Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

Patriots investigation (merge)


Recommended Posts

Florio now in on the latest story http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/19/patriots-alerted-nfl-to-issue-with-special-teams-ball/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

 

Scott Miller, per the source, is the employee who was fired.  It’s unclear whether the termination arose solely from the incident during the AFC title game, or whether investigation by the league unearthed other evidence of Miller removing footballs from play and selling them on the side.  Predictably, the league declined PFT’s request for comment on Miller’s termination or the reasons for it.

So what does all of this mean?  As it relates to the question of whether footballs intentionally were deflated by the Patriots, nothing.  As it relates to whether the NFL will be able to generate sufficient proof of tampering, plenty.

As we gradually learn more about the manner in which footballs are handled, it’s becoming more clear that the NFL doesn’t secure footballs in the kind of way that would allow a presumptive finding that deflated footballs necessarily means a team employee intentionally deflated them.  Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.

Absent a confession or other smoking-gun evidence of tampering, the challenge for the NFL will be explaining this in a way that seems at least plausible to those inclined to believe the league office will simply brush the entire matter under the rug.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 722
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

There is no precedent, it's still crazy to me this is the first time the possibility ever came up in the history of the game knowing how many bad weather games are played each year. That being said, you would think if the Patriots were found to have done that, something has to be done to make the Colts "whole" despite the lopsided score. Grigson just said at his presser that they alerted the league BEFORE the game, maybe the league was just like "whatever" and didn't log the psi but then the interception kind of forced them to look at it at the half. Pagano said the idea the colts deflated one of the balls is "ludicrous".

 

I guess the complicated part with that would be other teams saying, "Well how about us?" Obviously the Ravens would be in the right to say that (if the Colts were somehow compensated). Plus it's not really fair to the other 30 teams to award one team extra picks or anything. They wouldn't have done anything wrong in that scenario and would be at a disadvantage by virtue of another team's compensation.

 

Interesting that Grigson and Pagano are being asked those questions... were they Boston reporters? LOL...  haha

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mod Note: 

Stop with the personal attacks

There are several here who could have warnings but letting it go this time. You know who you are.

 

Furthermore stop with the "why are you here" comments. Everyone is welcome here within the rules. Period.

 

If you can't reply to a post in a civil debating way then don't reply.  If you don't like someone skip over the post. It's not that hard.

 

Quoted for emphasis. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Florio now in on the latest story http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/19/patriots-alerted-nfl-to-issue-with-special-teams-ball/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

 

Scott Miller, per the source, is the employee who was fired.  It’s unclear whether the termination arose solely from the incident during the AFC title game, or whether investigation by the league unearthed other evidence of Miller removing footballs from play and selling them on the side.  Predictably, the league declined PFT’s request for comment on Miller’s termination or the reasons for it.

So what does all of this mean?  As it relates to the question of whether footballs intentionally were deflated by the Patriots, nothing.  As it relates to whether the NFL will be able to generate sufficient proof of tampering, plenty.

As we gradually learn more about the manner in which footballs are handled, it’s becoming more clear that the NFL doesn’t secure footballs in the kind of way that would allow a presumptive finding that deflated footballs necessarily means a team employee intentionally deflated them.  Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.

Absent a confession or other smoking-gun evidence of tampering, the challenge for the NFL will be explaining this in a way that seems at least plausible to those inclined to believe the league office will simply brush the entire matter under the rug.

To the bolded - that is they key point in this whole thing. It is almost impossible to prove tampering without someone confessing or video evidence. On top of that you add in the way the balls are handled and this rogue official and Florio is right. This will most likely be nothing in the end.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess the complicated part with that would be other teams saying, "Well how about us?" Obviously the Ravens would be in the right to say that (if the Colts were somehow compensated). Plus it's not really fair to the other 30 teams to award one team extra picks or anything. They wouldn't have done anything wrong in that scenario and would be at a disadvantage by virtue of another team's compensation.

 

Interesting that Grigson and Pagano are being asked those questions... were they Boston reporters? LOL...  haha

I know there are 30 other teams but the fact of the matter is it relates to the AFCCG against the Colts, that pick would still be a pick other teams wouldn't have anyway. Nothing is being investigated in the Ravens game so they wouldn't be in the right. Don't know who the reporters are since several are in town for the combine but even if it were Indy or Boston reporters, people want to know what's going on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there are 30 other teams but the fact of the matter is it relates to the AFCCG against the Colts, that pick would still be a pick other teams wouldn't have anyway. Nothing is being investigated in the Ravens game so they wouldn't be in the right. Don't know who the reporters are since several are in town for the combine but even if it were Indy or Boston reporters, people want to know what's going on.

The Pats camera man in 2007 was caught during the Jets game and the Jets never received anything from the Pats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Pats camera man in 2007 was caught during the Jets game and the Jets never received anything from the Pats.

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

Ball tampering has happened before. The Vikings did it just this year warming the balls on the sideline. I don't think it is that type of violation that would cost draft picks and certainly not one that would be given to another team.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we all get away from one aspect of these discussions? 

 

If draft picks are taken away from an NFL team as part of a penalty/punishment, they are never "awarded" to another team. Even if the Patriots are found 100% guilty, the Colts will not just be given what would have been NE's first rounder (or any other pick).  

 

At least there is no precedent for it. Teams have "traded" picks with other teams to sign coaches who were under contract or whatnot, but that's a different situation. 

 Actually there is precident for one teams draft picks being awarded to another -  usually it involves some type of player tampering .

 

If either team is ultimately found to have tampered with a football ... my guess is though highly doubtful -the league might  take the drastic step of exchanging picks .

 

At this point though I'm pretty sure we all know this will likely end without any conclusive findings ...just too muddled .

Link to post
Share on other sites

This part of Florio's article is interesting:

 

 

In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.

 

In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.

 

If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This part of Florio's article is interesting:

 

 

In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.

 

In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.

 

If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?

 

What has happened is Kraft has gone on the offensive here. He is hanging the league out to dry on this one ... big time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?

 

 

If this is true, why wasn't it brought up by BB or BK in their respective press conferences? Seems that bringing up this would have immediately helped their case...so why not bring it up? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This part of Florio's article is interesting:

In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play. After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped. So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.

In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.

If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?

20k, 25k.. you're cherry picking. The point is the fine is defined in the rulebook and there were 2 other cases this year alone for ball tampering, and I'm pretty sure they just got told to stop doing it.

So this idea that the Pats would lose an insanely valuable 1st round pick over this is so far out of left field it's comical

Link to post
Share on other sites

What has happened is Kraft has gone on the offensive here. He is hanging the league out to dry on this one ... big time.

 

Again - from his perspective, he probably saw a long time good employee in McNally getting his life turned upside down for a day and a half because of the irresponsible reporting by Kelly Naqi. So I'm sure he felt he had no choice but to put this story out there to Schefter in order to protect that guy...and good for him for doing that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again - from his perspective, he probably saw a long time good employee in McNally getting his life turned upside down for a day and a half because of the irresponsible reporting by Kelly Naqi. So I'm sure he felt he had no choice but to put this story out there to Schefter in order to protect that guy...and good for him for doing that.

Yes the turn around was like lightning less than 24 hours. OTL was in the middle of their report when Schefty broke in with his news. Kraft is not playing around on this one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes the turn around was like lightning less than 24 hours. OTL was in the middle of their report when Schefty broke in with his news. Kraft is not playing around on this one.

 

And again - I have to applaud the guy in this case. McNally would have had to go into hiding if that ridiculous story had been allowed to stand for several days. I'm sure he's willing to keep quiet about sensitive matters (someone DID lose their job after all), but you have to protect your own. What an ugly mess this is. Is there any doubt left that somebody/bodies have a SERIOUS agenda to slander this team by any means they can find, and ESPN seems to be a more than willing accomplice to this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If this is true, why wasn't it brought up by BB or BK in their respective press conferences? Seems that bringing up this would have immediately helped their case...so why not bring it up? 

Is it possible they weren't aware of any of this? It sounds like this Scott Miller guy was just recently fired, and I'm certain the Pats wouldn't have had any idea who this guy was to begin with, let alone be aware of the fact that he had a pattern of stealing game balls. So at the time, it might just have seemed like an irrelevant side note to the story of the game balls being deflated...it was a kicking ball that was misplaced for an extra point, then replaced...end of story.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This part of Florio's article is interesting:

 

 

In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.

 

In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.

 

If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?

 

 

That statement and this below screams a disinformation and maybe even Tomfoolery in the info leakage department.

 

"It’s not unusual for footballs to be removed from play for later sale in support of charitable endeavors.  Typically, however, the teams are informed of the fact that footballs will be removed — especially when the “K” balls will be taken out of service.  If the team is told that a “K” ball will be removed, the equipment staff prepares multiple “K” balls for use in the game during the limited time teams have to get the new, out-of-the-box footballs ready for use."

 

Hogwash!!  So, every game 8 factory fresh K balls are delivered to the Official Referee's hotel room direct from Wilson the evening before the game. They arrive wrapped in tape marked with a “W,” preventing any pre-game tampering. This official guards it and does not allow the boxes to be opened any sooner than the arrival at the game. They are closely guarded and finally opened up 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game and pressurized and marked.

 

"The official hands the K balls off to a designated member of each organization, who is the only person with the opportunity to rub down the football. For the San Diego Chargers, a member of the equipment staff handles the responsibilities and can be spotted on the field wearing a K-vest.

Under the official’s observation, the K ball handler has only 45 minutes to “touch up” the balls by waxing it with a wet towel or a horse-hair brush to make it less slippery."

 

Video of this is in second half of Peter Kings Video here-

 

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-video-how-nfl-officials-check-game-ball-pressure/

 

So here's the    B.  S.   at play quoted above fostered by Florio-

 

Re-quote from above-

 

"In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball."

 

 

But the rules state this protocol is to be followed-

 

 

*Kickoff begins with using ball number one and continues to be in play until it is no longer an option. Once unavailable, ball number two is brought into play and the cycle continues throughout the game.*

 

 

If K1 goes missing for any reason, K2 should be ready to roll.  and the others behind it.  No need to hunt down k1, nor put in a non approved ball.  But it is reported kickers notice when K2 is brought in and thus statements like below are heard-

 

“Once you get the first ball, you just get used to it,” Wick said. “If that ball gets kicked into the stands or if the opposing team gets a turnover and keeps the ball on the sidelines, the kickers are going to want to get that ball back.”

 

This new baloney about Pat's not being warned about K1 being out of service or not having K2 ready (and K3 - K8 too!) is not serving anybody any good.  All these strict rules about the game and K balls before the game and nobody seems to know what the heck is going on out there once those guarded game and K balls get delivered to the sidelines.  It's a sham of finger pointing and coverup.  I hope wells doesn't sweep it under the rug and sugarcoat the final results.  Again, we cannot take what these folks are leaking to heart.  They go against rules and protocols and make everyone look like an extreme doofus.

 

EDIT: Especially how diligently they are with them pre-game.  SMH....

Link to post
Share on other sites

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

This also contradicts Blandino's statement that the NFL did not know about concerns regarding the footballs until the second quarter and makes this look more like a sting operation ...

Link to post
Share on other sites

This also contradicts Blandino's statement that the NFL did not know about concerns regarding the footballs until the second quarter and makes this look more like a sting operation ...

 

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

 

Dunn Dunnn Dunnnnnn!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bad Morty, on 19 Feb 2015 - 8:14 PM, said:snapback.png

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

 

Dunn Dunnn Dunnnnnn!!!

 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you....   ;-)

 

Yet in the same breath I find no pristine aura or halo surrounding the Patriot brand.  Wonder if there is a connection....   : ^ )

Link to post
Share on other sites

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

 

 

There was talk that this all originated with Baltimore. It's possible someone from that organization notified Grigson and he notified the league. In any event , I do think Pagano embellished a bit with that statement. He probably wished he had said that he wasn't concerned with the deflated ball issue. It's obvious that Grigson did go to the league before that game and the Colts just didn't by chance notice the deflated ball. Grigson no doubt told the staff to look for deflated footballs. To think Pagano was left out of this is not believable. But is it a real issue in the investigation ? Hard to say that it is.

 

So what's going on ? Who the heck knows. If I had to guess , I would say that Grigson alerted the NFL the week before as he now says. Crazy for him to lie about that. From the info we are betting from Blandino and put that into perspective with what Grigson said , I come to the conclusion that the league didn't take the complaint seriously or they are just plain *s. Assuming Grigson is not insane (he never alerted the NFL), how else do you explain the officials not charting what the PSI's of the 24 balls were at the pre game time inspection ? I do think it will all make a little more sense when the report comes out. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are so many stories and variations floating around out there.  

 

Take your pick.  If you search enough  you're sure to find a report or story that fits what you think, or what you want to think,  what you know, or what you think you know.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

 

I think thats a slippery slope indeed. If on one incident, the team that was making the complaint was rewarded with something..draft position switch, draft picks..something along that line, the league would go to heck in a hand basket really fast.

 

Every time something happened, whether real or perceived, teams would be clamoring for compensation, and fans would be right behind them. How come we only got their 3rd round pick for this, when team X got a 2nd for that!!

 

It would be a mess.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Thread of the Week

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Unless of Fields  slips to 15 ish (I doubt it) I dont think we are going QB  in round 1 this year.... we are WAY TOO FAR back to trade up Also Lance had ONE year of college ball against 2nd level teams..... He isnt starting on a win now ready team at leaset for 1-2 years
    • Hey man..   I hope that you are right   If he would have had a camp this past year, Eason MIGHT have been ready   My hope is he has someone to compete against or if we bring in a FA that can Play for 3-5 years, he can hold a clipboard and be the next starting QB    
    • It's common knowledge that so far Luck has sucked? I know you can't link a podcast...but do you have any other links that talk about Love sucking? The last time I heard anything to that effect was during TC.   All I have found since that time (regarding Love's development) was an article from October...where Rodgers said Love was doing well...learning and opening up. And then another from a month ago that GB was pleased with his progress.    The narrative about adding GB hurting because they drafted Love should be dead...as they get ready to enter the NFCCG. And with Rodgers playing at an MVP level...it's impossible to know how Love will turn out because we won't see him in a Packer uniform for a couple of years at least.  
    • They are still in first round interview mode. I'd expect that to continue assuming they want to interview guys still in the playoffs. Keep in mind the Texans had to get special approval to interview Bieniemy when they did, because they failed to interview him on the off week. They can't interview him again till they are done (unless they seek a waiver from the NFL again).   Purely my opinion, but I think it's simple to me.   If Watson stays, Bieniemy will be the HC. Anyone other than Bieniemy is a signal that Watson is gone. That assumes though that there are teams willing to mortgage their future...   
    • TO's stats absolutely warranted first ballot... but he had antics on the field (e.g., the Dallas Star incident, spitting in DeAngelo Hall's face) and was also a cry-baby who was often in conflict with the media and front offices of teams he played on, and thought by many to be a subpar teammate (at least for portions of his career).  He also did other things (e.g., the Desparate Housewives skit before MNF, OD on pain meds) which made him unpopular with the media, who are ultimately who vote players into the HOF.   Marvin also deserved to be a 1st ballot HOFer.  Although he got in before TO, I firmly believe Marv's alleged shooting incidents and the allegations of him punching a younger fan at a pro-bowl game were held against him in voting.  I know it's said that the HOF is for what players did on the field, and off field stuff shouldn't come into play -- but it's voted on by people (i.e., sports writers) and there surely is some sort of human element that goes into the vote casting process.     You're right... Reggie will get in, just a matter of when.  While I do think some of Marv's off-field issues hindered him, there were also guys like Andre Reed (who had been eligible for almost a decade) and Tim Brown who were waiting to get into the HOF... both deserving HOFers who got overlooked previous years as guys like Jerry Rice and Cris Carter got in.   While I think the main knock on Reggie will be that he was WR#2 to Marvin for a decent part of his career, and the fact he wasn't all-decade team and only a 1x First-team All Pro (and 2x 2nd team).  That said, he's one of the most prolific WRs in NFL history and has some of the best post-season stats of any WR in NFL history.  Megatron definitely was a physical freak who changed the game, but his career was not long enough to put him in the record books like Reggie (who is top 10 in just about every category and top 5 in several post-season categories).  The only other WR on the ballot is Torry Holt who is a 2x finalist -- Reggie has more all-pro appearances, 1 less probowl than Holt, though Reggie has more yards, TDs and receptions.  They both have 1 SB ring, with Reggie having greater post-season success with individual stats, and Holt was 2nd team 2000s all-decade which Reggie wasn't.  Holt was also 2nd fiddle to Isaac Bruce for a decent part of his career.   Not making any guarantees, but compared to the WR classes when Marv and TO were finalists (including guys like Reed and Tim Brown who had been on the wait-list for a while) as well as studs across the board (e.g., Jerome Bettis, Derrick Brooks, Michael Strahan, Aeneas Williams, Junior Seau, WIll Shields, Favre, Orlando Pace, etc..).... I think this class is pretty weak.  After Peyton and Woodson, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't see any guy in this class who clearly deserves to be a HOFer more than Reggie does.      He has to retired first and if he keeps taking his Benjamin Button diet, that may not happen.
  • Members

    • Douzer

      Douzer 512

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Bert Johns

      Bert Johns 99

      New Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Fourstar40

      Fourstar40 16

      New Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Architects08

      Architects08 227

      Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • MikeCurtis

      MikeCurtis 2,140

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • Sikma

      Sikma 0

      Rookie
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • PeacefulEasonFeeling

      PeacefulEasonFeeling 5

      Rookie
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • James

      James 347

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • chad72

      chad72 6,561

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
    • EastStreet

      EastStreet 8,681

      Senior Member
      Joined:
      Last active:
×
×
  • Create New...