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PFT: Multiple Colts players upset with Dorsett selection


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What is really ironic is BB often just blatantly overdrafts a guy by 2 complete rounds. This guy and the safety from Stanford could both qualify in this draft. I say ironic because he no doubt knows what he's doing but tis does appear to be the case. 

One thing is certain with Bill and his draft strategy - compile as many picks as possible to give bigger margin for busts and allow you to hit on as many players as possible on your board. This game of where and when a player is taken is talked about relentlessly but really the draft is about hitting on your picks so it stands to reason that the more picks you have, the better your chances. The Pats had 11 picks this draft, the second most of any team. So Bill can miss or reach on a few and not have it impact his overall draft. In other words, he plans for his misses and plays the compensatory draft pick process better than anyone.

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am :D

 

You lil hard head you . I love the debates we'v had a few , I'v always felt your honorable , knowledgable & a die hard fanatic who loves her team , Until this year I did'nt even realize you were a lady , I just hope I was'nt to rude .

 

Point is I respect your feelings & thoughts concerning your team . I have many years of run ins with Patriot fans most obnoxious still yet no worse than I .

 

As a chess player seeing the board clearly & understanding both sides makes me better , It is good to hear outside opinions from a person you respect IMO it promotes learning at any age .

 

:thmup:

Thanks for this post ADONIS. You have never failed to scare me to death with your avatars. haha

 

I like outside perspectives too which is why I come here and other boards besides Patriots Planet. But I especially enjoy the overall football talk. Some of my favorite discussions up here have had nothing to do with the Pats or Colts. And like you said, learning is the best part. There are some smart cookies up here on many topics.

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One thing is certain with Bill and his draft strategy - compile as many picks as possible to give bigger margin for busts and allow you to hit on as many players as possible on your board. This game of where and when a player is taken is talked about relentlessly but really the draft is about hitting on your picks so it stands to reason that the more picks you have, the better your chances. The Pats had 11 picks this draft, the second most of any team. So Bill can miss or reach on a few and not have it impact his overall draft. In other words, he plans for his misses and plays the compensatory draft pick process better than anyone.

 

 

What else might come into play is (I've heard this anyway) the Pats only have about 70-75 players on their board. So maybe the way his board is breaking compared with the # of picks he has just makes it a non issue to blow a round here and there when he wants a certain player at a certain spot. It also just could be that he had a way higher grade on say the Stanford DB than the talking heads did. 

 

Yeah he no doubt is an expert at compiling picks. J Johnson was probably as good , but I think it's a skill. I also think he probably has real thick skin about losing a guy he thought he was going to get and misses because he traded down. For instance I've seen Grigson comment that he just missed this guy or that guy and you don't see him trading down much. So maybe a little different personalities results in a little different approach. Grigson tends to trade up a bit to make sure he gets the player he has targeted while BB obviously does the opposite.

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What else might come into play is (I've heard this anyway) the Pats only have about 70-75 players on their board. So maybe the way his board is breaking compared with the # of picks he has just makes it a non issue to blow a round here and there when he wants a certain player at a certain spot. It also just could be that he had a way higher grade on say the Stanford DB than the talking heads did. 

 

Yeah he no doubt is an expert at compiling picks. J Johnson was probably as good , but I think it's a skill. I also think he probably has real thick skin about losing a guy he thought he was going to get and misses because he traded down. For instance I've seen Grigson comment that he just missed this guy or that guy and you don't see him trading down much. So maybe a little different personalities results in a little different approach. Grigson tends to trade up a bit to make sure he gets the player he has targeted while BB obviously does the opposite.

To your first point, our former OL coach Dante Scarnecchia still serves as a consultant for the team. He goes and researches OL for Bill and comes back with about 10 names ,this is according to Scott Zolak our former QB now radio personality, and the Bill takes those 10 names and whittles it down to the top 5 that he will take in the draft. So I think the small board is probably true.

 

Also, Bill has constructed basically a plug and play team which is why you always hear the term "versatile" so much with his picks. I think he feels if a guy can do more than one thing then the chances of him bombing are somewhat nullified and also he can use them at different spots giving him more chances to spin the dial on both O and D. Like any good GM and coach, he also knows his scheme and what players will fit. But he has his misses but his hits are usually impressive too.

 

I think for Grigson he has zero latitude right now with the fan base and probably with Irsay too in terms of the draft and getting the top picks right. I think this receiver could be really good for your team so it all may be water under the bridge but if he struggles or if the D still struggles vs the run and in coverage over the middle than Grigson will be raked over the coals. So is the nature of the game. Bill was once in that position too when he decided to start Brady over Bledsoe. You have to trust what you are doing and go for it. I think that is what Grigson is trying to do. We will see if it works out.

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I think for Grigson he has zero latitude right now with the fan base and probably with Irsay too in terms of the draft and getting the top picks right. I think this receiver could be really good for your team so it all may be water under the bridge but if he struggles or if the D still struggles vs the run and in coverage over the middle than Grigson will be raked over the coals. So is the nature of the game. Bill was once in that position too when he decided to start Brady over Bledsoe. You have to trust what you are doing and go for it. I think that is what Grigson is trying to do. We will see if it works out.

You realize the GM's job is not to have "latitude" with the fans, correct? You also realize they only have trouble stopping the run against only the Patriots. DO NOT compare starting a promising rookie over an injured vet to spending a high pick on a very good receiver instead of a defensive player they weren't in love with. Your reaches and comparisons to everything New England are out of this world.

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You realize the GM's job is not to have "latitude" with the fans, correct? You also realize they only have trouble stopping the run against only the Patriots. DO NOT compare starting a promising rookie over an injured vet to spending a high pick on a very good receiver instead of a defensive player they weren't in love with. Your reaches and comparisons to everything New England are out of this world.

I said Irsay too and Irsay cares about the fanbase given they are the ones that put money in his pocket. And perhaps you didn't read my last sentence but I said Grigson has to stick with what he believes.

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Thank you for taking the time to write all of that down. I really appreciate it as it is not often to get so candid feedback. I am not sure which circular argument we were having but I trust it did happen.

 

In terms of my posting style, I usually do stick to my opinion as very often in debates others fail to move me off of it. That being said, posters have changed my position quite often. DW and I had a convo about both RG and Wilson over the past year and he changed my position on both QBs as he did have some great foresight on both that came to fruition. Superman is probably my favorite poster even though we almost never agree. He will defend the Colts to the ninth much as I will the Pats but his points are always well argued, well articulated and give me pause even if I don't agree or change position too much. Old Crow is another poster that has also changed my opinion maybe the most just because his history of the game is so vast.

 

I will keep in mind your thoughts as I continue to post and but honestly forums are for opinion stating and then fighting for those opinions. As you said, I don't ever descend into name calling and such because I enjoy the debate and never take things personally. I enjoy football and the posters on this board and respect their opinions even if I don't agree.

 

I do hope we can continue to debate going forward but understand if you would rather not as well.

 

I never meant to imply you never waiver, just that I had not seen it with me or discussions I've followed.  But I cannot read every post of every thread created. And I wouldn't want you to give up on your principles and concede your position on things without being proven wrong or properly swayed over. But maybe defend them infused with a little more "How to Win Friends and Influence People" approach at some critical times. Fans of other teams are more than welcome here.  But remember, this is still the Home of the Indianapolis Colts fan base. Disagreement and debate is fine.  Defending them is part of it. OTOH, what we all want to avoid is an elevated discord, that's all.

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Dorsett is just agh..... but am waiting for a 1000 yard season from him or else he is a bust considering all the pre-draft hype

 

What? lol. You can pretty much guarantee he will not even be close to a 1000 yard season any time soon. Not with AJ, TY Hilton, and Moncrief ahead of him on the depth chart.

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I never meant to imply you never waiver, just that I had not seen it with me or discussions I've followed.  But I cannot read every post of every thread created. And I wouldn't want you to give up on your principles and concede your position on things without being proven wrong or properly swayed over. But maybe defend them infused with a little more "How to Win Friends and Influence People" approach at some critical times. Fans of other teams are more than welcome here.  But remember, this is still the Home of the Indianapolis Colts fan base. Disagreement and debate is fine.  Defending them is part of it. OTOH, what we all want to avoid is an elevated discord, that's all.

Sure thing. I understand this is a Colts forum and try to post accordingly. I was not aware of any elevated discord but if it does happen with any poster please PM me and let me know.

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Sure thing. I understand this is a Colts forum and try to post accordingly. I was not aware of any elevated discord but if it does happen with any poster please PM me and let me know.

 

Actually, I will likely just advise the party to vacate the discussion for awhile before they go outside the rules and have to suffer the consequences. (and I do not like to do that, either). I do not feel it necessary to message you in this regard, as long as everything was within the rules.  You control and own your demeanor in the discussions. Others own their reactions.  But I did want to draw attention to a connection between them, at times.  No more.

 

You're a valued contributor here. But I guess somewhere in my head, I see an even more engaging and better amfootball as a contributor here.  :)

 

Just like a better ColtsBlueFL.  Yes, I have and own my own issues too.  :(

 

Carry on...

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What? lol. You can pretty much guarantee he will not even be close to a 1000 yard season any time soon. Not with AJ, TY Hilton, and Moncrief ahead of him on the depth chart.

I agree with everything except Moncrief being higher on the list.  I think it is T.Y , A.J, Dorsett, Moncrief now.

But yeah, I don't expect him to have a 1k yard season either..but maybe 20+yards per catch.  With the power running game looking intact, I think they will use it to make the playaction that much more deadly with all the speed.

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Dorsett is also another asset we can turn to in the running game in certain situations.  Pagano spoke of speed sweeps and other plays.  We don't really have any fast backs for the outside plays so this is another area Dorsett can and will be used at on occasion.

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Kind of disappointed in the players if they are unhappy. This was supposed to be one of the best and most welcoming locker rooms.

If you're intimidated by someone new than just work hard and prove your spot. If anything you know this staff will give you plenty of opportunities to keep your spot, ie Trent Richardson

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Winning solves a lot and if we win, especially a SB, no one will have hurt feelings or bad opinions...  and even if our 3rd or 4th round pick helps us win a SB, no one will care when we drafted the little WR.  I didn't care for the pick, but now I don't care, just want the guy to play well and help us win however he does that.

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It looks like it is T.Y. who is the least thrilled about the Colts selection of Dorsett.

Other WRs (Carter, Moncrief) sent tweets of congrats to Dorsett and Butler was especially happy in his tweet.

T.Y. was silent on twitter and was less than welcoming when asked about the pick, "There's nothing I can do about that, that's who they picked".

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Kind of disappointed in the players if they are unhappy. This was supposed to be one of the best and most welcoming locker rooms.

If you're intimidated by someone new than just work hard and prove your spot. If anything you know this staff will give you plenty of opportunities to keep your spot, ie Trent Richardson

 

I don't think we should assume that anyone who is not happy with the pick feels that way because they're intimidated or they're going to lose playing time.

 

Some may be unhappy because the team didn't use the top premium pick either on defense or on the offensive line.   Those are two areas of need much higher than wide receiver....

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IDK...         TY is a baller,  and AJ has a couple years left...    Moncrief and Carter?  The all just got put on notice.    They are not guaranteed roster spots.      And the more I hear and WATCH this kid....  I LIKE.      He is quicker than TY...     He is the Colts next slot WR.    TY and AJ outside.           This O will be scary.      BUT the OL must stay healthy.

I don't think we should assume that anyone who is not happy with the pick feels that way because they're intimidated or they're going to lose playing time.

 

Some may be unhappy because the team didn't use the top premium pick either on defense or on the offensive line.   Those are two areas of need much higher than wide receiver....

 

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Mayock said he stinks in coverage, Mayock also said Le'Veon Bell would be average. How'd that play out?

Don't see how a safety who was constantly around the ball at Alabama terrible in coverage but okay

That's cause mayock doesn't know jack

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the Colts got an EXACT Collins clone in the 4th round....   

 

And don't be surprised to see Jr Syvestre at SS ....       he is a FAST thumper also...   

 

All the practice pics I saw of Sylvestre he was wearing #44 and I saw him on several occasions practicing with Amarlo Herrera who we know is an ILB.  I didn't see any camp pictures of him practicing with D backs or edge rushers.  I think ILB would actually be a better fit.

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I'm not basing it off new England. This is period. This defense needs help

The D got help in FA and the draft.

This loaded WR position we have managed 2 catches total in the AFC Championship game. Moncrief has yet to register a catch in 2 games vs NE.

The dude who's probably the most upset is Carter. I could see him shooting off his mouth calling daddy. He isn't a lock to make the 53 man roster.

Our starting WR's week 1 will be AJ TY and Dorsett. Moncrief has potential but he's not there yet. He will be the first guy off the bench playing outside. Dorsett will own the slot day 1.

As far as Grig's first picks in THE DRAFT

2012 Luck

2013 Werner

2014 Mewhort

2015 Dorsett

In fact every pick he has made in the first five rounds since taking over are all currently on the roster and contributing. Ballard may not make it this year due to injuries. I don't think a lot of GM's can make that claim.

We will learn a lot more about the 2013 class this year.

There is a reason everyone passed on Collins he's not a 1st round talent. NYG moved up to get him they had 3 S on their roster. His cover skills are questioned and if you watch some tape there are a lot of missed tackles.

The D is better than you are giving it credit for. Take away the NE game we would have finished the regular season 9th in rushing yards per game. We held the NFL's leading rushers Murray Shady Forsett Bell and Hill all under a 100 yards.

NE had our number coaches need to figure that out. In the Championship game it was all 3 phases not just D.

The D is going to make a big step forward this year. We are getting deeper on both sides of the ball and we did it without falling into cap hell. While making the playoffs and taking the season a step further each year.

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the Colts got an EXACT Collins clone in the 4th round....

And don't be surprised to see Jr Syvestre at SS .... he is a FAST thumper also...

Have you watched Geathers at all? He's nothing like Collins. Geathers isn't even an ITB safety.

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I don't think we should assume that anyone who is not happy with the pick feels that way because they're intimidated or they're going to lose playing time.

Some may be unhappy because the team didn't use the top premium pick either on defense or on the offensive line. Those are two areas of need much higher than wide receiver....

Who would you have us take? The OT still on the board had some concerns. They would have been reaches IMO.

And Brown wasn't a system fit add that to grabbing Anderson in the 3rd and Parry in the 5th.

We will have what 9 max DL on the 53 man roster. Grig's has openly said he likes what we have.

I do too. They are young but the addition of Langford and a healthy Art Jones should help the young guys. Kerr, Hughes, Chapman, and I think Quarles is going to surprise. Then we added Anderson and Parry.

Langford is underrated IMO.

What was the guy we passed on? Dorsett is going to start in the slot day 1 IMO. I can see him being the BPA on our board by a good margin.

Moncrief has a future for sure we saw the flashes but I think he needs time. He didn't manage a single catch in 2 games vs NE last year. Arguably our 2 biggest games.

Carter has never played a down in the NFL and just 2 yrs ago could not make the Vikes PS. That seems to be the guy everyone is hanging their hats on. Scares me flash backs of Rogers.

We had 2 catches by WR's in the AFCCG.

Dorsett will start day one in the slot again IMO and help flip the field on special teams. A phase of the game that sometimes is minimized. Pat pinning them Dorsett setting us up could make a huge impact in close games

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OK. I watched OSU abuse "the best SS in this draft". Whatever. TC is near.

Indy did just fine in the 4th. Same player

Higher ceiling Collins is overrated it's not a coincidence that all those teams that needed S help let him slide. NYG had to roll the dice they literally had 3 S on their roster.

He was not 1st round talent that simple. I am glad Grig's stayed true to his board.

TC can't get here soon enough. May 12th could be interesting as well

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OK. I watched OSU abuse "the best SS in this draft". Whatever. TC is near.

Indy did just fine in the 4th. Same player

Higher ceiling Collins is overrated it's not a coincidence that all those teams that needed S help let him slide. NYG had to roll the dice they literally had 3 S on their roster.

He was not 1st round talent that simple. I am glad Grig's stayed true to his board.

TC can't get here soon enough. May 12th could be interesting as well

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OK. I watched OSU abuse "the best SS in this draft". Whatever. TC is near.

Indy did just fine in the 4th. Same player

Geathers isn't a box safety. Even if we agree Geathers is the better player, Geathers isn't a "clone" of Landon Collins.

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Higher ceiling Collins is overrated it's not a coincidence that all those teams that needed S help let him slide. NYG had to roll the dice they literally had 3 S on their roster.

He was not 1st round talent that simple. I am glad Grig's stayed true to his board.

TC can't get here soon enough. May 12th could be interesting as well

"Collins isn't good because he fell to the top of the 2nd. Now let me tell you why this 4th round safety is better...."

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This was a deep WR draft, could've easily gotten someone late. Dude is 5'9, what 5'9 WR goes first round?

Grigson just stinks with 1st round picks, it's that simple

Aside from Luck, what first round pick have we had since Grigson showed up that has lived up to a first round talent?

If you look at the history of first round talent taken in the lower picks you will find that most GMs don't have a good record. What I don't understand is why you are so negative with every move that Grigson makes? You have this dislike for the very person who is responsible for building a contender from scratch. In three seasons he has put together a very good team that was the worst in the NFL when he took over. He started with 39 million dead cap money and hit a total home run with his first draft. Luck was a no brainer but the rest of the picks got him the GM of the year. When he took this team over he had 5 players left on the roster that carried over from the 2-14 season. Two of those players were kickers. Every season the Colts have improved and was one game away from going to the super bowl. There are about 25 other NFL teams that would hire Grigson in one minute if he were fired by Irsay. You are so possessed with the picks that have not turned out you completely overlook the positive. I have news for you. Not every player taken in the draft are all stars and that goes for every team. There seems to be a problem with you that you only see negativity and don't even bother to look at the whole picture. You have tunnel vision and only see something you can pick and be negative about. Are you the same way with your family and or workers around you? I don't mean that as insult but as an observation. You have made some very good comments and also some very humorous ones that were good to read. But ultimately you fall into despair with your dislike of Grigson.

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Who would you have us take? The OT still on the board had some concerns. They would have been reaches IMO.

And Brown wasn't a system fit add that to grabbing Anderson in the 3rd and Parry in the 5th.

We will have what 9 max DL on the 53 man roster. Grig's has openly said he likes what we have.

I do too. They are young but the addition of Langford and a healthy Art Jones should help the young guys. Kerr, Hughes, Chapman, and I think Quarles is going to surprise. Then we added Anderson and Parry.

Langford is underrated IMO.

What was the guy we passed on? Dorsett is going to start in the slot day 1 IMO. I can see him being the BPA on our board by a good margin.

Moncrief has a future for sure we saw the flashes but I think he needs time. He didn't manage a single catch in 2 games vs NE last year. Arguably our 2 biggest games.

Carter has never played a down in the NFL and just 2 yrs ago could not make the Vikes PS. That seems to be the guy everyone is hanging their hats on. Scares me flash backs of Rogers.

We had 2 catches by WR's in the AFCCG.

Dorsett will start day one in the slot again IMO and help flip the field on special teams. A phase of the game that sometimes is minimized. Pat pinning them Dorsett setting us up could make a huge impact in close games

Best comment in here by far.

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"Collins isn't good because he fell to the top of the 2nd. Now let me tell you why this 4th round safety is better...."

Not quite what I said. I do think Dorsett is better than Collins I think he will be JAG while Dorsett can be specisl.

Time will tell.

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Who would you have us take? The OT still on the board had some concerns. They would have been reaches IMO.

And Brown wasn't a system fit add that to grabbing Anderson in the 3rd and Parry in the 5th.

We will have what 9 max DL on the 53 man roster. Grig's has openly said he likes what we have.

I do too. They are young but the addition of Langford and a healthy Art Jones should help the young guys. Kerr, Hughes, Chapman, and I think Quarles is going to surprise. Then we added Anderson and Parry.

Langford is underrated IMO.

What was the guy we passed on? Dorsett is going to start in the slot day 1 IMO. I can see him being the BPA on our board by a good margin.

Moncrief has a future for sure we saw the flashes but I think he needs time. He didn't manage a single catch in 2 games vs NE last year. Arguably our 2 biggest games.

Carter has never played a down in the NFL and just 2 yrs ago could not make the Vikes PS. That seems to be the guy everyone is hanging their hats on. Scares me flash backs of Rogers.

We had 2 catches by WR's in the AFCCG.

Dorsett will start day one in the slot again IMO and help flip the field on special teams. A phase of the game that sometimes is minimized. Pat pinning them Dorsett setting us up could make a huge impact in close games

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your post.    My post wasn't about who we picked.    I've defended taking Dorsett in practically every post since we took him.    I've defended the idea of BPA all over the place.

 

My post was ONLY about who might've complained to the media that we took Dorsett and not a defender.

 

It could've been defensive guys who wanted more help.    It could've been WR's who are going to lose snaps to Dorsett.

 

It could've been other offensive guys who want the team to finally build a solid run stuffing defense.

 

There are lots of possible candidates.

 

But, as I've also stated,  I don't care about this.    I think it's mostly a non-story.   This will work itself out over time.    Our locker-room is strong and winning is the best thing for any locker-room.

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I'm not sure I understand your post.    My post wasn't about who we picked.    I've defended taking Dorsett in practically every post since we took him.    I've defended the idea of BPA all over the place.

 

My post was ONLY about who might've complained to the media that we took Dorsett and not a defender.

 

It could've been defensive guys who wanted more help.    It could've been WR's who are going to lose snaps to Dorsett.

 

It could've been other offensive guys who want the team to finally build a solid run stuffing defense.

 

There are lots of possible candidates.

 

But, as I've also stated,  I don't care about this.    I think it's mostly a non-story.   This will work itself out over time.    Our locker-room is strong and winning is the best thing for any locker-room.

I tend to agree with the end of your statement non story. It wouldn't surprise me if no one complained and this was taken totally out of context to stir up a story. There's not a lot going on. If there were complaints I think Dorsett will end those pretty quickly when we start playing.

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