Grigson = Matt Millen + Al Davis

[crazycolt1]

Was talking about the Raiders and their drafting of speed WRs.

 

I agree, Dorsett can be a good WR, but he, like T.Y., is a project.

I would consider your comment that TY is a project is already answered with a pro bowl selection and a very high career numbers in two seasons. IMO is no longer a project. He is a full legitimate  pro receiver that draws double teams. That is what the NFL knows about him. Explain why you think he is still a project?

[akcolt]

I respect Mayock, but you have to have more than straight line speed. Dorsett's weakness are poor route running in short and intermediate areas. Uses poor hand positioning when catching and he is only 5'9.

Everything but his size can be coached up. He will need at least 3 years to really be productive (see T.Y.).

You can read NFL.com quoted it almost word for word. Here's another take.

Dorsett had a tremendous pro day. His 40-yard dash there beat his great time at the Combine and fell from the mid-4.3s to the mid-4.2s. Dorsett also looked great in the field drills with his route-running and hands. Dorsett was one of the stars of the Senior Bowl as he dominated in practice. He was constantly getting separation with his elite speed and route-running. Dorsett looks like a big-play threat, but also does well in the short part of the field because of how sudden he is in and out of his breaks.

[theanarchist]

has trouble getting open in the short to intermediate areas.  This is due to poor route running.  At this time, Dorsett is only a deep threat like T.Y. was in his 1st few years

2012- 50/861/7

2013- 82/1083/5

2014- 82/1345/7

 

Those are TY's numbers. I'll take that x2 if they are the same type of guy. Short to medium routes a problem? OK, we have Andre Johnson, Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and Frank Gore for those! I don't know much about Dorsett only what I've read and heard on TV. He apparently has scorching speed and can adjust to the ball in flight and go get it and when he catches it he can run after the catch. As a I said before, every player has a weakness.

 

TY did not need 3 years. His first year numbers were great for a rookie and his second and 3rd year numbers were fantastic. He went to the pro bowl this  year, his 3rd year. If it takes Doresett 3 years to make it to a pro bowl, great, then he was worth the 1st round pick.

[gacker65]

2012- 50/861/7

2013- 82/1083/5

2014- 82/1345/7

 

Those are TY's numbers. I'll take that x2 if they are the same type of guy. Short to medium routes a problem? OK, we have Andre Johnson, Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and Frank Gore for those! I don't know much about Dorsett only what I've read and heard on TV. He apparently has scorching speed and can adjust to the ball in flight and go get it and when he catches it he can run after the catch. As a I said before, every player has a weakness.

 

TY did not need 3 years. His first year numbers were great for a rookie and his second and 3rd year numbers were fantastic. He went to the pro bowl this  year, his 3rd year. If it takes Doresett 3 years to make it to a pro bowl, great, then he was worth the 1st round pick.

I'll answer your last point first.  T.Y. did take 3 years to get his route running better.  He has improved each year and that is why his numbers got better.  He back slid in a few games and could not get open in the short and intermediate areas (see Pats play off game).  That is the reason we had problems in the short to intermediate areas last year (WRs not getting open).

 

I am not saying Dorsett is bad or will be bad, just that he is not a day 1 starter.  Dorsett is not an impact player, is why I say he was a bad pick in the 1st round. He would have been a value pick in the 2nd.

[Superman]

Coincidentally, Jim Irsay just talked about how Al Davis would have loved this pick. Not my favorite endorsement...

 

Dorsett isn't a Matt Millen type of receiver. Millen liked the 6'4" guys, like Mike Williams.

[crazycolt1]

_{Maybe they can have Dorsett become a secondary player? What  a waste of a unneed pick. It will be another season of complaining we cannot stop the run.}

Turn you letters up. They are too small. Not too many cant even see them plainly.

[ColtStrong]

So if one does not like the  pick, we are not Colts fans? Do we have to fall in line and accept all of Ryan;s choices/? Do you watch the same Colts every week getting pushed arouund by other teams running game? 

Not liking the pick and complaining like a 12 yr old school girl who just had her cell phone taken away are 2 different things. People act like these picks will change their lives and make them happy. At the end of the day you still have to go to work, deal with the wife and kids, pay bills..... but drafting Brown would have changed my life!!!!!!!! <facepalm>

[In Luck We Trust]

I watched the film on him on the NFL network and he was dominating DB's. He did average 28 yards a catch and score 10 TD's on less than 40 catches. Also played with a freshman QB . 

but when 3/4 of the ACC conference has bad defenses and having played Florida A&M and Arkansas State its expected to put up those kinda numbers with his speed. dont get me wrong, I like what he has done, and as a player but my only concern is, is he really worthy of being a first round draft pick? or could we have actually landed him in the second round? but after drafting Geathers who I think could be as good as Bob Sanders if not better pending on if he can stay healthy, although one of his positive reports was he is very durable, anyway after drafting him i am not to upset about dorsett going in the first. I just hope he lives up to the hype and proves me wrong about not being worthy of  being picked in the first round.

 

But in the end, given that Houston has improved their defensive line and Jacksonville improving their defensive backfield having a guy with this speed who can get open quickly is a big plus and could help Luck out a lot. 

[In Luck We Trust]

Coincidentally, Jim Irsay just talked about how Al Davis would have loved this pick. Not my favorite endorsement...

 

Dorsett isn't a Matt Millen type of receiver. Millen liked the 6'4" guys, like Mike Williams.

eh, i heard the same thing. saying something the Al Davis would have liked isn't saying much on the positive side lol

[ColtStrong]

You can read NFL.com quoted it almost word for word. Here's another take.

Dorsett had a tremendous pro day. His 40-yard dash there beat his great time at the Combine and fell from the mid-4.3s to the mid-4.2s. Dorsett also looked great in the field drills with his route-running and hands. Dorsett was one of the stars of the Senior Bowl as he dominated in practice. He was constantly getting separation with his elite speed and route-running. Dorsett looks like a big-play threat, but also does well in the short part of the field because of how sudden he is in and out of his breaks.

People don't care about how great he can be, Brown would have guaranteed us a Super Bowl! <---- sarcasm

 

I'm just glad we have Grigson as our GM, and not anyone from this board. I guess taking one step further every year since going 2-14 isn't good enough. Perfection, or be fired!!!!

[scooter4910]

Damn....if I had posted this the board would have my head on a platter. Must be good to be Superman.

 

Grigson's first round pick history:

2012 - Andrew Luck (no credit for this pick, you'd have to have been blind, deaf, and living under a rock to not pick Luck)

2013 - Werner (not a bust, but certainly not deserving of a first round pick in our defense, and doesn't live up to the hype Grigson and Pagano gave him)

2014 - traded for Trent Richardson (bust)

2015 - Dorsett (a pass catcher on a team loaded with pass catchers while not drafting several defensive players that could have really helped the team immediately)

 

Grigson's approach seems a little on the emotional side to me.  "Woah!  Frank Gore is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he will be 32 when the season starts and already has nearly 2500 carries and 11000+ yards.  "Woah!  Andre Johnson is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he'll be 34 when the season starts and is starting to show signs of declining.  "Woah!  Trent Cole is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he'll be 33 before the midway point of the season.  "Woah!  This Werner guy can bat balls down like JJ Watt?  Let's draft him"...and ignore the fact that he doesn't fit in our defense/our defensive coaches have shown that they can't utilize talent to its maximum potential.

 

I'm starting to hop on the fire Grigson bandwagon

[scooter4910]

yes I watch the Colts via NFL ticket every week. We have no receivers WOW! It's the Pats D that took out our game plan. Not saying Grogs to be fired but fans can question picks, game calling, etc, That's what is being a fan. I have been a fan since 1972 soo don't tell me I'm not a Fan. I guess one is not a Fan unless they accept all moves and decisions like a compaby Yes person.

Exactly

[coltsfanatic24]

Grigson is great at evaluating offensive playmakers, the complete opposite when it comes to defense. Until he starts drafting defense early in the draft, were going to keep losing to teams like the Patriots and Steerlers. The Patriots have about 5 blue chip defensive players and all were drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. We have one in Davis and it was through a trade. That's the difference in the teams. Belichick values defense more, Grigson values offense. There's no way a WR should have been drafted in the 1st round with needs at S, RT, OLB, and DE. 

[dw49]

but when 3/4 of the ACC conference has bad defenses and having played Florida A&M and Arkansas State its expected to put up those kinda numbers with his speed. dont get me wrong, I like what he has done, and as a player but my only concern is, is he really worthy of being a first round draft pick? or could we have actually landed him in the second round? but after drafting Geathers who I think could be as good as Bob Sanders if not better pending on if he can stay healthy, although one of his positive reports was he is very durable, anyway after drafting him i am not to upset about dorsett going in the first. I just hope he lives up to the hype and proves me wrong about not being worthy of  being picked in the first round.

 

But in the end, given that Houston has improved their defensive line and Jacksonville improving their defensive backfield having a guy with this speed who can get open quickly is a big plus and could help Luck out a lot. 

 

 

The only thing I can put your mind at ease about is if he would have been available in round two. 

 

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2015/05/01/source-texans-thought-wr-dorsett-would-be-available-with-32nd-pick-of-draft/

[ColtStrong]

Damn....if I had posted this the board would have my head on a platter. Must be good to be Superman.

People that post 150 times a day can get away with more. Must be nice to be able to sit in front of a screen all day. Real work? What's that?

[CoachLite]

The real test of this draft and the GM that directed it is scheduled to start in September. Better start cramming now.

[Colts_Fan12]

Yes. I am very happy that Brown was there and we took him. Very similar to when Wilfork fell to us #21 back in 2004.

How come the Colts did not take the safety Collins? I thought for sure they would take him or Brown.

so do you see brown being a NT and replacing Wilfork?

[Defjamz26]

I would say the shocking part is the rumor that Dorsett was ranked in the teens while they had Brown as a second rounder.

He made it seem like in the press conference that the fact that he ran a 4.2 was just so remarkable that he was just amazing. That is very Al Davis-like. Makes you wonder what the full board looked like. Probably had Kevin White number 1 and Breshad Perriman number 2.

The rest of the draft ended up working out but that first round pick doesn't do anything to help stop the Patriots running over you or keep Luck upright, which should have been two key focuses.

[amfootball]

so do you see brown being a NT and replacing Wilfork?

I am not sure but Brown is different from Wilfork in that he is not just a run stuffer but also athletic and can get pressure on the QB. Some have compared him to Warren Sapp in that regard but I am not sure if I would go that far yet. I think Bill will be Bill and move Brown around a lot on the line given he can play every position. I think Easley is more the natural replacement for Wilfork along with Branch and Siligia. But I have to admit that I am salivating over the Dline and all the things Bill has at his disposal to disrupt the QB and the run game.

[Bobbycovert]

My prediction:

 

This thread will be hilarious after the season is done.

[TrueBlue12]

I would say the shocking part is the rumor that Dorsett was ranked in the teens while they had Brown as a second rounder.

He made it seem like in the press conference that the fact that he ran a 4.2 was just so remarkable that he was just amazing. That is very Al Davis-like. Makes you wonder what the full board looked like. Probably had Kevin White number 1 and Breshad Perriman number 2.

The rest of the draft ended up working out but that first round pick doesn't do anything to help stop the Patriots running over you or keep Luck upright, which should have been two key focuses.

Grigson said that 4.27 speed was a "blue trait" and that kind of speed doesn't last long in the draft. Interesting. Mario Alford, a WR for WVU, has 4.27 speed and he went to the Bengals in the 7th round. I suppose he must have had that same "blue trait" since he is just as fast as Dorsett.

[TrueBlue12]

I'm literally quoting Bill Polian.    I'll take his word over the write-up.

Quote Bill Polian all you want but the Pats play a 34 and Belichick drafted Brown two picks after we took Dorsett. Belichick must be a fool for taking a 1 gap DT for his 2 gap defense. Polian is a genius. Belichick is a fool. Oh, and then Polian calls Brown to the Pats the steal of the draft.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Grigson's first round pick history:

2012 - Andrew Luck (no credit for this pick, you'd have to have been blind, deaf, and living under a rock to not pick Luck)

2013 - Werner (not a bust, but certainly not deserving of a first round pick in our defense, and doesn't live up to the hype Grigson and Pagano gave him)

2014 - traded for Trent Richardson (bust)

2015 - Dorsett (a pass catcher on a team loaded with pass catchers while not drafting several defensive players that could have really helped the team immediately)

 

Grigson's approach seems a little on the emotional side to me.  "Woah!  Frank Gore is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he will be 32 when the season starts and already has nearly 2500 carries and 11000+ yards.  "Woah!  Andre Johnson is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he'll be 34 when the season starts and is starting to show signs of declining.  "Woah!  Trent Cole is available?  Let's sign him"....and ignore the fact that he'll be 33 before the midway point of the season.  "Woah!  This Werner guy can bat balls down like JJ Watt?  Let's draft him"...and ignore the fact that he doesn't fit in our defense/our defensive coaches have shown that they can't utilize talent to its maximum potential.

 

I'm starting to hop on the fire Grigson bandwagon

 

 

I agree with your draft analysis I'm not completely thrilled but I am not Grigson & its his vision that has guided our Colts to 3 straight 11-5 seasons each better than the last IMO he's making the next step in his opinion to push the team further which we were 1 step from the Superbowl  so I will save my criticisms for next january when it will be abundantly clear whether or not these & the past drafts as well as FA signings have panned out .

 

People here IMO are not & will never be NFL GM's & for me the opinions expressed are fans venting & not to be taken to seriously .  I will not jump on the fire Grigson Bandwagon because some Colts fanatics are being Fanatical I say relax let this play out .

 

Spoiled lil kids in the store who want mommy to buy them a toy or a piece of candy crying & throwing a temper tantrum is what the fire Grigson crowd sounds like IMO ..

 

Peyton Manning's first 3 seasons are over shadowed by Andrew Luck's accomplishments & no one cried Wolf then or called for Polians firing .

 

I read alot of your posts & I'm surprised by your reaction why not a lets see policy ?  If this season is not better then last I believe there will be alot of fans on your bandwagon just not yet .

[chrisfarley]

What? Brown is a 2 gap tackle but he can do it all ... extremely versatile.

 

Here is his write up:

The 6-foot-2, 320-pound defensive tackle has the ability to play multiple spots on the defensive line in either a 3-4 or a 4-3 front — versatility [personified].

Brown isn’t just another defensive lineman, though. He was a 2014 finalist for the Bronco Nagurski Trophy for the most outstanding defensive player, as well as for the Outland Trophy for the top interior defensive lineman. He was also voted a first-team All-American and first-team All-Big 12.

Brown is considered a solid two-gap defensive tackle for his ability to hold the point of attack, but he also has penetration ability to get into the backfield. He notched 13 tackles for loss and 6.5 sacks, leading the team in both categories and becoming the first Texas defender to do so since 1984.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/04/30/patriots-stick-select-malcom-brown-with-first-round-pick/9LdnFtAI6kqqidtBkVpBlL/story.html?p1=takeover

Huge miss by the Colts - so signing Dorsett means that we won't lock up Hilton and he becomes Pierre Garcon.

[21isSuperman]

I agree with your draft analysis I'm not completely thrilled but I am not Grigson & its his vision that has guided our Colts to 3 straight 11-5 seasons each better than the last IMO he's making the next step in his opinion to push the team further which we were 1 step from the Superbowl  so I will save my criticisms for next january when it will be abundantly clear whether or not these & the past drafts as well as FA signings have panned out .

 

People here IMO are not & will never be NFL GM's & for me the opinions expressed are fans venting & not to be taken to seriously .  I will not jump on the fire Grigson Bandwagon because some Colts fanatics are being Fanatical I say relax let this play out .

 

Spoiled lil kids in the store who want mommy to buy them a toy or a piece of candy crying & throwing a temper tantrum is what the fire Grigson crowd sounds like IMO ..

 

Peyton Manning's first 3 seasons are over shadowed by Andrew Luck's accomplishments & no one cried Wolf then or called for Polians firing .

 

I read alot of your posts & I'm surprised by your reaction why not a lets see policy ?  If this season is not better then last I believe there will be alot of fans on your bandwagon just not yet .

I understand that most, if not all, of the members on here are armchair GMs.  But just because someone has the GM title, that doesn't mean they're good at it.  Matt Millen, Al Davis, etc. have all been GMs and been bad at it.  Davis was ahead of his time at first, but then slowly started to make more and more bad decisions.  Just because someone has the title in their job, doesn't mean they're any good at it. 

 

For me, the fire Grigson thing isn't just because of this draft.  It's because of many of his decisions over the last few years.  Every first round pick other than Luck (which was a no-brainer) has been bad.  Bringing in older guys with not much left in the tank like DQ hasn't made sense to me.  Giving out so much money to players who don't deserve that much hasn't made sense.  The drafting of Dorsett isn't why I'm starting to lean towards the fire Grigson bandwagon, but rather the last straw.  Dorsett is an incredibly talented player and I really do think he will develop into a great WR.  But we have plenty of other needs and the talent to fill them was there.

 

I'm still willing to have a wait-and-see policy.  I've been saying all offseason that this is Grigson's (and possibly Pagano's) make-or-break year.  He needs to have his draft class contribute a lot and this team needs to get over that 11-win hurdle.  We need to starting getting 12+ wins a year, fighting for one of the top spots in the AFC each year, and not getting blown out every few weeks.  My issue is that I have a very difficult time seeing Dorsett make a contribution this year because we have so many young WRs and several of whom need development, like Moncrief and Carter.  I'm not at the 100% "time to fire Grigson" end of the bandwagon, but I think he is on the proverbial hot seat

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Just because someone has the title in their job, doesn't mean they're any good at it. 

 

 

 

 

I agree but its his job to lose & regardless of opinions by message board geniuses 3 seasons of 11-5 will keep you your job as GM .

 

But a HC who needs to stop the run & can't will most likely IMO be the only head to roll .

[21isSuperman]

 

 

I agree but its his job to lose & regardless of opinions by message board geniuses 3 seasons of 11-5 will keep you your job as GM .

 

But a HC who needs to stop the run & can't will most likely IMO be the only head to roll .

 

No one said he'll lose his job because of our opinions.  They are simply our opinions.

 

I think Manusky, Pagano, and Grigson need to go/are on the hot seat.

[Colts_Fan12]

I agree but its his job to lose & regardless of opinions by message board geniuses 3 seasons of 11-5 will keep you your job as GM .

But a HC who needs to stop the run & can't will most likely IMO be the only head to roll .

In a way tho I feel sorry for Pagano he can only do so much with the stupid picks and crappy old FAs that Grigs gives him. His coaching can't just make bad players good if a player is bad he's just a bad player.

[BOTT]

You guys will feel better about the draft in the next few days when we start adding defensive players. Serviceable, run-stopping lineman can be had in later rounds.

Dorsett may prove to be a major weapon immediately. This offense may top Denver ' s 2014 squad. There's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

The colts defense doesn't need more serviceable players......it needs difference makers. And it's much easier to find talented slot receivers in the middle rounds than defensive linemen.

[BOTT]

I agree but its his job to lose & regardless of opinions by message board geniuses 3 seasons of 11-5 will keep you your job as GM .

But a HC who needs to stop the run & can't will most likely IMO be the only head to roll .

So, blame the coach for the mediocre front seven? Last time I checked that was Grigson's J.O.B.

[Superman]

I understand that most, if not all, of the members on here are armchair GMs.  But just because someone has the GM title, that doesn't mean they're good at it.  Matt Millen, Al Davis, etc. have all been GMs and been bad at it.  Davis was ahead of his time at first, but then slowly started to make more and more bad decisions.  Just because someone has the title in their job, doesn't mean they're any good at it. 

 

For me, the fire Grigson thing isn't just because of this draft.  It's because of many of his decisions over the last few years.  Every first round pick other than Luck (which was a no-brainer) has been bad.  Bringing in older guys with not much left in the tank like DQ hasn't made sense to me.  Giving out so much money to players who don't deserve that much hasn't made sense.  The drafting of Dorsett isn't why I'm starting to lean towards the fire Grigson bandwagon, but rather the last straw.  Dorsett is an incredibly talented player and I really do think he will develop into a great WR.  But we have plenty of other needs and the talent to fill them was there.

 

I'm still willing to have a wait-and-see policy.  I've been saying all offseason that this is Grigson's (and possibly Pagano's) make-or-break year.  He needs to have his draft class contribute a lot and this team needs to get over that 11-win hurdle.  We need to starting getting 12+ wins a year, fighting for one of the top spots in the AFC each year, and not getting blown out every few weeks.  My issue is that I have a very difficult time seeing Dorsett make a contribution this year because we have so many young WRs and several of whom need development, like Moncrief and Carter.  I'm not at the 100% "time to fire Grigson" end of the bandwagon, but I think he is on the proverbial hot seat

 

That's a measured response, compared to the "Grigson woke up in the mood to make bad decisions" post from earlier in this thread. 

• Grigson didn't ignore Gore's age and mileage. That's why Gore got $4m/year, and not $6-8m/year like the younger backs got. He signed Gore because he's a good back, and unless his skill and ability completely falls off a cliff from the end of last season (when he went 51 yards for a TD against the Chargers), he'll be the best RB the Colts have had since 2007 Joseph Addai. This was a good signing, one that other teams wanted to make, and it immediately upgrades our RB position.
• Grigson didn't ignore AJ's age. Again, he got a contract that reflects his age and mileage, and yet, he'll be better than any receiver not named TY Hilton that we've had since Reggie got hurt. Speaking of which, he's the same age Reggie was after a season where "he started to show decline," yet he was our best receiver and had 100+ catches and one of the more important games any receiver had for any team that season. Again, this was a good signing, and in no way supports your thesis.
• Same thing with Trent Cole. You need to do better than "this guy isn't as young as I'd like." Cole is a multi-positional defender who had a pretty good season last year playing a more rigid position than he's used to. And still, he would have been our best OLB in 2014. We got destroyed by the Steelers because we didn't have anyone who could beat blockers. Heaven forbid we sign an experienced pass rusher to an incentivized two year contract. 
• I'll give you Werner, even though you're wrong about him not fitting our defense. He fits our defense very well, just not at the position we drafted him for. But it's hilarious that you think Grigson drafted Werner because he thinks he knocks down passes like JJ Watt. I think we all know that's not the case.

I don't see any "wait and see" in your approach. I see 'I don't like this GM, so I'm going to search for reasons to undermine everything he does,' even to the point that you nitpick simple things that he says in press conferences. 

 

There's zero reason to compare him to Al Davis (at the end; let's not forget that Al Davis was the architect of some really good Raiders teams before he went crazy) or Matt Millen. Unlike Matt Millen, Ryan Grigson is in charge of a team that actually wins games. Millen was GM for seven years, and never had a team that didn't lose at least 9 games. NFL execs have said that Millen made more bad draft decisions than anyone else. Colts fans get upset because the team got blown out against a few good teams; how about going 0-24 on the road in Millen's first three years in charge? How about the fact that he was primarily responsible for the roster that went 0-16 in 2008? Aside from Jeff Backus in 2001 and Calvin Johnson in 2007, Millen only drafted busts in the first round.

 

This fervor this weekend amounts to Grigson drafting a receiver when everyone wanted a lineman. That's it. It's not that the receiver isn't good. It's not that our team is bad and didn't get better. It's not that we can't get near the playoffs, or even have a .500 record. Nope. It's that, three seasons after 2-14, we aren't an absolute powerhouse. Despite going 11-5 and coming within one game of the Super Bowl, the only thing people care about is that the Pats ran the ball on us. 

 

These aren't excuses for Grigson. I don't think he needs excuses. He's made several mistakes that we are all aware of. He's also made several critical decisions -- some of which are contrary to what the fans wanted -- that have made this team better than it would have been otherwise. I don't have a problem with pointing out his misses, and I think he absolutely has to do better than he did in 2013. Yet, a lot of this hyper-criticism comes off exactly like Adonis said -- like spoiled kids throwing a tantrum. You can't compare Ryan Grigson to Matt Millen and Al Davis when his teams are 33-15; bad GMs don't have consistently winning teams that go deeper into the playoffs every season.

[NewColtsFan]

Quote Bill Polian all you want but the Pats play a 34 and Belichick drafted Brown two picks after we took Dorsett. Belichick must be a fool for taking a 1 gap DT for his 2 gap defense. Polian is a genius. Belichick is a fool. Oh, and then Polian calls Brown to the Pats the steal of the draft.

 

I can't make heads or tails of your post?

 

You hate Polian.    You like Polian.

 

Not all 3-4 defenses are the same.

 

Brown at 32 to NE was a steal.   A scheme fit for them.

 

I liked Brown....    was surprised to hear the name Phillips Dorsett.    But when the GM says he was the highest player on our board at the time -- by far -- then you take him.

[ColtsBlueFL]

eh, i heard the same thing. saying something the Al Davis would have liked isn't saying much on the positive side lol

 

I guess some are too young to remember a smart and triumphant Al Davis.  Al Davis also shaped football.  Davis recruited players like Lance Alworth to the AFL, and Chargers specifically.  Sid Gillman , father of the vertical passing attack, was HC at the time.  Here was a quote of his- said of Mr. Davis:

 

“There isn’t a doubt in Al Davis’s mind that right now he’s the smartest guy in the game. He isn’t, but he will be pretty damned soon.”

 

Davis went on to be commissioner of the AFL and vowed to take all the good players from going to the NFL.  A few months later, NFL owner agreed to merge, but Pete Rozelle remain commissioner of integrated league, leavie Davis without a job.  Davis went back to Raiders as co-owner, and Managing Partner. Davis made all of his riches in the football game, no outside mutual funds or corporate conglomerate in his name.

 

His teams went to 5 Super Bowls, and won 3. He could take cast offs and under performing players and rebuild/rehab them into winners.  and he had an eye for new talent. back then. He grabbed undervalued players like Daryle Lamonica, George Blanda and Jim Plunkett, and running back Bill Cannon .He rehabilitated others such as receiver Warren Wells, DL Lyle Alzado and John Matuszak, and quarterback Ken Stabler, whose reputations were sullied (either before or after they became Raiders) by allegations of criminal behavior, drug use, gambling or other transgressions. His teams were more feared than respected, and Davis chose the colors to intimidate. His players had names like the Snake (Ken Stabler) , Mad Bomber (Daryle Lamonica) , Dr. Death (Skip Thomas), and the Assassin (Jack Tatum).

 

Yes, there was a time he made money at football, and won at the same time.  Doing it all while teeing off other owners and the NFL too.  Then he got old.  His tuteldge under Gillman made him a supporter of the vertical passing attack  Now you see why he Valued Jamarcus Russell's arm  and pure speed from his wideouts.  But his age let down his ability to gauge the other parts he was so good at when younger.  And I'm sure there were no People calling him out, at least not for long.

 

I'm sure Irsay remembers and is completely talking about that younger Al Davis, not an old crotchety owner who no longer recognized true football talent anymore. He got in to the NFL Hall of Fame.  The league he feuded with at every turn.  Here's his HOF writeup-

 

"Allen Davis ... As AFL commissioner, forced quick merger with NFL, 1966 ... Davis-led Raiders had best record in pro sports, 1963-1991, won Super Bowls XI, XV, XVIII ... AFL Coach of the Year, 1963 ... Only person to serve in pros as personnel assistant, scout, assistant coach, head coach, general manager, commissioner, team owner/chief executive officer"

 

If you only know Davis as recruiter of Russell and DHB, you don't know Al Davis.

[scooter4910]

Not liking the pick and complaining like a 12 yr old school girl who just had her cell phone taken away are 2 different things. People act like these picks will change their lives and make them happy. At the end of the day you still have to go to work, deal with the wife and kids, pay bills..... but drafting Brown would have changed my life!!!!!!!! <facepalm>

Funny comment coming from you after your diatribe about how good our defense will be.

[TrueBlue12]

I can't make heads or tails of your post?

 

You hate Polian.    You like Polian.

 

Not all 3-4 defenses are the same.

 

Brown at 32 to NE was a steal.   A scheme fit for them.

 

I liked Brown....    was surprised to hear the name Phillips Dorsett.    But when the GM says he was the highest player on our board at the time -- by far -- then you take him.

There was a bit of sarcasm in my post that is the reason for the contradictory statements regarding Polian ;-)

 

I'm was also confused by the Colts actions. In free agency, Grigson, et al. justified signing a bunch of 30+ year olds by saying we're all in for a Super Bowl run this year. Then, in the draft instead of taking Brown who could be an impact player at DE this year, they take a WR and talk about him contributing as a returner. If he does get snaps, it will be at the expense of Hilton (not likely), AJ, or Moncrief. In the second round, they pick a CB for depth.

 

The Colts' brass seems a bit schiizophrenic if you ask me.

[Colts_Fan12]

The colts defense doesn't need more serviceable players......it needs difference makers. And it's much easier to find talented slot receivers in the middle rounds than defensive linemen.

you are right but that kind of logic isn't being used around here

[JColts72]

Not liking the pick and complaining like a 12 yr old school girl who just had her cell phone taken away are 2 different things. People act like these picks will change their lives and make them happy. At the end of the day you still have to go to work, deal with the wife and kids, pay bills..... but drafting Brown would have changed my life!!!!!!!! <facepalm>

[JColts72]

U must be the other 12 year old girl who took the cell phone away.

[21isSuperman]

That's a measured response, compared to the "Grigson woke up in the mood to make bad decisions" post from earlier in this thread. 

• Grigson didn't ignore Gore's age and mileage. That's why Gore got $4m/year, and not $6-8m/year like the younger backs got. He signed Gore because he's a good back, and unless his skill and ability completely falls off a cliff from the end of last season (when he went 51 yards for a TD against the Chargers), he'll be the best RB the Colts have had since 2007 Joseph Addai. This was a good signing, one that other teams wanted to make, and it immediately upgrades our RB position.
• Grigson didn't ignore AJ's age. Again, he got a contract that reflects his age and mileage, and yet, he'll be better than any receiver not named TY Hilton that we've had since Reggie got hurt. Speaking of which, he's the same age Reggie was after a season where "he started to show decline," yet he was our best receiver and had 100+ catches and one of the more important games any receiver had for any team that season. Again, this was a good signing, and in no way supports your thesis.
• Same thing with Trent Cole. You need to do better than "this guy isn't as young as I'd like." Cole is a multi-positional defender who had a pretty good season last year playing a more rigid position than he's used to. And still, he would have been our best OLB in 2014. We got destroyed by the Steelers because we didn't have anyone who could beat blockers. Heaven forbid we sign an experienced pass rusher to an incentivized two year contract. 
• I'll give you Werner, even though you're wrong about him not fitting our defense. He fits our defense very well, just not at the position we drafted him for. But it's hilarious that you think Grigson drafted Werner because he thinks he knocks down passes like JJ Watt. I think we all know that's not the case.

I don't see any "wait and see" in your approach. I see 'I don't like this GM, so I'm going to search for reasons to undermine everything he does,' even to the point that you nitpick simple things that he says in press conferences. 

 

There's zero reason to compare him to Al Davis (at the end; let's not forget that Al Davis was the architect of some really good Raiders teams before he went crazy) or Matt Millen. Unlike Matt Millen, Ryan Grigson is in charge of a team that actually wins games. Millen was GM for seven years, and never had a team that didn't lose at least 9 games. NFL execs have said that Millen made more bad draft decisions than anyone else. Colts fans get upset because the team got blown out against a few good teams; how about going 0-24 on the road in Millen's first three years in charge? How about the fact that he was primarily responsible for the roster that went 0-16 in 2008? Aside from Jeff Backus in 2001 and Calvin Johnson in 2007, Millen only drafted busts in the first round.

 

This fervor this weekend amounts to Grigson drafting a receiver when everyone wanted a lineman. That's it. It's not that the receiver isn't good. It's not that our team is bad and didn't get better. It's not that we can't get near the playoffs, or even have a .500 record. Nope. It's that, three seasons after 2-14, we aren't an absolute powerhouse. Despite going 11-5 and coming within one game of the Super Bowl, the only thing people care about is that the Pats ran the ball on us. 

 

These aren't excuses for Grigson. I don't think he needs excuses. He's made several mistakes that we are all aware of. He's also made several critical decisions -- some of which are contrary to what the fans wanted -- that have made this team better than it would have been otherwise. I don't have a problem with pointing out his misses, and I think he absolutely has to do better than he did in 2013. Yet, a lot of this hyper-criticism comes off exactly like Adonis said -- like spoiled kids throwing a tantrum. You can't compare Ryan Grigson to Matt Millen and Al Davis when his teams are 33-15; bad GMs don't have consistently winning teams that go deeper into the playoffs every season.

I'm not trying to say Grigson wakes up and just feels good about a player, so he drafts him.  But I think there is the possibility that he buys into hype/name to some extent.  If this were 2010, I'd be stoked about adding Trent Cole, Gore, and Andre.  In 2015, I'm still happy and I think they'll all contribute, but I think we need to have the right expectations. I just want to clarify that: I'm not saying these players will be terrible.  I think they will all contribute to our team and I'm happy to have them all on the roster.  But I would be (pleasantly) surprised if Andre got 1000+ yards on 100+ receptions, Gore got 1000+ yards (depending on how many carries he gets and how they split his reps with Robinson and Herron), and Cole gets 10+ sacks.  Of course, those stats aren't the ultimate indicator of how a player contributes to a team.  All of those guys bring experience, Super Bowl experience in the case of Gore, and leadership.  So they bring a lot to the team.  I'm just not as excited about those additions as some others are.

 

I don't think it's any secret that the coaching staff and front office were impressed by Werner's ability to knock down passes at FSU (in fact, Grigson was quoted as saying "This guy is productive, plays hard, eight batted passes this year I believe, plus 13 sacks..."  Werner fits in our defense (I should have clarified this point: he doesn't fit in our defense/he isn't being used in our defense the way Grigson and Pagano expected, but he does have a role in our defense) and has been a solid player, but he isn't at the level I would want from a first rounder.  Again, I'm not saying the only reason we got Werner is because he batted balls down in college.  I said that is seems like to me that Grigson buys into some hype around a guy's name or a few highlights.  Again, that's just my perception and opinion.  That doesn't mean it's how Grigson is doing business.

 

I'm not trying to undermine everything Grigson does.  I've stated on these forums that I'm giving Grigson this year to decide whether or not I think he should be fired.  Grigson has made some great moves for the team and I'm not undermining his work ethic or all of what he's done.  In regards to his press conferences, I just use it as a way to see how Grigson is thinking.  I don't have the luxury of being there to ask him what he means or being able to be in the war room when draft decisions are made, so I use what he says in press conferences as a sort of window to the mind to see what his rationale is.  If you're saying I nitpick in regards to the blue traits stuff, I even said I might be reading too closely into that.  Otherwise, I don't think it's anything crazy to consider what he says in his press conferences.  Yes, some people don't take the press conferences too seriously and Grigson may just be trying to say something meaningless to get the press conference over with so he can go back to work (though he doesn't seem like that kind of guy), but that's one of the few things I have at my disposal to see what his rationale is.

 

At no point did I compare him to Millen or Al Davis.  I never said his methods remind me of Millen or Davis.  I used Millen and Davis as example that just because someone has "General Manager" in their job title and someone else doesn't, that doesn't mean those with the title are always correct and those without it are always incorrect.  For what it's worth, I'm sure Matt Millen and Al Davis would have had much better records than now if they had the #1 overall pick and Andrew Luck was available, but that's another story.

 

 

We're loaded with pass catchers at the WR position?

 

With all due respect, you just bemoaned the fact that Andre Johnson is old.

 

Beyond T.Y. Hilton and the aging Johnson, who are our proven pass catchers?  Moncrief?  He had a solid rookie year but it's a sample size of one season thus far.  Carter?  Might not even make the team.

 

How many guys come along with 4.27 speed and great ball skills? Not many.  Dorsett projects to be a good one.  In 3 years, the only starting WRs on the Colts may very well be Hilton, Moncrief, and Dorsett. 

I agree that Dorsett is a physical beast.  He's got insane speed and good hands.  Interestingly, I've read conflicting things regarding his route running.  I've read some report that say he's very good at them and other reports that say it's his biggest weakness.  However, I think we could have acquired good WR talent in the middle rounds while filling our front 7 with better talent in the first round.  Our proven pass catchers also include Allen and Fleener, and we also signed Vincent Brown this offseason.  Don't get me wrong here, Dorsett is much better than Brown.  But that's another body that will take up reps at training camp and OTAs.  I'm of the opinion that giving a player reps is the best thing for his development.  So losing reps is a big deal, in my opinion

[Superman]

I'm not trying to say Grigson wakes up and just feels good about a player, so he drafts him.  But I think there is the possibility that he buys into hype/name to some extent. 

 

The bolded is kinda what you said...

 

And hype from who? You don't think Grigson relies on his own evaluations of players before he goes after them?

 

If this were 2010, I'd be stoked about adding Trent Cole, Gore, and Andre.  In 2015, I'm still happy and I think they'll all contribute, but I think we need to have the right expectations. I just want to clarify that: I'm not saying these players will be terrible.  I think they will all contribute to our team and I'm happy to have them all on the roster. But I would be (pleasantly) surprised if Andre got 1000+ yards on 100+ receptions, Gore got 1000+ yards (depending on how many carries he gets and how they split his reps with Robinson and Herron), and Cole gets 10+ sacks.  Of course, those stats aren't the ultimate indicator of how a player contributes to a team.  All of those guys bring experience, Super Bowl experience in the case of Gore, and leadership.  So they bring a lot to the team.  I'm just not as excited about those additions as some others are.

 

To me, the bolded is what matters. These players are better than the guys they replaced, and they have team friendly contracts. They'll all contribute, and in areas that our team was lacking last season.

 

I don't think it's any secret that the coaching staff and front office were impressed by Werner's ability to knock down passes at FSU (in fact, Grigson was quoted as saying "This guy is productive, plays hard, eight batted passes this year I believe, plus 13 sacks..."  Werner fits in our defense (I should have clarified this point: he doesn't fit in our defense/he isn't being used in our defense the way Grigson and Pagano expected, but he does have a role in our defense) and has been a solid player, but he isn't at the level I would want from a first rounder.  Again, I'm not saying the only reason we got Werner is because he batted balls down in college.  I said that is seems like to me that Grigson buys into some hype around a guy's name or a few highlights.  Again, that's just my perception and opinion.  That doesn't mean it's how Grigson is doing business.

 

Why wouldn't they be excited about the player they just used a first rounder on? If he batted 8 passes, that's a good thing. But the 13 sacks and perceived quick get-off (which is where they missed, IMO; his get-off is poor, as is his burst, but he had good snap anticipation in college) are probably the real reasons they liked him, not how many passes he batted. As far as scouting goes, batted passes is probably a footnote. Werner was a bad pick, alright. It's obvious that he's not what they expected him to be; if he was, he would have been active in the biggest game of the season.

 

I'm not trying to undermine everything Grigson does.  I've stated on these forums that I'm giving Grigson this year to decide whether or not I think he should be fired.  Grigson has made some great moves for the team and I'm not undermining his work ethic or all of what he's done.  In regards to his press conferences, I just use it as a way to see how Grigson is thinking.  I don't have the luxury of being there to ask him what he means or being able to be in the war room when draft decisions are made, so I use what he says in press conferences as a sort of window to the mind to see what his rationale is.  If you're saying I nitpick in regards to the blue traits stuff, I even said I might be reading too closely into that.  Otherwise, I don't think it's anything crazy to consider what he says in his press conferences.  Yes, some people don't take the press conferences too seriously and Grigson may just be trying to say something meaningless to get the press conference over with so he can go back to work (though he doesn't seem like that kind of guy), but that's one of the few things I have at my disposal to see what his rationale is.

 

Combine that with criticizing the coachspeak, and it's just exhausting. It's not just making fun of him and Pagano for some of the things they say. It's to the point that I'd think you want them to not be excited about the players they sign/draft. "Yeah, we got this Werner kid, but we're not too sure about him. He's okay, I guess." "We just traded a first for this back, and we hope he works out, but you know, they traded him for a reason..." To me, being positive about a player acquisition isn't a bad thing.

 

At no point did I compare him to Millen or Al Davis.  I never said his methods remind me of Millen or Davis.  I used Millen and Davis as example that just because someone has "General Manager" in their job title and someone else doesn't, that doesn't mean those with the title are always correct and those without it are always incorrect.  For what it's worth, I'm sure Matt Millen and Al Davis would have had much better records than now if they had the #1 overall pick and Andrew Luck was available, but that's another story.

 

Well forgive me, then. But I hope you can understand where the confusion comes from. 'Matt Millen and Al Davis were GMs, too, doesn't mean they were good at it' kind of provokes a response. 

 

As for the "if they had Luck" thing, Bill Polian had Peyton Manning. He put together teams that were a total of 7 games worse in the first three years than Grigson's Colts with Luck, and they didn't win any playoff games. In their fourth year, they went 6-10 with a -73 point differential, and the coach got fired. The Saints, with Drew Brees, are 25-23 the last three seasons. We don't have to rely on a hypothetical to understand that bad rosters with good QBs, especially rookies, don't go 33-15 with three playoff wins. Grigson deserves some credit, and that goes beyond just picking Luck. He's made many mistakes, and he might not be the right guy to build the long term contender that we want, but this team isn't 33-15 without a lot of Grigson's decisions.

 

I agree that Dorsett is a physical beast.  He's got insane speed and good hands.  Interestingly, I've read conflicting things regarding his route running.  I've read some report that say he's very good at them and other reports that say it's his biggest weakness.  However, I think we could have acquired good WR talent in the middle rounds while filling our front 7 with better talent in the first round.  Our proven pass catchers also include Allen and Fleener, and we also signed Vincent Brown this offseason.  Don't get me wrong here, Dorsett is much better than Brown.  But that's another body that will take up reps at training camp and OTAs.  I'm of the opinion that giving a player reps is the best thing for his development.  So losing reps is a big deal, in my opinion

 

I know this wasn't directed at me, but to the bolded, I think some mistake "didn't run a lot of routes" for "can't run a lot of routes." Miami's offense was severely limited, and Dorsett didn't get a lot of targets, but the routes he ran were all pretty good. There's room for refinement, absolutely. I wouldn't call him a technician. And he's so quick that some of his stick moves and double moves don't look the way some people want them to, but they're still very effective, mostly because of his speed and/or the fear of his speed. Reggie's post routes are a lot different than Dorsett's, but Dorsett gets plenty of separation with his quicker and more compact post. 

 

And I don't worry about camp reps. We had 10 or 12(?) receivers in camp last year. That's typical. Everyone gets their work in. Once the season starts, we'll probably have five -- Johnson, Hilton, Moncrief, Dorsett, Carter -- and everyone will get reps in practice.