Multiple league sources expect Colts to make strong push for Ndamakung Suh

[Superman]

Indianapolis very low cost of living compared to most major cities. Far lower than a city like Oakland, NYC, Miami, or Detroit. Just look at Detroit auto insurance rates. (I had a client once with a premium of $90,000 a year for 4 cars, 2 of them liability only)

 

I think we'd be able to get Suh for around 14-15 million a year.

 

I don't think that's a major factor. I think he and his agent want to be able to say that he got the richest contract with the most guaranteed money for a defensive player in the history of the NFL.

[jvan1973]

Indianapolis very low cost of living compared to most major cities. Far lower than a city like Oakland, NYC, Miami, or Detroit. Just look at Detroit auto insurance rates. (I had a client once with a premium of $90,000 a year for 4 cars, 2 of them liability only)

I think we'd be able to get Suh for around 14-15 million a year.

zero state tax in Florida

[jskinnz]

Indianapolis very low cost of living compared to most major cities. Far lower than a city like Oakland, NYC, Miami, or Detroit. Just look at Detroit auto insurance rates. (I had a client once with a premium of $90,000 a year for 4 cars, 2 of them liability only)

 

I think we'd be able to get Suh for around 14-15 million a year.

 

Oh Holy moly.

 

He wants to be the highest paid defender in the league.  That is what has been reported as a driving factor for him.  The cost of living is not relative for a person who will have his future income. 

[bababooey]

whatever he wants is worth it. absolutely without a doubt

[bavanlan]

zero state tax in Florida

Indiana's is 3.4%, plus since your tax rate is based on the state you're playing in, it only impacts half the games. Net difference is only 1.7%, which on a $100m is $1.7m.

[Mitch Connors]

Will someone explain 3-technique?

I understand the difference between nose and ends and gap responsibility (I think) but this term is lost on me.

Thanks

[Superman]

So here's a question I've been meaning to ask you....    and apologies if it seems like I'm giving you homework,  or some type of math problem to solve....

 

The question is this:     Can the Colts afford to sign Suh?     Say it requires 6/105  (17.5 per)  with 65 Mill guaranteed.

 

What happens to the Colts salary cap?    Can we afford any other free agents?    Does it kill us for the class of 2012?

 

Everyone has an opinion about Suh,  and since you're our resident Salary Cap Expect (SCE)  it felt like we should hear from you!

 

Thanks.

 

(Cue theme to Mission Impossible Music!)

 

<<Good Morning,  Superman:    Your mission, should you choose to accept it,  is to help the Colts figure out if they can afford Ndomican Suh. (Sp?)   Doing this will either calm or inflame the masses here.    Should you or any of your SCE team be captured  or killed,  NCF will disavow any knowledge of your actions.    Good luck, Superman!>>

 

I accept the mission. All the details are hidden in the below spoiler tag. If you click and read, get ready for a bunch of technical cap stuff.

 

Six years, $105m, $65m guaranteed. I'm going to limit the guaranteed money to the first three years, so there's a $15m signing bonus (SB), then in Year 2, there's a $12.5m option bonus (OB). Those will both be evenly divided up over five years. He's getting a total of $30m in 2015.

 

That also means that almost 62% of the total contract value will be paid in the first three years.

 

The "salary" will include potential roster bonuses and incentives and whatnot (which will probably be features of his contract, but are treated as salary for accounting purposes). The salaries have to be a little front-loaded, and they are basically guaranteed through 2017. The option bonus isn't guaranteed, but very likely to be paid, so it gets counted among the guaranteed money.

Specifics and mechanics can be changed, but that's the ballpark you'd be in. Pretty much can't cut him in the first three years.

 

Right away, that takes this year's cap space down to about $20m, and we still need to sign draft picks. Takes our cap space in 2016 down to about $80m.

 

If we extend Hilton, Fleener and Allen this year, it would increase their cap hits at least slightly, and it would add at least $15-17m/year to the cap obligations over the following four years. If we extend AC, it could reduce his cap hit this year slightly, but it would add $7-9m/year over the next five years. If we extend Luck, it would increase his cap hit this year and add $17-20m+/year over the next six years. So subtract another ~$39m from our cap space in 2016, and we're down to about $40m. 

 

That's not including any other free agents we might want to sign, particularly if they sign multi-year contracts.

Year         SB          OB       Salary         Cap Hit      Dead Money2015        $3.0m                 $14.5m        $17.5m        $52.5m2016        $3.0m      $2.5m      $11.0m        $16.5m        $47.5m2017        $3.0m      $2.5m      $12.5m        $18.0m        $29.5m2018        $3.0m      $2.5m      $12.5m        $18.0m        $13.5m2019        $3.0m      $2.5m      $13.5m        $19.0m        $8.0m2020                   $2.5m      $13.5m        $16.0m        $2.5m

 

So, to answer your questions, we can afford it. It doesn't kill the cap, but it does take a HUGE chunk out of our walking around money. We could probably afford a couple more free agents, but they'd have to be limited in terms of Year 2 guaranteed money. And most importantly, it does NOT hurt our ability to re-sign the upcoming free agents we want to keep: AC, Luck, Fleener, Allen and Hilton.

 

Short answer: It's do-able. Very expensive, but do-able. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Superman

[Superman]

Indiana's is 3.4%, plus since your tax rate is based on the state you're playing in, it only impacts half the games. Net difference is only 1.7%, which on a $100m is $1.7m.

 

You sure about that bolded part? I thought it was based on where you live. Derek Jeter went through a big deal about this, because his residence was Florida, but he worked in NY.

 

Also, if it's based on the state you play in, then when we go to Buffalo, that's one game at NY rates. And so on... If that's true, it gets more complex.

[dw49]

You sure about that bolded part? I thought it was based on where you live. Derek Jeter went through a big deal about this, because his residence was Florida, but he worked in NY.

 

Also, if it's based on the state you play in, then when we go to Buffalo, that's one game at NY rates. And so on... If that's true, it gets more complex.

 

 

That's how it works for the base salary. If the player is paid by the game , it would be like 8 games in Indiana , one in Houston , one in Tenn etc etc. So a colt would owe the state on indiana half his base at the tax rate of the state. Tenn would be owed 1/16th etc . What I wonder about would be the signing and roster bonuses paid out.

[dw49]

Indiana's is 3.4%, plus since your tax rate is based on the state you're playing in, it only impacts half the games. Net difference is only 1.7%, which on a $100m is $1.7m.

 

Like I said in the above post with Super ... what about the bonus money ? Would that be pro rated per game ? I doubt it... and if not wouldn't it throw off what you have above ?

[NewColtsFan]

I accept the mission. All the details are hidden in the below spoiler tag. If you click and read, get ready for a bunch of technical cap stuff.

 

Six years, $105m, $65m guaranteed. I'm going to limit the guaranteed money to the first three years, so there's a $15m signing bonus (SB), then in Year 2, there's a $12.5m option bonus (OB). Those will both be evenly divided up over five years. He's getting a total of $30m in 2015.

 

That also means that almost 62% of the total contract value will be paid in the first three years.

 

The "salary" will include potential roster bonuses and incentives and whatnot (which will probably be features of his contract, but are treated as salary for accounting purposes). The salaries have to be a little front-loaded, and they are basically guaranteed through 2017. The option bonus isn't guaranteed, but very likely to be paid, so it gets counted among the guaranteed money.

Specifics and mechanics can be changed, but that's the ballpark you'd be in. Pretty much can't cut him

 

Right away, that takes this year's cap space down to about $20m, and we still need to sign draft picks. Takes our cap space in 2016 down to about $80m.

 

If we extend Hilton, Fleener and Allen this year, it would increase their cap hits at least slightly, and it would add at least $15-17m/year to the cap obligations over the following four years. If we extend AC, it could reduce his cap hit this year slightly, but it would add $7-9m/year over the next five years. If we extend Luck, it would increase his cap hit this year and add $17-20m+/year over the next six years. So subtract another ~$39m from our cap space in 2016, and we're down to about $40m. 

 

That's not including any other free agents we might want to sign, particularly if they sign multi-year contracts.

Year         SB          OB       Salary         Cap Hit      Dead Money2015        $3.0m                 $14.5m        $17.5m        $52.5m2016        $3.0m      $2.5m      $11.0m        $16.5m        $47.5m2017        $3.0m      $2.5m      $12.5m        $18.0m        $29.5m2018        $3.0m      $2.5m      $12.5m        $18.0m        $13.5m2019        $3.0m      $2.5m      $13.5m        $19.0m        $8.0m2020                   $2.5m      $13.5m        $16.0m        $2.5m

 

So, to answer your questions, we can afford it. It doesn't kill the cap, but it does take a HUGE chunk out of our walking around money. We could probably afford a couple more free agents, but they'd have to be limited in terms of Year 2 guaranteed money. And most importantly, it does NOT hurt our ability to re-sign the upcoming free agents we want to keep: AC, Luck, Fleener, Allen and Hilton.

 

Short answer: It's do-able. Very expensive, but do-able. 

 

Wow.....                

 

I think my head just went              

 

Now....   it may be obvious to you, and perhaps it should be obvious to me....    But....

 

Where do we come up with the $65 Mill guaranteed over the first 3 years?      I'm not seeing numbers in the first 3 years that add up to the $65 Mil.    

 

Can we go back to the routine where you explain it me like I'm a 6-year old?!?     That worked well the last time!         

[Superman]

That's how it works for the base salary. If the player is paid by the game , it would be like 8 games in Indiana , one in Houston , one in Tenn etc etc. So a colt would owe the state on indiana half his base at the tax rate of the state. Tenn would be owed 1/16th etc . What I wonder about would be the signing and roster bonuses paid out.

 

Both you and Bav are pretty confident about this, so I'll take you guys at your word. But that's contrary to how I understood it.

[Superman]

Wow.....              

 

I think my head just went            

 

Now....   it may be obvious to you, and perhaps it should be obvious to me....    But....

 

Where do we come up with the $65 Mill guaranteed over the first 3 years?      I'm not seeing numbers in the first 3 years that add up to the $65 Mil.    

 

Can we go back to the routine where you explain it me like I'm a 6-year old?!?     That worked well the last time!         

 

The chart is how it's broken down for cap accounting. The relevant numbers are the signing bonus of $15m, the option bonus of $12.5m, and the salaries of $14.5m, $11m and $12.5m. Add those together, and you get $65.5m (the extra $.5m is a little accounting accident, and there might be others because I didn't cross check all my math). That's all guaranteed, and it's all paid in the first three years.

[bavanlan]

Both you and Bav are pretty confident about this, so I'll take you guys at your word. But that's contrary to how I understood it.

You can lock that one in.

[dw49]

Both you and Bav are pretty confident about this, so I'll take you guys at your word. But that's contrary to how I understood it.

 

 

I'm not real confident about anything other than I'm getting fat , old and bald. Just to be clear.. even if base salaries are figured the way Bav and I think , I have reservations on applying that to bonus money players receive.

[NewColtsFan]

The chart is how it's broken down for cap accounting. The relevant numbers are the signing bonus of $15m, the option bonus of $12.5m, and the salaries of $14.5m, $11m and $12.5m. Add those together, and you get $65.5m (the extra $.5m is a little accounting accident, and there might be others because I didn't cross check all my math). That's all guaranteed, and it's all paid in the first three years.

 

Ahhhhh.....    got it!

 

I didn't quite understand the option bonus thingy....   

 

(Once upon a time I was actually good in math...    but once I had to start taking off my shoes and socks so I could count on my toes that was a game changer!!)

 

Now the questions are....   will we make this type of offer....   and will it be good enough.

 

I think the Florida teams with $$$ to spend have the inside track because of no state tax.   I've read where that could mean an additional $13 million for Suh.     That seems like a huge hurdle to overcome for any other team not in Florida.

[John Dee]

Have you never watched this guy play?   He could play DE in a 43 IF Detroit asked him to...   He is an OVER the T,G,C type of DL that is a NIGHTMARE to game plan for.     He is a poor mans Reggie White.         and I'll take that EVERY day of the week.   He demands a double or triple team EVERY down.    He will make Art Jones a perenial All Pro.     He just makes everythng easier for every other player on the DL.   

 

If Indy can make it happen GET HIM.     The QB is here, if Suh can get in the fold and stay in the game ....    Look out for the Colts.

 

I really think this has a GREAT chance of happening..

Where does Suh play in a 3-4?

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I would be surprised if we signed him, a little to expensive I think! Certainly would be a catch though!

[John Dee]

If he wants to win and still get his $$$    He is coming to Indy.  

 

Irsay is going to make him a very serious offer. 

Ahhhhh.....    got it!

 

I didn't quite understand the option bonus thingy....   

 

(Once upon a time I was actually good in math...    but once I had to start taking off my shoes and socks so I could count on my toes that was a game changer!!)

 

Now the questions are....   will we make this type of offer....   and will it be good enough.

 

I think the Florida teams with $$$ to spend have the inside track because of no state tax.   I've read where that could mean an additional $13 million for Suh.     That seems like a huge hurdle to overcome for any other team not in Florida.

[Superman]

Ahhhhh.....    got it!

 

I didn't quite understand the option bonus thingy....   

 

(Once upon a time I was actually good in math...    but once I had to start taking off my shoes and socks so I could count on my toes that was a game changer!!)

 

Now the questions are....   will we make this type of offer....   and will it be good enough.

 

I think the Florida teams with $$$ to spend have the inside track because of no state tax.   I've read where that could mean an additional $13 million for Suh.     That seems like a huge hurdle to overcome for any other team not in Florida.

 

An option bonus is just a second signing bonus. It's a way to load up more guaranteed money in the first couple of years without having it count against the cap right away.

 

To the bolded, I don't think so, but I don't know anything.

 

As for the tax difference between Indy and Florida, it's a total of less than $2m, based on what Bav and dw49 said earlier. Indiana's tax rate if 3.4%, and that only applies to the 8 home games. So while there might be a $13m difference between NY and Florida, it's far less of a difference between Indy and Florida.

[dw49]

Indiana's is 3.4%, plus since your tax rate is based on the state you're playing in, it only impacts half the games. Net difference is only 1.7%, which on a $100m is $1.7m.

  It's about double that according to this link. But you're really pretty close as 1.5 mill is not a huge amount considering were talking about 101 mill.

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25091772/agents-take-how-uncle-sam-could-decide-where-ndamukong-suh-plays

[dw49]

An option bonus is just a second signing bonus. It's a way to load up more guaranteed money in the first couple of years without having it count against the cap right away.

 

To the bolded, I don't think so, but I don't know anything.

 

As for the tax difference between Indy and Florida, it's a total of less than $2m, based on what Bav and dw49 said earlier. Indiana's tax rate if 3.4%, and that only applies to the 8 home games. So while there might be a $13m difference between NY and Florida, it's far less of a difference between Indy and Florida.

 

An option bonus is just a second signing bonus. It's a way to load up more guaranteed money in the first couple of years without having it count against the cap right away.

 

To the bolded, I don't think so, but I don't know anything.

 

As for the tax difference between Indy and Florida, it's a total of less than $2m, based on what Bav and dw49 said earlier. Indiana's tax rate if 3.4%, and that only applies to the 8 home games. So while there might be a $13m difference between NY and Florida, it's far less of a difference between Indy and Florida.

 

 

Here ya go.. hopefully it's accurate, Same link I posted in post to Bav.. just in case you missed it...

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25091772/agents-take-how-uncle-sam-could-decide-where-ndamukong-suh-plays

[Dustin]

Hold up. Your position is that their base 4-3 front left both A gaps and a B gap uncovered?

My position is that Wilfork is a 3-tech.

[IndyD4U]

All of the latest reports that I see have the Colts not in the running. Now how valid these reports are, I don't know. Realistically, I never expected us to make a push, but the thought of it is fun.

Perhaps Grigson pulls one out of know where here. The anticipation is building!

[NewEra]

I'd rather have a Wilfork, Ngata or Nighton, Ngata combo over Suh. That's me persoanlly and I would actually love to have Suh. I don't think he should be getting more than Watt.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Here ya go.. hopefully it's accurate, Same link I posted in post to Bav.. just in case you missed it...

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25091772/agents-take-how-uncle-sam-could-decide-where-ndamukong-suh-plays

 

How taxes impact Suh's deal Team State State Income Tax Rate $55M First 3 Years After Taxes $102M Over 6 Years After Taxes Dolphins Florida None $31,800,000 $58,990,000 Jaguars Florida None $31,800,000 $58,990,000 Seahawks Washington None $31,730,000 $58,860,000 Colts Indiana 3.3% $29,980,000 $55,640,000 Falcons Georgia 6% $29,680,000 $55,090,000 Lions Michigan 4.25% $29,405,000 $54,550,000 Raiders California 13.3% $27,245,000 $51,110,000

 

 

Thanks for that its very interesting & IMO a big advantage for teams in the none category . Good thing is the Colts are not that far from zero ,  It is a issue big time especially for California teams & it makes me wonder why any other team from outside of California would choose to relocate there .

[Kyle]

i want Wilfork and Suh...  ya... how about them apples?

[dw49]

Thanks for that its very interesting & IMO a big advantage for teams in the none category . Good thing is the Colts are not that far from zero ,  It is a issue big time especially for California teams & it makes me wonder why any other team from outside of California would choose to relocate there .

 

I moved to CA 10 years ago and it's getting crazy. Up to 13% state tax , high sales tax , terrible for business owners , gas is higher , hundreds of $'s to register your car if it's nice. It's endless ....

[NewColtsFan]

I moved to CA 10 years ago and it's getting crazy. Up to 13% state tax , high sales tax , terrible for business owners , gas is higher , hundreds of $'s to register your car if it's nice. It's endless ....

 

I tried to "like" your post,  but I'm out of my daily dose....   but as someone who has lived here almost all of my 58 years,  I understand what you're saying and feel your pain!!   

[dw49]

I tried to "like" your post,  but I'm out of my daily dose....   but as someone who has lived here almost all of my 58 years,  I understand what you're saying and feel your pain!!   

 

I'm in orange county. Where are you ?

[Dustin]

Will someone explain 3-technique?

I understand the difference between nose and ends and gap responsibility (I think) but this term is lost on me.

Thanks

 

3-tech lines up on the outside shoulder of the guard and generally is your best pass rushing threat. Attempts to shoot the B-gap (between the guard and tackle) and blow up plays in the backfield.

 

Most of your premier DTs are 3-techs (Suh, Atkins, McCoy, ect...)

[Robin]

I moved to CA 10 years ago and it's getting crazy. Up to 13% state tax , high sales tax , terrible for business owners , gas is higher , hundreds of $'s to register your car if it's nice. It's endless ....

 

I feel bad for you man, here in Denmark we only paying 47% ;)

[ColtsBlueFL]

All of the latest reports that I see have the Colts not in the running. Now how valid these reports are, I don't know. Realistically, I never expected us to make a push, but the thought of it is fun.

Perhaps Grigson pulls one out of know where here. The anticipation is building!

 

I think what you hear is what I am hearing.  The Dolphin talk around here is very confident they will land him.  I then saw this floating around-

 

"Pro Football Talk’s Mike Florio told WQAM’s Joe Rose on Friday that “it’s the Dolphins or Lions” for Suh. “Other teams are just leverage.” "

 

Dophins are holding free agaent DT Jared Odrick in limbo, in case they don't get Suh.  But if they do, the Colts are in the running to talk to Odrick as well.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article12886298.html#storylink=cpy

[NFLfan]

Yep, I have read where Suh to Dolphins is almost a done deal.

This tweet attributed to Charles Robinson:

"Several league sources are talking about Ndamukong Suh to #Dolphins as if it has already happened. DeMarco Murray returning to #Cowboys, too."

It will be a relief not having to face Suh twice a year. The NFC North has already lost Brandon Marshall and may lose Randall Cobb and AP.

[NewColtsFan]

I'm in orange county. Where are you ?

 

I'm near Northridge in the San Fernando Valley.     Depending on where you live, I think we're roughly 1.5 to 2 hours away from one another...

 

I think there's more than a dozen Colts fans in So. Cal....

[Tracy Denton]

Yep, I have read where Suh to Dolphins is almost a done deal.

This tweet attributed to Charles Robinson:

"Several league sources are talking about Ndamukong Suh to #Dolphins as if it has already happened. DeMarco Murray returning to #Cowboys, too."

It will be a relief not having to face Suh twice a year. The NFC North has already lost Brandon Marshall and may lose Randall Cobb and AP.

Suh to Dolphins...I get it, but wouldnt that be tampering ? or is it that the Fhins were just saying they want him before the negotiating period started ?

[dw49]

I feel bad for you man, here in Denmark we only paying 47% ;)

 

 

Federal , state and all the hidden taxes can easily be around 55% if you're high income here.

[dw49]

I'm near Northridge in the San Fernando Valley.     Depending on where you live, I think we're roughly 1.5 to 2 hours away from one another...

 

I think there's more than a dozen Colts fans in So. Cal....

 

I'm in Huntington Beach

[NewColtsFan]

I'm in Huntington Beach

 

Yikes.....   you're a straight shot down the 405....      we might as well be in different states!

 

But,  it's beautiful down there....   I'm glad you've found your own little slice of paradise....    even if it's very expensive paradise.

[dw49]

Yikes.....   you're a straight shot down the 405....      we might as well be in different states!

 

But,  it's beautiful down there....   I'm glad you've found your own little slice of paradise....    even if it's very expensive paradise.

 

 

No question .. it is nice