Patriots investigation (merge)

[dgambill 1,173]

I'm completely sick of hearing about all this. I was over it an hour after I heard. IMO if there is wrong doing...clean it up...fine them or whatever and move on. They were the best team in football and proved it on the field. Granted some of the methods they are using (reportedly) I think could have been less then honest and they would be subject to discipline I just wish people would wait til all the facts are out before making more judgements or releasing unsubstatiated word of mouth.

[jvan1973 5,308]

I agree. Once again the league's failure to understand the media and its role as a conduit to the public and fans has hurt its credibility.

Yeah, the league is really struggling

[dw49 709]

man that was a long article about nothing.  I'm so sick of unnamed sources.

 

 

Yeah.. I agree. That's why I commented "hmmmmm."  I haven't a clue as to what this really proves. But I figured anything coming out of the investigation would be of interest.

[Deano1818 0]

This whole thing is a cluster

The fact is, they would have beaten us by 25 if they played with dinner rolls vs a football

If it was won by a field goal..... Maybe I am more interested...

[Bones_Jones 0]

kickers like over inflated footballs.  maybe he tried to submit 20 psi ball?  aaron rodgers likes it over inflated by the way.    #inflategate

[OffensivelyPC 1,111]

Where is the misconduct? The ball was given and it was unmarked. The ref checked it and never was put it into play. Kicking balls are kicked into the stands all the time so perhaps the attendant was just replacing a lost ball and gave an unmarked one? I would like to know how many balls are on the sideline. Are only the marked balls allowed on the sideline or can teams have more balls in case some need to be replaced because of going into the stands or use?

First off, I said  "[if true], it appears to be misconduct."  Second, I don't really know how you could question that this at least has an aura of misconduct.  The guy gave the official an unmarked football, that's no-no number one.  Just because you get caught before the ball was put into play doesn't mean trying to put an unapproved football is overlooked, especially when you have 12 inspected and marked footballs.  If one of your K balls got put into the stands, use the next one.  They didn't kick enough extra points in the first half to have lost all of their K balls in the stands.  I mean, they kicked 2 extra points and a 20 yard field goal and they did make them all which, at such a close distance would have gone right into the net, so I highly doubt any were lost in the stands.  To me, that's a weak argument to stand on.  Besides, there doesn't seem to be any accusation, much less proof, that they lost any other footballs.  The Colts intercepted the one plus the other 11 have been confiscated for the Wells report.  Whether or not they are allowed to have other unmarked footballs on the sideline is irrelevant.  They still had 11 other footballs to chose from and knew all to well where they would be to get one in - it would take incompetence to unimaginable depths to just misplace all the marked footballs and in haste try to introduce an unmarked ball.  NFL teams do this on a regular basis, and for the Patriots especially - or Belichick rather - who is one of the most meticulous football coaches in the league, isn't going to be caught in the position to use a time out or take a delay of game because he can't find the approved balls.   

 

This isn't one of those things where the ball boy, to speak candidly, doesn't know better.  He has been there for at least a decade, so he can't really argue that he didn't know better.  Just the fact alone that guys such as McNally don't hand officials a football, his 10 years experience, and him handing in an unmarked football just doesn't sit well - it shouldn't anyway. 

[cdgacoltsfan 563]

I don't like him or the coach

He's very "Krafty" .... He and Rog are tight so Im sure the two of them will come to some sort of secret mutually agreed upon arrangement to save both of their ultra egos.

[bababooey 80]

This raises more questions than answers as usual. So now we are off of the offensive balls that Brady and the O uses and are on to the kicking balls. Is it even a violation to hand a ball to a ref that is not approved? I have no idea or if it is common for teams to do. Also what would be the motive to hand over a ball without the refs marking as it would get thrown out? Also, it seems to make no sense to try to insert a deflated kicking ball as the kickers like the balls over inflated so it will travel further.

Not at all, this report also says 11 balls are a pound under, this is just another piece of damning evidence on top of it.

[NewEra 1,273]

cheat-riots

[bababooey 80]

They can possibly be stripped of draft pick.

Win a Superbowl and possibly a bunch of other games to help get you there in return for a draft pick the following year? Sign me up

[Ant Ave 0]

 If it's ultimately determined that the Pats took their footballs into an area and purposedly deflated them to their preferred specs ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A)  Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

[Yehoodi 26]

First off, I said  "[if true], it appears to be misconduct."  Second, I don't really know how you could question that this at least has an aura of misconduct.  The guy gave the official an unmarked football, that's no-no number one.  Just because you get caught before the ball was put into play doesn't mean trying to put an unapproved football is overlooked, especially when you have 12 inspected and marked footballs.  If one of your K balls got put into the stands, use the next one.  They didn't kick enough extra points in the first half to have lost all of their K balls in the stands.  I mean, they kicked 2 extra points and a 20 yard field goal and they did make them all which, at such a close distance would have gone right into the net, so I highly doubt any were lost in the stands.  To me, that's a weak argument to stand on.  Besides, there doesn't seem to be any accusation, much less proof, that they lost any other footballs.  The Colts intercepted the one plus the other 11 have been confiscated for the Wells report.  Whether or not they are allowed to have other unmarked footballs on the sideline is irrelevant.  They still had 11 other footballs to chose from and knew all to well where they would be to get one in - it would take incompetence to unimaginable depths to just misplace all the marked footballs and in haste try to introduce an unmarked ball.  NFL teams do this on a regular basis, and for the Patriots especially - or Belichick rather - who is one of the most meticulous football coaches in the league, isn't going to be caught in the position to use a time out or take a delay of game because he can't find the approved balls.   

 

This isn't one of those things where the ball boy, to speak candidly, doesn't know better.  He has been there for at least a decade, so he can't really argue that he didn't know better.  Just the fact alone that guys such as McNally don't hand officials a football, his 10 years experience, and him handing in an unmarked football just doesn't sit well - it shouldn't anyway. 

 

Do you find it interesting that the ball in question was not tested by the NFL to see if it met the NFL Specs? 

 

Meaning the pats tried to get a out of spec ball into the game via the back door and is was forded by the ref.   If the ball is in spec what is the issue in the grand scheme of things?  Indeed the main issue here is not the inspection but if the pats intentionally played with balls out of spec, either created before (refs don't test properly) or after inspection (pats tampered with balls after inspection or tried to get a ball in the backdoor)

 

And another thing not sure why the ref is not dealing with a ball boy, it is my understanding that this McNally guy is not a ball boy, so why is the ref even dealing with him.   Why would McNally have the game balls when the ball boy is supposed to have them.  Something does not add up here.

 

But most critically, if the ball is within NFL rule book spec, this is really a non issue as the ultimate issue in question is if the pats played with balls intentionally out of spec with the NFL rule book.

 

[btw there are comments in the Kravitz thread and I likely will not be doubling posting anymore as already made my same thoughts in the other thread, but best to have this in its own thread]

[Dustin 89]

 If it's ultimately determined that the Pats took their footballs into an area and purposedly deflated them to their preferred specs ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A)  Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

 

 C

[Ant Ave 0]

If it's ultimately discovered that the COLTS were tipped off that the Pats deflate their footballs and subsequently lowered the PSI of their INT ball ( to show a clearly under-inflated feel ) before turning it in to officials ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A) Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

 

D) All of the above - plus Pats get Colts 1st rounder .

[Dustin 89]

If it's ultimately discovered that the COLTS were tipped off that the Pats deflate their footballs and subsequently lowered the PSI of their INT ball ( to show a clearly under-inflated feel ) before turning it in to officials ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A) Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

 

None of the above, but that's literally one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. 

[dgambill 1,173]

 If it's ultimately determined that the Pats took their footballs into an area and purposedly deflated them to their preferred specs ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A)  Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

If its found out that several balls were under inflated significantly (lb or more) and it was done by someone I say you have to do C. Its about culture....Belicheck and Kraft have let a culture of making it acceptable to flirt and sometimes go over the line of sportsmanship and the leagues laws. Culture is set by management...from what they allow, how they lead, and who they hire. The Saints coaches and GM got a season suspension...I would imagine it might be something similar to this. If this was a first infraction for them perhaps some leeway but I think they got that last time. The way the NFL covered up and destroyed all the evidence from the last issue and the slap on the wrist (which I think could be argued would be worse than what was reported here) I think you have to come down hard. If it comes out they did this...the punishment needs to be severe because it no longer is an isolated incident...now its behavior. Thats it...done with this topic until the evidence is released. 

[Bad Morty 1]

Not at all, this report also says 11 balls are a pound under, this is just another piece of damning evidence on top of it.

uh...you DO get that saying they are a pound under is exonerating, not damning, right? Mortensen had us believing these balls were all 2lbs under, beyond that natural causes would explain. Now we have 2 different reports backing up that the balls were a lb or less under....

[dgambill 1,173]

If it's ultimately discovered that the COLTS were tipped off that the Pats deflate their footballs and subsequently lowered the PSI of their INT ball ( to show a clearly under-inflated feel ) before turning it in to officials ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A) Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

 

D) All of the above - plus Pats get Colts 1st rounder .

If the Colts did that I would say B unless proven the Colts ownership/coaches were involved in it directly. It would be very low down but does not affect the play on the field and would be a first offense.

[Hoosier 3]

If it's ultimately discovered that the COLTS were tipped off that the Pats deflate their footballs and subsequently lowered the PSI of their INT ball ( to show a clearly under-inflated feel ) before turning it in to officials ...

What if the moon was your car and Jupiter was your hair brush?

[Bad Morty 1]

^{Oh no...this story just keeps getting worse for the Pats...it's now being reported that the league is looking into the Pats coin flip protocol. Apparently, they called "heads", and then the coin came up "heads", leading some to speculate the Pats may have somehow altered the air currents at mid-field during the toss.}

[Ant Ave 0]

If its found out that several balls were under inflated significantly (lb or more) and it was done by someone I say you have to do C. Its about culture....Belicheck and Kraft have let a culture of making it acceptable to flirt and sometimes go over the line of sportsmanship and the leagues laws. Culture is set by management...from what they allow, how they lead, and who they hire. The Saints coaches and GM got a season suspension...I would imagine it might be something similar to this. If this was a first infraction for them perhaps some leeway but I think they got that last time. The way the NFL covered up and destroyed all the evidence from the last issue and the slap on the wrist (which I think could be argued would be worse than what was reported here) I think you have to come down hard. If it comes out they did this...the punishment needs to be severe because it no longer is an isolated incident...now its behavior. Thats it...done with this topic until the evidence is released. 

Don't be so naive ...

 

The NFL didnt protect the Pats "last time " ...The NFL protected "The Shield " ( just like it always does ) 

 

   When the Pats turned over ALL their tapes back in 2007 - they also turned over footage of OPPOSING teams video taping the Pats.

Part of the arranged "plea -deal " was a gag order that BB has held strong to ( with the exception of a pre-SB presser where he became annoyed by a media pion's cloying  , ill-informed questions and let down the curtain for a moment  - stating the "secret sideline video taping " was done in front of 80k fans .

   I don't blame COLTS fans ( or any opposing fans ) enjoyment in reveling in the Pats demise ( warranted or not ) ...I'd do the same if it wasn't my team .

 

The over-hyped Spygate era has been put to bed  .

 

THE "How many SB's have the Pats won since S - Gate ? "  CROWD  HAS TO SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP ...PERMANENTLY .

[dgambill 1,173]

uh...you DO get that saying they are a pound under is exonerating, not damning, right? Mortensen had us believing these balls were all 2lbs under, beyond that natural causes would explain. Now we have 2 different reports backing up that the balls were a lb or less under....

Honestly do you think that the balls would deflate by a pound on that night....it wasn't even that cold out it was raining. The balls were only used for a half so perhaps on the field for like an hour or two tops. If the balls were a pound under to me that says they were altered by someone. Thats pretty damning evidence if you ask me. A few ounces maybe...not a pound of pressure...thats significant...especially when you go off the low end. Like many people that have played football its a pretty noticable difference...much much easier to grip. That said I don't think the report comes out for a bit. Probably after the draft imo to give the Pats time to respond.

[ViriLudant 4]

This is ridiculous.

They are just trying to dull the actual cheating down saying he "tried" to just hand someone a K ball. Now trying to pin everything on some fall guy who knew exactly what he was doing.

The NE Cheaters are pathetic.

45-7. Had nothing to do with the balls.

This is just ESPN using unnamed sources for ratings . Sad that people think that this is newsworthy.

[Ant Ave 0]

What if the moon was your car and Jupiter was your hair brush?

 

 That's an EZ one Hooshie

 

 

  MOON + JUPITER                              PATRIOTS   45

 ---------------------------           =           ------------------------   

 CAR  + HAIRBRUSH                           COLTS          7

[Cynjin 1,016]

45-7. Had nothing to do with the balls.

I haven't seen anyone claimed that it did. But feel free to continue to miss the point.

[Bad Morty 1]

Honestly do you think that the balls would deflate by a pound on that night....it wasn't even that cold out it was raining. The balls were only used for a half so perhaps on the field for like an hour or two tops. If the balls were a pound under to me that says they were altered by someone. Thats pretty damning evidence if you ask me. A few ounces maybe...not a pound of pressure...thats significant...especially when you go off the low end. Like many people that have played football its a pretty noticable difference...much much easier to grip. That said I don't think the report comes out for a bit. Probably after the draft imo to give the Pats time to respond.

I think it is utterly preposterous to think that the Pats would stick needles into footballs prior to games after the refs had checked them. I know nothing about the science of air pressure, and I also know nothing about the actual level to which any of these balls were supposedly under inflated (other than that the original reports of 2 pounds under seems to have been exaggerated by AT LEAST a 100% factor). I also don't know for certain that these balls started the game in the range. I DO know that many actual real scientists have said a deflation of up to a pound could absolutely have taken place in those conditions.

[dgambill 1,173]

Don't be so naive ...

 

The NFL didnt protect the Pats "last time " ...The NFL protected "The Shield " ( just like it always does ) 

 

   When the Pats turned over ALL their tapes back in 2007 - they also turned over footage of OPPOSING teams video taping the Pats.

Part of the arranged "plea -deal " was a gag order that BB has held strong to ( with the exception of a pre-SB presser where he became annoyed by a media pion's cloying  , ill-informed questions and let down the curtain for a moment  - stating the "secret sideline video taping " was done in front of 80k fans .

   I don't blame COLTS fans ( or any opposing fans ) enjoyment in reveling in the Pats demise ( warranted or not ) ...I'd do the same if it wasn't my team .

 

The over-hyped Spygate era has been put to bed  .

 

THE "How many SB's have the Pats won since S - Gate ? "  CROWD  HAS TO SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP ...PERMANENTLY .

I don't want to detur the thread....I'm not saying the Pats wouldn't have won those SBs or anything...they did what they did...if it wasn't wrong then they wouldn't have been held accountable....we don't know what was all involved in the tapes because it was destroyed...so I'm not going to speculate. The Pats have that whole thing on them. They have to live with how they won and I know they probably don't care because they DID it...caught...and to say it wasn't illegal is just dumb...you don't get fined and a draft pick suspended for doing what everyone else does supposedly. This is a separate issue and we don't know what happened yet so I won't judge...but there is a history here...and it if it holds to be true it seems some peoples moral clarity in that organization is a bit sckewed. If its not true then those calling them cheats etc owe them an apology. Just because the Pats are working on their second possible scandal in a little more than a decade doesn't mean they haven't had one of if not the best teams during that time. They won the SB fair and square....I'm not trying to take championships away. I would just say the methods they go about doing it wouldn't be the most ethical. What the Pats have done on the field is amazing...a great team...but the lengths that they have gone to (I would even say perhaps unnecessarily) to gain an advantage though isn't something I can praise.

[bababooey 80]

If it's ultimately discovered that the COLTS were tipped off that the Pats deflate their footballs and subsequently lowered the PSI of their INT ball ( to show a clearly under-inflated feel ) before turning it in to officials ...

 

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

 

A) Monetary fine

 

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

 

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

 

D) All of the above - plus Pats get Colts 1st rounder .

Wait so.....if the Patriots are found to have intentionally deflated 11 balls they just lose a pick, but if the Colts are found to have deflated 1 ball they award their 1st round pick to the Patriots? Seems fair.

[bababooey 80]

uh...you DO get that saying they are a pound under is exonerating, not damning, right? Mortensen had us believing these balls were all 2lbs under, beyond that natural causes would explain. Now we have 2 different reports backing up that the balls were a lb or less under....

Being a pound under is not exonerating, if that's the case this would have been wrapped up weeks ago. Anything that far under the minimum is pretty damning evidence. I agree natural causes can explain a pound under but it is by no means exonerating, but you would think that games that have been played in far worse temps than a rainy 50 degree night would have presented this issue before now. And please don't say 2 reports saying a pound "or less", remove "or less" and that is at minimum what you have from two ESPN reports.

 

Edit:

Naqi’s report is more consistent with our report from January 25 regarding Mort’s contention that 11 balls were underinflated by two pounds:  “As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum.  The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI.”

 

Meanwhile, the new report from ESPN ignores the confusing Super Bowl Sunday item from NFL Media insisting that some of the balls were just “a few ticks under” the minimum.  While the report contains inherent inconsistencies and was, as one league official told PFT in it’s aftermath, ultimately “wrong,” ESPN’s latest article apparently attempts to tell a comprehensive story about the controversy.  It’s impossible to do that without at least mentioning the NFL Media report, especially since the NFL owns NFL Media

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/17/new-espn-report-conflicts-prior-claim-of-football-deflation/

 

If anything they were all one pound "or more"....

[ViriLudant 4]

I haven't seen anyone claimed that it did. But feel free to continue to miss the point.

Miss what point? That's theres a ridiculous , pathetic witch hunt over nothing?

Sorry , I didn't miss a thing .

[Colts_Fan12 1,825]

They can possibly be stripped of draft pick.

whoopie who cares this would be their second time caught cheating do something to the cheating coach and prove a damn point not take one little draft pick away they really showed then last time that cheating was ok

[Dustin 89]

Miss what point? That's theres a ridiculous , pathetic witch hunt over nothing?

Sorry , I didn't miss a thing .

 

"Cheating is ok"

 

Patriots fans everybody. 

[bababooey 80]

45-7. Had nothing to do with the balls.

This is just ESPN using unnamed sources for ratings . Sad that people think that this is newsworthy.

Kelly Naqi is the source. You just don't think it's newsworthy because it's evidence against your team but that's none of my business.

[dgambill 1,173]

I think it is utterly preposterous to think that the Pats would stick needles into footballs prior to games after the refs had checked them. I know nothing about the science of air pressure, and I also know nothing about the actual level to which any of these balls were supposedly under inflated (other than that the original reports of 2 pounds under seems to have been exaggerated by AT LEAST a 100% factor). I also don't know for certain that these balls started the game in the range. I DO know that many actual real scientists have said a deflation of up to a pound could absolutely have taken place in those conditions.

I've not seen that anywhere. From game conditions .4 to .5 is the max it would deflate in the conditions. It was only 18-20 degrees cooler outside than at typical room temp. Honestly though all I think will happen is that the rules for handling footballs will be changed and the game balls will remain in officials hands throughout the game.

[radiogirl 174]

Miss what point? That's theres a ridiculous , pathetic witch hunt over nothing?

Sorry , I didn't miss a thing .

It's always a witch hunt when you're the witch.....

[Colts_Fan12 1,825]

If it's ultimately determined that the Pats took their footballs into an area and purposedly deflated them to their preferred specs ...

WHAT SHOULD THE PUNISHMENT BE ?

A) Monetary fine

B) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick

C) Fine / Loss of 1st round pick / Suspensions for Coach and all involved .

C

[Colts_Fan12 1,825]

^{Oh no...this story just keeps getting worse for the Pats...it's now being reported that the league is looking into the Pats coin flip protocol. Apparently, they called "heads", and then the coin came up "heads", leading some to speculate the Pats may have somehow altered the air currents at mid-field during the toss.}

yeah I know crazy how people think the patriots cheated since ya know they have already done it before

[Colts_Fan12 1,825]

I haven't seen anyone claimed that it did. But feel free to continue to miss the point.

well if the game was close its not cheating didnt you know that??

[bababooey 80]

Miss what point? That's theres a ridiculous , pathetic witch hunt over nothing?

Sorry , I didn't miss a thing .

LOL obviously

[Cynjin 1,016]

Miss what point? That's theres a ridiculous , pathetic witch hunt over nothing?

Sorry , I didn't miss a thing .

Oh you in particular miss a lot. It is obvious when you try to act like others think, when they don't, that the score of the AFC championship game had anything to do with the psi of the footballs used. Also, your opinion of the investigation is irrelevant.