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HtownColt

DeflateGate: Brady suspension expected (mega merge / updated)

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Yeah there wasn't any deflated balls used against the Seahawks because the accusation had been made and deflategate was well underway during the SB. Plus the balls were inflated and watched by actual NFL personnel rather than Sea and NE team personnel as they do at every SB. I hope this public shame straightens the Pats up as there is no need for cheaters in the league. Just put your helmet on and play 60 mins of cheat free football. That is all you need to do is that so hard?

Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

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Here is my feeling on this. 

 

The report itself will do little to change the mind of many who formed their opinion on Day 1 of the investigation. There are people on both sides of the argument with very strong opinions and we were all waiting for proof one way or the other. The problem with the report is that it left just enough for each side to continue that same argument by using terminology like 'more probable than not'...it leaves that little bit for it's defenders to cling to because in the end, still, nothing was proven. And this is why I think it will be difficult to punish.

 

Do I think Brady knew about this and was involved? Yes I do...but the fact that he didnt hand his phone over isnt what makes me believe that. That isn't proof. Unfortunately the report stopped just short of actually saying that he did it, and that is what makes it difficult to punish. I will be very surprised if there is any type of suspension...a fine maybe, but how do you suspend a player for 'probably' doing something?

 

Lol, that's because we've been provided proof with that report that NE Cheaters did exactly what we called them out on. 

 

Denial is the first step in the grieving process, but you'll eventually get past it. 

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Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

C'mon!  Nobody is arguing that the Pats aren't an incredibly talented organization.  And, nobody is saying everyone on the team is a demon.  But, cheaters suck!

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Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

Yea Brady never told his buddies Gronk and Edelman, they never could tell the difference.

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My one regret is that after a long friendship on here, you and I nearly came to blows over this, due to the fact that I was very outspoken with my opinion back in the very beginning.

 

 

Well I wouldn't say "nearly came to blows"... I haven't been in a fight of any kind since college.  :D  I never thought less of you or anyone though, and I hope that you can say the same for me. We won't always agree, that's life. But that won't stop me from thinking highly of you and plenty others around here! 

 

I'll be interested to read more of the report. But like I said, I don't think any conclusion from Wells without hard evidence would sway any opinions. People are exactly where they were with it on January 19th. 

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Let me get this out right up front:

I don't hate the Patriots.

I'm not "jealous" of their success.

I'm not a hater.

Everyone doesn't "hate" a winner... there are a lot of winning teams that we admire even though we "hate" losing to them.

 

This flat out turns my stomach.  As a long time fan of the game this is a big deal to me.   If it were my QB I wouldn't be making excuses or LOLing it off as a certain Pats fan here has been doing all day.  

 

It's wrong.

It destroys the integrity of the game.

You aren't a winner when you're willing to cheat to win (no matter whether or not the cheating "helped" or not)

 

Money doesn't matter to Brady - he should be suspended for a year.  Period.  If Sean Payton served a year for what his team did, Brady deserves to do likewise.  This will turn out to be a multi-year issue and I wouldn't be surprised if the Patriots vaunted stats on not fumbling suddenly go right to where every other team is.

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I had no doubts that it was done intentionally and I suppose it's good that the word is out now. I'm more curious about the loud chorus of Colts haters that were so certain that this was really Grigson trying to set up the pure Patriots. Where are they now? 

 

Anyway I do not like the lying cheaters and I'm annoyed with their fans trying to tell me to kiss their rings. 

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Try this:

I come into my living room and see saw someone drew on my wall with a green marker.

My four year old is standing there holding a green marker and has drawn on the walls before.

The markings also happen to be made by someone who is about my child's height.

Even though I didn't see him do it I can conclude that in all likely hood my kid drew on the wall because the facts around the scene support it.

When I go to punish him for it I am probably not going to let him off the hook when he goes my imaginary friend did it and you can't prove he didn't.

This isn't a court of law where you have to be guilty beyond reasonable doubt. This report pretty much says we believe the Pats did this and these three people are the ones who are most responsible. Now it's up to Goodell to take this imformation and decide what if any punishment is warranted based on its findings.

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Reading the report now Wells did a very thorough job, Very well presented, I think some form of punishment will be handed down and it should be because the rules are the rules...with that said Im not about to make some big deal about this like some because the pressure of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get wiped off the field. Though reading some of the conversations between McNally and Jastremski is rather disturbing, They both seem to take a bit to much enjoyment in pumps and needles and balls...Creepy

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first bold: no, no it does not. the evidence is circumstantial, ask aaron hernandez about it.

 

second bold: did you read the other texts? also lawyers have to write in legal-speak, can't straight up say "yea he def did it based on what I know". an accountant does the same thing in an audit report. he's going to get punished, so will his team because it's clear they cheated.

 

You should probably add those asterisks to your signature about now...

 

These things are carefully worded...very carefully worded. The report went far enough to implicate but stopped short of convicting. 

 

That's the point Kraft was trying to make in his statement...we were all waiting for definitive proof but in the end all we got was 'here's a list of things that makes us believe he did...so...it sure seems that he probably did it'.

 

As I said before, I am not denying anything...I simply made the point that the report stopped just short of doing what we were hoping it would, and that leaves it juuuuuust open enough for people on both sides to continue arguing about it.

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I don't care if they get punished or not.  I'm just glad everyone knows Brady is a cheater.   

 

I think both teams should use the same NFL furnished football.

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Why does this still matter? NFL.com had the report up probably 5 whole minutes later than somebody else. Whoopidy doo!

 

 

It doesn't matter to anyone else here but me....   my background is working the media, so it's a big deal to me only.

 

I don't expect anyone else here to care.

 

But it wasn't 5 minutes.    It was more like 35 minutes that ESPN owned the story.    In the journalism world,  that's a big deal.

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I had no doubts that it was done intentionally and I suppose it's good that the word is out now. I'm more curious about the loud chorus of Colts haters that were so certain that this was really Grigson trying to set up the pure Patriots. Where are they now? 

 

Anyway I do not like the lying cheaters and I'm annoyed with their fans trying to tell me to kiss their rings. 

I'm proud of Grigson during this entire process from expressing concern to the NFL to remaining quiet despite all the media questions and attacks on him.

 

Hating Grigson for this is like hating the girl who blew the whistle on Enron while Skilling, Lay, and Fastow were making off like bandits and everyone who invested their 401k's got screwed.

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Torrey Smith had a great tweet on it "Water is wet"

 

no love lost between Bmore and the Pats for sure.

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Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

Yes and it makes the infraction even worse in my eyes , time for the Comisch to grows some kahunas and do something . Oh but him and Kraft are buds , so guess what nothing of consequence will happen !

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The verbiage was intentional regarding for Brady I think for this reason. No real proof. I can't imagine a suspension without more than a probable and likely.

 

There are back & forth texts that implicate Brady . according to Polian earlier Probable is all thats needed the verbage is NFL speak for guilty .

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https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

VIII. Conclusions Regarding the Game Balls Used

by the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game

Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and

summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is more probable than not that New

England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were

involved in a deliberate attemptt to circumvent those rules. In particular, we conclude that it ismore probable than not that Jim McNally and John Jastremski participated in a deliberate plan to

circumvent the rules by releasing air from Patriots game balls after the examination of the

footballs by NFL game officials at the AFC Championship Game. We believe that McNally and

Jastremski were aware that the inflation level of the Patriots game balls following pre-game

inspection by the game officials would be approximately 12.5 psi and planned for McNally to

deflate the balls below that level following the pre-game inspection using a needle provided by

Jastremski. Based on the evidence, we also have concluded that it is more probable than not that

Tom Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and

Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls.

73

We do not believe that the evidence establishes that any other Patriots personnel

participated in or had knowledge of the violation of the Playing Rules or the deliberate effort to

circumvent the rules described above. In particular, we do not believe there was any wrongdoing

or knowledge of wrongdoing by Patriots ownership, Head Coach Belichick or any other Patriots

coach in the matters investigated. We also do not believe there was any wrongdoing or

knowledge of wrongdoing by Patriots Head Equipment Manager Dave Schoenfeld.

You bolded the Brady part

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There are back & forth texts that implicate Brady . according to Polian earlier Probable is all thats needed the verbage is NFL speak for guilty .

I love how some people seem to think that this is happening inside a criminal court of law.

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The difference was in the 30 minutes before NFL.com posted their story, complete with the report, the statement from Goodell, and the rebuttal from Kraft. 

 

Up to that point, we had a bunch of tweets from info people like Schefter on ESPN's sidebar crawl, and eventually a brief story sharing the conclusion of the findings. NFL.com's initial post was much more complete than anything ESPN had up to that point. At least, that's what I saw. 

 

I think you'll find that I was posting Kraft comments from ESPN before the NFL Network had anything....

 

Once quotes were available to NFL Network, they ran with them -- great.    But ESPN had some of those quotes sooner and had the other quotes at the same time.

 

As best I can tell,  your objection is the NFL Network did a better job because they presented the whole story at once and not in pieces as ESPN did.

 

I guess that's personal preference...    but that's NOT the way most stories are delivered....

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Here is my feeling on this. 

 

The report itself will do little to change the mind of many who formed their opinion on Day 1 of the investigation. There are people on both sides of the argument with very strong opinions and we were all waiting for proof one way or the other. The problem with the report is that it left just enough for each side to continue that same argument by using terminology like 'more probable than not'...it leaves that little bit for it's defenders to cling to because in the end, still, nothing was proven. And this is why I think it will be difficult to punish.

 

Do I think Brady knew about this and was involved? Yes I do...but the fact that he didnt hand his phone over isnt what makes me believe that. That isn't proof. Unfortunately the report stopped just short of actually saying that he did it, and that is what makes it difficult to punish. I will be very surprised if there is any type of suspension...a fine maybe, but how do you suspend a player for 'probably' doing something?

 

The investigator was a lawyer.  There wasn't a trial.  No one out and out confessed to anything.  That is how Tom Wells' going to portray the information.  Let me inform you that in lawyer-speak, he thinks Tom Terrific is guilty.  When they say "more likely than not" that's what Mr. Wells means.

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These things are carefully worded...very carefully worded. The report went far enough to implicate but stopped short of convicting. 

 

That's the point Kraft was trying to make in his statement...we were all waiting for definitive proof but in the end all we got was 'here's a list of things that makes us believe he did...so...it sure seems that he probably did it'.

 

As I said before, I am not denying anything...I simply made the point that the report stopped just short of doing what we were hoping it would, and that leaves it juuuuuust open enough for people on both sides to continue arguing about it.

You don't sound like a smart person. Kraft just said he's going to accept whatever punishment is coming, he just wants it to go away because, unlike you and your fans, he knows this stinks to high heaven of cheating by his golden boy. Would love to see Brady's phone records, would love to see him testify under oath. Brady is guilty, everyone knows this. If you read the report you would realize there is absolutely nothing to argue about. Your hero is a lying, cheating fraud. Just admit it.

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Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis would agree with you, but the league didn't see it that way for them

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It's not reaching. It's called drawing conclusions. When you have a preponderance of evidence, you can do that. You don't need a smoking gun.

 

And ironically, fans and media types that are undermining the conclusions published in this report are known to jump to conclusions and offer implausible explanations/scenarios all the time, then get mad when they're called out for it. Wells and his team interviewed 60(?) people, relied on an abundance of sources and expert analysis, and collected tons of evidence dating back months. It's not speculative, nor is it a reach, to say what this report is saying.

Obviously you must not know what connotations means. The wording in the report has a lot of it. All the most likelys and highly probables' eventually add up and make it SOUND like they are reaching at times therefore it has connotations that make it sound like they are reaching. I am not disagreeing with the report as I find that I agree with the findings I am just saying the write up of this report is very easy for people to find it so called "reaching." So don't think I am trying to undermine the report I am just saying it could have been written better IMO.

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I think you'll find that I was posting Kraft comments from ESPN before the NFL Network had anything....

 

Once quotes were available to NFL Network, they ran with them -- great.    But ESPN had some of those quotes sooner and had the other quotes at the same time.

 

As best I can tell,  your objection is the NFL Network did a better job because they presented the whole story at once and not in pieces as ESPN did.

 

I guess that's personal preference...    but that's NOT the way most stories are delivered....

 

I think when you were posting from ESPN, Kraft's comments were already on NFL.com in their main story. It's been a couple hours so I might not remember correctly, but I think I was reading them on NFL.com as you were posting them.

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Yeah, that's the tragic part about it, the balls didn't even need to be deflated. The Patriots are one of the most talented teams in the league. As it stands, though, only three guys knew of this it seems, so there's no need for people to throw dirt at the whole organization.

I agree for the most part, however, I think they got off pretty easy from the last scandal they were involved in. I think the people involved need to be punished for this one to the full extent as I think the punishment for the last offense was a joke.

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Comn....you know that balls will automatically deflate more on the cold side of the field. That must be why ours were correct.... 

Ha!  I just now picked up on your sarcasm in this post.  You clearly saw the lunacy as well.....Good stuff!

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Please PM. 

 

Naa .. not worth bothering with. 

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You don't sound like a smart person. Kraft just said he's going to accept whatever punishment is coming, he just wants it to go away because, unlike you and your fans, he knows this stinks to high heaven of cheating by his golden boy. Would love to see Brady's phone records, would love to see him testify under oath. Brady is guilty, everyone knows this. If you read the report you would realize there is absolutely nothing to argue about. Your hero is a lying, cheating fraud. Just admit it.

 

Ugh not this 'your hero' stuff again. Look, I'm a grown man and this guy plays football for the team that I root for. That's it. I'm not going to go home and cry myself to sleep tonight. I'm not going to stop rooting for this team.. And I dont know why you think I'm somehow defending it or claiming no wrong doing so I dont really know why you're starting this whole thing again about getting to 'admit' something.

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I love how some people seem to think that this is happening inside a criminal court of law.

 

You would be the only one .

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More from Kraft....   and to me,  this quote is MUCH WORSE than the first one I posted....

 

 

"Throughout the process of this nearly four-month investigation, we have cooperated and patiently awaited its outcome.  To say we are disappointed in its findings, which do not include any incontrovertible or hard evidence of deliberate deflation of footballs at the AFC Championship Game, would be a gross understatement," Kraft wrote.

 

I like how it states Brady refused to surrender his phone, yet Kraft states 'we' have cooperated.

 

 

Does this put a stain on Brady similar to the stain that is on Pete Rose?

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and the sound of it is that this was not just a one time off thing.,......sounds like this has been going on for a looooooooooong time. plus the obstruction, lying to investigators, and past history....this could get VERY ugly for them....will it? we'll have to wait and see.

I wouldn't hold my breathe.

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My one regret is that after a long friendship on here, you and I nearly came to blows over this, due to the fact that I was very outspoken with my opinion back in the very beginning.

It's hard when someone is put on a pedestal, and portrayed to be perfect and doing no wrong ever. There is no such person. Many Colts fans, and rightfully so, get sick of the Brady worshipping that goes on ~ on our forum. I just felt with every fiber of my being that he was guilty from the get go.

 

Gramz, I do not think you have to worry about a few brief "in the heat of the" moments in a long history of friendship you have with GoPats or other fans on this board.   There are many fine folks on this board and you are one of them.  I always enjoy your posts as others and is why it is fun to come to this board. 

 

The fact that one or two posts out of hundreds or thousands between posters may have seemed to go a little heated and regarding a hot topic at that, is understandable among fans and friends.  It is just part of being fans.  It is other 99% of the post that define the friendship.  :thmup:   

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There are back & forth texts that implicate Brady . according to Polian earlier Probable is all thats needed the verbage is NFL speak for guilty .

 

It's legal speak. . . The burden of proof that the NFL is operating under is the same that is used in a civil case and is even used in campus misconduct hearings.

 

That burden of proof is "Preponderance of Evidence".  Which means that we operate based on what finding is more probable.  This is not a criminal trial where the burden of proof extends to beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

The lawyer by saying "more probable then not" was saying "the set burden of proof was met."  

 

Honestly I think the proof provided would meet a higher burden if required.

 

I still say they are gonna get off easy because they are going to take into account that there is ample evidence that other teams have done this or may do this as par for the course.

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