Troy Vincent on the union

[Valpo2004]

I am laughing my butt off.  HA HA!  I knew I would do something wrong.  

 

You probably are correct, but if you play in even a preseason game you have to pay some kind of dues...may be like an agent's dues???  I am still laughing.

 

No I doubt it. . . You don't get a salary for training camp or pre-season games.  You only get I think a small stipend or something like that.  That money is the same for everyone and it's not considered part of your contract.

 

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2013/7/23/4550368/training-camp-compensation

 

The agent only gets a percentage of what you make.  So I'm pretty sure you have to start actually drawing on your contractual salary from the club in order for you to owe anything to agent or union.

[Superman]

Even more laughable, Vincent admitted on 60 minutes to have never read the Mueller report, http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Closing-Bell/2015/02/03/Troy-Vincent-Mueller.aspx

 

Oy vey!

 

Why should Troy Vincent have read the Mueller report? What does an investigation designed to find out if the NFL had received the elevator footage have to do with Troy Vincent's job?

[amfootball]

Why should Troy Vincent have read the Mueller report? What does an investigation designed to find out if the NFL had received the elevator footage have to do with Troy Vincent's job?

I don't know maybe becomes he is VP of Games Operations for the league??

[Superman]

Who said a player has an unconditional right to play? We are talking about punishments and that is something that Roger has been very inconsistent with and has lost in appeals/court as a result. Honestly, I have no idea what Vincent is crying about here. I could see if the PA was wasting millions defending their players and losing but they are winning the majority of them. That is money well spent as that is their job - to defend their members when they are unfairly treated. Perhaps he should spend more time looking at the league and how they can tighten up their disciplinary process to keep losing every time. I did see they are hiring an investigative director so we will see how that goes ...

 

That's the entire implication. The NFL shouldn't be allowed to suspend players because "they have a right to play." That's garbage. 

 

1) That right isn't really a right; it's a granted privilege, like a job. You don't get to play in the NFL just because you want to.

2) The union conferred upon the commissioner the authority to determine player discipline at his discretion, not in keeping with some formula that people want to see for the sake of consistency.

 

This is really a bunch of stuff. The idea of "consistent punishment" has no basis in the real world, nor is it even necessarily the best way to handle player discipline, because every circumstance is different. None of the players that the league has discipline has been treated unfairly; in fact they're all guilty of considerable impropriety.

[BrentMc11]

No I doubt it. . . You don't get a salary for training camp or pre-season games.  You only get I think a small stipend or something like that.  That money is the same for everyone and it's not considered part of your contract.

 

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2013/7/23/4550368/training-camp-compensation

 

The agent only gets a percentage of what you make.  So I'm pretty sure you have to start actually drawing on your contractual salary from the club in order for you to owe anything to agent or union.

We can check that one.  I have enjoyed just messing around with it today.  Unions do make the money...no and's if's or buts.

[BrentMc11]

That's the entire implication. The NFL shouldn't be allowed to suspend players because "they have a right to play." That's garbage. 

 

1) That right isn't really a right; it's a granted privilege, like a job. You don't get to play in the NFL just because you want to.

2) The union conferred upon the commissioner the authority to determine player discipline at his discretion, not in keeping with some formula that people want to see for the sake of consistency.

 

This is really a bunch of stuff. The idea of "consistent punishment" has no basis in the real world, nor is it even necessarily the best way to handle player discipline, because every circumstance is different. None of the players that the league has discipline has been treated unfairly; in fact they're all guilty of considerable impropriety.

^^^^^^This.

[amfootball]

That's the entire implication. The NFL shouldn't be allowed to suspend players because "they have a right to play." That's garbage. 

 

1) That right isn't really a right; it's a granted privilege, like a job. You don't get to play in the NFL just because you want to.

2) The union conferred upon the commissioner the authority to determine player discipline at his discretion, not in keeping with some formula that people want to see for the sake of consistency.

 

This is really a bunch of stuff. The idea of "consistent punishment" has no basis in the real world, nor is it even necessarily the best way to handle player discipline, because every circumstance is different. None of the players that the league has discipline has been treated unfairly; in fact they're all guilty of considerable impropriety.

You are missing the whole point here. No one is saying not to discipline players, it is the process here. Imagine if there was no drug policy and Roger decided at his discretion what the suspensions would be for all the drug violations arbitrarily. You would be in the same quagmire. I have no issue with him wanting to discipline for off-field issues BUT he made the colossal mistake of not coming up with a policy on how he would punish players for x crimes, repeat offenders, etc. The DV policy that he created this year is his way of finally understanding that you have to have some sort of policy in place in which to discipline players otherwise you are at the mercy of public opinion and why he has been in the mess he has been this past season - being viewed as both too harsh (Roethlisberger) and too lenient (Rice). He has complete authority and with that comes complete responsibility and accountability. He did not hold himself accountable by not coming up with a process to punish and that is why he has been roasted in court time and time again.

 

And now for Vincent to come out crying about the PA spending money to rightfully defend their own members is just silly. He really comes off poorly in this story IMO.

[Superman]

I don't know maybe becomes he is VP of Games Operations for the league??

 

And that has what to do with elevator footage?

[amfootball]

And that has what to do with elevator footage?

The league was being investigated, an investigation Roger ordered himself, because they were believed to have lied about seeing the footage. I don't know about you but if I was a VP in the league, I would have read that report given that nature. For all Vincent knew, he could have been mentioned in it as someone who received the video or was aware of its contents. And of course the kicker is he goes on 60 Minutes and gets asked about it and looks even sillier.

[Superman]

You are missing the whole point here. No one is saying not to discipline players, it is the process here. Imagine if there was no drug policy and Roger decided at his discretion what the suspensions would be for all the drug violations arbitrarily. You would be in the same quagmire. I have no issue with him wanting to discipline for off-field issues BUT he made the colossal mistake of not coming up with a policy on how he would punish players for x crimes, repeat offenders, etc. The DV policy that he created this year is his way of finally understanding that you have to have some sort of policy in place in which to discipline players otherwise you are at the mercy of public opinion and why he has been in the mess he has been this past season - being viewed as both too harsh (Roethlisberger) and too lenient (Rice). He has complete authority and with that comes complete responsibility and accountability. He did not hold himself accountable by not coming up with a process to punish and that is why he has been roasted in court time and time again.

 

And now for Vincent to come out crying about the PA spending money to rightfully defend their own members is just silly. He really comes off poorly in this story IMO.

 

If there was no drug policy, you negotiate a drug policy, which has been done. Yet, the union fights drug suspensions, even when it's clear the player broke the rules, and wins on Ryan Braun technicalities.

 

The new DV policy still allows the commissioner or his appointee to use their discretion in determining punishment.

 

Ironic that the man who was accused of raping two separate women on two separate occasions is being defended here, as if the NFL shouldn't have hit him with a colossal four game suspension... please. He's lucky they didn't kick him out of the league. If he wasn't a good player, he wouldn't be around anymore (see: Josh McNary). 

 

The union comes off poorly when they spend more time and energy defending criminals than they do promoting for the care of their members. When they spend more time defending players who undermine player safety -- Jonathan Vilma -- than they do supporting protocols by the league to promote player safety. 

[Superman]

The league was being investigated, an investigation Roger ordered himself, because they were believed to have lied about seeing the footage. I don't know about you but if I was a VP in the league, I would have read that report given that nature. For all Vincent knew, he could have been mentioned in it as someone who received the video or was aware of its contents. And of course the kicker is he goes on 60 Minutes and gets asked about it and looks even sillier.

 

Bikram yoga...

[amfootball]

If there was no drug policy, you negotiate a drug policy, which has been done. Yet, the union fights drug suspensions, even when it's clear the player broke the rules, and wins on Ryan Braun technicalities.

 

The new DV policy still allows the commissioner or his appointee to use their discretion in determining punishment.

 

Ironic that the man who was accused of raping two separate women on two separate occasions is being defended here, as if the NFL shouldn't have hit him with a colossal four game suspension... please. He's lucky they didn't kick him out of the league. If he wasn't a good player, he wouldn't be around anymore (see: Josh McNary). 

 

The union comes off poorly when they spend more time and energy defending criminals than they do promoting for the care of their members. When they spend more time defending players who undermine player safety -- Jonathan Vilma -- than they do supporting protocols by the league to promote player safety. 

When then to steal your line you mine as well howl at the moon. I am not fan of unions in general but this is what they do. They defend their members even when they do heinous things. It is up to the league to limit how much their decisions can be fought and over turn in courts. If that is happening, I don't see how that is the PAs fault. This isn't a morality society. It is the NFL. Careers and millions of dollars are at stake. To blame the PA for spending on it members well fair seems very disingenuous to me for a league that chooses to spend its money on many other things other than player welfare. I mean cry me a river. This is a sports league. Not the boy scouts.

[Superman]

When then to steal your line you mine as well howl at the moon. I am not fan of unions in general but this is what they do. They defend their members even when they do heinous things. It is up to the league to limit how much their decisions can be fought and over turn in courts. If that is happening, I don't see how that is the PAs fault. This isn't a morality society. It is the NFL. Careers and millions of dollars are at stake. To blame the PA for spending on it members well fair seems very disingenuous to me for a league that chooses to spend its money on many other things other than player welfare. I mean cry me a river. This is a sports league. Not the boy scouts.

 

"This is how it be, don't complain about it." 

 

Nah. I reject that.

 

I also reject the assertion that the NFL doesn't spend money on player welfare. They are not without fault, but the duplicity of the union -- 'let's sue the league for concussion stuff, but then let's sue the league when they suspend our players for paying each other to hurt other players' -- is no more acceptable on those grounds. 

 

Your entire argument is that because the union has won cases against the NFL on technicalities, the union is right and vindicated. That's absurd.

[amfootball]

"This is how it be, don't complain about it." 

 

Nah. I reject that.

 

I also reject the assertion that the NFL doesn't spend money on player welfare. They are not without fault, but the duplicity of the union -- 'let's sue the league for concussion stuff, but then let's sue the league when they suspend our players for paying each other to hurt other players' -- is no more acceptable on those grounds. 

 

Your entire argument is that because the union has won cases against the NFL on technicalities, the union is right and vindicated. That's absurd.

Who is talking about vindication? Again, this is how unions work. You can reject it all you want. But I can assure you Vincent knows this which is why his comments again are silly. And if they keep getting overruled on technicalities and mishandling process like in the case of Bountygate and Rice and Peterson than that is on them 100 percent. The league is just as duplicitous on countless things like player safety when they only cared to actually do something with the rules when it hit their pocket book with the lawsuit. Like I said this is the NFL, not the boy scouts. Vincent should go cry to his mother.

[shakedownstreet]

[Superman]

Who is talking about vindication? Again, this is how unions work. You can reject it all you want. But I can assure you Vincent knows this which is why his comments again are silly. And if they keep getting overruled on technicalities and mishandling process like in the case of Bountygate and Rice and Peterson than that is on them 100 percent. The league is just as duplicitous on countless things like player safety when they only cared to actually do something with the rules when it hit their pocket book with the lawsuit. Like I said this is the NFL, not the boy scouts. Vincent should go cry to his mother.

 

Good heavens... Cry to his mother???

 

I have a suggestion for the first piece of reading for your book club: 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13170427/troy-vincent-talks-deflategate-more-qa-nfl

Prior to joining the NFL, you ran against Smith to become executive director of the players association. What's your opinion now of the union?

The union has a role and a function to protect the rights of the player regarding hours, wages and working conditions. I have an unwavering commitment to the game of football, as I did as a union leader. The union continues to have an important role in our game.

 

Surely you have a stronger opinion.

Look at the amount of money being spent on legal fees for a handful of people. It's millions and millions of dollars. We've got players that are hurting. We've got young men who don't know how to identify a good financial adviser. Men are in transition who aren't doing well, and yet eight to $10 million dollars a year is spent in court fees about who should make a decision on someone, who in some cases has committed a crime.

Think about that logically. Wouldn't it be better to spend our time and resources on the issues that are vital to our players -- past, present and future -- such as the players' total wellness and growing the game together?

 

 

I would have said that the union, led by Smith and Attallah and the others, is coming off like a bunch of hypocritical snakes that is more interested in defending criminals and drug dealers than in promoting the safety of the game. Vincent held back tremendously.

[amfootball]

Good heavens... Cry to his mother???

 

I have a suggestion for the first piece of reading for your book club: 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13170427/troy-vincent-talks-deflategate-more-qa-nfl

 

I would have said that the union, led by Smith and Attallah and the others, is coming off like a bunch of hypocritical snakes that is more interested in defending criminals and drug dealers than in promoting the safety of the game. Vincent held back tremendously.

I think we are like two ships passing in the night on this. The unions MAIN job is to defend its members not promote the safety of the game which also falls on the league as well who only seemed to care when the lawsuit surfaced. I really don't get Vincent's stance here at all. Who makes the decision and how a punishment is determined are paramount in any case whether someone is guilty or not. This is how the law works. If he feels there is a lack of morality on the union's part than I doubt Smith or Attallah are up at night because of it. And I am pretty sure the league uses technicalities to its advantages all the time so again he is being very duplicitous at best. And he would have come off worse had he said more as again if cases are being over turned than that is 100 percent on the league. Perhaps they should look into hiring better lawyers and coming up with better policies.

[Superman]

I think we are like two ships passing in the night on this. The unions MAIN job is to defend its members not promote the safety of the game which also falls on the league as well who only seemed to care when the lawsuit surfaced. I really don't get Vincent's stance here at all. Who makes the decision and how a punishment is determined are paramount in any case whether someone is guilty or not. This is how the law works. If he feels there is a lack of morality on the union's part than I doubt Smith or Attallah are up at night because of it. And I am pretty sure the league uses technicalities to its advantages all the time so again he is being very duplicitous at best. And he would have come off worse had he said more as again if cases are being over turned than that is 100 percent on the league. Perhaps they should look into hiring better lawyers and coming up with better policies.

 

You're saying the union should prioritize defending criminals and PED users over promoting the safety of the game? And you're defending that as a mission statement?

 

Please, let's not try to hold NFL player discipline to a criminal law standard. That's not the way it works.

 

And again, the patented 'the ends justify the means' defense. If the union is successful and getting player discipline overturned, then it was worth it. Awesome.

[amfootball]

 

✔ @GeorgeAtallah

You consider the infinite number of ways to respond to something like this: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13171906/nfl-vp-troy-vincent-criticizes-nflpa-spending-legal-action-challenging-roger-goodell-authority?ex_cid=ESPNNFLTW&sf10458108=1 … & simple is best: "small."

 

2:40 PM - 30 Jun 2015

 

 

Well said.

[amfootball]

You're saying the union should prioritize defending criminals and PED users over promoting the safety of the game? And you're defending that as a mission statement?

 

Please, let's not try to hold NFL player discipline to a criminal law standard. That's not the way it works.

 

And again, the patented 'the ends justify the means' defense. If the union is successful and getting player discipline overturned, then it was worth it. Awesome.

I am not saying they should, I am saying they do. That is the way unions operate. Careers and millions of dollars are at stake here. And if the league is going to punish on a wing and a prayer which has been the case under Roger than the PA will go after them as any union would. And them winning is not justifying anything but more of a reflection of just how poor this administration has been on disciplinary issues.

[Superman]

I am not saying they should, I am saying they do. That is the way unions operate. Careers and millions of dollars are at stake here. And if the league is going to punish on a wing and a prayer which has been the case under Roger than the PA will go after them as any union would. And them winning is not justifying anything but more of a reflection of just how poor this administration has been on disciplinary issues.

 

Nonsense.

[shakedownstreet]

[Bad Morty]

_{What exactly is gained by Vincent making these comments? It just comes off as petty and self serving.}

[amfootball]

_{What exactly is gained by Vincent making these comments? It just comes off as petty and self serving.}

As with all things, you have to look at the timing. You have Hardy and Brady coming up for the league so perhaps Vincent is setting the tone here by calling out the PA for all its litigation work against the league given the high profile nature of both cases. Public opinion has been brutal against the league of late so this is his way of deflecting IMO.

[SteelCityColt]

As with all things, you have to look at the timing. You have Hardy and Brady coming up for the league so perhaps Vincent is setting the tone here by calling out the PA for all its litigation work against the league given the high profile nature of both cases. Public opinion has been brutal against the league of late so this is his way of deflecting IMO.

 

"Public opinion has been brutal against the league of late so this is his way of deflecting" - A expert of deflection was quoted as saying regarding Vincent's recent comments.

[Superman]

"Public opinion has been brutal against the league of late so this is his way of deflecting" - A expert of deflection was quoted as saying regarding Vincent's recent comments.

 

Never mind the fact that it's not a deflection, but a direct response to a question.

[OffensivelyPC]

I am not saying they should, I am saying they do. That is the way unions operate. Careers and millions of dollars are at stake here. And if the league is going to punish on a wing and a prayer which has been the case under Roger than the PA will go after them as any union would. And them winning is not justifying anything but more of a reflection of just how poor this administration has been on disciplinary issues.

now let's apply this same logic to the winners of the last superbowl...

[ruksak]

So you mean to tell me that a Union can be misguided? You mean like how thy drove the auto industry out of America by insisting we pay high school dropouts $38 an hour to tighten the same nut on the same bolt until they retire? 

[ruksak]

_{What exactly is gained by Vincent making these comments? It just comes off as petty and self serving.}

Unions. Politics. 

 

Same thing we see with them licking their chops to get a piece of Wal-Mart. Petty and self serving.