Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[Shane Bond]

Mods - This thread

 

Actually, I believe it goes something like this.

 

1) Wells released toxic gases all over the Boston Area

2) Brady uses his powerful lungs of steel and gold to rid all the toxic gases and blow them into space

3) Brady's aim is so good that he is able to direct the flow of those toxic gases to the sun, where they cause large explosions and an increase in solar flares

4) While the energy from the solar flares reach Earth, Brady creates enough solar panels to solve the world's energy crisis

5) Brady uses the Ideal Gas Law to cure cancer, and eradicate poverty

6) Goodell and Wells steal candy from babies

7) Brady uses the energy from his solar panels to create organic candy for the babies

hahahhahahhahhahah

[21isSuperman]

Did you read it? There is no sense discussing it unless you read it. I have been down this path with others and it is a waste of time if you have only read editorialized headlines on it and not the report itself.

I haven't read all 200+ pages, but I've read bits and pieces.  Please tell me why you think it's garbage.  You can even point to specific things on specific pages and I'll look them up before giving a response.

[Shane Bond]

Mods - How is this thread not trolling when the OP ignores and makes selective responses?.

 

We can leave this thread open for fun though.

[amfootball]

I haven't read all 200+ pages, but I've read bits and pieces.  Please tell me why you think it's garbage.  You can even point to specific things on specific pages and I'll look them up before giving a response.

Please read it in its entirety and then get back to me (you can PM me if you like to avoid lengthy posts here) with your honest thoughts about its conclusions and basis for its conclusions. Pay special attention to the footnotes section at the end.

[Gramz]

[Bad Morty]

Mods - How is this thread not trolling when the OP ignores and makes selective responses?.

 

We can leave this thread open for fun though.

Sorry I haven't answered you personally. Was your question about the suspensions? I don't think the texts of them trashing their boss were known until the Wells investigation uncovered them. So how could the team suspend them for texts after the Jets game when they didn't know they existed.

 

It's funny...I just posted a theory that acknowledges they tampered with the balls...not sure why that's being ridiculed. I'll ask seriously...what if McNally had a pin/gauge and deflated the balls from 13 to 12.5 before the game? Is It not possible that that's what the "arrangement" was? Does that change how anyone would view this if the motivation behind it was that Brady wanted 12.5 balls, not balls that were below the legal limit?

[21isSuperman]

Please read it in its entirety and then get back to me (you can PM me if you like to avoid lengthy posts here) with your honest thoughts about its conclusions and basis for its conclusions. Pay special attention to the footnotes section at the end.

Come on now, I don't want to spend my time reading 243 pages.  Tell me what parts you have a problem with and we can go from there.

 

Mods - How is this thread not trolling when the OP ignores and makes selective responses?.

 

We can leave this thread open for fun though.

No one is obligated to answer anyone.  It's for discussion and sometimes, for whatever good or bad reason, some posts may go unanswered or ignored.

[21isSuperman]

Sorry I haven't answered you personally. Was your question about the suspensions? I don't think the texts of them trashing their boss were known until the Wells investigation uncovered them. So how could the team suspend them for texts after the Jets game when they didn't know they existed.

 

It's funny...I just posted a theory that acknowledges they tampered with the balls...not sure why that's being ridiculed. I'll ask seriously...what if McNally had a pin/gauge and deflated the balls from 13 to 12.5 before the game? Is It not possible that that's what the "arrangement" was? Does that change how anyone would view this if the motivation behind it was that Brady wanted 12.5 balls, not balls that were below the legal limit?

The reason I find it ridiculous is because the evidence isn't even remotely in line with what you suggested.

[Bad Morty]

The reason I find it ridiculous is because the evidence isn't even remotely in line with what you suggested.

That's your take. I think the dismissal of the logo gauge that would validate the ideal gas law as the cause for deflation is pretty sketchy. It's shoddy research that wouldn't pass a community college science class.

[Shane Bond]

No one is obligated to answer anyone.  It's for discussion and sometimes, for whatever good or bad reason, some posts may go unanswered or ignored.

 

I like your answer. Wish everyone thinks like you.

[Shane Bond]

Sorry I haven't answered you personally. Was your question about the suspensions? I don't think the texts of them trashing their boss were known until the Wells investigation uncovered them. So how could the team suspend them for texts after the Jets game when they didn't know they existed.

 

It's funny...I just posted a theory that acknowledges they tampered with the balls...not sure why that's being ridiculed. I'll ask seriously...what if McNally had a pin/gauge and deflated the balls from 13 to 12.5 before the game? Is It not possible that that's what the "arrangement" was? Does that change how anyone would view this if the motivation behind it was that Brady wanted 12.5 balls, not balls that were below the legal limit?

So the suspension has nothing to do with football but trashing the boss?

[Bad Morty]

So the suspension has nothing to do with football but trashing the boss?

If you had written texts like that about your employer and your employer discovered them, would you expect to remain employed?

[21isSuperman]

That's your take. I think the dismissal of the logo gauge that would validate the ideal gas law as the cause for deflation is pretty sketchy. It's shoddy research that wouldn't pass a community college science class.

Can you direct me to the page(s) on the Wells report where that information can be found?

[21isSuperman]

If you had written texts like that about your employer and your employer discovered them, would you expect to remain employed?

The text messages talk smack to Tom Brady, but not the NFL (as far as I've read, perhaps I missed some texts messages). 

[Bad Morty]

Can you direct me to the page(s) on the Wells report where that information can be found?

It's in the appendix where the Exponent "analysis" that dismisses the logo gauge readings can be found. Are you denying that the report HAD to find a way to get the readings from that gauge dismissed in order to prove the conclusion it arrived at? If all they had were the logo gauge readings, there's no case here whatsoever...and that happens to be the gauge that the ref recalled using.

[Bad Morty]

The text messages talk smack to Tom Brady, but not the NFL (as far as I've read, perhaps I missed some texts messages). 

 

The team suspended them, not the NFL (there was a report that the NFL requested they be suspended, but the NFL has denied this)

[Shane Bond]

If you had written texts like that about your employer and your employer discovered them, would you expect to remain employed?

Is your answer yes or no?.

[21isSuperman]

The team suspended them, not the NFL (there was a report that the NFL requested they be suspended, but the NFL has denied this)

I saw no texts that said anything bad about the Patriots.  Can you show me what page on the Wells report those are on?

 

It's in the appendix where the Exponent "analysis" that dismisses the logo gauge readings can be found. Are you denying that the report HAD to find a way to get the readings from that gauge dismissed in order to prove the conclusion it arrived at? If all they had were the logo gauge readings, there's no case here whatsoever...and that happens to be the gauge that the ref recalled using.

Can you show me what page that's on?  Appendix 1 is quite long

[Bad Morty]

Is your answer yes or no?.

I don't know why they were suspended. No explanation has been given. I'm guessing it's because text messages surfaced that made it clear these people were not exemplary employees.

[Bad Morty]

I saw no texts that said anything bad about the Patriots.  Can you show me what page on the Wells report those are on?

 

Can you show me what page that's on?  Appendix 1 is quite long

 

Oh I get it - you're suggesting I haven't read the report. Lol. I read it...sorry - didn't commit it to memory. Does that make the point invalid? The logo gauge gave readings that were within the ideal gas law. The other gauge did not. The logo gauge was 'rationalized' away using speculative "logic" despite the ref saying that was the gauge. This is far from OJ's DNA at the crime scene. It's a substantial reach. And now we have another research institute that thinks the same thing.

[Shane Bond]

I don't know why they were suspended. No explanation has been given. I'm guessing it's because text messages surfaced that made it clear these people were not exemplary employees.

ok so you are "guessing" . thank you.

[21isSuperman]

Oh I get it - you're suggesting I haven't read the report. Lol. I read it...sorry - didn't commit it to memory. Does that make the point invalid? The logo gauge gave readings that were within the ideal gas law. The other gauge did not. The logo gauge was 'rationalized' away using speculative "logic" despite the ref saying that was the gauge. This is far from OJ's DNA at the crime scene. It's a substantial reach. And now we have another research institute that thinks the same thing.

Actually, not at all.  I was saying that I haven't read the entire thing and I was actually hoping you could direct me to what pages on the Wells report it says the things you claim it says.  I'm not trying to say anything about whether or not you've read it.  I just want to read what parts you're talking about so I can make a more educated response

[Bad Morty]

Actually, not at all.  I was saying that I haven't read the entire thing and I was actually hoping you could direct me to what pages on the Wells report it says the things you claim it says.  I'm not trying to say anything about whether or not you've read it.  I just want to read what parts you're talking about so I can make a more educated response

ah gotcha....I'll dig it up and post it...but tomorrow. It's past my bedtime.

[21isSuperman]

ah gotcha....I'll dig it up and post it...but tomorrow. It's past my bedtime.

I hear ya.  The link to the Wells report is here, so you don't have to go searching for it tomorrow.  I'll try reading through the appendix and finding what it says about the logo guage

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

[braveheartcolt]

I'm thinking our trolling Pats fans protest too much. Way too much. Which tells me all I need to know.

[Synthetic]

Who the hell cares?

 

It's just football. A stupid game. If you want to really want to disprove stuff, then go through history and revisionism, or better yet topics that are whitewashed out of history books and myths. Real world stuff that actually counts. At the end of the day, the only people that are going to care about this junk is people that watch football. This isn't a life or death situation that any fans have control over. Time to move on.

 

There is other things in this world that need proper protesting and awareness raised. This is not one of them. 

[amfootball]

Come on now, I don't want to spend my time reading 243 pages.  Tell me what parts you have a problem with and we can go from there.

 

No one is obligated to answer anyone.  It's for discussion and sometimes, for whatever good or bad reason, some posts may go unanswered or ignored.

It really is not worth the time as there is so much to discuss. I have found getting in these discussions just takes way too much time if the report has not been read. I don't want to write out everything that is flawed as that would take all day. I just wanted you to read it for yourself, separate from the media and editorialized headlines and all that has been posted up here and give me your honest opinion. If you do not have the time, I am completely understand.

[Bad Morty]

From the new report:

 

The pressure of a football depends on the ambient temperature of the atmosphere in which it is located. Footballs inflated to 12.5 PSI at room temperature will drop in pressure when taken into the cold. The pressure in the football will increase when it is brought back into a warm room. Estimating how much the pressure in the ball will decline when the external temperature changes involves straightforward physics.

An investigation that identifies wrongdoing on the part of the Patriots should document three things: that the pressure in the Patriots balls declined more than the pressure in the Colts balls, that the pressure in the Patriots balls was significantly below the level predicted by basic physics, and that the pressure in the Colts balls was not statistically above or below the level predicted by basic physics. The confluence of these three results would represent a smoking gun. However, the statistically different reduction in pressure could result either because the Patriots balls declined more than predicted or because the Colts balls declined less than predicted. The Wells report provides no statistical analysis on this key point.

 

 

The problem here is that ideally, measurements would have been taken simultaneously for all balls, outdoors, at the end of the half, and with the same gauge that was used before the game. Instead, the balls were taken inside and measured

there, but not measured simultaneously. The pressure was checked twice for the Patriots balls (once with each gauge), after which the Patriots balls were reinflated and the Colts ball pressure was measured. Only 4 of the Colts balls (instead of all 12) were measured because halftime ended and the officials ran out of time. The fact that the officials ran out of time is highly material: it implies that the Colts balls were inside a warm room for almost the entire halftime before they were measured and thus had a chance to warm up.

[Bad Morty]

Game. Set. Match.

 

As table 6 shows, the Patriots balls do not significantly deviate from the prediction of the Ideal Gas Law in the direction that one would expect based on the Wells report’s conclusions and the NFL’s disciplinary measures. The only significant result, in fact, indicates that the Patriots balls were more inflated than the Ideal Gas Law would imply.

By contrast, as shown in table 7, all the results for the Colts are statistically significant at the 5 percent level and are higher than the bottom of the range implied by the Ideal Gas Law for all possible gauge combinations.

The difference between the Patriots pressure drop and the Colts pressure drop, then, is significant, but only because the Colts ball pressure dropped too little rather than because the Patriots ball pressure dropped too much. This can be fully explained by the order in which they were tested. When the Colts balls were sitting in the room, estimated by the Wells report to be between 71 and 74 degrees Fahrenheit, for much of the duration of the 13-minute halftime, their pressure rose (Wells Jr., Karp, and Reisner 2015, XII). The Patriots balls, by contrast, were tested earlier on.

[wig]

I'd buy this theory:

1) Brady asked for 12.5 balls as usual

2) Refs inflated the balls higher than that...we know from the Wells report that they aren't too rigid about this, so those balls might have been closer to 13 when they left the refs room

3) McNally takes them to the bathroom. "takes the top off"...a violation no doubt, and one that should be penalized

4) But because the refs over-inflated the balls, the action McNally took resulted in balls pretty much at the 12.5 level Brady requested to begin with by the time he leaves the bathroom...i.e. McNally's job was to get the balls to the 12.5 he wanted...legal balls, but tampered with.

5) Then mother nature takes it's course during the first half deflating the balls further

That left the league with the awkward situation of KNOWING that the Pats were doing this but NOT knowing that the refs weren't inflating the balls properly to begin with OR that the cold would explain deflation more than they thought....

The refs don't touch the psi unless it's outside of the parameters when they test them. Doh.

[Bad Morty]

The refs don't touch the psi unless it's outside of the parameters when they test them. Doh.

no that's completely false. The refs routinely add or take out air based on feel alone. It's anything but an exact science, as we've learned from the Wells report.

 

But none of that matters anymore. The scientific conclusion of the Wells report relies on the fact that the Patriots balls, when measured at halftime, had deflated by more than the Colts balls had deflated. This new report proves that that is exactly what the ideal gas law would predict would happen given the fact that the Colts balls sat in a warm room for 15 minutes before they were measured.

 

Again - I don't expect a lot of objectivity among this crowd, but the reality is that the science has always been inconclusive and flawed. If you can't scientifically prove that balls were deflated, that takes a major bite out of the circumstantial case that was built around text messages.

[Cynjin]

I don't know if this was mentioned but the lead author of that "study" was born and raised in what state?  I think we can all guess where.

[pgt_rob]

Those punishments are staying. Kraft knew the truth later on, that's why he took them like a champ.

[wig]

Those punishments are staying. Kraft knew the truth later on, that's why he took them like a champ.

Yeah, it's pretty silly to argue against it when the Pats have already admitted guilt.

[Bad Morty]

Yeah, it's pretty silly to argue against it when the Pats have already admitted guilt.

When did the Pats admit guilt again? I must have missed that. I recall an NFL owner not want to risk taking his own league through an expensive court proceeding that would have cost him more than the million dollar fine. But I never saw anybody admit guilt, and for good reason...nobody deflated any footballs. The science proves that.

[wig]

When did the Pats admit guilt again? I must have missed that. I recall an NFL owner not want to risk taking his own league through an expensive court proceeding that would have cost him more than the million dollar fine. But I never saw anybody admit guilt, and for good reason...nobody deflated any footballs. The science proves that.

 

Accepting the punishment hurt is brand, which is much more important than a legal battle to him.  By accepting the punishment, he admitted guilt.  

[Bad Morty]

Accepting the punishment hurt is brand, which is much more important than a legal battle to him.  By accepting the punishment, he admitted guilt.  

eh...that's your narrative because you have an agenda you don't want to vary off of. If I thought the Pats deflated footballs, I'd have no problem saying "they deflated footballs"...but there's no scientific evidence suggesting that the balls were tampered with. I believe science, not agendas.

[Bubbz]

It really is not worth the time as there is so much to discuss. I have found getting in these discussions just takes way too much time if the report has not been read. I don't want to write out everything that is flawed as that would take all day. I just wanted you to read it for yourself, separate from the media and editorialized headlines and all that has been posted up here and give me your honest opinion. If you do not have the time, I am completely understand.

you have time to read the 240 page reports but not time to type out a quick summary of why it was "garbage"? Makes perfect sense

[Gramz]

Accepting the punishment hurt is brand, which is much more important than a legal battle to him. By accepting the punishment, he admitted guilt.

This.

Kraft is a smart man. By accepting the punishment, without exactly saying "we plead guilty", allows him to save face with the Pats fans. IMO, he knew there was guilt, didn't see winning in court, so he took the punishment and chose to move on.

Once again, IMO, this allows the Pats fans to say "he never admitted guilt, so they must be innocent" and leaves the rest of the Country viewing this clearly as guilt. Everyone will see it as it best suits their agenda.

[Swan Ronson]

Groundhog Day.