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Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

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At the risk of being unpopular, it's just my own opinion... Huge embarrassment for the league. They botched it badly.

 

Maybe Brady is guilty. I don't know. As I understand it, the amount that the footballs deflated as reported in the Wells report was about the amount that the noble gas law would predict, and only some tenths of a PSI on average more than the few Colts footballs deflated (it was a small sample too). So am I to believe beyond a reasonable doubt the Patriots equipment guy took the footballs into the bathroom and took them down by like 1/3 of 1 PSI? Beyond that, they re-inflated the footballs at half time and shredded our Colts. 

 

Again, I know I'm gonna get hate for saying it, but I think the NFL should've just changed it's policies and procedures in regards to handling the footballs before the game rather than go after Brady.  I view Brady as one of the all time greats, presently I have him as the 3rd best QB in the NFL in '15 (1. Luck, 2. Rodgers). What he did, if guilty, falls more in line with Jerry Rice's stick em use. The only very damning thing about the situation - again if guilty - would be lying about it. But as it stands I think there was way too much doubt to issue a suspension.

There isnt any doubt. The ballboys deflated the balls on their own?

They worked for the team and Brady was the QB.

There is no other sane scenario for the deflating.

But when you are asked to comply, you ahev a responsisbility to comply. Brady's greatness isn't in question.

But he isn't as great as Pete Rose, who got a life suspension.

The suspension wasn't reduced because Brady essentially told the league to 'shove it' when they asked him to cooperate.

As you say. He was suspended for cheating and it wa s upheld when he lied and trashed the phone.

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but if it's personal phone he is not required to hand it over to the company.

With that said as you pointed out if the company factors into their plan of action for you despline that is their right.

 

You're right he isn't required to hand over his phone in any case but if you are getting asked by your boss when your butt is on the line, you'd be wise to turn it over.

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In the courts eyes, that'll go down as evidence tampering.  With that knowledge, no way he'll win in court. No way at all.

Question is in the eyes of the court does the NFL have the RIGHT to ask this of one of their employees? Can an employer FORCE and employee to turn over a personal device like this and personal conversations? That will be the rub. I don't know because I'm not a lawyer but that to me will be a tough one for the NFL to win. So if Tom made himself available for all interviews and answered questions perhaps he did all that is necessary under the eyes of the court to consider himself cooperating. Perhaps not giving up his personal phone is not enough to prove he didn't coorperate because the NFL had no right to his phone.......see there is a perfectly winnable case...if the court feels that way. We all know right now the courts and public opinion are against organizations/government getting your personal phone records...perhaps they rule that Brady's phone is off limits to his employer?

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Question is in the eyes of the court does the NFL have the RIGHT to ask this of one of their employees? Can an employer FORCE and employee to turn over a personal device like this and personal conversations? That will be the rub. I don't know because I'm not a lawyer but that to me will be a tough one for the NFL to win. So if Tom made himself available for all interviews and answered questions perhaps he did all that is necessary under the eyes of the court to consider himself cooperating. Perhaps not giving up his personal phone is not enough to prove he didn't coorperate because the NFL had no right to his phone.......see there is a perfectly winnable case...if the court feels that way. We all know right now the courts and public opinion are against organizations/government getting your personal phone records...perhaps they rule that Brady's phone is off limits to his employer?

Depends on the language in the CBA.  I do believe the CBA give the commissioner power to investigate potential rule violations and for teams and players to cooperate with such.  Though, that is just an assumption.  It will be interesting for sure.  Honestly, I think all the league has to do really is say the reason for the punishment isnt for deflating the balls, but for lack of cooperation during the investigation, phone aside.   If they do that, I think they can win.

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I think 4 games is perfect.  I wouldn't have wanted to play the Pats without Brady.  I want the Colts to be able to finally beat the Pats and at full strength.  It'd be nice if they started 2-2 or 1-3 and then the Colts beat them in week 6. That would be huge!

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This does not surprise me at all. I am just curious if Brady thinks by him destroying his cell phone that the information cant be retrieved.

Everything I'm reading says it can't be retrieved anymore. If it could be retrieved, don't you think the NFL would have done it by now?

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Depends on the language in the CBA.  I do believe the CBA give the commissioner power to investigate potential rule violations and for teams and players to cooperate with such.  Though, that is just an assumption.  It will be interesting for sure.  Honestly, I think all the league has to do really is say the reason for the punishment isnt for deflating the balls, but for lack of cooperation during the investigation, phone aside.   If they do that, I think they can win.

 

You're right. And the problem Brady will have is that he agreed to cooperate with the terms of the CBA.

 

It wasn't necessarily the fault itself but rather him being uncooperative.

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He destroyed his phone on the same day he was investigated by the Wells report. Right after the investigation.

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Question is in the eyes of the court does the NFL have the RIGHT to ask this of one of their employees? Can an employer FORCE and employee to turn over a personal device like this and personal conversations? That will be the rub. I don't know because I'm not a lawyer but that to me will be a tough one for the NFL to win. So if Tom made himself available for all interviews and answered questions perhaps he did all that is necessary under the eyes of the court to consider himself cooperating. Perhaps not giving up his personal phone is not enough to prove he didn't coorperate because the NFL had no right to his phone.......see there is a perfectly winnable case...if the court feels that way. We all know right now the courts and public opinion are against organizations/government getting your personal phone records...perhaps they rule that Brady's phone is off limits to his employer?

 

 

Depends on the language in the CBA.  I do believe the CBA give the commissioner power to investigate potential rule violations and for teams and players to cooperate with such.  Though, that is just an assumption.  It will be interesting for sure.  Honestly, I think all the league has to do really is say the reason for the punishment isnt for deflating the balls, but for lack of cooperation during the investigation, phone aside.   If they do that, I think they can win.

 

I feel this is immaterial. The NFL didn't try to compel Brady to turn over his phone or his text messages. They asked him to, and he decided not to. Case closed. But that influenced the NFL's opinion of his guilt/innocence, as did the fact that he destroyed the phone after refusing to turn it over. 

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I thought text messages could still be retrieved in the phone records of the carrier......no? 

 

If so, it's not looking too good for 

tom-brady-memes_8.jpg?itok=ihC_Rg2F

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Purposefully destroyed his own cell phone that he knew a investigation was seeking. . .

 

So not only does he refuse to turn it over but he destroys the evidence.  Nope nothing to see here. 

 

I'm curious what the Patriots response would be.

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You're right. And the problem Brady will have is that he agreed to cooperate with the terms of the CBA.

Exactly.  I've not read the CBA, I think I will but I'm assuming there's a clause in there for that.  Heck, when I played in high school, there was a clause that states I had to cooperate with any ISHAA inquiries.  I remember that because they came down looking at steroid use/dealing by one of our teammates.  

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He destroyed his phone on the same day he was investigated by the Wells report. Right after the investigation.

 

Yup. Destroyed March 5 or 6, and his last interview with investigators was March 6. Kind of undermines the idea that he was just getting rid of the phone because he got a new one; that's awfully coincidental...

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I thought text messages could still be retrieved in the phone records of the carrier......no? 

 

If so, it's not looking too good for 

 

Yes, but only by court order.

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I thought text messages could still be retrieved in the phone records of the carrier......no? 

 

If so, it's not looking too good for 

tom-brady-memes_8.jpg?itok=ihC_Rg2F

 

They probably can but the NFL doesn't have the power to subpoena that information.  That could only happen if it where a criminal investigation. 

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I thought text messages could still be retrieved in the phone records of the carrier......no? 

 

If so, it's not looking too good for 

tom-brady-memes_8.jpg?itok=ihC_Rg2F

note to self...do not say Cheatlejuice three times in a row, I don't want/need Brady showing up at my house.

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IMO I don't think this will ever go to a higher court. I could be wrong but I don't think Brady will want his phone records or the two equipment men brought into court to testify under oath. I also think that is the reason that Kraft back peddled on his threat to take this to a higher court. I am no expert in the courts or laws pertaining to the courts, just my opinion.

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You're right he isn't required to hand over his phone in any case but if you are getting asked by your boss when your butt is on the line, you'd be wise to turn it over.

I don't see how a company can make someone turn over their personal phone....what if they wanted to search his car...his house....interview his family and friends....what if they wanted to cut open his dog to see if he swallowed the phone? At what point does personal property remain personal and how much power should your employer have in gaining access to your personal life. We see all the time that they have right to your company phone/computer etc...but if he answered their questions but refusted to turn over his personal phone...well that may still be seen as cooperating. Most people don't have a lawyer or union to protect them from their company so many would likely comply to prove their innocence....in this case Tom has the legal system to prove his and he may never have to turn over anything. I may think he had more to do with all this but the NFL could easily lose this case depending on the judge. If people must turn over their privacy to play in the league...that could be too far...and the judge may say the NFL has no right. Brady answered your questions no let him play because your proof that he did something improper is weak. Its all possible. Do I think Brady is covering up etc...sure...but that doesn't mean he won't win his appeal.

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What will the spin be out of Boston on why TB destroyed his phone?

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Depends on the language in the CBA.  I do believe the CBA give the commissioner power to investigate potential rule violations and for teams and players to cooperate with such.  Though, that is just an assumption.  It will be interesting for sure.  Honestly, I think all the league has to do really is say the reason for the punishment isnt for deflating the balls, but for lack of cooperation during the investigation, phone aside.   If they do that, I think they can win.

But what is reasonable cooperation? Handing over your personal phone? That could easily open up a slippery slope. If he answered all their questions outside of not handing it over...kinda think he did cooperate. This phone thing make Tom look TERRIBLE...but that still doesn't change the issue of if Tom should be compelled to turn it over. Does the NFL have the right to his privacy? Thats the rub.

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I will post what I posted in the other thread:


 


It still does not mean "the deflators destroyed their phones". It takes two hands to clap and there is a sender and receiver of a phone text message. Of course, this is under the pure assumption that there were text messages exchanged between Brady and the "deflators".


 


If I am one of the "deflators", think about their stance. Well, if I am going to be paid just $25K or $30K a year, and Kraft and the Patriots will throw me to the wolves any day like a piece of meat should push come to shove, it is in my best interest to keep any messages Brady sent us saved for trump cards and hire my own lawyers, which they should have if they are smart. Then Goodell may have had the same piece of info from their phones and told Ted Wells "let us withhold Brady's side of the text messages and not release it unless we are forced to".


 


If Brady never sent any messages, he has nothing to fear and thus no need to destroy any phones and he will win his case.  The truth is, we will never know until one side calls the other side's bluff and when push comes to shove, we will find out what the NFL has, what the "deflators" have and what Brady has. Ugly is about to get UGLIER!!!  :)


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Everything I'm reading says it can't be retrieved anymore. If it could be retrieved, don't you think the NFL would have done it by now?

 

 

The NFL doesn't have subpoena power, so no.

 

Brady's team presented a letter, supposedly from the carrier, that the messages and records were no longer retrievable. Seems like it was 'oh sorry, I got rid of that phone, and even if I wanted, I can't show you anything that was on it anymore.' 

 

I'm not sure that means the messages and records are actually irretrievable.

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Depends on the language in the CBA.  I do believe the CBA give the commissioner power to investigate potential rule violations and for teams and players to cooperate with such.  Though, that is just an assumption.  It will be interesting for sure.  Honestly, I think all the league has to do really is say the reason for the punishment isnt for deflating the balls, but for lack of cooperation during the investigation, phone aside.   If they do that, I think they can win.

That is my thought process as well. His suspension is not for having the footballs deflated, it's for failing to cooperate in the investigation. That is a fact that can't be disputed.

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What will the spin be out of Boston on why TB destroyed his phone?

It's his phone...he can do what he likes. Famous people upgrade their phones all the time and destroy them so paparatzi etc can't get pics/info off them.

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I don't see how a company can make someone turn over their personal phone....what if they wanted to search his car...his house....interview his family and friends....what if they wanted to cut open his dog to see if he swallowed the phone? At what point does personal property remain personal and how much power should your employer have in gaining access to your personal life. We see all the time that they have right to your company phone/computer etc...but if he answered their questions but refusted to turn over his personal phone...well that may still be seen as cooperating. Most people don't have a lawyer or union to protect them from their company so many would likely comply to prove their innocence....in this case Tom has the legal system to prove his and he may never have to turn over anything. I may think he had more to do with all this but the NFL could easily lose this case depending on the judge. If people must turn over their privacy to play in the league...that could be too far...and the judge may say the NFL has no right. Brady answered your questions no let him play because your proof that he did something improper is weak. Its all possible. Do I think Brady is covering up etc...sure...but that doesn't mean he won't win his appeal.

 

You are missing one very big piece in that Brady agreed to cooperate with the NFL because he agreed to the terms of the CBA. In latent terms, this is like the agreement you'd sign before becoming employed at a company. In that agreement, you acknowledge that your employer has the right to inquire about things when they come into question. This is just obviously on a much larger scale than that.

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But what is reasonable cooperation? Handing over your personal phone? That could easily open up a slippery slope. If he answered all their questions outside of not handing it over...kinda think he did cooperate. This phone thing make Tom look TERRIBLE...but that still doesn't change the issue of if Tom should be compelled to turn it over. Does the NFL have the right to his privacy? Thats the rub.

they never asked him to turn over the phone. They asked for relevant text messages sent to the ball boys and the info would have been gathered with his representative present

If he was innocent, he wouldn't have destroyed the phone the day after Wells interviewed him

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It's his phone...he can do what he likes. Famous people upgrade their phones all the time and destroy them so paparatzi etc can't get pics/info off them.

 

He destroyed evidence. This wasn't just any phone. Even if he just wanted a new phone, that doesn't mean he couldn't have held on to the old one, or let his lawyers hang on to it. Destroying it looks bad, especially when you did so on the same day you have your last interview with investigators.

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The NFL doesn't have subpoena power, so no.

 

Brady's team presented a letter, supposedly from the carrier, that the messages and records were no longer retrievable. Seems like it was 'oh sorry, I got rid of that phone, and even if I wanted, I can't show you anything that was on it anymore.' 

 

I'm not sure that means the messages and records are actually irretrievable.

Well the messages went both ways...so its possible they are on the other phones......but yeah...they are likely in the same landfill with the Hillary's server and the IRS emails.

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The NFL doesn't have subpoena power, so no.

 

Brady's team presented a letter, supposedly from the carrier, that the messages and records were no longer retrievable. Seems like it was 'oh sorry, I got rid of that phone, and even if I wanted, I can't show you anything that was on it anymore.' 

 

I'm not sure that means the messages and records are actually irretrievable.

 

Which is why Brady/NFLPA would be wise to NOT want to go to court. The court will issue a subpoena for the text messages to whoever the wireless carrier is then we all get to see the details of what went on.

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I'm not sure that means the messages and records are actually irretrievable.

 

They can be retrieved, if the "deflators" saved it, assuming the exchanges happened as we assume and allege (until proven guilty).

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You are missing one very big piece in that Brady agreed to cooperate with the NFL because he agreed to the terms of the CBA. In latent terms, this is like the agreement you'd sign before becoming employed at a company. In that agreement, you acknowledge that your employer has the right to inquire about things when they come into question. This is just obviously on a much larger scale than that.

But how far reaching is that agreement? To your personal phone....your home computer? See where that is going? I doubt that language is in the CBA.

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LOL.

 

I hope he takes this to court.  PLEASE.  And the NFL shouldn't let him play until the court is settled and when it is strip him of everything because he is literally putting the league before him and trying to defame the entire organization.  He is full of himself and a cheater.  And most importantly a self centered liar :-).

 

Brady has threartened he will take it to court.  And a court in Minnesota or Massachusetts (the two likeliest places the NFLPA will challenge the ruling) could grant an injuction allowing Brady to play until it is completely settled in court.  That could back fire if Brady's ruling is found to be upheld, and it is near or at playoff time and Brady has to serve the 4 games at that time.  So there is a risk involved there.  Not sure how large of one, but there nonetheless.

 

Of course all the Patriot fans are ecstatic and wondering why Goodell stalled.  I think I may have found a partial reason.  Here's a snippet from an article-

 

""Any delay in the announcement is rooted not in whether Goodell has made up his mind, but in the belief that Brady will challenge the issue in court, and that the NFL's decision must be designed, vetted and written to withstand that challenge, sources told Graziano.

The NFL reportedly is looking at more than 400 pages of documentation as it prepares its decision.

At issue in any court challenge would be the question of whether the NFL followed its own policies, whether Goodell was impartial as the appeals officer, and whether the punishment was arbitrary.""

 

So the NFL doesn't appear to be heading there and using the courts overturning their ruling as a reason there was no suspension given.

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I have to say, I'm a little surprised, albeit,  pleasantly surprised.

 

I really thought all along it would get reduced to 2 games.

 

I think the fact that he destroyed his phone on the day he was being investigated is more than just a coincidence.   Even if he does switch out his phone every several months,( which I'm not buying ) he knew they were going to ask for records from this one and he deliberately  ordered it be destroyed.  Not a smart move.

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Which is why Brady/NFLPA would be wise to NOT want to go to court. The court will issue a subpoena for the text messages to whoever the wireless carrier is then we all get to see the details of what went on.

Not if they deem those messages private and the NFL to not have the right to read them. They may say Brady is under no obligation to provide his employer with his private phone conversations etc...and make this all mute.

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Which is why Brady/NFLPA would be wise to NOT want to go to court. The court will issue a subpoena for the text messages to whoever the wireless carrier is then we all get to see the details of what went on.

 

We'll see.

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