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Speculation Thread: What do you think happened at Deflategate? (Merge)

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I will book mark this and we can discuss when the punishment if any is handed down ... again assuming all they have is the footballs.

they weren't magic footballs. The colts balls passed at halftime, the patriots balls failed. Clear deception and tampering inside the pats players and staff. Read what troy aikman has to say about the entire ordeal. Hell, most ex playersand execs are hammering them.. Its been on fox news and cnn. They have to drop the hammer or look like fools again

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My post was about finding the culprit. Not the deflated balls. But if all they have is the footballs and no process, no chain of command, no one responsible then yeah maybe an organization fine or maybe nothing. You have to prove tampering with human hands for any real punishment. That is why they hired the investigative team. There is no way Goodell can say to Kraft I am charging you with tampering and only have the footballs ...

 

There is every way he can do just that.

 

11 footballs can't get from 12.5 to 10.5 without human hands.    It's really that simple.

 

This wasn't the weather.    The Colts' football's all checked out.

 

It could only happen by tampering.     And that's all the NFL needs to drop the hammer.    And they will.    At this point,  nothing is going to happen before the Super Bowl,  but it will afterwards....   but all of America knows the Pats were caught cheating.

 

So,  something is going to happen.   And it's going to be bigger than you expect.    Much bigger.

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You forgot about the "but not limited to" part

she often leaves out details that don't fit her argument

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That article also talked about the backlash that would occur if the Patriots got away with no punishment. I can't speak for Goodell, but if no one in the Pats organization is willing to tell the truth I would think that would make him mad enough to make the punishment worse. If the Patriots did not learn to stop violating rules when the NFL fined the team $250,000, the coach $500,000 and taking a first round draft pick, then maybe the NFL will have to increase the punishment to the point they will stop.

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That article also talked about the backlash that would occur if the Patriots got away with no punishment. I can't speak for Goodell, but if no one in the Pats organization is willing to tell the truth I would think that would make him mad enough to make the punishment worse. If the Patriots did not learn to stop violating rules when the NFL fined the team $250,000, the coach $500,000 and taking a first round draft pick, then maybe the NFL will have to increase the punishment to the point they will stop.

Yup. This has spred well past the sports world and if the NFL doesn't want to look like Pro wrestling they are going to have to prove that the NFL actually does have integrity and is not a scripted fixed organisation

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I didn't say he was infallible just very connected.

Connected to the wrong people giving him bad information.... Doesn't mean much to me.

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If this was already posted I apologize. Here is an article about the Patriots fumble rate. Funny coincidence is that their fumble rate drops dramatically at the same time that the NFL allows teams to have their own set of footballs. As we all know it is easier to grip an under-inflated football.

http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/research/general/224-the-patriots-have-great-ball-security?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter%C2%A0

What a interesting coincidence.

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If this was already posted I apologize. Here is an article about the Patriots fumble rate. Funny coincidence is that their fumble rate drops dramatically at the same time that the NFL allows teams to have their own set of footballs. As we all know it is easier to grip an under-inflated football.

http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/research/general/224-the-patriots-have-great-ball-security?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter%C2%A0

What a interesting coincidence.

they have been able to supply their own balls for awhile. This isn't the first season

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One thing for certain that no one can disagree with - the rich old fart in the background isn't getting a single finger pointed at him and won't. You know exactly who I am talking about. Don't expect to hear a peep from him or about him either. 

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One thing for certain that no one can disagree with - the rich old fart in the background isn't getting a single finger pointed at him and won't. You know exactly who I am talking about. Don't expect to hear a peep from him or about him either.

he released a statement today

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I think that other NFL teams believe the Pats have been doing this for a while...and when they did the 'concealing who's eligible formation trickery" to steal the game from the Ravens, I think the Ravens and Colts decided to call them out.

They've probably been doing this for several years, after Brady hurt his hand. He may have grip issues.

I also heard that Brady was one of the proponents behind changing the rule to allow teams to have their own footballs.

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lol. No it's not. The burden is on the league to prove chain of command and who deflated them. Again, that is why they hired the investigative team. If just footballs, a fine or possibly nothing ...

ever heard of res ipsa loquitor?

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Theyre cheaters, always have been and will continue to be if Goodell decides to tolerate it like he usually does with them. He's buddy buddy with Kraft so I doubt anything comes of it, even though a suspension of the head coach is warranted.

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I think that other NFL teams believe the Pats have been doing this for a while...and when they did the 'concealing who's eligible formation trickery" to steal the game from the Ravens, I think the Ravens and Colts decided to call them out.

They've probably been doing this for several years, after Brady hurt his hand. He may have grip issues.

I also heard that Brady was one of the proponents behind changing the rule to allow teams to have their own footballs.

 

I don't buy into that. You may be correct, and I don't know anymore or less then you, but let me give a different view. Perhaps they did know. But it doesnt do the league in general any good for these teams to drag it out in public. I doubt the other coaches and owners want the distraction around the superbowl. Like it our not, the NFL is an old boys club at the ownership level, while there may be some minor spats they will circle the wagons when needed. I just dont see the wisdom of "creating" the controversy.

 

Its correct that it was Brady, along with Manning that started the movement to allow balls to have done whatever they do. Quick google search and this was one article in case your interested 

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-11-28/sports/0611270475_1_new-football-new-england-quarterback-competition-committee

 

I think the media is calming down...I see the story was moved to the 3rd column on Drudge :)

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I don't buy into that. You may be correct, and I don't know anymore or less then you, but let me give a different view. Perhaps they did know. But it doesnt do the league in general any good for these teams to drag it out in public. I doubt the other coaches and owners want the distraction around the superbowl. Like it our not, the NFL is an old boys club at the ownership level, while there may be some minor spats they will circle the wagons when needed. I just dont see the wisdom of "creating" the controversy.

Its correct that it was Brady, along with Manning that started the movement to allow balls to have done whatever they do. Quick google search and this was one article in case your interested

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-11-28/sports/0611270475_1_new-football-new-england-quarterback-competition-committee

I think the media is calming down...I see the story was moved to the 3rd column on Drudge :)

you can bet it will be a massive topic on media day

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you can bet it will be a massive topic on media day

Unless they are going to interview the equipment manager they  will get the same responses I didnt know anything about it until Monday morning.I am sure they have been instructed as to what to say and unless I am just blind they are not going to fess up, 

Question why has no media questioned the equipment manager? 

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I intend to impose more stringent penalties on both the club and the responsible individual(s).

They don't have that yet.

Sure they do.

The New England Patriots.

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No one can really explain how the balls got deflated.

 

But can anyone explain how the Patriots scored 28 points after they received proper footballs?

 

They only scored 17 points with deflated footballs at half time.

 

Whether or not this is regarded as cheating, I have no clue how they could have played better when they got properly NFL spec footballs. Anyone here care to explain?

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I still will keep the Colts Setup card on the table..

 

After this article, this smells to high heaven of Jim Irsay doing this as a setup:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462315/article/dqwell-jackson-footballs-didnt-change-outcome

 

 

Here are some tidbits from the article:

 

 

This means that the supposed catalyst for this entire investigation that Kravitz reported was a LIE.  Kravitz is buddy buddy with Jim Irsay, and the way they've approached this makes it look like they had this planned all along.

 

Here is Jackson's take on the deflated balls (lol)

 

 

Then the story gets VERY interesting... 

 

 

So the Pats ended up with Colts footballs before half time...

 

Irsay had this planned since they got lambasted back in November..  I'd love it so much if they found camera footage of someone on the Colts swapping out balls or messing with the Patriots balls in some way.  Irsay's hate of the Patriots is well known and hes already proven to be someone of questionable character, so I think with this plot twist speculating that he could have framed the Pats is as much on the table as any other speculative opinion at this point.

 

Kravitz hammered home the fact that it was Jackson that brought it to the attention of the team and officials after his interception.. which was a total lie... it was also being used in arguments of "How could Jackson tell the football was deflated but Brady couldnt!? Brady is a liar!"

 

So there you have it.. Jackson NEVER felt a difference in the ball or reported ANYTHING..  this was planned dating back to November by Irsay and his cronies.

 

You heard it here first!

Thats a great story,but youleft out the 3 shady characters on the grassy knoll that looked like FBI agents and the hitchiker with ties to pro-castro activists in New Orleans.I don't know what happened,but i'm sure Irsay wasn't behind it,

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I still will keep the Colts Setup card on the table..

After this article, this smells to high heaven of Jim Irsay doing this as a setup:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462315/article/dqwell-jackson-footballs-didnt-change-outcome

Here are some tidbits from the article:

This means that the supposed catalyst for this entire investigation that Kravitz reported was a LIE. Kravitz is buddy buddy with Jim Irsay, and the way they've approached this makes it look like they had this planned all along.

Here is Jackson's take on the deflated balls (lol)

Then the story gets VERY interesting...

So the Pats ended up with Colts footballs before half time...

Irsay had this planned since they got lambasted back in November.. I'd love it so much if they found camera footage of someone on the Colts swapping out balls or messing with the Patriots balls in some way. Irsay's hate of the Patriots is well known and hes already proven to be someone of questionable character, so I think with this plot twist speculating that he could have framed the Pats is as much on the table as any other speculative opinion at this point.

Kravitz hammered home the fact that it was Jackson that brought it to the attention of the team and officials after his interception.. which was a total lie... it was also being used in arguments of "How could Jackson tell the football was deflated but Brady couldnt!? Brady is a liar!"

So there you have it.. Jackson NEVER felt a difference in the ball or reported ANYTHING.. this was planned dating back to November by Irsay and his cronies.

You heard it here first!

You really need to stop listening to Coast to Coast

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I don't buy into that. You may be correct, and I don't know anymore or less then you, but let me give a different view. Perhaps they did know. But it doesnt do the league in general any good for these teams to drag it out in public. I doubt the other coaches and owners want the distraction around the superbowl. Like it our not, the NFL is an old boys club at the ownership level, while there may be some minor spats they will circle the wagons when needed. I just dont see the wisdom of "creating" the controversy.

 

Its correct that it was Brady, along with Manning that started the movement to allow balls to have done whatever they do. Quick google search and this was one article in case your interested 

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-11-28/sports/0611270475_1_new-football-new-england-quarterback-competition-committee

 

I think the media is calming down...I see the story was moved to the 3rd column on Drudge :)

 

It will be on the first page for Ravens & Colts forums/ news media for years to come.

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People are starting tp dig through the Patriots stats over the years and some major anomalies involving the ability to grip the ball are coming up. This is from the Wall Street Journal: http://www.wsj.com/articles/patriots-always-keep-a-tight-grip-on-the-ball-1422054846

New England has had an uncanny ability to hold on to the football for quite some time. According to data compiled by Warren Sharp of Sharp Football Analysis, the Patriots fumble far less than any other team that plays outdoors, where the elements can make the football harder to handle. Beginning in the 2010 season, Patriots players have fumbled (whether lost or recovered) once every 73 touches from scrimmage, which is 52% better than the league average. The next best team is the Ravens, who have fumbled once every 55 touches.

Additionally, according to Stats, LLC, the six players who have played extensively for the Patriots and other teams in this span all fumbled far less frequently wearing the New England uniform. Including recovered fumbles, Danny Amendola, BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Danny Woodhead, Wes Welker, Brandon LaFell and LeGarrette Blount have lost the ball eight times in 1,482 touches for the Patriots since 2010, or once every 185.3 times. For their other teams, they fumbled 22 times in 1,701 touches (once every 77.3).

And the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/sports/football/patriots-do-notably-well-in-wet-weather-analysis-shows.html

Over the past 12 seasons, the New England Patriots have played so well in wet conditions that their margin of victory in those games has exceeded the betting spread — set by a global market that tries to take all known advantages into account — 80 percent of the time, according to an analysis by Covers, a sports betting information website.

The analysis suggests that the Patriots have an edge in wet weather that neither the general public nor professional bettors have taken into account. But the analysis sheds no light on what that advantage, or those advantages, might be. The Patriots exceeded the spread 56 percent of the time in their other games during that period, the analysis shows.

It seems a clear that the Patriots have had a decided advantage for years over the rest of the league when it comes to being able to maintain a firm grip in all conditions and, other than Brady, they've done it with a revolving cast of characters. I find it interesting that the players who have left the Pats have had their fumble rates rise dramatically. I don't buy that this is due to some magical coaching technique that Belichick uses that no one else knows about that allows his players to hang onto the ball in all conditions far better than anyone else. They've obviously had some unknown advantage for years now and it's becoming obvious what that advantage was.

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they have been able to supply their own balls for awhile. This isn't the first season

 

I know, but the article shows that the Pats fumbles per season dropped substantially starting in 2007 while everyone else's stayed about the same.  The only exception was in 2013.

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they weren't magic footballs. The colts balls passed at halftime, the patriots balls failed. Clear deception and tampering inside the pats players and staff. Read what troy aikman has to say about the entire ordeal. Hell, most ex playersand execs are hammering them.. Its been on fox news and cnn. They have to drop the hammer or look like fools again

Like I said we'll see who is right on the punishment if all they find is footballs and nothing else. The league does not base its decision on retired players thoughts. Of course, many players have come and said it is not big deal including pretty much the entire Colts team.

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There is every way he can do just that.

 

11 footballs can't get from 12.5 to 10.5 without human hands.    It's really that simple.

 

This wasn't the weather.    The Colts' football's all checked out.

 

It could only happen by tampering.     And that's all the NFL needs to drop the hammer.    And they will.    At this point,  nothing is going to happen before the Super Bowl,  but it will afterwards....   but all of America knows the Pats were caught cheating.

 

So,  something is going to happen.   And it's going to be bigger than you expect.    Much bigger.

You may be right. We'll see. Goodell is going to have a time tough time telling Kraft he is doing anything more than a fine without actual proof of the tampering in terms of a chain of command and the person who did it. And as much as the other owners want to see the Pats fry NONE of them want to see a punishment for suspicion without verification because that is a very dangerous precedent which Goodell learned pretty well in the Rice case assuming you believe he never saw the second video.

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That article also talked about the backlash that would occur if the Patriots got away with no punishment. I can't speak for Goodell, but if no one in the Pats organization is willing to tell the truth I would think that would make him mad enough to make the punishment worse. If the Patriots did not learn to stop violating rules when the NFL fined the team $250,000, the coach $500,000 and taking a first round draft pick, then maybe the NFL will have to increase the punishment to the point they will stop.

He can't punish the Pats because people want him to. He needs the evidence that someone did the tampering and who told them to do it. Like I said in a previous post, no owner wants to see Goodell come down hard on this if all he has is the footballs as that sets a very dangerous precedent that suspicion equals verification.

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you can bet it will be a massive topic on media day

I have been thinking about this and I think the NFL squashes it on media day. I think they tell the media that the investigation is still going on and players and coaches of both teams have been instructed not to answer any questions. That is what the Pats did with the Aaron Hernandez case and all questions ceased during the 2013 season.

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He can't punish the Pats because people want him to. He needs the evidence that someone did the tampering and who told them to do it. Like I said in a previous post, no owner wants to see Goodell come down hard on this if all he has is the footballs as that sets a very dangerous precedent that suspicion equals verification.

 

From what I have read all 12 of the footballs that the Patriots were using were under-inflated, 11 were greater than 2psi under-inflated.  All 12 of the footballs that the Colts were using and all 12 of the backup footballs were properly inflated.  Now you tell me what explanation would be the logical one for that?  I heard someone say yesterday that if you see a turtle on a fence it did not get there by itself, someone put it there.  Well someone from the Patriots organization, since they had control of the footballs, deflated them.  If no one is going to tell the truth, if I am the commissioner then I would drop the hammer worse than if they would just come clean.  It is the old "the cover up is worse than the crime".  The Pats have a history of this and therefore do not get the benefit of doubt.

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From what I have read all 12 of the footballs that the Patriots were using were under-inflated, 11 were greater than 2psi under-inflated.  All 12 of the footballs that the Colts were using and all 12 of the backup footballs were properly inflated.  Now you tell me what explanation would be the logical one for that?  I heard someone say yesterday that if you see a turtle on a fence it did not get there by itself, someone put it there.  Well someone from the Patriots organization, since they had control of the footballs, deflated them.  If no one is going to tell the truth, if I am the commissioner then I would drop the hammer worse than if they would just come clean.  It is the old "the cover up is worse than the crime".  The Pats have a history of this and therefore do not get the benefit of doubt.

If it was just about the footballs than the commish would have already dropped the hammer but he hasn't. In fact, he has hired an investigative team to get try to get to the bottom. Why? So he can find out what happed and if the Pats are found to have touched those footballs then he can throw the book at them. He really can't otherwise. You need the chain of command and who is responsible. Otherwise, it is just suspicion with no evidence of who did it.

 

And I have said, IF they find it which will be very difficult, then heads will roll as they should. Also, there is a possibility that this investigation could find evidence that exonerates the Pats well.

 

By the way, this will probably go on for a few months as the guy that headed the Richie Incongnito case is handing this and it took him three months to report his findings to the NFL when he handled that case.

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He can't punish the Pats because people want him to. He needs the evidence that someone did the tampering and who told them to do it. Like I said in a previous post, no owner wants to see Goodell come down hard on this if all he has is the footballs as that sets a very dangerous precedent that suspicion equals verification.

The footballs are the verification. They didn't deflate themselves and they were in the Patriots control after being checked by the officials. They had the means and the motive. You don't need a video of the crime being committed or a confession to convict someone in a court of law and you certainly don't need them in Roger Goodell's NFL.

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If it was just about the footballs than the commish would have already dropped the hammer but he hasn't. In fact, he has hired an investigative team to get try to get to the bottom. Why? So he can find out what happed and if the Pats are found to have touched those footballs then he can throw the book at them. He really can't otherwise. You need the chain of command and who is responsible. Otherwise, it is just suspicion with no evidence of who did it.

 

And I have said, IF they find it which will be very difficult, then heads will roll as they should. Also, there is a possibility that this investigation could find evidence that exonerates the Pats well.

 

By the way, this will probably go on for a few months as the guy that headed the Richie Incongnito case is handing this and it took him three months to report his findings to the NFL when he handled that case.

The NFL has no interest in dropping the hammer right now because they don't want to screw with the Super Bowl and I'm glad they won't because I don't want them to screw with it either. They're also still reeling from the Ray Rice debacle so they aren't going to be jumping to impose any quick punishments that they may regret later if more evidence turns up. That doesn't mean they won't drop the hammer on the Pats even if they aren't able to prove who did it and who ordered it, especially if circumstantial evidence exists involving fumble rates and performance in wet weather conditions that suggest the Patriots have been doing this for years.

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From everything I'm reading, and watching, and hearing......  The NFL is still gathering evidence, still conducting interviews, and more than likely building a case against T. Brady.   Like it or not,  that appears to be what is happening.   

 

They will wait until all evidence has been gathered, all interviews have been conducted, then, and only then will they go to Brady with what they have.

 

I believe it will be a few months...     JUST MY OPINION  from everything I've been reading and hearing.

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I still will keep the Colts Setup card on the table..

 

After this article, this smells to high heaven of Jim Irsay doing this as a setup:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462315/article/dqwell-jackson-footballs-didnt-change-outcome

 

 

Here are some tidbits from the article:

 

 

This means that the supposed catalyst for this entire investigation that Kravitz reported was a LIE.  Kravitz is buddy buddy with Jim Irsay, and the way they've approached this makes it look like they had this planned all along.

 

Here is Jackson's take on the deflated balls (lol)

 

 

Then the story gets VERY interesting... 

 

 

So the Pats ended up with Colts footballs before half time...

 

Irsay had this planned since they got lambasted back in November..  I'd love it so much if they found camera footage of someone on the Colts swapping out balls or messing with the Patriots balls in some way.  Irsay's hate of the Patriots is well known and hes already proven to be someone of questionable character, so I think with this plot twist speculating that he could have framed the Pats is as much on the table as any other speculative opinion at this point.

 

Kravitz hammered home the fact that it was Jackson that brought it to the attention of the team and officials after his interception.. which was a total lie... it was also being used in arguments of "How could Jackson tell the football was deflated but Brady couldnt!? Brady is a liar!"

 

So there you have it.. Jackson NEVER felt a difference in the ball or reported ANYTHING..  this was planned dating back to November by Irsay and his cronies.

 

You heard it here first!

 

Apologist your team cheated . End of story

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If it was just about the footballs than the commish would have already dropped the hammer but he hasn't. In fact, he has hired an investigative team to get try to get to the bottom. Why? So he can find out what happed and if the Pats are found to have touched those footballs then he can throw the book at them. He really can't otherwise. You need the chain of command and who is responsible. Otherwise, it is just suspicion with no evidence of who did it.

 

And I have said, IF they find it which will be very difficult, then heads will roll as they should. Also, there is a possibility that this investigation could find evidence that exonerates the Pats well.

 

By the way, this will probably go on for a few months as the guy that headed the Richie Incongnito case is handing this and it took him three months to report his findings to the NFL when he handled that case.

 

Oh this is probably going to drag on for awhile.  I disagree that they have to find out who was responsible, since at present there is no other logical explanation than it was someone in the Patriots organization.  Everything I have read about Goodell is that he does not like being lied to, well someone in the Patriots organization is lying.

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The footballs are the verification. They didn't deflate themselves and they were in the Patriots control after being checked by the officials. They had the means and the motive. You don't need a video of the crime being committed or a confession to convict someone in a court of law and you certainly don't need them in Roger Goodell's NFL.

Really? They why hire an investigative team whose job is to analyze video footage?

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The NFL has no interest in dropping the hammer right now because they don't want to screw with the Super Bowl and I'm glad they won't because I don't want them to screw with it either. They're also still reeling from the Ray Rice debacle so they aren't going to be jumping to impose any quick punishments that they may regret later if more evidence turns up. That doesn't mean they won't drop the hammer on the Pats even if they aren't able to prove who did it and who ordered it, especially if circumstantial evidence exists involving fumble rates and performance in wet weather conditions that suggest the Patriots have been doing this for years.

I agree about the Super Bowl BUT the bigger factor is trying to get this right in a year where they have gotten every case wrong.

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Oh this is probably going to drag on for awhile.  I disagree that they have to find out who was responsible, since at present there is no other logical explanation than it was someone in the Patriots organization.  Everything I have read about Goodell is that he does not like being lied to, well someone in the Patriots organization is lying.

The only way the Patriots are lying is if someone in their team did do something and was ordered to do it by Bill or Tom.

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    • According to Houston whispers, the Texans won't pursue a new candidate this year. O'Brien will be the GM for 2019. If that's true, I think Caserio will end up in there .... just not in 2019. (His contract will expire next year in Boston.)
    • Well, Sanders played mostly close to the box, and was covering the middle area of the field a lot in Dungy's system, and Moore plays in the slot, and he is also covering the middle area of the field as well. So, I kinda see why you saw some similarities. However, they are very different types of players, they play at different positions, so there is hardly any similarity if you break down what they do actually. It might seem a bit similar, but it's very different.   And, as others said, Bob was a generational talent. He played on an entirely different level. Remember when teams use to ran 200 / 300 yards against the Colts D in 2006? The entire regular season? Then Bob came back for the playoffs and the Colts D suddenly turned into the big wall of china. That was Sanders, alone. He was a game changer when healthy.
    • You were correct with your 6 games statement. ;) Only, that 6 games can be gained by being on active roster (which is not game day roster!) or on IR.   (Might worth to add, that players on IR don't count against the 53, but they are under "normal" NFL contract. They can rehab in the team facilities, they can take part in meetings, etc. Please also note, that waiving a player with injury settlement and putting someone on IR are two different move. The latter is the "real" IR. It keeps the player under contract, and be part of the team. The former is practically a cut, with some financial implications. E.g., the team is willing to pay money for the player, if he won't be claimed by another team.)   Regarding Cox, 2017 didn't count as accrued season for him, because he spent most of the year on PS, which does not count. (He wasn't on IR neither. I mean, "under contract" IR, because players can be waived with IR settlement as well, which does not count as accrued season.) Cox will be an ERFA in 2020, and an RFA in 2021.
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