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Can The Old-Timers Answer A Question For Me?


mightisright

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I have only been a football fan for about a decade (too young, was in college and a few years in Europe before that) and all of that time we've been SO blessed to be a playoff contender each year. So I don't have any history really to go on.

Has there always been the attitude that if you can't go to the playoffs, then you should lose out to get the best draft pics?

I'm NOT trying to continue that debate whether or not it's "logical" to tank to get the draft pick. I'm just wondering if this has always been the sentiment, that if you can't go to the playoffs your season is lost and you should play to lose to "win out" in the long term?

Is this a new thing? Or has it always been this way?

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Again, I'll say that this is not the thread for the win-no win to get the draft pick debate!

I dont remember this discussion 20-30 years ago

..but college players were not so hyped then...

In the 70s and 80s...rookie QBs never played unless there were injuries..

...and you rarely started rookie offensive linemen for any reason..

By the game was much more brutal then and the rookie QB could get seriously crushed

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I have only been a football fan for about a decade (too young, was in college and a few years in Europe before that) and all of that time we've been SO blessed to be a playoff contender each year. So I don't have any history really to go on.

Has there always been the attitude that if you can't go to the playoffs, then you should lose out to get the best draft pics?

I'm NOT trying to continue that debate whether or not it's "logical" to tank to get the draft pick. I'm just wondering if this has always been the sentiment, that if you can't go to the playoffs your season is lost and you should play to lose to "win out" in the long term?

Is this a new thing? Or has it always been this way?

No it's never been that way. No team does that, they would lose their entire fan base. It makes sense to do it, but likely if anyone ever did it there would be repercussions from the league.

The colts are in a rare situation. The team is a perennial 12+ win team. I think we have all come accustomed to "Winning" every season and for some people cheering for the team to lose to clinch a #1 overall draft pick is the equivalent of that win making the playoffs.

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With fans yeah if they aren't going to the playoffs yeah you want to see your team have as a high of a draft pick as you can. It's the way fans work.

With that said that's where you see a real devivde between players, coaches, and managment vs fans. The first group wants to win now because there is no promise that they are going to be around to see the benefit of having the highest draft pick they can.

I have no issue with Colts fans who want the top pick in fact I understand it. My only issue are with the fans who are throwing a hissy fit over the Colts winning after spending all year ripping them for having too much talent to not win games. Like I said I watched last night with the attitude the worst thing that can happen is we get the first pick and I wouldn't get upset when things would go bad last night. That's just me though.

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I dont remember this discussion 20-30 years ago

..but college players were not so hyped then...

In the 70s and 80s...rookie QBs never played unless there were injuries..

...and you rarely started rookie offensive linemen for any reason..

By the game was much more brutal then and the rookie QB could get seriously crushed

Anybody remember the pats debates the one time in recent years they didn't make the playoffs? Or the jets or other teams that have been trying for years to win their division and for a long time couldn't get over the hump? Did fans consider those seasons LOST because they didn't get to the playoffs and didn't "win" the draft?

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No it's never been that way. No team does that, they would lose their entire fan base. It makes sense to do it, but likely if anyone ever did it there would be repercussions from the league.

The colts are in a rare situation. The team is a perennial 12+ win team. I think we have all come accustomed to "Winning" every season and for some people cheering for the team to lose to clinch a #1 overall draft pick is the equivalent of that win making the playoffs.

Years ago..the suggestion of losing intentionally..or not trying completely to win

...was like being associated with the Taliban.....

.....You had to keep the fans faith or seats would be empty.....

Teams that gave up back then would be playing in front of 2.3 empty stadiums late in the year...

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I think some folks don't practice long term thinking or out of the box as you will because they are scared that they will be labled a bad fan. First of all, Colts lost thier first 10 games rather miserably. playoffs were out of the question. No, you don't tank on purpose but, you start working on next year to get better, and that would include the draft situation. Did the Colts not "tank" against the Jets and dump a perfect season? And at the same time set the playoff seeding so they would meet the Jets instead of the steelers or San Diego, and we all know where that got us. If the Colts were serious about winning early on, they would have shaken things up considerably. I don't think you tank, you just don't fix your problems right away.

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It used to be that we were so used to picking high that we took it for granted. Then we spent those picks on bust after bust. But OldUncleMark is right, college players weren't nearly as hyped back then.

I remember when I was in College I met a guy who's advertising firm was hired to promote Bo Jackson. He said that you would see more and more players doing that as time went on. I think he was absalutely right.

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I have only been a football fan for about a decade (too young, was in college and a few years in Europe before that) and all of that time we've been SO blessed to be a playoff contender each year. So I don't have any history really to go on.

Has there always been the attitude that if you can't go to the playoffs, then you should lose out to get the best draft pics?

I'm NOT trying to continue that debate whether or not it's "logical" to tank to get the draft pick. I'm just wondering if this has always been the sentiment, that if you can't go to the playoffs your season is lost and you should play to lose to "win out" in the long term?

Is this a new thing? Or has it always been this way?

This particular off-season will be a very new thing.

When you consider the fact that old school Colts teams often had very good defenses to go along with Johnny Unitas and later Bert Jones, and in fact did well with Earl Morrell as a backup QB when Johnny U got hurt..... then we see that there is really no template for the situation we're in right now.

I remember always rooting for the Colts regardless of the regular season situation and with little thought about the draft.... which was nowhere near the spectacle its been since 1980 when ESPN began covering it.

Once the draft became so popular, then from the early 80s pretty much through 1997.....when we often stunk.... it was just a forgone conclusion that on Draft Day I'd better get the heck up and eat breakfast in a hurry because we picked Top 5 all the time.

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This particular off-season will be a very new thing.

When you consider the fact that old school Colts teams often had very good defenses to go along with Johnny Unitas and later Bert Jones, and in fact did well with Earl Morrell as a backup QB when Johnny U got hurt..... then we see that there is really no template for the situation we're in right now.

I remember always rooting for the Colts regardless of the regular season situation and with little thought about the draft.... which was nowhere near the spectacle its been since 1980 when ESPN began covering it.

Once the draft became so popular, then from the early 80s pretty much through 1997.....when we often stunk.... it was just a forgone conclusion that on Draft Day I'd better get the heck up and eat breakfast in a hurry because we picked Top 5 all the time.

The old school Colts did have good management during certain eras in their history but on average we did poorly in a lot of drafts. We did go to two SBs prior to 2006 and won several divisional championships. We didn't have to tank any games because because we lost fair and square because of the lack of talent and coaching (any ole timers remember Frank Kush and Joe Thomas or either Jim Irsay when we was GM).

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Did the Colts not "tank" against the Jets and dump a perfect season? And at the same time set the playoff seeding so they would meet the Jets instead of the steelers or San Diego, and we all know where that got us.

You really think the Colts knew the Jets, in Rex Ryan's first year as head coach, would go on the road and knock off the Bengals AND go on the road and knock off the Chargers to set it up that way??? Then Polian must have also known that the Ravens would beat the Pats in their own home where they had not lost a playoff game till then so that the #6 seed would play the Colts in the divisional round and not the #5 seed, the Jets??? Man, Bill Polian should have bought a lottery ticket then. It was a rational improbability to predict how the Jets and the other AFC playoff teams would do, especially based on how the teams were playing heading into the playoffs with the Jets losing several winnable games before the Colts and Bengals laid down for them in the last two. The Bengals, Colts and Chargers were consistent winning teams that played well throughout the year.

I can agree with the dumping of a perfect season somewhat but the playoff seeding manipulation assertion is as far fetched as it can get, IMO.

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You really think the Colts knew the Jets, in Rex Ryan's first year as head coach, would go on the road and knock off the Bengals AND go on the road and knock off the Chargers to set it up that way??? Then Polian must have also known that the Ravens would beat the Pats in their own home where they had not lost a playoff game till then so that the #6 seed would play the Colts in the divisional round and not the #5 seed, the Jets??? Man, Bill Polian should have bought a lottery ticket then. It was a rational improbability to predict how the Jets and the other AFC playoff teams would do, especially based on how the teams were playing heading into the playoffs with the Jets losing several winnable games before the Colts and Bengals laid down for them in the last two. The Bengals, Colts and Chargers were consistent winning teams that played well throughout the year.

I can agree with the dumping of a perfect season somewhat but the playoff seeding manipulation assertion is as far fetched as it can get, IMO.

No but I wouldn't have put it past them to go you know the Jets being the playoffs is better for us than the Steelers or Texans (who were the other two teams in contention that year). I don't know if that was the over riding factor but it wouldn't shock me at all if that was part of it.

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I have only been a football fan for about a decade (too young, was in college and a few years in Europe before that) and all of that time we've been SO blessed to be a playoff contender each year. So I don't have any history really to go on.

Has there always been the attitude that if you can't go to the playoffs, then you should lose out to get the best draft pics?

I'm NOT trying to continue that debate whether or not it's "logical" to tank to get the draft pick. I'm just wondering if this has always been the sentiment, that if you can't go to the playoffs your season is lost and you should play to lose to "win out" in the long term?

Is this a new thing? Or has it always been this way?

Part of the sentiment you see here results from the cumulative effect our bottom of the draft selection order has had for the past decade or so.

Building a mostly unbalanced team around one player within those confines, for the most part, without having a formula for winning beyond that has helped put the Colts where they are. With a variety of needs to be addressed and potential for a lot of turnover in veteran leadership, folks here just want to see the team get its best bang for the buck in April. A terrible record is a terrible record......I personally don't care if it's 1-15, 2-14 or 3-13.....but the higher you pick the more potential you have to influence draft ordering and filling your needs.

This past April, Castonzo at #22 of the 1st was the highest we've selected in a long time. Once you get outside the top 10 - maybe 15 players you can often see the "impact factor" start to drop off. It varies year to year, and also depends on philosophy. The Colts actually traded down to get Reggie Wayne later in the 1st and that's the last time I can recall the team doing that. Going back further......the last time the Colts selected at/near the top of the order it was for Manning and EJ. Again, it's just a rare opportunity and we all want to see the team improve. Opinions vary on how to get it done.

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I think some folks don't practice long term thinking or out of the box as you will because they are scared that they will be labled a bad fan. First of all, Colts lost thier first 10 games rather miserably. playoffs were out of the question. No, you don't tank on purpose but, you start working on next year to get better, and that would include the draft situation. Did the Colts not "tank" against the Jets and dump a perfect season? And at the same time set the playoff seeding so they would meet the Jets instead of the steelers or San Diego, and we all know where that got us. If the Colts were serious about winning early on, they would have shaken things up considerably. I don't think you tank, you just don't fix your problems right away.

1. It has nothing to do with their line of thinking. It doesn't require "out of the box" thinking to want to lose. Quite the opposite, actually. That's a quitter's mentality; not a plan for long-term success.

2. We are working on next year, by winning now and building some momentum. These guys are showing their heart, and proving they can win without 1 guy - which means they can be lethal with him. We are also developing a lot of young players, trying out a lot of undrafted guys and free agents, and having relatively "break-out" years from guys we thought to be disappointments: Wheeler and Brown, for instance.

3. We didn't tank against the Jets. We rested our starters, but still intended for our back ups to win. Polian made that decision (supposedly), but not so that we would intentionally lose. He did it because he knew we were in the playoffs, needed no more momentum, but wanted to put the best guys out there to win in January. Guess what? We made the Super Bowl, so the idea that rest = rust was overwhelmingly destroyed. Since we currently don't have a post season to look forward to, the right decision is to play the best guys now and try to win. They will get plenty of rest after next week.

4. Problems can't be fixed right away. You are correct there. That's exactly why you don't shake things up considerably out of nowhere. Careful planning, thorough assessment, and prudent decision making is what gets teams ahead. The Patriots, Steelers, and Colts have been the best franchises for a decade, and they all operate in relatively the same fashion. While the Patriots are a little more aggressive in terms of player personnel movements, they also haven't won a Super Bowl since 2004. The Steelers and Colts play "next man up." None of those three teams are prone to knee-jerk reactions. Does that make them "not serious" about winning?

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this happens a lot at the end of the year. i remember the commissioner threatening teams about not playing to win games at the end of the year.

why should the colts play top players and take a chance of them getting hurt when the game not only means absolutely nothing, but they benefit if they loose. young teams that have had losing records for a while need to build for next year, a veteran team that has won for years doesn't. they know what it takes to win. these games should be treated like pre-season games. see what the back-ups have and that will help for next year.

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I think there is a general believe that if you are going to be BAD, better to be REALLY bad!!! In the long run, it likely helps your team better then winning a couple games to end on a high note.

Just think of this. In 1997 the Colts had to lose to the Vikings and the Cardinals had to beat the Falcons for the Colts to get the #1 pick, which was Peyton Manning. If both events didn't happen, we would have never had him. So was it good we lost that year?

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Did someome mention Bert Jones...Ahhh the memories, he's the reason I became a Colts fan, that and the uniform.

Here comes the monkey wrench. In the past, the salary cap would put a meaning to winning, as in, if your team wins it doesn't get draft pick, and a owner would save some cash by not drafting a player a a high draft pick, save a little at 8-10 enstead of the top 5. Remember I'm just speculating here.

Now , today we have rookie salary cap, no more instant multi-millionare, so teams can draft high and not spend alot of money on a player that could end up being a bust.

So by putting the two remarks together, yes, today, a team could tank on purpose to get a better draft position. But I don't see most NFL teams doing that, it just doesn't fit the scheme of the sport.

And to let anyone think I was referring to this team, by no meas was I, this team didn't give up, especially the defense, didn't miss one game this year, wasn't the greatest season but I enjoyed it, 'cause I'm a football first.Be gentle on me please.

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