NFL/Patriots Deflategate compromise UPDATE: Pats will not appeal

[Superman]

absolutely...I think he referred to himself as the "deflator" because he was in charge of deflating the balls.

 

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2073728-ted-wells-report-deflategate.html

p.47, last sentence in the top paragraph

 

"All of the Patriots witnesses interviewed stated that McNally has no role in the process of preparing footballs for use on game day."

 

Care to try again?

 

Or if that one is too hard, maybe care to explain what he could possibly have gone to ESPN about back on 5/9/14? Or why Jastremski said McNally "must have a lot of stress trying to get them done"? 

[Superman]

I read the whole thing...that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

So if a Patriots employee stood on the sidelines and in plain view let air out of the footballs, that would be worthy of just a warning? By saying that two instances of illegal ball manipulation are not even comparable simply because one was done in the open and one was done secretly, it implies that you believe the end result isn't really a big deal since one instance simply got a warning. It's starting to seem that people are more offended by the possible deception of the act and not the act itself. In the end it sounds like everyone is angry and overly sensitive to the possibility that they were lied to, and not really concerned the integrity of the game.

 

No it doesn't. 

 

The point is that warming footballs in cold weather isn't seen as an attempt to manipulate the air pressure in the footballs. It's an attempt to warm the footballs. The people who were doing that may or may not have been aware that it was against the rules -- it's not likely that they did, as they made no attempt to hide what they were doing -- but they were told not to do it, and didn't do it anymore. 

 

If McNally took the footballs into the bathroom to release air from them, after they had been inspected, it is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. All this 'you guys don't care about the integrity of the game' stuff is a not-so-clever deflection that doesn't change the obviousness of the situation, that the Patriots snuck approved footballs into the bathroom and tampered with them. 

[Superman]

Occam's razor supports the theory that a guy took a bag of footballs into a bathroom to hastily stick a needle into a bunch of footballs risking damaging/rupturing the valve in one of them and being caught red-handed in order to shave a few 10ths of a pound of PSI off them? That makes no sense at all.

 

Yes, because that's a simpler explanation than that the Patriots pumped the footballs in a warm/hot room so that they would be approved by the refs a few minutes later, yet still come to a lower PSI post approval. 

 

Just because what McNally did was dumb doesn't mean he didn't do it. It's obvious from the text messages and the interviews with personnel that McNally deflated the footballs after they were inspected, and the dates of the text messages make it pretty obvious that he had done this before. 

[dynasty13]

No it doesn't. 

 

The point is that warming footballs in cold weather isn't seen as an attempt to manipulate the air pressure in the footballs. It's an attempt to warm the footballs. The people who were doing that may or may not have been aware that it was against the rules -- it's not likely that they did, as they made no attempt to hide what they were doing -- but they were told not to do it, and didn't do it anymore. 

 

If McNally took the footballs into the bathroom to release air from them, after they had been inspected, it is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. All this 'you guys don't care about the integrity of the game' stuff is a not-so-clever deflection that doesn't change the obviousness of the situation, that the Patriots snuck approved footballs into the bathroom and tampered with them. 

 

Forget about air pressure...they were trying to manipulate the footballs illegally to essentially get a better grip, right? 

 

And what was the result? As you said...they were told not to and didn't do it anymore. It really could have been that easy. The desired results were no different in the two situations, the only difference was the way in which the teams allegedly went about trying to manipulate the footballs. Why was one team simply given a warning and the other immediately labeled as cheaters?

[Bad Morty]

Yes, because that's a simpler explanation than that the Patriots pumped the footballs in a warm/hot room so that they would be approved by the refs a few minutes later, yet still come to a lower PSI post approval. 

 

Just because what McNally did was dumb doesn't mean he didn't do it. It's obvious from the text messages and the interviews with personnel that McNally deflated the footballs after they were inspected, and the dates of the text messages make it pretty obvious that he had done this before. 

 

But not as elegantly simple as "the balls deflated as the ideal gas law would predict based on the measurements of the gauge that the referee recalled using".

[Moose Of Woe]

That's a pretty good compromise.

 

Kraft: I demand an apology blah blah blah puff puff puff

 

Goodell: No. You cheated. Again. I didn't bail you out this time. You want to take it to court and see what else we're obviously going to dig up on you? Shut up and roll over. Back off or things will get exponentially worse for you.

 

Kraft: *Rolls over* "For the good of the league."

 

 

Kraft and the Pats threw a bunch of nonsense on the wall hoping something would stick. Any sense of credibility they had went out the window with "the deflator" regarding weight loss. All Brady had to do was:

 

1: Not cheat in the first place

2: Admit it, lie (he's good at that) and say he didn't realize it was that big a deal, and he maybe gets a one game suspension and little public backlash.

[Superman]

Forget about air pressure...they were trying to manipulate the footballs illegally to essentially get a better grip, right? 

 

And what was the result? As you said...they were told not to and didn't do it anymore. It really could have been that easy. The desired results were no different in the two situations, the only difference was the way in which the teams allegedly went about trying to manipulate the footballs. Why was one team simply given a warning and the other immediately labeled as cheaters?

 

Because one appeared to be a spur of the moment attempt to improve the grip on the footballs. You throw the word "illegally" in there, but the point is that it doesn't seem like they thought it was illegal, or else they wouldn't have been doing it when and where they were. Wiping the footballs with a towel on the sidelines is 'manipulating footballs to get a better grip,' but it's not against the rules. Warming the footballs is against the rules, which they didn't seem to realize. 

 

And on the other hand, you have the Patriots, who evidently went out of their way to sneak footballs away, directly release air from them where no one else could see, after the footballs had been approved by the refs. 

 

One is absentmindedly walking out of the store without paying for something. The other is stealing goods out the back door. Let's not try to make them the same. They aren't.

[Bad Morty]

Because one appeared to be a spur of the moment attempt to improve the grip on the footballs. You throw the word "illegally" in there, but the point is that it doesn't seem like they thought it was illegal, or else they wouldn't have been doing it when and where they were. Wiping the footballs with a towel on the sidelines is 'manipulating footballs to get a better grip,' but it's not against the rules. Warming the footballs is against the rules, which they didn't seem to realize. 

 

And on the other hand, you have the Patriots, who evidently went out of their way to sneak footballs away, directly release air from them where no one else could see, after the footballs had been approved by the refs. 

 

One is absentmindedly walking out of the store without paying for something. The other is stealing goods out the back door. Let's not try to make them the same. They aren't.

The pressure of the Patriots footballs measured within the expected range based on the ideal gas law based on the gauge the referee recalls using. You have to make the leap that Coleman's memory was top notch on every aspect of this incident except that one thing to believe otherwise. Occam's razor...

[Superman]

But not as elegantly simple as "the balls deflated as the ideal gas law would predict based on the measurements of the gauge that the referee recalled using".

 

And again, it falls to you to explain "the deflator," "I'm not going to ESPN.... yet," 'Tom says you must have a lot of stress trying to get footballs done,' etc., all in reference to an individual who is not at all involved in the preparation of footballs in any official capacity. 

 

And that's before we get to the fact that no one outside of New England agrees with that particular criticism of the Wells Report. 

[Bad Morty]

And again, it falls to you to explain "the deflator," "I'm not going to ESPN.... yet," 'Tom says you must have a lot of stress trying to get footballs done,' etc., all in reference to an individual who is not at all involved in the preparation of footballs in any official capacity. 

 

And that's before we get to the fact that no one outside of New England agrees with that particular criticism of the Wells Report. 

 That's not a criticism of the Wells report...that IS the Wells report. Go read it...Exponent themselves states that the pressures when measured by the gauge Coleman believes he used fell within the normal range where no tampering would be suspected. That's 100% factual. What follows from there is a lot of convoluted lawyer speak that says "Coleman is wrong about which gauge he used"...if you had an objective bone in your body, you would find that to be the most sketchy element of this entire circus.

[-JJ-]

I know your right. Just the thought of not being able to see them puts some in a frame of mind that there was more. The average Joe wouldn't even know what he was seeing and the illegal part of it.

Yeah I wish they had kept them all up. As you say no see = evil   Even the first one, the jets, Goodell didn't want shown so that also came down then he destroyed them all. My bet is they still exist with Fox Glazier.

[Moose Of Woe]

...if you had an objective bone in your body, you would find that to be the most sketchy element of this entire circus.

The "deflator".

[Bad Morty]

The "deflator".

 

yep. I believe McNally was responsible for lowering the pressure in the balls...then submitting them to the refs and hoping that they would give them a feel and pass them for play. That's what "the deflator" would be expected to do.

[Superman]

The pressure of the Patriots footballs measured within the expected range based on the ideal gas law based on the gauge the referee recalls using. You have to make the leap that Coleman's memory was top notch on every aspect of this incident except that one thing to believe otherwise. Occam's razor...

 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't have to make any leap based on Coleman's memory to know that McNally took the footballs into the bathroom.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Hey that is more than the Vikings and Panthers got for violating the same rule.  You sound like the voice or reason.  

***

***

 

But, but... Vikings weren't deflating the balls, the weather did. And we weren't trying to illegally warm them to give us an advantage. It's just they just noticed they were quite soft, and a player with an extensive science background and well versed in the Ideal Gas Law went running up to the equipment manager and was  yelling   "Ya gotta heat these balls up!  Because of the cold weather they're soft, and under the legal limit!  Get 'em near those sideline heaters before we get in trouble for playing with illegal balls!"

 

***

***

This episode of "If Vikings fans had acted like Pats fans" brought to you by-

[Gramz]

I am at the beach and havn't read much here the past 5 days.

So....fill me in. If I'm reading this correctly the Pats are taking their punishment and moving on without appealing?

[Moose Of Woe]

yep. I believe McNally was responsible for lowering the pressure in the balls...then submitting them to the refs and hoping that they would give them a feel and pass them for play. That's what "the deflator" would be expected to do.

Well, according to the Patriots themselves, the deflator relates to weight loss. You don't think, objectively, that's the sketchiest part of this whole thing?

[Yehoodi]

The pressure of the Patriots footballs measured within the expected range based on the ideal gas law based on the gauge the referee recalls using. You have to make the leap that Coleman's memory was top notch on every aspect of this incident except that one thing to believe otherwise. Occam's razor...

From my recollection of the Wells Report was that 8 of the 11 can be accounted for in the drop in temperature, but could be mistaken.   Just speaking of temperature only.

[Jaric]

Yeah, when he assumed the punishment would fit the alleged crime...

When it went far and above what was even remotely reasonable, he said 'Ya know what? For something that wasn't even proven, uh uh, not happening.'

That or this past week has simply been pandering to a very angry fanbase.

[Superman]

 That's not a criticism of the Wells report...that IS the Wells report. Go read it...Exponent themselves states that the pressures when measured by the gauge Coleman believes he used fell within the normal range where no tampering would be suspected. That's 100% factual. What follows from there is a lot of convoluted lawyer speak that says "Coleman is wrong about which gauge he used"...if you had an objective bone in your body, you would find that to be the most sketchy element of this entire circus.

 

You're the arbiter of who/what is and isn't objective here? Wouldn't you have to be objective to have a relevant opinion of my objectivity? 

[Yehoodi]

***

***

 

But, but... Vikings weren't deflating the balls, the weather did. And we weren't trying to illegally warm them to give us an advantage. It's just they just noticed they were quite soft, and a player with an extensive science background and well versed in the Ideal Gas Law went running up to the equipment manager and was  yelling   "Ya gotta heat these balls up!  Because of the cold weather they're soft, and under the legal limit!  Get 'em near those sideline heaters before we get in trouble for playing with illegal balls!"

 

***

***

This episode of "If Vikings fans had acted like Pats fans" brought to you by-

 

first off I like your cereal box.

 

Second, there are two issues.  One is the inflation of the balls and the other is playing with a cold ball as opposed to a warmer ball.  As for the former we can talk all day about any advantage or disadvantage on either side of 12.5-13.5 range.  Regarding the latter, if a team gets to handle a ball at 56 degrees (which has been warmed) there a good argument that one has an advantage over one that has to handle a ball at 24 degree.  This is why included in the prohibition is both tampering with inflation (former issue) and tampering with the condition of the ball (i.e a hard cold rock or a softer warmer ball).   

[Yehoodi]

I am at the beach and havn't read much here the past 5 days.

So....fill me in. If I'm reading this correctly the Pats are taking their punishment and moving on without appealing?

 

Per the Patriot Way, Bob Kraft put the interest of the league over his team.   What an owner.   Patriot Way baby.  We should all revel in the integrity of the Patriots.  Just saying.  

[Moose Of Woe]

Per the Patriot Way, Bob Kraft put the interest of the league over his team.   What an owner.   Patriot Way baby.  We should all revel in the integrity of the Patriots.  Just saying.  

My sides have left orbit.

[ColtsBlueFL]

first off I like your cereal box.

 

Second, there are two issues.  One is the inflation of the balls and the other is playing with a cold ball as opposed to a warmer ball.  As for the former we can talk all day about any advantage or disadvantage on either side of 12.5-13.5 range.  Regarding the latter, if a team gets to handle a ball at 56 degrees (which has been warmed) there a good argument that one has an advantage over one that has to handle a ball at 24 degree.  This is why included in the prohibition is both tampering with inflation (former issue) and tampering with the condition of the ball (i.e a hard cold rock or a softer warmer ball).   

 

Of course, but that cheating and there would be an advantage, so, if a Vikes fan was like a Pats fan, they would argue they were not trying to cheat and get an advantage, just trying to make sure the minimum PSI limit was met so the balls were legal!  Aiye?  Ya see now..    heh heh heh...

[OffensivelyPC]

But not as elegantly simple as "the balls deflated as the ideal gas law would predict based on the measurements of the gauge that the referee recalled using".

If that could have possibly been true, then yeah.  But since its not...

[OffensivelyPC]

 That's not a criticism of the Wells report...that IS the Wells report. Go read it...Exponent themselves states that the pressures when measured by the gauge Coleman believes he used fell within the normal range where no tampering would be suspected. That's 100% factual. What follows from there is a lot of convoluted lawyer speak that says "Coleman is wrong about which gauge he used"...if you had an objective bone in your body, you would find that to be the most sketchy element of this entire circus.

Uhh, the Wells report didn't even mention an man with the name Coleman.

[Gramz]

Per the Patriot Way, Bob Kraft put the interest of the league over his team. What an owner. Patriot Way baby. We should all revel in the integrity of the Patriots. Just saying.

Well I do think it is in the best interest of the league to not drag this out any further. I also think it is the best interest of the Pats. I don't think there was any way they would win an appeal.

I like you, Yehoodi, and I understand your loyalty, but we disagree on the integrity of the Pats.

[GoColts8818]

I am at the beach and havn't read much here the past 5 days.

So....fill me in. If I'm reading this correctly the Pats are taking their punishment and moving on without appealing?

yes but Brady's appeal is moving forward.

[GoColts8818]

Per the Patriot Way, Bob Kraft put the interest of the league over his team. What an owner. Patriot Way baby. We should all revel in the integrity of the Patriots. Just saying.

there is a lot of irony in a pats fan telling us to revel in the integrity of the Pats after they just got busted for cheating twice...

[Moose Of Woe]

there is a lot of irony in a pats fan telling us to revel in the integrity of the Pats after they just got busted for cheating twice...

I'm pretty sure he was joking. At least I hope so....if not that makes it even funnier.

[GoColts8818]

I'm pretty sure he was joking. At least I hope so....if not that makes it even funnier.

i hope he's joking too, if so then this a pre-emptive sorry to yehoodi. Sarcasm doesn't always translate well to the Internet and I say that as someone who uses it a lot myself.

[dynasty13]

Uhh, the Wells report didn't even mention an man with the name Coleman.

 

You know he meant Walt Anderson...Superman made the same error repeatedly last week.

[Synthetic]

I hope this is for real and Goodell showed Kraft who's boss. If he truly did, he's earned my respect. 

 

Kraft should have done like Tom Benson after Bountygate and kept quiet. I don't care what Saints fans say either about wanting Benson to make a clown of himself. I don't like my owner either but I like a quiet one a lot more than I do clown that thinks he rules the world cause he's a pampered billionaire people respect just cause he has money. 

[dynasty13]

And again, it falls to you to explain "the deflator," "I'm not going to ESPN.... yet," 'Tom says you must have a lot of stress trying to get footballs done,' etc., all in reference to an individual who is not at all involved in the preparation of footballs in any official capacity. 

 

And that's before we get to the fact that no one outside of New England agrees with that particular criticism of the Wells Report. 

 

Here's what's starting to * me off....you guys keep saying 'no one outside of New England agrees' or 'Pats fans are the only ones who don't understand logic'....but when some analyst DOES write a column citing some of our concerns, or someone on tv DOES attempt to explain some of the issues with the report, you all blow it off as some Patriots bias and refuse to even consider some of their opinions as possible. I maintain that it is not that crazy for us to question some things in that report...but you all took your hate for the Patriots and used the report to make the leaps needed for you to automatically think that there is no room to question and that sucks. 

 

The rest of the country hates the Patriots. They have for the better part of 10 years now...this whole situation an enormous wet dream for each and every one of them. You guys have said it yourselves...they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt...and although that may be true, that doesn't do much to prove your objectivity on the matter. As biased as you think we are as blind Patriot lovers, you guys are just as biased as Patriot haters. Your minds were made up the Monday after the AFCCG, and I'm willing to bet that even if the Wells report concluded that it was more probable than not that Tom Brady was not aware, it wouldnt in the least bit change your opinion of him or the Patriots. The damage was done the second misinformation started leaking out about the situation.

[SteelCityColt]

You're the arbiter of who/what is and isn't objective here? Wouldn't you have to be objective to have a relevant opinion of my objectivity?

[dw49]

We'll see...I have a feeling the next shoe to drop here is going to be Brady's suspension getting lifted. This press conference sounded like deal making...I.e "We'll stop demolishing the report Wells produced, you give us back our QB".

 

 

Ok morty... we'll go by what you AM and virulent now think as you guys have been so spot on during all of this.

 

Still waiting for the proof to come out that the Cots actually had the only deflated ball in their possession and were responsible for deflating it. 

[dw49]

You're the arbiter of who/what is and isn't objective here? Wouldn't you have to be objective to have a relevant opinion of my objectivity? 

 

 

How bout them Pat fans ? Fighting down to the brink of insanity... Excuse me while I bust a gut and then slam by head against a brick wall. This is just so incredible....

[dgambill]

I understand your point about trying to impose a separate penalty for non cooperation.  There is no argument from my end.  My only point was that in 2007 when we were found to be taping, in violating of the rules in Goodell's opinion as to what is meant by "playing in a game", all the NFL had was that one tape violation.  BB through his correspondence with Goodell provided the evidence that he had been doing it since 2000, it just came down whether or not the rule meant the instant game or future games.   

 

So in 2007 all the NFL had was one violation, we provided voluntarily other occurrences and then got a 2x4 knocked over our head.   So yah I hear yah about being forthright, but we as pats fans and team have done things both ways, we tell them everything and get smoked, we then tell them to prove their case and still get smoked.  

 

So when some talk to me about "coming clean" as a part of the not getting a higher fine, I just are making a point coming clean does not always work in your favor.   

How do you know what was discussed as a possible penalty for spygate? How do you know it wasn't possibly going to be multiple picks and suspensions for Belicheck etc. Maybe they DID get a lesser penalty. I do see inconsistancies with how the Pats were dealt with but the cover up and not providing evidence is what most of the penalties are for imo. Had Brady cooperated etc I believe the pats and Brady both get hit with a fine. I think the POINT the Pats should take....is DON'T break rules. Don't come close to breaking the rules....or perhaps how I try to live my life which is to obstain from all APPERANCES of evil. When Brady and the QBs came to the league to use their own balls the league complied....how hard would it have been for Brady to ask the league to have the balls at 12.5 psi for game day? If he would have worked with the league this never would have happened. Instead he took a short cut and had tweedle dee and twiddle dumb pull off the stupidest scheme I've ever seen....all because they didn't do things the right way.

 

Possibly but I doubt it. 

 

For me anything that happened in the AFCCG, if anything, happened before the game.   Meaning the pats handed balls in that were at a level that caused the results in the Wells Report.   I won't get into my thoughts on the Wells Report and science, but if the balls were at some point at room temperature were out of spec it happened before the pats gave the balls to the refs.  Something btw I mentioned in January I think is a violation of a rule, just not the one in question here. 

We may never know until someone speaks out but the guy went into a bathroom he said....that if I'm correct didn't even have a urinal so everyone is left to believe whatever they like about what happened....and when the balls came back underinflated...so much so that even past weather conditions it left the investigator no choice but to rule that human tampering had occured. The benefit I think is small....the incident is just so beyond stupid....but the lying and cover up....reeks. Handled in a different manner with a different organization etc...this blows over and fines are handed out. The severity of the penalties are proportional to the cover up and manner in which the organization and employees have not cooperated with the league. Consequences thus compounded.

[OffensivelyPC]

You know he meant Walt Anderson...Superman made the same error repeatedly last week.

Yeah, but when he's asking us to buy his recitation of the Wells report, it is just that much harder to wonder if he's correctly recanting it - which by the way, he's not.

 

This....

 

The pressure of the Patriots footballs measured within the expected range based on the ideal gas law based on the gauge the referee recalls using. You have to make the leap that Coleman's memory was top notch on every aspect of this incident except that one thing to believe otherwise. Occam's razor...

 

Is a flat out incorrect recitation of the report.  The report, and specifically, Exponent, made it abundantly clear that the ideal gas law cannot explain the drop in the Patriots footballs, regardless of what gauge was used.  Exponent, page X, paragraph 2.  It said the only way the ideal gas law could have been in the expected range was dependent on several factors, the combination of which is "unrealistic."  Exponent Page XIII, Paragraph 10.

[dw49]

Per the Patriot Way, Bob Kraft put the interest of the league over his team.   What an owner.   Patriot Way baby.  We should all revel in the integrity of the Patriots.  Just saying.  

 

 

Or you can go by this yehoodi.......

 

 

The reports from ESPN on Outside the Lines and NFL Live and NFL Insiders....

 

 

 

-- That Kraft didn't find the level of support from the other owners he thought he would....

 

-- That other owners reminded him that the reason Goodell has the power he does is that he -- Kraft -- helped make it so.

 

-- That challenging the league in court was very bad for the NFL.    And that a challenge to the league weakens the office of the Commissioner which is NOT in anyone's interest.

 

-- That other owners have accepted their penalties for their teams (Cleveland and Atlanta most recently) and didn't fight back even if they didn't like it.

 

-- That the idea of Kraft compromising on his team so that Brady could get a reduced suspension might happen,  but no one on any of the three shows thought it was a slam dunk.    They thought it was possible.   But no one thought the suspension would be eliminated.    Any who thought it would be reduced thought it would go to two games.   

 

-- The NFLPA says it is still going forward with their appeal on behalf of Brady.....

 

I'll update more if I learn more.....

 

Interesting day.....

 

p.s. --  within the last 24 hours the Pats floated the idea that the reason they suspended the two equipment guys is because the NFL advised them to do so.    The NFL has denied that.

• pgt_rob likes this
•  
• Like This

• Quote
• MultiQuote
   
•