Internet_Law/arista_escape_140219MotSpoliationMemo.pdf

 

All in all, as I thought might happen, the judge punched public holes in each sides case.  Get's both side a touch less confortable in their stance. This is to get them softened up for the next round of settlement talks next time they're behind closed doors with the judge.  I proposed a 1 game, no public admission of guilt, and small fine (how about that  $25k!! LOL).  Judge Berman told both sides not to ascertain his tendency to lean towards based upon his questioning today. But let's see what goes down next Wednesday!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Didn't the Players Union and his lawyer tell Brady not to give up his phone? If I am paying for legal advice, I take it.

 

Possibly, and it was ill advised.  This is what happened today between Brady's lawyer Kessler and the Judge-

 

"Kessler astutely opens door for Brady to accept settlement where he accepts blame for (Brady) not being cooperative enough."

[ColtsBlueFL]

Only three from Brady's phone .

Every other Patriot employees phones were checked by Wells.

So if Brady's texts have to do with the Patriots' employees' handling of the balls, why didn't those employees have such texts on their phones ?

Oh, and over 1,000 emails, and no mention of deflating .

Phone = red herring. Only Colt fans here care.

 

"Kessler astutely opens door for Brady to accept settlement where he accepts blame for (Brady) not being cooperative enough"

[amfootball]

Well a lot came to the forefront today. Brady and the PA were willing to concede that Brady could have cooperated better with Wells but the NFL was not able to concede that the Wells report did not have evidence on Brady's involvement in this scheme despite Berman telling them this. I just saw that Bob Kravitz posted if the NFL does not come to a middle ground it will lose this case. I don't see Roger budging as it is paramount to him that Brady admit guilt. Also interested that this first session did not focus so much on the CBA as the Wells report which is good news for Brady. We will see where things go next Wed but the judge def. showed his hand in terms of the Wells report and wanting the sides to settle.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

 

The active players are part of the union.  The NFLPA.  The one representing  Brady.  Of course their interest is in their union's interest, and vice versa.  Why doesn't someone poll all of the owners...  see what respinse is there.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Brady Sketch courtroom-

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/sports/tom-brady-sketch-artist-panned-online-apologizes.html?_r=0

 

She apologized, online.  Of course I feel bad, I made a meme too.

 

[bluebombers87]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

That's not how I took it. I took it more of a dog against Goodell.

[ViriLudant]

Yeah we left that out and good for you calling "us" out on it. Would it be OK for me to point out that most think your football team took the air out of footballs ?

Also hate to say it but "they" just aren't the brightest bunch. 72% think the Pats deflated footballs but like 45% think they cheated.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13423597/nfl-player-survey-reveals-majority-think-new-england-patriots-deflated-footballs-cheaters

Except NFL players are the actual people involved. There's a reason why Socrates and Llato thought that democracies were the worst form of government .

[ViriLudant]

Brady Sketch courtroom-

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/sports/tom-brady-sketch-artist-panned-online-apologizes.html?_r=0

She apologized, online. Of course I feel bad, I made a meme too.

Lol, that one is good.

I liked the one with ET, too.

And the Scream.

[bluebombers87]

Keep ignoring the fact that every Patriots' employee's phone was checked .

But it wasn't compared to Brady's. You know the whole point of my above post...

[Superman]

I also noticed that none of you have commented on the majority of NFL players saying that Deflategate is blown out of proportion.

Even though many of you like to cite former people who lost to the Patriots as evidence.

 

It is incredibly rich of you to come here pointing out what someone else left out. I'm still waiting on a response from you from two weeks ago about the ball boys.

[Moose Of Woe]

Oh my lord...this...I have no words.

[bluebombers87]

Except NFL players are the actual people involved. There's a reason why Socrates and Llato thought that democracies were the worst form of government .

Here's my issue with this survey, it leaves out a multitude of details on how the survey was conducted. How did they select the players? Why 100 players (5% of the league). What was the MOE? So on and so forth.

[ViriLudant]

It is incredibly rich of you to come here pointing out what someone else left out. I'm still waiting on a response from you from two weeks ago about the ball boys.

Sorry, what was your question regarding the ball boys? Was this regarding the Jaguars who complained about the Colt ball boys?

[bluebombers87]

Only three from Brady's phone .

Every other Patriot employees phones were checked by Wells.

So if Brady's texts have to do with the Patriots' employees' handling of the balls, why didn't those employees have such texts on their phones ?

Oh, and over 1,000 emails, and no mention of deflating .

Phone = red herring. Only Colt fans here care.

Are you kidding? I explicitly explained it in a post in which you replied to and yet here you are asking the same questions.

My goodness.

[Superman]

Sorry, what was your question regarding the ball boys? Was this regarding the Jaguars who complained about the Colt ball boys?

 

[bluebombers87]

Sorry, what was your question regarding the ball boys? Was this regarding the Jaguars who complained about the Colt ball boys?

Oh you mean where the Pats brought this up (how childish) in the same rebuttal as their ball boy calling himself The Deflator because he was trying to lose weight?

Yep. Nice deflection. Please try to stay on topic.

[amfootball]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/12/deflategate-federal-hearing-tom-brady-roger-goodell-patriots?xid=si_social

 

Great summary here of the court hearing today. Right now it would seem that Berman is favoring Brady/PA in terms of the merits of the case - the Wells report. As much as Pash tried to make it about the CBA, Berman came back to the facts or lack thereof in this case for the league suspending Brady. Not sure the PA/Brady could have asked for a better development today. Berman is still pushing for a settlement which it would seem wise for the NFL to consider at this point but I don't believe they will back off at all. We will see.

[BlueCollarColts]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/12/deflategate-federal-hearing-tom-brady-roger-goodell-patriots?xid=si_social

 

Great summary here of the court hearing today. Right now it would seem that Berman is favoring Brady/PA in terms of the merits of the case - the Wells report. As much as Pash tried to make it about the CBA, Berman came back to the facts or lack thereof in this case for the league suspending Brady. Not sure the PA/Brady could have asked for a better development today. Berman is still pushing for a settlement which it would seem wise for the NFL to consider at this point but I don't believe they will back off at all. We will see.

Article I read made it seem like the judge was leaning NFL and had issues believing the ball boys would deflate the ball without consent or knowledge of Brady.

[Bad Morty]

I wonder how the owners feel about Goodell throwing away millions of dollars on an investigation that just got laughed out of court?

[bababooey]

I wonder how the owners feel about Goodell throwing away millions of dollars on an investigation that just got laughed out of court?

Probably happy he's standing up for the other 31 teams and not letting them get away with this garbage anymore. We've already heard this from the Giants, Cowboys, Colts, Ravens owners, willing to bet a few more teams agree too.