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OLD FAN MAN

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NewColtsFan

NewColtsFan 8,406

Posted
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No.     And I'm a Pags fan,  but no.

 

Belichick has earned it.    Pags hasn't yet.

 

And the Pats have a DC,  Belichick isn't it.

 

And the Pats have front office personnel who do the majority of the work,  but Belichick gets the final say.....

 

Pags hasn't earned all that......

 

Let him focus on just being the HC....   and that's all....

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LJpalmbeacher2

LJpalmbeacher2 1,798

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should the colts operate like the pats and have pags be head coach and gm? also what about head coach, gm and defensive coach all in one? it has worked for the pats.

Pags job as HC May be hanging on a thread so I am seriously doubting they will increase his responsibilities!

Can you enlighten me why you think he can do all that? I'm not knocking him or your idea But he doesn't seem to be that cerebral to me. Certainly not like Belicheck.

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crazycolt1

crazycolt1 7,420

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Can we stop trying to BE the Patriots and just focus on beating them and becoming a better team?  That's hard enough to do without changing our organizational structure.

I agree. This Patriot obsession is getting old. As long as we keep getting better players in we will beat the Patriots. I wouldn't want the Colts to have the reputation the Patriots have outside of the Boston area.

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SteelDragon

SteelDragon 29

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Luck is cerebral and deserves a cerebral head coach and offensive coordinator. Do you all think Pags and Pep have the creativity to maximize Luck's potential? I don't know but I'm curious to see how others feel about this.

No way am I increasing Pag's responsibilities

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southwest1

southwest1 2,092

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No.     And I'm a Pags fan,  but no.

 

Belichick has earned it.    Pags hasn't yet.

 

And the Pats have a DC,  Belichick isn't it.

 

And the Pats have front office personnel who do the majority of the work,  but Belichick gets the final say.....

 

Pags hasn't earned all that......

 

Let him focus on just being the HC....   and that's all....

NCF more or less hit every point I was thinking. Belichick's record even as the NY Giants DC in the early 90's gave him the jewelry/clout he needed to consolidate the HC & GM roles into a dual position. 

 

Pagano just needs to coach period. That's it. I remember when Mike Holmgren got the Seattle gig allowing him to become both the GM & primary coach. It was a disaster.

 

Generally, coaches have no business drafting guys just work on formations, schemes, 2 minute drills, & goal line stuff.  

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southwest1

southwest1 2,092

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:lol:

This thread can't be serious

TK, 

 

Just out of curiosity since you're not a fan of Pagano's coaching record since 2012, who would you prefer to see on the sidelines instead? Chuck has been successful & it's not as if a proven name like Tom Coughlin is just waiting to be plucked out there you know. 

 

I will admit that Pagano needs to find a way to neutralize NE & Pittsburgh yes, but he hasn't missed the Playoffs under his INDY tenure yet & that should carry some substantial weight should it not?

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southwest1

southwest1 2,092

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Can we stop trying to BE the Patriots and just focus on beating them and becoming a better team?

That sounds good except for 1 thing: The Patriots are at the top of the Lombardi mountain peak right now. Therefore, they are the best & they automatically become the measuring stick by which every other team judges itself right now Flash7. It is what it is...

 

Success will always be carbon copied no matter what. Don't hate their franchise simply because INDY got creamed by them in the AFC Championship Game. Figure out a way to flip the outcome the next time INDY collides with NE. 

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TKnight24

TKnight24 2,097

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TK,

Just out of curiosity since you're not a fan of Pagano's coaching record since 2012, who would you prefer to see on the sidelines instead? Chuck has been successful & it's not as if a proven name like Tom Coughlin is just waiting to be plucked out there you know.

I will admit that Pagano needs to find a way to neutralize NE & Pittsburgh yes, but he hasn't missed the Playoffs under his INDY tenure yet & that should carry some substantial weight should it not?

Chud or any coach that makes in game adjustments. Pagano is a great guy, great victory over cancer, etc etc but I feel he's being these players friend instead of boss.

He isn't stern enough imo. It's no reason the players who stink it up should be given so many chances that chuck gives them

And then at times we just look so unprepared. The Jags have a worse roster than us and even they don't take the whoopings we do against top teams so it has to be the Coaching

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southwest1

southwest1 2,092

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Chud or any coach that makes in game adjustments. Pagano is a great guy, great victory over cancer, etc etc but I feel he's being these players friend instead of boss.

He isn't stern enough imo. It's no reason the players who stink it up should be given so many chances that chuck gives them

And then at times we just look so unprepared. The Jags have a worse roster than us and even they don't take the whoopings we do against top teams so it has to be the Coaching

Thanks for your reply TK. I just wanted to know what motivated you to express dissatisfaction with Coach Pagano. It sounds to me that you are more upset with DC Greg Manusky than Chuck perse & to be fair, the Jags D is improving. 

 

I will admit that this is a crucial year for Pagano, but I can't make any decisions about the fate of this staff until after this upcoming season. I won't create waves now, but I think Chuck will be more vocal this year & equip this squad with a sense of urgency & renewed intensity. Time will tell.

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TKnight24

TKnight24 2,097

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Thanks for your reply TK. I just wanted to know what motivated you to express dissatisfaction with Coach Pagano. It sounds to me that you are more upset with DC Greg Manusky than Chuck perse & to be fair, the Jags D is improving.

I will admit that this is a crucial year for Pagano, but I can't make any decisions about the fate of this staff until after this upcoming season. I won't create waves now, but I think Chuck will be more vocal this year & equip this squad with a sense of urgency & renewed intensity. Time will tell.

Upset will all 3. Pep, Manusky, and Pagano. None of them make adjustments. They just run their plays and hope for the best

Prime Example for Manuksy: Pitt game when Vontae went out with the injury, no adjustments made and Josh Gordy got torched. They destroyed us with the bunch formation and crossing routes

Prime Example for Pep: Almost every game. And that dumb pulling Guard play he swears we can run when we can't. Lack of a run game, he does nothing to substitute or make up for it. Lacks creativity unless it's against Denver and New England

Prime Example for Chuck: He's the HC, if your coordinators aren't making adjustments, overrule them and you make them

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southwest1

southwest1 2,092

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Upset will all 3. Pep, Manusky, and Pagano. None of them make adjustments. They just run their plays and hope for the best

Prime Example for Manuksy: Pitt game when Vontae went out with the injury, no adjustments made and Josh Gordy got torched. They destroyed us with the bunch formation and crossing routes

Prime Example for Pep: Almost every game. And that dumb pulling Guard play he swears we can run when we can't. Lack of a run game, he does nothing to substitute or make up for it. Lacks creativity unless it's against Denver and New England

Prime Example for Chuck: He's the HC, if your coordinators aren't making adjustments, overrule them and you make them

I'm not defending Manusky, but after Vontae Davis went down in Pittsburgh, I think we all knew that game was over & INDY was going to be crushed in that game. Pep is tough call though because Luck had him at Stanford University & I'm not altering that bond & trust that Andrew has with Hamilton. Also, at this stage in his development, forcing Luck to learn a new playbook would be an enormous setback to his confidence & you never mess with a QB's mojo when he just got to the game before the SB this past season. That would be beyond stupid. 

 

Overriding your coordinator on the sideline in front of his unit in a live game is never good idea unless it's the final play in the SB TK. I say that because a HC can't undermine that coordinator's authority in front of his men. Behind closed doors 1 on 1 you can overrule a coordinator not in a live game though. 

 

If anybody's gone next year, it would be Greg Manusky not Pagano or Grigs for that matter. I wish Chuck cold have gotten his brother John Pagano to come with him to INDY in 2012 because I like his aggressiveness but he seems to like California weather so I can't picture him moving to the Midwest to join his sibling anytime soon. 

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a06cc

a06cc 462

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Posted

I was thinking and I hope I'm right. We hit big on Grigson first draft. Luck, Fleener, Hitlon and Allen. It's a must to keep those 4. Now the next 2 drafts were add players to positions of needs. We traded a first and a second round pick. Vontae was a great, he fit our system. Was a big fan of Trent, he just didn't fit our system at the time. We also added developmental players. Werner, Moncrief, Mewhort, Thornton, Holmes. This draft we'll be in a position to added the next 4 must keeps. Grigson will hit on this draft I believe. Pagano is fine this season for his job. As long as he gets the best players available that fit his system.

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#12

#12 0

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should the colts operate like the pats and have pags be head coach and gm? also what about head coach, gm and defensive coach all in one? it has worked for the pats.

 

Only two things stand out in my mind about Pagano scouting players.  One, he worked out Werner and loved him.  Two, he was high on Richardson.

 

So, no. 

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Defjamz26

Defjamz26 2,050

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Good god no. I like Pagano but he would be a terrible GM. He'd draft nothing but 340+ pound defensive players with no speed and probably sign as many ex-Ravens as possible.

When it comes to player personnel, I only trust his opinion on DBs. I hope when the scouts break down tape on DBs, they go to Pagano for input

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Superman

Superman 9,225

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Only two things stand out in my mind about Pagano scouting players.  One, he worked out Werner and loved him.  Two, he was high on Richardson.

 

So, no. 

 

Everyone in the world -- aside from Jim Brown, who I can assure you doesn't watch film -- was high on Richardson. And Werner was at one point considered a top five prospect in the 2013 draft.

 

And since we're using Belichick as a comparison, let's not forget that he has first rounders like Patrick Chung, Laurence Maroney, Daniel Graham... With the 33rd pick in the 2011 draft, they chose Ras-I Dowling. Everyone misses, including the high and mighty Belichick. And believe it or not, it gets a lot worse than Richardson and Werner.

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Slick_Rick

Slick_Rick 0

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Everyone in the world -- aside from Jim Brown, who I can assure you doesn't watch film -- was high on Richardson. And Werner was at one point considered a top five prospect in the 2013 draft.

 

And since we're using Belichick as a comparison, let's not forget that he has first rounders like Patrick Chung, Laurence Maroney, Daniel Graham... With the 33rd pick in the 2011 draft, they chose Ras-I Dowling. Everyone misses, including the high and mighty Belichick. And believe it or not, it gets a lot worse than Richardson and Werner.

Hit the nail on the head. I think the one thing that sets the BB apart is that he is very active in the draft. He stockpiles mid-round picks. When you are getting around as many picks all over the board as the Pats get, it's no wonder they hit on a lot of players. As much as I don't like him, Bill Belichick and his scouting department have done pretty well.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm

Some of these drafts are pretty darn good. They have been hitting far more than they've been missing since 2009, especially.

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#12

#12 0

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Everyone in the world -- aside from Jim Brown, who I can assure you doesn't watch film -- was high on Richardson. And Werner was at one point considered a top five prospect in the 2013 draft.

 

That's fine, but was everyone on earth still high on Richardson by the time he was traded to the Colts, or Werner by the time he was drafted?  There's a reason Richardson was traded.  There's a reason why Werner dropped in the draft. 

 

And believe it or not, it gets a lot worse than Richardson and Werner.

 

 

It couldn't possibly get much worse than Richardson.  The #3 was spent on him; a first rounder was traded for him.  Sure, you've had complete busts at the top of the draft, but no one turned around and spent a #1 for them following year.  We'll see with Werner.  The guy's a first rounder.  To date, he's a pretty damn big bust for a first rounder. 

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Superman

Superman 9,225

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That's fine, but was everyone on earth still high on Richardson by the time he was traded to the Colts, or Werner by the time he was drafted?  There's a reason Richardson was traded.  There's a reason why Werner dropped in the draft. 

 

Um, yeah, pretty much. Everyone thought the Richardson trade was in the Colts favor at the time. Werner was a consensus first rounder. He didn't really drop; the top five projections were overly ambitious, but he was still a highly rated prospect all the way through.

 

It couldn't possibly get much worse than Richardson.  The #3 was spent on him; a first rounder was traded for him.  Sure, you've had complete busts at the top of the draft, but no one turned around and spent a #1 for them following year.  We'll see with Werner.  The guy's a first rounder.  To date, he's a pretty damn big bust for a first rounder.

 

 

 

Richardson wasn't a bust after 2012. 

 

But talk about spending multiple firsts on a bad player. How about three firsts and a second for Robert Griffin? There's Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch... There's Lawrence Phillips, the guy that prompted the Rams to trade Jerome Bettis to the Steelers. There's Jamarcus Russell. The Jaguars chose Blaine Gabbert ahead of JJ Watt.

 

Anyways, the point is that if we're going to beat up on Colts management for being high on Richardson, then no one should be allowed to make draft decisions. Not Grigson, not Pagano, not anyone in the NFL, not any of the draft experts and analysts, certainly no one on this forum... There are certain players that get drafted in the first round, and everyone is like "what in the world are they thinking?" RIchardson and Werner aren't in that category.

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NewColtsFan

NewColtsFan 8,406

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No kidding!  We all like Coach Chuck...he 's a good guy...but he is not a tier 1 head coach.

 

 

There are very, very few tier 1 head coaches.

 

So, saying Chuck isn't one of them isn't the worst thing anyone has said about him........

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theanarchist

theanarchist 23

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should the colts operate like the pats and have pags be head coach and gm? also what about head coach, gm and defensive coach all in one? it has worked for the pats.

This is the exception. Not the rule. When Pagano has won 3 or 4 superbowls maybe he would be ready to run the entire show but history has shown that coaches who try to be GM also typically fail or burn out quick...See Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson and Parcells.

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BillCoslosky87

BillCoslosky87 1,144

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Chud or any coach that makes in game adjustments. Pagano is a great guy, great victory over cancer, etc etc but I feel he's being these players friend instead of boss.

He isn't stern enough imo. It's no reason the players who stink it up should be given so many chances that chuck gives them

And then at times we just look so unprepared. The Jags have a worse roster than us and even they don't take the whoopings we do against top teams so it has to be the Coaching

You're right.

We need Bill Cowher!

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TKnight24

TKnight24 2,097

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You're right.

We need Bill Cowher!

Need someone. Not calling for a coach change yet, but all 3 coaches seriously need to upgrade themselves

Be more creative and flexible. Thinking the same plan is gonna work every week is the reason we get blown out the way we do

Each time we face New England we played them the exact same way, it's honestly sad

only time we played them different was when Arians was OC and thus the result of us being in the game until late

You gotta be aggressive, and Pagano isn't that guy to preach that

Neither is Pep or Manusky

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