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Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko 4s4 seconds ago

.@AdamSchefter and Sall said "Berman told the NFL that they better come to grips that a settlement in favor of the NFLPA is very possible"

 

"Court reporters discussing how Berman's skepticism shouldn't be mistaken for how he would rule. Law regarding CBAs is big hurdle for Brady"

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One of the radio hosts here (who has been anti-Pats on this) believes that the league made a huge mistake if they let it be known (as Mort tweeted) that no settlement would happen unless Brady acknowledged the accuracy of the Wells Report findings...that is obviously a non-starter and not a legitimate offer to settle, which probably angered the judge and prompted him to tear the Wells report apart in court today.

 

Meh; just because you won't budge on a particular point doesn't mean your offer isn't legitimate. Brady's side has sticking points also.

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"Court reporters discussing how Berman's skepticism shouldn't be mistaken for how he would rule. Law regarding CBAs is big hurdle for Brady"

Agreed, except that every one of the last 4 rulings have gone against the CBA.

That, and Berman clearly focused more on Brady's actual innocence than procedure.

I'm sure, though, that procedure will come up later.

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Meh; just because you won't budge on a particular point doesn't mean your offer isn't legitimate. Brady's side has sticking points also.

As Florio pointed out, no settlement is ever arrived at that involves the accused admitting guilt. That's not the point of a settlement, so for the NFL to offer that up is basically telling Berman "we have no intention of settling".

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You realize Wells did the best he could without text messages and follow up interviews with The Deflator right? We are going to act like this still isn't out there despite Brady and the Pats doing everything to keep it under wraps?

You do realize that Wells was GIVEN access to all Patriot employees' cell phones, yes? McNally, Jastremski, etc?

The Patriots did that voluntarily. Brady did not because his lawyer told him not to because of personal data.

In other words, Wells searched everyone's cell phones that would have handled the footballs and found NOTHING.

But somehow Brady's would?

Uh huh.

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You do realize that Wells was GIVEN access to all Patriot employees' cell phones, yes? McNally, Jastremski, etc?

The Patriots did that voluntarily. Brady did not because his lawyer told him not to because of personal data.

In other words, Wells searched everyone's cell phones that would have handled the footballs and found NOTHING.

But somehow Brady's would?

Uh huh.

 

 

hmmm...and now reports that he was on a private plane with another woman.......maybe that's what he's truly trying to cover up.  

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The lack of civility in this topic that is dominated by Pats fans who clearly state that anyone who disagrees with them just does so because they are haters is obnoxious

 

If this were not active news I'd shut down the thread.  But honestly it's bringing out the absolute worst in everyone and ruining the start of the season for many

 

off season is one thing but it's football time now

I don't have a lot of free time, but when I did, I would spend it here.  After this all blew up, its made it harder for me to want to spend time here.  Because I am interested in the topic and find it interesting (I pay more attention to the NFL CBA issues than I do in my own company, if that tells you anything).  In a time when there isn't much football to discuss, all we have is issues like deflate gate and Geno getting rocked in the face over $600.  Those things become much less fun when the conversation, regardless of who's fault it is, deteriorates into basically 3rd grade arguments that amount to, "Yeah, we'll you're wrong because you're stupid" and "Because I said so."  Some are obviously worse than others, but you can only block or ignore so many people before you have no more contrasting opinions to debate with.

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I don't have a lot of free time, but when I did, I would spend it here. After this all blew up, its made it harder for me to want to spend time here. Because I am interested in the topic and find it interesting (I pay more attention to the NFL CBA issues than I do in my own company, if that tells you anything). In a time when there isn't much football to discuss, all we have is issues like deflate gate and Geno getting rocked in the face over $600. Those things become much less fun when the conversation, regardless of who's fault it is, deteriorates into basically 3rd grade arguments that amount to, "Yeah, we'll you're wrong because you're stupid" and "Because I said so." Some are obviously worse than others, but you can only block or ignore so many people before you have no more contrasting opinions to debate with.

I've missed your posts and insight. We need more like you to stick around.

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Sadly- No

 

Berman, warning the Deflategate case could stretch out into 2017, earlier urged both sides Wednesday to pump up their settlement efforts.

"I think it's safe to say nobody here wants to wait that long," said Berman after closed-door meetings with both sides. "Everyone is of a view that this case can be resolved expiditiously."

 

For me, I could care less how long it takes so long as justice is done and regardless who is harmed.

 

This mess has been going on for too long to just quit now.   I can not see it taking till 2017, but if it does go to court as the parties would not be able to agree, I want to see a complete and full account in court of the entire case, soup to nuts.  And I do not care who they have to call as witnesses, what has be subpoena, etc.  

 

Lets get everything on the table and lets see what happens.

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As Florio pointed out, no settlement is ever arrived at that involves the accused admitting guilt. That's not the point of a settlement, so for the NFL to offer that up is basically telling Berman "we have no intention of settling".

 

Well the bolded isn't actually true, despite what Florio says. 

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Well the bolded isn't actually true, despite what Florio says. 

Clearly he was using hyperbole...point is, it's typical that the accused doesn't accept guilt, or full guilt when a settlement is arrived at. Why would the accused accept guilt as part of a settlement? Might as well hold out for a judgment if  you are going to be guilty anyway.

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Interestingly , this turned out to be completely wrong in court today . Berman was much more interested in the mistakes made by the NFL during the actual witch hunt.

 

He is looking for fraud, undue bias, or procedures not covered by the CBA, Otherwise he cannot side with the NFLPA.  Of course he will Grill the NFL. And the NFL will attempt to in response show that there was no fraud, nor excessive bias or prejudice, or overstepping CBA agreement.

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Clearly he was using hyperbole...point is, it's typical that the accused doesn't accept guilt, or full guilt when a settlement is arrived at. Why would the accused accept guilt as part of a settlement? Might as well hold out for a judgment if  you are going to be guilty anyway.

 

What I find interesting is that the NFL's sticking point is considered to be unreasonable, but Brady's sticking points aren't. 

 

I'd rather not see a settlement. If the judge is going to rule on the merits of the CBA and arbitration, then let him rule. 

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You realize Wells did the best he could without text messages and follow up interviews with The Deflator right? We are going to act like this still isn't out there despite Brady and the Pats doing everything to keep it under wraps?

 

It was addressed:

 

Berman: What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy?

 

Nash: There is clear evidence in the texts between McNally and Jastremski that Brady knew

 

Berman: On January 18?

 

Nash: No. Not for that specific game

 

Berman: That's the only game we're talking about. The Wells report relates to only one game. Whether it happened before, who knows? There is no finding in this case that there was anything done by Mr. Brady.

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Posted Today, 01:15 PM

LuckIsAwesome, on 12 Aug 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:snapback.png

There's plenty of evidence that he did, just you decide to live in fantasy land and ignore the lies.

ViriLudant  - Show us these lies that you're fabricating.

Brady says:

 

"I didn't alter the ball in anyway. Our equipment guys do a great job breaking the balls in."

'When I pick those footballs out, at that point, to me, they're perfect,' he said.
 
'I don't want anyone touching my balls after that. I don't want anyone rubbing them, you know, putting any air in them, taking any air out. To me, those balls are perfect and that's what I expect when I show up on the field.'

'Everybody has a preference. Some guys like them round. Some guys like them thin. Some guys like them tacky. Some guys like them brand new. Some guys like old balls.'
 
As far as Pats Equipment staff-
'They also know how I like the balls and I tell them how great they are,'   He said of the staff.

Who is also on record saying-

“When Gronk scores … he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball,” Brady said in the 2011 interview. “I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes.”

And Judge Berman remarks-   And during his questioning of Nash, the judge acknowledged it would be difficult to imagine Brady remaining unaware of doctored footballs.
"He's the one who throws the ball," the judge said.


Then Brady says...

"I'm not squeezing the balls. That's not part of my process. I feel it."

“Like I said, I never have thought about the ball, the air pressure in a football,” Brady said. “The only time I have ever thought about the air pressure in a football was after the Jets game when they were at the level of 16(psi).

 

bs_meter.jpg

Then some immediate former QB reactions to the story-

“Those balls were deflated. Somebody had to do it. And I don’t believe there is an equipment manager in the NFL that would on his own initiative deflate a ball without the starting quarterback’s approval.”

Aikman added that Patriots quarterback Tom Brady must have known the deflated balls were being used because that doesn't happen "unless the quarterback wants that to happen."


This is why I don't believe Brady's denials.


As far as an NFL sting-

Troy Vincent, the NFL’s vice president of football operations, told NBC Sports the league wants to wrap up the investigation quickly so as not to take attention away from Super Bowl XLIX next week.


Sounds like the NFL was ready to take Brady to trial all the way into 2017...   riiiiiight.
And alomost all news stories reported that the Pat employee when caught would be receive a 25k fine.  This was after all those 'erroneous reports from Mortenson etc...
 

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It was addressed:

 

Berman: What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy?

 

Nash: There is clear evidence in the texts between McNally and Jastremski that Brady knew

 

Berman: On January 18?

 

Nash: No. Not for that specific game

 

Berman: That's the only game we're talking about. The Wells report relates to only one game. Whether it happened before, who knows? There is no finding in this case that there was anything done by Mr. Brady.

 

The Wells report applied to only one game because the NFL didn't need to pay millions more and prolong the investigation so Wells could unravel how far back the cheating goes.

 

FACT: Wells did not notice The Deflator text until after he interviewed him, when he wanted to interview him in light of this discovery, the Pats would not allow it, despite Wells saying he can meet him anywhere.

 

FACT: While we have texts from the two dopes phones, this does not mean more incriminating evidence does not exist within Tom "I text with the tenacity of a teenage girl" Brady's 10,000 hidden texts.

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The Wells report applied to only one game because the NFL didn't need to pay millions more and prolong the investigation so Wells could unravel how far back the cheating goes.

 

FACT: Wells did not notice The Deflator text until after he interviewed him, when he wanted to interview him in light of this discovery, the Pats would not allow it, despite Wells saying he can meet him anywhere.

 

FACT: While we have texts from the two dopes phones, this does not mean more incriminating evidence does not exist within Tom "I text with the tenacity of a teenage girl" Brady's 10,000 hidden texts.

Actually the Pats offered to make Jastremski available by phone for an additional interview and Wells declined. As for your other "fact", you may want to look up the definition of "fact" and compare it to the definition of "wild speculation". I'm sorry this isn't going the way you hoped though.

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Yeah 4 interviews with the guy who called himself "The Deflator" 7 months before the AFC Championship game weren't enough. The league has ZERO. They have sold you all a bill of goods that they had something...Judge Berman ain't buying it.

Would you like to make an avatar bet that Brady will miss some games? Even the judge acknowledged that there is reason to believe Brady was involved. I know you don't like to post that part of the events today
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Actually the Pats offered to make Jastremski available by phone for an additional interview and Wells declined. As for your other "fact", you may want to look up the definition of "fact" and compare it to the definition of "wild speculation". I'm sorry this isn't going the way you hoped though.

LOL if the pats offered Jastremski why did they accept a penalty for impeding the investigation? Wells said he wanted to meet face to face and had no problem meeting him. Why couldn't the Pats just let him do that? There is no wild speculation about Brady's text messages. We know they exist and if read would be a very bad thing for him. Don't get how that's a speculation?

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Again, I'm not trying to enforce anything. 

 

1) Wells is not the attorney for the NFL. He operated as the investigator for the NFL. And as such, it was not his responsibility to inform Brady of any potential punishment for his role or his withholding cooperation. 

 

2) The CBA authorizes the Commissioner to punish players for conduct detrimental, and that is reiterated in every player contract. Brady was suspended for conduct detrimental.

 

Goodell didn't delegate the punishment (I assume that's what you're saying). That point is addressed in his ruling last week. So there's that.

 

I don't have any idea what your last line means.

 

Sorry for not getting back to your post but needed to set aside some time to respond.  Essentially all of points regarding what Goodell can go with respect to a penalty are set out in my post to #2140.   

 

Regardless of what the CBA says or any Article 46, the Commissioner's authority is not absolute.

 

Again my point on Wells is not that it is dispositive one way or the other, but that it was a last opportunity for the NFL to convey to Brady that a suspension could be coming if you do not hand over your phone.  As I mentioned in post #2140, the player needs to be on notice of a potential penalty is coming down the pike.  As there have never been a suspension for obstructing an investigation Brady would have no knowledge that out of the blue he would be suspended.  The NFL could have tried to use a warning by Wells to support said notice.  This was my only point was that the NFL could of tried to use this warning, but as it not there, they do not have that option in their pocket.

 

As for my last comment in the prior post about "I will commit the penalty and just pay the fine later" (like Rodney Harrison always held money at the start of the season), my point was that Brady likely said to himself, they are not getting my phone and if they a problem and fine me, so be it, I will pay the fine.   Unfortunately Goodell, imo, got a hair across his behind and decided to impose a suspension, something again that has never happened in the near century of pro football with respect to any sanction imposed for obstruction of an investigation.   That is a heck of a precedent to set over a few psig in a football.  

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Would you like to make an avatar bet that Brady will miss some games? Even the judge acknowledged that there is reason to believe Brady was involved. I know you don't like to post that part of the events today

Yeah sure - I'll use a Colts logo if he serves any games.

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When the regular seasons starts and everything is in full swing I probably will be around a little more.  I can't just not talk about football.  

 

Can't wait.  Until then, I have to listen the North Eastern Spin on everything.  I never thought I would experience a NorEaster living in SW Florida.  I couldn't have ever been more wrong. :-(

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Clearly he was using hyperbole...point is, it's typical that the accused doesn't accept guilt, or full guilt when a settlement is arrived at. Why would the accused accept guilt as part of a settlement? Might as well hold out for a judgment if  you are going to be guilty anyway.

 

Oh, I don't know...perhaps for a reduced punishment?   Have you been under a rock since the introduction of our legal system?

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Oh, I don't know...perhaps for a reduced punishment?   Have you been under a rock since the introduction of our legal system?

which generally means admitting to a lesser crime than you were accused of, no? I.e. if you are charged with first degree murder, you might gladly plea to manslaughter if you were guilty. The league, by all accounts, asked Brady to just admit to the charges that he has denied under oath. There is no reduction in punishment that is worth that. They could wipe the suspension away entirely and he's not admitting guilt. Kessler pretty much revealed that a fine for lack of cooperation gets a deal done on their side. It's the NFL's move.

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Oh, I don't know...perhaps for a reduced punishment?   Have you been under a rock since the introduction of our legal system?

It doesn't really matter anyway because the settlement agreement is kept confidential.  It could say the Jolly Green Giant is not a fictional character and no one would be the wiser about it except for the people drafting/signing it, and anyone they disclose it to, who would couldn't see it unless it agreed to keep it confidential.  And that all belies the fact that, even if the agreement said that none of the parties admit any accuracy of the findings or guilt, the mere fact that there was a settlement implies some modicum of guilt.  It does every time a person on criminal charges pleads out, pays off a witness to not testify a la Greg Hardy, etc.  

 

So really, this whole impasse that the NFL won't settle if Brady doesn't admit the findings and Brady's not settling if he has to admit the findings is really a non-issue (if not a red herring) and it really exposes the childishness of both sides.  

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LOL if the pats offered Jastremski why did they accept a penalty for impeding the investigation? Wells said he wanted to meet face to face and had no problem meeting him. Why couldn't the Pats just let him do that? There is no wild speculation about Brady's text messages. We know they exist and if read would be a very bad thing for him. Don't get how that's a speculation?

Let's just say that you're right for one brief second .

To whom would those texts be addressed?

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What is sad (or some may find funny), had Brady just sprayed stickem on his gloves and played the entire AFFCG with stickem on his gloves, he would have received a FEDEX package from the NFL the Wednesday after the AFFCG containing  letter indicating that he had violated an NFL rule against the use of stickem and would of been fine $8,600.00 and change. 

 

But yet a few psig, which the NFL feels are due to human intervention as opposed other reason such as normal wear and tear of a football game or other, we have a federal case on the heels of the following season.

 

Stickem = $8,600 fine (three days after the AFFCG)

 

A few psig of a ball = several hundred pages on fan forums, 7 months of investigation, several million dollars and a federal case on the eve of the following season.   And some of you wonder why some of us pats fans are bewildered by this case.  :dunno:

 

Go figure.

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which generally means admitting to a lesser crime than you were accused of, no? I.e. if you are charged with first degree murder, you might gladly plea to manslaughter if you were guilty. The league, by all accounts, asked Brady to just admit to the charges that he has denied under oath. There is no reduction in punishment that is worth that. They could wipe the suspension away entirely and he's not admitting guilt. Kessler pretty much revealed that a fine for lack of cooperation gets a deal done on their side. It's the NFL's move.

 

so then, your previous question of "Why would the accused accept guilt as part of a settlement? Might as well hold out for a judgment if  you are going to be guilty anyway." was...poorly worded? 

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What is sad (or some may find funny), had Brady just sprayed stickem on his gloves and played the entire AFFCG with stickem on his gloves, he would have received a FEDEX package from the NFL the Wednesday after the AFFCG containing  letter indicating that he had violated an NFL rule against the use of stickem and would of been fine $8,600.00 and change. 

 

But yet a few psig, which the NFL feels are due to human intervention as opposed other reason such as normal wear and tear of a football game or other, we have a federal case on the heels of the following season.

 

Stickem = $8,600 fine (three days after the AFFCG)

 

A few psig of a ball = several hundred pages on fan forums, 7 months of investigation, several million dollars and a federal case on the eve of the following season.   And some of you wonder why some of us pats fans are bewildered by this case.  :dunno:

 

Go figure.

That's usually the case when what you're fighting about is not what you're really fighting about.  Same thing happens when you get into an explosive argument with your friend, spouse, parent, etc. that, on its own, is nothing.  But drag in all the context behind it and all the interests at stake, and the fight makes more sense.  I'm not proud to admit that I've had a heated argument about my putting the toilet seat down, but I think we can all understand an argument that the central interest at stake is listening and caring about what it is my wife ask me to do that just so happens to take the form of the position of a toilet seat.

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Seems to me that Judge Berman will have no other choice than to rule by the CBA. That does not bode well for Brady. The last 66/68 cases concerning CBAs have been ruled on the side of the agreement only. In other words NFLPA, you agreed to the authoritative powers relegated to the Commissioner concerning disciplinary actions, and you signed it.

If this somehow gets dismissed, the floodgates of the sports world would open to such a degree that the courts would not be able to handle it. Ever.

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Sorry for not getting back to your post but needed to set aside some time to respond.  Essentially all of points regarding what Goodell can go with respect to a penalty are set out in my post to #2140.   

 

Regardless of what the CBA says or any Article 46, the Commissioner's authority is not absolute.

 

With our legal system, there's really no such thing as "absolute" authority. I haven't argued that the Commissioner's authority is absolute. I said that the CBA and player contracts stipulate the player discipline for conduct detrimental is at the discretion of the Commissioner. You're not refuting that, are you?

 

Again my point on Wells is not that it is dispositive one way or the other, but that it was a last opportunity for the NFL to convey to Brady that a suspension could be coming if you do not hand over your phone.

 

That's not Wells' responsibility, as an investigator. It's really immaterial, as per Brady's Facebook post, Brady's reps told Wells that under no circumstances would he cooperate with the request for his phone or the messages on his phone.

 

As I mentioned in post #2140, the player needs to be on notice of a potential penalty is coming down the pike.  As there have never been a suspension for obstructing an investigation Brady would have no knowledge that out of the blue he would be suspended.  The NFL could have tried to use a warning by Wells to support said notice.  This was my only point was that the NFL could of tried to use this warning, but as it not there, they do not have that option in their pocket.

 

Again, immaterial. It was not Wells' responsibility to do this.

 

And, speaking from a logical perspective, did Tom Brady and his well educated team of attorneys need to be told in explicit language that he could be facing punishment from the NFL in association with this investigation? The NFL hired an investigative firm, which questioned everyone under the sun, Brady lawyered up before talking to investigators... is it really that hard to put 2+2 together? Again, it doesn't really matter, but this entire complaint rings hollow, IMO.

 

As for my last comment in the prior post about "I will commit the penalty and just pay the fine later" (like Rodney Harrison always held money at the start of the season), my point was that Brady likely said to himself, they are not getting my phone and if they a problem and fine me, so be it, I will pay the fine.   Unfortunately Goodell, imo, got a hair across his behind and decided to impose a suspension, something again that has never happened in the near century of pro football with respect to any sanction imposed for obstruction of an investigation.   That is a heck of a precedent to set over a few psig in a football.

 

That's a flimsy defense. 'I figured it might be fine worthy, so I did it and prepared to pay the fine. I never thought I'd be suspended.' 

 

As for this whole "century of pro football" and whatnot, there is plenty of precedent with regard to conduct detrimental. Again, the CBA and player contracts stipulate that the Commissioner has authority to determine punishment for conduct detrimental, and the Commissioner has exercised that authority several times in the past. This isn't anything new.

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If my team did what the Patriots' fans team has done, I would have had no problem accepting the penalties as assessed.  I've already demonstrated that attitude if you go back to the thread about Antonio Gates earlier this summer.

 

I support rules.  If you don't like a rule, fight to change it, don't weasel around it and push the limits to see what you can get away with.  If you intentionally bend or break a rule - be ready for the consequences.  Be a man and own up to it.  

 

Don't point the finger of blame at anyone and everyone else.  Don't "well they did this..." and "they did that..." to get around accepting blame, responsibility and punishment.  It doesn't matter what ANY.  OTHER. TEAM. DID.  You broke the rules and got caught.  Don't bring every argument that begins with "well... it matters what the definition of the word 'is' is."  

 

I am satisfied that Tom Brady and the equipment guys were working together to bend/break the rules.  They got caught and now they need to pay the price.  For Brady, he's forever tarnished in my eyes and that's sad.  He's good enough to win within the boundaries of the sport.  Like Lance, Nixon and others before him, something inside of him can't accept that he's good enough on his own... sad. 

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