Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[Cynjin]

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB  1m1 minute agoMassapequa Park, NY

Berman to Kessler: It looks like they...deflated the game balls? Why would either one of them do that without Mr. Brady’s consent?"

  

Stephen Brown ‏@PPVSRB  6m6 minutes ago New York, USA

Berman: Why did Mr. Brady not cooperate with the Wells investigation, with respect to providing texts?

Why is it that BM did not post those two questions?

[Nadine]

Not to come between you two and not that BM needs my defense, but I took at he was saying he was an obsessed/hater fan.

I did He's using himself as an example on how he feels fans of other teams are making their decisions about deflategate

As he has been doing for a while

[Cynjin]

I did He's using himself as an example on how he feels fans of other teams are making their decisions about deflategate

As he has been doing for a while

Well he certainly goes over the top in how he interprets other people's posts.

[Nadine]

Well he certainly goes over the top in how he interprets other people's posts.

The lack of civility in this topic that is dominated by Pats fans who clearly state that anyone who disagrees with them just does so because they are haters is obnoxious

 

If this were not active news I'd shut down the thread.  But honestly it's bringing out the absolute worst in everyone and ruining the start of the season for many

 

off season is one thing but it's football time now

[Bubbz]

If those questions are being asked of the NFL, the judge is likely asking he does not see any evidence that McNally, Jag and Brady together conspired to deflate the balls. If there is not direct action by Brady himself to deflate the balls, one could still get Brady if there is a showing that there was a meeting of the minds between the three that the employees would deflate the balls on Brady's behalf.

So disregarding the texts between the two goons, the destruction of evidence, and the balls being below psi that is explained naturally...

What exactly would it take in your opinion for Brady to be found guilty? A video recording of him directly face to face telling the ball boys to do that? You guys are being unreal in terms of the burden of proof you are putting on the accuser. The only non circumstantial evidence they would have had access to was in Brady's phone, which he promptly destroyed

[Bad Morty]

What exactly would it take in your opinion for Brady to be found guilty?

Depends on what the punishment is...a $10K equipment violation fine and a warning? My standard of proof is pretty small there. For the punishment that was handed down in addition to the guy's previously sterling track record for integrity being destroyed? yeah I need a HECK of a lot more hard evidence than what's been provided.

[Jason_]

Depends on what the punishment is...a $10K equipment violation fine and a warning? My standard of proof is pretty small there. For the punishment that was handed down in addition to the guy's previously sterling track record for integrity being destroyed? yeah I need a HECK of a lot more hard evidence than what's been provided.

 

I will give you credit for doing a fantastic job of answering a question without actually answering the question. 

[Bubbz]

Depends on what the punishment is...a $10K equipment violation fine and a warning? My standard of proof is pretty small there. For the punishment that was handed down in addition to the guy's previously sterling track record for integrity being destroyed? yeah I need a HECK of a lot more hard evidence than what's been provided.

So the burden of proof changes according to the penalty imposed? Makes perfect sense? In other words if Brady would've just gotten a fine you would believe he's guilty

[bababooey]

What's funny is the union admitted Brady got terrible advice from Don Yee which is really funny considering the person here who was just blindly posting Yee quotes saying how awesome it was

[Bubbz]

I see you are not getting my point so I will try again, I did not want to have spend my time on this matter but at the same time did not want to let my point no go unanswered. You indicated that you are neutral fan and I rely on your representation that you are neutral on the matter as some here appear not to be. As such I am spending time on this post.

Here is my point more fully stated.

My point is a simple one. When there is no enumerated penalty for a given action the commissioner has two choices: he can either let it go and establish a penalty moving forward for future violations or he may set a penalty for the present violation that is in line with the offending action. With respect the latter he may not act arbitrarily and must act consistent with NFL’s prior actions. The Commissioner’s authority is not absolute. Bottom line the player has be on notice that his actions will result in X penalty, and that is accomplished by enumerated penalty (you do X and you get y) or folks who have committed similar acts to yours and got Z, don’t complain if you get Z. Very straight forward.

In the instant case there is no enumerated penalty set forth for a player directing an employee (and much less being general aware of the same) to take air out of a ball after inspection by the refs. There is one that applies to the teams, the one we all discussed in January/February.

So the Commissioner has two choices, let it go or try to fashion a penalty for the action. He is choosing to do the latter. And given the above, he can’t be arbitrary but he can look to other prior actions by the NFL and penalties to fashion a result which is such that he can make the argument, in his mind, that the action by Brady is similar to those other enumerated actions; and as such, one can use the penalties from those actions to impose one here. Brady should have been on notice that his actions would carry such a penalty as his actions are similar, or equate to, those other actions.

Here, the Commissioner draws a comparison to a PED violation which carries a 4 games suspension. And as such, his point is I am imposing a 4 game suspension as the actions are equivalent to a PED violation. Brady should have been on notice that actions equivalent as a PED violation would carry a 4 game suspension. I do not agree with the Commissioner, but I see what he is trying to do.

Now do you understand?

Now if you understand the above, you can understand, or should understand, the other side of the coin, which is my point.

The other side of the coin is that this is not a PED violation equivalent, it does not help Brady run faster or throw farther, but it is a violation with respect to a benefit gained from one grabbing a ball. And with respect to the latter are there any things on the books or prior actions by the NFL with respect to the same such that we can see the NFL opinion on the matter?

With that said we have stickum which helps one grab a ball and carries a $8600 or fine. We have a report of a Jet employee tampering with a kicking ball, he was suspended and the kicker/player was not. We have the Viks/Panther in which teams were tampering with a ball, no fine no suspensions, and just as critical after the actions the NFL, via Dean Blandino, merely stating we want to remind clubs not to heat balls and nothing about integrity or that such conduct is conduct detrimental. Similarly we have the same result with the SD case, you have sticky substance, which as you indicated was not a violation on the books, but we have no investigation to see of any of those teams rub the balls with the sticky towel (which would be a violation of a the post locker room ball tampering rule (i.e. the tacky substance would rub onto the ball)), and like the Viks/Car case a post event release by the NFL that we are not allowing these towels and just a critical no language that the same is deals with integrity or conduct detrimental.

So bottom line anything that has to do with one gaining an advantage with respect to one’s grip on the ball is either a small fine or nothing. And that is the crust of my point. This issue is more to do with person interaction with a grip on a ball then a PED violation. And just as you very likely understood my point about Goodell above you must also understand my point above.

And if one can make a case that Brady did direct the side line employees to deflate the balls post locker room, you will have to go through the above to fashion a remedy/penalty.

With respect to obstruction of justice, one would still have to make a case that Brady did obstruct justice, and after making the case will have to go through the above analysis to fashion a remedy/penalty. With respect to such penalty, no player has ever been suspended for obstructing a NFL investigation.

One, a deflated ball may very well allow Brady to throw farther.

Two, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You guys want a burden of proof that is equivalent to a criminal proceeding but in a criminal proceeding you may not be found guilty of a crime but can still be found guilty of tampering with evidence. It sounds like you want a higher standard of proof than is written in the cba but still don't think Brady should face any penalties for destroying any evidence

[Gramz]

Depends on what the punishment is...a $10K equipment violation fine and a warning? My standard of proof is pretty small there. For the punishment that was handed down in addition to the guy's previously sterling track record for integrity being destroyed? yeah I need a HECK of a lot more hard evidence than what's been provided.

Unbelievable response.

You're basically saying you'd agree he's guilty IF the punishment was less. This one takes the

Are you and am twins?

[Bad Morty]

So the burden of proof changes according to the penalty imposed? Makes perfect sense? In other words if Brady would've just gotten a fine you would believe he's guilty

not necessarily...but I wouldn't care as much. It's pretty plausible that a guy would roll his eyes, say "what are talking about?" and then write the $10K check. I've gotten parking violations when I wasn't parking illegally...I paid the $25 and moved on. Doesn't mean I accepted guilt. Now, if they wanted to throw me in jail for it? Yeah - you can bet I'd demand they provide better proof that I committed a crime.

[Bad Morty]

Unbelievable response.

You're basically saying you'd agree he's guilty IF the punishment was less. This one takes the

Are you and am twins?

yeah sorry...try to keep up ;)

[Yehoodi]

So disregarding the texts between the two goons, the destruction of evidence, and the balls being below psi that is explained naturally...

What exactly would it take in your opinion for Brady to be found guilty? A video recording of him directly face to face telling the ball boys to do that? You guys are being unreal in terms of the burden of proof you are putting on the accuser. The only non circumstantial evidence they would have had access to was in Brady's phone, which he promptly destroyed

 

When you look at the evidence, look at which gauges were used and by whom and when, the starting point of the psig for each team, the times when the balls were tested at halftime, the test run by the Wells Report with respect how the balls increase in psig while sitting to be tested, one will find that the colts balls (which I assume are deemed innocent) did not change any more or less than many of the pats balls.  So that is the real evidence in my book.   

 

You can cry what you think the accuser must or must not do, I just look at the above.

[Yehoodi]

One, a deflated ball may very well allow Brady to throw farther.

Two, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You guys want a burden of proof that is equivalent to a criminal proceeding but in a criminal proceeding you may not be found guilty of a crime but can still be found guilty of tampering with evidence. It sounds like you want a higher standard of proof than is written in the cba but still don't think Brady should face any penalties for destroying any evidence

 

My post that you quoted has to do with what kind of penalty one can impose. 

[csmopar]

Mods - perhaps this thread has run its course and about twenty miles extra?  I, for one, don't see what's going to be accomplished here any more.  Perhaps when the ruling comes down let one last thread for discussion on it and then we can bury it all under the smelly, stinky garbage pile where it belongs?!!!  Pretty please?!

 

 

I agree.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

Berman: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 15 game? I’m having trouble finding it."

 

Berman: "I’m not sure where the 'gate' (in #DeflateGate) comes from. The Wells Report and the award relates only to one game."

 

Berman: From legal perspective: "You have to show that conspirators intended to be in the conspiracy...Is there a meeting?"

 

BERMAN: "Somebody deflated the balls, but it didn’t help Mr. Brady. Does that matter?"

 

...OUCH!

 

Berman started the hearing by saying there were "strengths and weaknesses to both sides here." And during his questioning of Nash, the judge acknowledged it would be difficult to imagine Brady remaining unaware of doctored footballs.

 

"He's the one who throws the ball," the judge said.

[csmopar]

The lack of civility in this topic that is dominated by Pats fans who clearly state that anyone who disagrees with them just does so because they are haters is obnoxious

 

If this were not active news I'd shut down the thread.  But honestly it's bringing out the absolute worst in everyone and ruining the start of the season for many

 

off season is one thing but it's football time now

 

 

it's really not active news though.  You could just close this, reopen when a ruling comes out.

[Bad Morty]

Berman started the hearing by saying there were "strengths and weaknesses to both sides here." And during his questioning of Nash, the judge acknowledged it would be difficult to imagine Brady remaining unaware of doctored footballs.

 

"He's the one who throws the ball," the judge said.

McCann was just on the radio here and said that if he were advising the NFL, he'd be telling them to scramble to put together a better deal than anything they've offered previously...because it's not looking good for them.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Is there a settlement coming today? I wan5 this put to bed.

 

It will either come next week, 8/19/2015 or sometime in 2017....

[bababooey]

McCann was just on the radio here and said that if he were advising the NFL, he'd be telling them to scramble to put together a better deal than anything they've offered previously...because it's not looking good for them.

A lawyer who teaches at the University of New Hampshire going on a Boston radio station telling them it's not looking good.

[Nadine]

it's really not active news though.  You could just close this, reopen when a ruling comes out.

isn't there another meeting?

[Nadine]

It will either come next week, 8/19/2015 or sometime in 2017....

you're joking right?

[ViriLudant]

Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko 4s4 seconds ago

.@AdamSchefter and Sall said "Berman told the NFL that they better come to grips that a settlement in favor of the NFLPA is very possible"

[Cynjin]

The lack of civility in this topic that is dominated by Pats fans who clearly state that anyone who disagrees with them just does so because they are haters is obnoxious

If this were not active news I'd shut down the thread. But honestly it's bringing out the absolute worst in everyone and ruining the start of the season for many

off season is one thing but it's football time now

I cannot wait for the start of the season, where fans can just overreact to a win or a loss.

[jvan1973]

It will either come next week, 8/19/2015 or sometime in 2017....

It won't take until 2017

[jvan1973]

Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko 4s4 seconds ago

.@AdamSchefter and Sall said "Berman told the NFL that they better come to grips that a settlement in favor of the NFLPA is very possible"

Berman started the hearing by saying there were “strengths and weaknesses to both sides here.” And during his questioning of Nash, the judge acknowledged it would be difficult to imagine Brady remaining unaware of doctored footballs.

“He’s the one who throws the ball,” the judge said.

[ViriLudant]

It's not a trial. The judge isn't trying to determine whether or not Brady cheated, lied, etc. The judge is responsible for determining whether the NFL acted unfairly or violated the terms of the CBA and/or arbitration agreement that was agreed to by the players and the league/owners. If the two sides agree to a settlement, then the problem is solved, from the court's standpoint.

Interestingly , this turned out to be completely wrong in court today . Berman was much more interested in the mistakes made by the NFL during the actual witch hunt.

[jvan1973]

McCann was just on the radio here and said that if he were advising the NFL, he'd be telling them to scramble to put together a better deal than anything they've offered previously...because it's not looking good for them.

Is McCann a close personal friend of the judge and knows what is going on in his mind?

[ViriLudant]

There's plenty of evidence that he did, just you decide to live in fantasy land and ignore the lies.

Show us these lies that you're fabricating.

[Bad Morty]

Is McCann a close personal friend of the judge and knows what is going on in his mind?

Yes. They play bingo together. The league's case took a very serious hit of reality today. Not many people are denying that. The Wells report was essentially laughed out of court.

[Superman]

Interestingly , this turned out to be completely wrong in court today . Berman was much more interested in the mistakes made by the NFL during the actual witch hunt.

 

"Mistakes made by the NFL" has to do entirely with process, does it not?

[bababooey]

Yes. They play bingo together. The league's case took a very serious hit of reality today. Not many people are denying that. The Wells report was essentially laughed out of court.

You realize Wells did the best he could without text messages and follow up interviews with The Deflator right? We are going to act like this still isn't out there despite Brady and the Pats doing everything to keep it under wraps?

[Bad Morty]

You realize Wells did the best he could without text messages and follow up interviews with The Deflator right? We are going to act like this still isn't out there despite Brady and the Pats doing everything to keep it under wraps?

Yeah 4 interviews with the guy who called himself "The Deflator" 7 months before the AFC Championship game weren't enough. The league has ZERO. They have sold you all a bill of goods that they had something...Judge Berman ain't buying it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

you're joking right?

 

Sadly- No

 

Berman, warning the Deflategate case could stretch out into 2017, earlier urged both sides Wednesday to pump up their settlement efforts.

"I think it's safe to say nobody here wants to wait that long," said Berman after closed-door meetings with both sides. "Everyone is of a view that this case can be resolved expiditiously."

[bababooey]

Yeah 4 interviews with the guy who called himself "The Deflator" 7 months before the AFC Championship game weren't enough. The league has ZERO. They have sold you all a bill of goods that they had something...Judge Berman ain't buying it.

I'm not getting sucked in this time. You aren't worth the suspension with the season right around the corner.

[csmopar]

Judge Berman ain't buying it.

 

 

None of us know what the Judge is or isn't buying.... which is typical of court cases.

 

Example, Supreme court ruling on Obamacare: all of them had negative comments and concerns about it, but it was still upheld.  We wont know what Berman is thinking until he publishes his finding and to assume or point otherwise is well *ic.

[Bad Morty]

"Mistakes made by the NFL" has to do entirely with process, does it not?

 

One of the radio hosts here (who has been anti-Pats on this) believes that the league made a huge mistake if they let it be known (as Mort tweeted) that no settlement would happen unless Brady acknowledged the accuracy of the Wells Report findings...that is obviously a non-starter and not a legitimate offer to settle, which probably angered the judge and prompted him to tear the Wells report apart in court today.

[Gramz]

I understand why the Judge is pushing both sides to give a little, and come to a compromise.

I just don't see it happening.

[Swan Ronson]

There's a whole lot of editorialising going on here.