Grigson's Combine comments

[TKnight24]

Not to mention the "Monster's" mantra was run the ball and stop the run.

Preach!

[jskinnz]

Not saying Shipley was an all star but the timing of the benching was the problem. Harrison wasn't better than Shipley & Shipley wasn't doing bad before the benching so it didn't make sense is all I'm saying

 

It has been established that you don't watch the games so how is it you know how well Shipley was or was not doing?  Secondly, Shipley is a nice roster guy who can play multiple positions but he is limited in his ability.  You know what he is and know that you can do better.  Now try to follow along here - Harrison's ceiling is higher.  So give him a shot thinking he will be better in December than October.  

[21isSuperman]

It didn't come across as a realization to me. Grigson and Pagano have been talking about building a physical team, being able to run the ball and stop the run, etc., since the minute either of them were introduced in 2012. So much so that people started to get tired of them in 2013, with much of the Colts blogosphere accusing them of having an antiquated viewpoint on how football games are won.

 

What it seemed like to me is that his viewpoint has been further reinforced, he's even more convinced now. One of the things he said was that any thinking that you can get by doing it another way is probably flawed. You have to be good up front in December and January. We got beat up front in the playoffs, then watched two really good, really physical teams battle in the Super Bowl. It's like, there's no other way to do it, we HAVE to get better up front, and we HAVE to do it now. 

 

That was my takeaway. Not so much a light bulb moment, but more of a reinforcement. 

Ah, I see.  That makes more sense.  Thanks for clarifying

[Superman]

Not saying Shipley was an all star but the timing of the benching was the problem. Harrison wasn't better than Shipley & Shipley wasn't doing bad before the benching so it didn't make sense is all I'm saying

Football 101: Build an outstanding offensive line around players like A.Q. Shipley.

[TKnight24]

It has been established that you don't watch the games so how is it you know how well Shipley was or was not doing? Secondly, Shipley is a nice roster guy who can play multiple positions but he is limited in his ability. You know what he is and know that you can do better. Now try to follow along here - Harrison's ceiling is higher. So give him a shot thinking he will be better in December than October.

I actually watched every game this season except one due to family emergency so please dismiss yourself and come back when you have the correct facts sir

[NewColtsFan]

Football 101: Build an outstanding offensive line around players like A.Q. Shipley.

 

OK....   Is this what you intended to write?    I confess you lost me here...

 

You've been explaining Shipley's limitations and suddenly you do a 180 and write this?

 

What point are you making that I'm completely missing?

[Superman]

OK.... Is this what you intended to write? I confess you lost me here...

You've been explaining Shipley's limitations and suddenly you do a 180 and write this?

What point are you making that I'm completely missing?

Sorry it wasn't more clear.

[NewColtsFan]

Sorry it wasn't more clear.

 

I confess that without an emoticon or a picture like you inserted here,  my sarcasm-detector is really quite poor!

 

Sorry about that!     My bad!    

[jskinnz]

I actually watched every game this season except one due to family emergency so please dismiss yourself and come back when you have the correct facts sir

 

Apologies.  How about this - when you were watching all the games, how is it you failed to comprehend what you were watching?  

[crazycolt1]

It's year 3 & they're JUST NOW learning you have to win in the trenches!

How does a former offensive linemen & former Defensive Coordinator NOT know this?

Irsay had to have been on something when these hires we made

It took 3 years & 4 whoopings by the to figure this out?

That doesn't concern you at least one bit?

You sure have a hard time understanding things.

[NewColtsFan]

"Learned the hard way about how important it is to be physical in the trenches"

Now, either that's what he said or Superman typed that wrong

There's no way a former offensive lineman should not know this from day 1

 

TK....

 

I think Superman said it best.....   you're being overly literal of his comment.

 

He's only re-inforcing what he's been saying from Day One.    You can't underestimate how important it is to have a great o-line.

 

It's everything to success.    I don't think he worded it particularly well...   but I knew what he was saying.

 

It was on full display in front of him.   New England's o-line dominated our d-line.   And then NE's o-line handled Seattle's d-line.

 

It was there for the whole world to see,  including Grigson.

 

This was not Grigson slapping himself in the head and saying......   "NOW I get it!!"

 

I think it was two years ago when Grigson said he wanted to build the best o-line in football.    The man knows what is important.

 

Our lack of success in building it should only tell you just how hard it is to do so.

[TKnight24]

Apologies. How about this - when you were watching all the games, how is it you failed to comprehend what you were watching?

I comprehend the whoopings we took against Denver in week 1, New England, & Pit

Also comprehend struggling against a subpar Jags team at the oil drum

Also comprehend Shipley making great calls/adjustments for the protection and blocking at the line

Comprehend Ayers of the Giants making Lance Louis look terrible

Comprehend the slow starts this team has week in & week out

Comprehend that without Andrew Luck this team is a 5 to 8 win team if even that

Comprehend the coaches for some odd reason keeping Reggie Wayne on the field even when he's basically invisible out there

Missing anything?

[TKnight24]

TK....

I think Superman said it best..... you're being overly literal of his comment.

He's only re-inforcing what he's been saying from Day One. You can't underestimate how important it is to have a great o-line.

It's everything to success. I don't think he worded it particularly well... but I knew what he was saying.

It was on full display in front of him. New England's o-line dominated our d-line. And then NE's o-line handled Seattle's d-line.

It was there for the whole world to see, including Grigson.

This was not Grigson slapping himself in the head and saying...... "NOW I get it!!"

I think it was two years ago when Grigson said he wanted to build the best o-line in football. The man knows what is important.

Our lack of success in building it should only tell you just how hard it is to do so.

Not saying it's an easy task to do, but the effort could be better. Should've never taken that long to bench Harrison. The coaches are just stubborn! This is why the Colts are nothing more than slightly above average. They don't make adjustments often and when they do it's basically too late or they were forced to do it

It shows against top teams. Steelers ran us out the stadium with that bunch formation, Manusky changed nothing. Pep's offense stalls, changes nothing just keeps forcing it until it works or we lose, whichever happens first

It just doesn't add up how most of the time when the Colts lose, it's by blowout.

[Colts_Fan12]

Grigson and Pagano had pressers today. Nothing of real consequence, IMO, but two things Grigson said stuck out to me. These are very loose paraphrases, from memory, so bear with me.

1) He said that they have learned the hard way about how important it is to be physical in the trenches. That probably seems obvious, but he seemed sort of enlightened, as if he and the staff have been further convinced about the need to get better up front, on both sides of the ball. He said that watching the Super Bowl and 'seeing how elite teams do it' really impressed this need upon him further.

2) Then he said that they are willing and ready to 'shake things up' a bit moving forward, with the draft and free agency. Kind of suggested that they'd be a little more willing to do certain things and explore certain avenues.

Taking those two comments and putting them together, it gave me the impression that the staff understands how critical this offseason is. For all the talk about how they've taken a significant step forward each year, it doesn't seem like they think that's an automatic thing. It seems like they know that there's a lot of work to be done to get to the next level, and they aren't content to just sit back and see what happens. Both Grigson and Pagano made specific comments about getting better in free agency.

I could be reaching, but it seems like this offseason might bring a little more aggressiveness in personnel acquisition, maybe a true playmaker in free agency.

I hope your right a playmaker to help out Vontae and Mathis would be amazing and then hopefully strike gold in the first round it would do wonders for or D

[jvan1973]

I comprehend the whoopings we took against Denver in week 1, New England, & Pit

Also comprehend struggling against a subpar Jags team at the oil drum

Also comprehend Shipley making great calls/adjustments for the protection and blocking at the line

Comprehend Ayers of the Giants making Lance Louis look terrible

Comprehend the slow starts this team has week in & week out

Comprehend that without Andrew Luck this team is a 5 to 8 win team if even that

Comprehend the coaches for some odd reason keeping Reggie Wayne on the field even when he's basically invisible out there

Missing anything?

I don't think you know what comprehend means

[Track Guy]

This team absolutely needs to get better in the trenches. If we can become formidable at running the football against good teams and retain our young wr/te talent - with Luck at QB - the offense will be unbelievable. And on defense, getting better would mean maybe really having a true playoff caliber defense rather than a defense that can dominate the Bengals but give up 40 to 60 points every time against New England.

[NewColtsFan]

I comprehend the whoopings we took against Denver in week 1, New England, & Pit

Also comprehend struggling against a subpar Jags team at the oil drum

Also comprehend Shipley making great calls/adjustments for the protection and blocking at the line

Comprehend Ayers of the Giants making Lance Louis look terrible

Comprehend the slow starts this team has week in & week out

Comprehend that without Andrew Luck this team is a 5 to 8 win team if even that

Comprehend the coaches for some odd reason keeping Reggie Wayne on the field even when he's basically invisible out there

Missing anything?

 

 

Of course we'd be a 5-8 win team without Luck.

 

We'd be playing with only 10 guys on offense and no QB.    Tough to score under those circumstances.     

[Superman]

Apologies. How about this - when you were watching all the games, how is it you failed to comprehend what you were watching?

Against logic, there is no armor like ignorance.

[crazycolt1]

I comprehend the whoopings we took against Denver in week 1, New England, & Pit

Also comprehend struggling against a subpar Jags team at the oil drum

Also comprehend Shipley making great calls/adjustments for the protection and blocking at the line

Comprehend Ayers of the Giants making Lance Louis look terrible

Comprehend the slow starts this team has week in & week out

Comprehend that without Andrew Luck this team is a 5 to 8 win team if even that

Comprehend the coaches for some odd reason keeping Reggie Wayne on the field even when he's basically invisible out there

Missing anything?

How about the boat? You missed it entirely.

[Chucklez]

There's only so much money he can spend.

 

He has to leave room for the Draft Class of '12 + Castanzo.     That alone caps off just how far we can go....

^ This.

I'm all for getting a FA or two if we can afford them, but for the love of God, sign our core players who made our offense the #1 offense in the league last year before we use all our cap space on FAs.

 

[AntonMcG]

Posted by TKnight24 20 August 2012 - 10:06 PM

I'm on neither side. I don't know anything about the O-Line, so I stay out of the Topic to avoid making a fool of myself. But I just like messing with Gavin when he states his opinions on the O-Line. They're usually entertaining lol

 

This is so much fun.

[CoachLite]

This team absolutely needs to get better in the trenches. If we can become formidable at running the football against good teams and retain our young wr/te talent - with Luck at QB - the offense will be unbelievable. And on defense, getting better would mean maybe really having a true playoff caliber defense rather than a defense that can dominate the Bengals but give up 40 to 60 points every time against New England.

Getting better doesn't necessarily mean playing harder, it means playing better and playing smarter - individually and working together. This means better upper-body and footwork techniques, shedding blocks, knowing your competitions patterns, strengths and weaknesses - and overcoming. Blindly playing harder gets you injured. We see where that got us. This is both on the players and the coaches.

[theanarchist]

I'm guessing Grigson goes all in in FA and spends SIZABLE amount of money.

Im not convinced of that. And IMO that's one way to put yourself into a bind with the salary cap. Veteran FA are 3 to 5 times more expensive than rookies so your return on investment isn't usually as good. Have to be careful with throwing money around if we want to keep, Luck, Fleener, Allen, Hilton etc

[theanarchist]

It's year 3 & they're JUST NOW learning you have to win in the trenches!

How does a former offensive linemen & former Defensive Coordinator NOT know this?

Irsay had to have been on something when these hires we made

It took 3 years & 4 whoopings by the to figure this out?

That doesn't concern you at least one bit?

Did you have someone else in mind as head coach and GM when they were hired?

[theanarchist]

I comprehend the whoopings we took against Denver in week 1, New England, & Pit

Also comprehend struggling against a subpar Jags team at the oil drum

Also comprehend Shipley making great calls/adjustments for the protection and blocking at the line

Comprehend Ayers of the Giants making Lance Louis look terrible

Comprehend the slow starts this team has week in & week out

Comprehend that without Andrew Luck this team is a 5 to 8 win team if even that

Comprehend the coaches for some odd reason keeping Reggie Wayne on the field even when he's basically invisible out there

Missing anything?

Not criticizing you just pointing out that I think most teams with a franchise QB are 5-8 win teams when that QB isn't on the field. Is Denver a 12 win team without Manning? Is Seattle a 12 win team without Wilson? Is Baltimore a 10 win team without Flacco? I think you get my point.

 

As for Wayne, He was doing OK before he had the injury. I don't know that you could make the case that we had another receiver on the roster that, even after Reggie got hurt, would have brought more potential to the table than him. He's a great teammate and future Hall of Famer and I don't know too many of those types of players that get benched even if they are hurting and their production falls.

[Cynjin]

And it's funny cause mod 21isSuperman said basically what I said yet you say I'm the only one interpreting it that way

Interesting.......

21isSuperman qualified it with based on Superman's paraphrase, then Superman clarified his first post further before you ever posted. Superman even tried to reinforce his clarification with you, but you seem to be incapable of accepting this, interesting..........

[Narcosys]

For the first time in disappointed in Grigson. If he is just now realizing how important the lines are in winning a championship or even games, it's a sad c statement from him, especially since he played the position. That's all I've ever said, you can't run without an oline. It doesn't matter who is back there if you don't have a line.

If this is the case, what was his philosophy before this?

[theanarchist]

For the first time in disappointed in Grigson. If he is just now realizing how important the lines are in winning a championship or even games, it's a sad c statement from him, especially since he played the position. That's all I've ever said, you can't run without an oline. It doesn't matter who is back there if you don't have a line.

If this is the case, what was his philosophy before this?

I think the statement was that they realize they have to be more physical up front. To me that means something a little different than just saying they need to get better up front.

[TKnight24]

Not criticizing you just pointing out that I think most teams with a franchise QB are 5-8 win teams when that QB isn't on the field. Is Denver a 12 win team without Manning? Is Seattle a 12 win team without Wilson? Is Baltimore a 10 win team without Flacco? I think you get my point.

As for Wayne, He was doing OK before he had the injury. I don't know that you could make the case that we had another receiver on the roster that, even after Reggie got hurt, would have brought more potential to the table than him. He's a great teammate and future Hall of Famer and I don't know too many of those types of players that get benched even if they are hurting and their production falls.

Regular season Flacco isn't that good now playoff Flacco is a gawd! Lol

Ravens defense wins games for them, I'm sure Taylor could lead them to a good record

Broncos, we'll see sooner than later with the sheriff considering retirement

Seahawks, with beast mode & that defense, arguably they could do well without Wilson. Wilson just adds that wildcard due to his extending the play ability

[Narcosys]

I think the statement was that they realize they have to be more physical up front. To me that means something a little different than just saying they need to get better up front.

Ya, they are just now realizing it?

[theanarchist]

Ya, they are just now realizing it?

No, I think if you read it closer it says "they are more convinced than ever" that to win in the playoffs we have to get more physical up front on both sides of the ball.  That doesn't mean they are just now realizing it.

[Narcosys]

No, I think if you read it closer it says "they are more convinced than ever" that to win in the playoffs we have to get more physical up front on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean they are just now realizing it.

Well then that goes without saying. If that was their conviction before, he failed at it.

[theanarchist]

Well then that goes without saying. If that was their conviction before, he failed at it.

I agree. I think in looking at the OL there has been an attempt from Grigson to get more physical but it hasn't panned out. Look at the additions of Thomas(2 games and 2 season ending injuries). Thornton has struggled mostly. Cherilus was brought in as a big strong RT and has had his moments but was injured most of the season. I think that finally Holmes was able to get on the field and string some games together and showed some promise. Mewhort looked good for a rookie. So, he's had some failures with certain players. I don't think that its a case where he hasn't tried.

 

On the defensive side of things he has brought in some players that have under performed to a degree. Losing Art Jones for several games this year hurt but I think that Jackson was an attempt to bring in a bigger ILB presence and I don't think that has panned out. Freeman is not what I consider to be a tough run stopper. He's a good tackler and a good cover LB but between that tackles he gets swallowed up. There is not a lot of depth at DT and NT. Again, not for lack of trying but the personnel has to get better.

[ProblChld32]

Sounds like they are going to be making a Splash in FA, Suh possibly? Lupati?

[Track Guy]

Not criticizing you just pointing out that I think most teams with a franchise QB are 5-8 win teams when that QB isn't on the field. Is Denver a 12 win team without Manning? Is Seattle a 12 win team without Wilson? Is Baltimore a 10 win team without Flacco? I think you get my point.

They'd all be worse but to be fair, Indy probably does have an even bigger drop off in win total of you get rid of the QB than those 3 teams (and I'd go so far to say quite possibly a bigger drop in wins than any team in the league). Especially Seattle, who could still be above .500 imo if they had a replacement level QB. 

[AntonMcG]

Let me try to qualify the Grigson's statement in an attempt to get through to those who lack the common sense to think that getting good in the trenches has been an afterthought until now...

 

The NFL's makeup does not allow for a team to be elite everywhere. Some things need to be prioritized over others, and different teams use different methods in the endless attempt to gain the upper hand.

 

Grigson has made it clear from day one that they need to compete in the trenches, and he has demonstrated several examples of that commitment... drafting multiple linemen in early rounds, the big money signings of Gosder Cherilus and Art Jones etc.

 

This was not a eureka moment for Grigson and his staff (as some of you closet GMs, who have had all the answers all along, seem to believe), it was an acknowledgement that even greater priority needs to be placed in the trenches, probably at the expense of other areas of the team.

 

We have quite a few needs on this team, and those holes need to be filled to give us balance. However, I expect, from these comments, that the trenches will be prioritised above all others. Whether that is through taking O-Lineman or D-Lineman in the first round, or investing significant cap space in one or two in free agency, expect changes up front.

[Cynjin]

Let me try to qualify the Grigson's statement in an attempt to get through to those who lack the common sense to think that getting good in the trenches has been an afterthought until now...

 

The NFL's makeup does not allow for a team to be elite everywhere. Some things need to be prioritized over others, and different teams use different methods in the endless attempt to gain the upper hand.

 

Grigson has made it clear from day one that they need to compete in the trenches, and he has demonstrated several examples of that commitment... drafting multiple linemen in early rounds, the big money signings of Gosder Cherilus and Art Jones etc.

 

This was not a eureka moment for Grigson and his staff (as some of you closet GMs, who have had all the answers all along, seem to believe), it was an acknowledgement that even greater priority needs to be placed in the trenches, probably at the expense of other areas of the team.

 

We have quite a few needs on this team, and those holes need to be filled to give us balance. However, I expect, from these comments, that the trenches will be prioritised above all others. Whether that is through taking O-Lineman or D-Lineman in the first round, or investing significant cap space in one or two in free agency, expect changes up front.

Excellent summation, however I am afraid your attempt to get through to certain posters will be futile.

[Superman]

This was not a eureka moment for Grigson and his staff (as some of you closet GMs, who have had all the answers all along, seem to believe), it was an acknowledgement that even greater priority needs to be placed in the trenches, probably at the expense of other areas of the team.

 

Great work.

[Luck_Is_Skilled]

McGlynn, Satele, Cherilus, Thomas, Thornton, Holmes, Mewhort , Louis and Phil friggin Costa

 

Redding, McKinney, Chapman, RJF, Franklin, Hughes, Jones

 

With the exception of Costa, all of these players have given the Colts significant snaps. To say that Grigs hasnt addresed the trenches is laughable.

I didnt even mention that he brought back Moala, Linkenbach, Reitz or Shipley. Or how Harrison and Kerr had decent moments or any of the Linebacker moves he's made. He even burned a first on a running back who EVERYONE thought was a stud in the 2012 draft.

 

I believe that if there is anything that he's learned the "hard way" its that you have to be a little more aggressive in the level of talent that you pursue. In some cases, its about health and availability. That is beyond his control. He's said in the past that he wasn't big on going after "names", maybe this is the year that we get one or even 2 of those "names". Most of the deals Grigs have made have been cap friendly. "Big Name" FA's usually dont sign cap friendly deals though.

 

I just have a hard time with all the Grigs bashing. It makes no sense to me. 

[Superman]

McGlynn, Satele, Cherilus, Thomas, Thornton, Holmes, Mewhort , Louis and Phil friggin Costa

 

Redding, McKinney, Chapman, RJF, Franklin, Hughes, Jones

 

With the exception of Costa, all of these players have given the Colts significant snaps. To say that Grigs hasnt addresed the trenches is laughable.

I didnt even mention that he brought back Moala, Linkenbach, Reitz or Shipley. Or how Harrison and Kerr had decent moments or any of the Linebacker moves he's made. He even burned a first on a running back who EVERYONE thought was a stud in the 2012 draft.

 

I believe that if there is anything that he's learned the "hard way" its that you have to be a little more aggressive in the level of talent that you pursue. In some cases, its about health and availability. That is beyond his control. He's said in the past that he wasn't big on going after "names", maybe this is the year that we get one or even 2 of those "names". Most of the deals Grigs have made have been cap friendly. "Big Name" FA's usually dont sign cap friendly deals though.

 

I just have a hard time with all the Grigs bashing. It makes no sense to me. 

 

There's still a balance to be aimed for. That's probably the internal struggle Grigson has been dealing with, and maybe having the discussions with the rest of the staff as well.

 

Spending money on hot free agents isn't a silver bullet. I picked up on the 'more aggressive acquisitions' angle also, but we've seen tons of teams spend money on offensive linemen, and still have poor line play. Almost all of them, as a matter of fact. Almost invariably, the best offensive lines are homegrown, and a large percentage of teams with good line play are using players drafted in mid to late rounds. Almost invariably, it took time -- several seasons -- to achieve a consistently high level of line play.

 

So Grigson has to balance between developing the guys you have -- and the best way to do that is to put them on the field -- and upgrading with new talent and high draft picks. I'm sure part of him just wants to grab a vet in free agency to be a starter, but he also knows that there's no guarantee that said starter will actually upgrade the line (Cherilus, Thomas, and a host of other notable free agent linemen in recent years, including Andy Levitre, who was a huge favorite around here a couple years ago). 

 

It's not an exact science, despite the insistence of some here. "Why hasn't Grigson fixed the line, it's been three years!" Because it's really, really hard to build a good offensive line.