Speculation Thread: What do you think happened at Deflategate? (Merge)

[da_pats_troll]

There at least two huge assumptions at play here.  First and the biggest is, you are assuming that the baseline pressure outdoors for a football in any weather/temperature is 12.5 PSI.  The above equation supports your argument, but only if the football can go no lower than 12.5 PSI at 20 degrees F, which was the recorded low on game day.  More proof for that assertion is required.  

 

Second, you're assuming that the entire temperature drop from kickoff occurred in the first half and no temperature drop occurred after half time.  Again, we don't know the recorded PSI's of either team's footballs at half time or the end of the game, only that the Patriots footballs were brought within the compliance levels at half time and both team's footballs were within compliance levels at the end of the game.  Again, more proof is required, of the PSIs at half time and the end of the game to support that. 

 

You're going to make me do the math

 

So lets look at the math.

 

Assumptions:

 

1. The referee's did their checks, and at the time of inspection, all balls were between the required 12.5 and 13.5 psi.

2. the temp in the refs room was 72F

 

We will only look at the pressure change between the refs measuring them and 1/2 time. We could do the same exercise from 1/2 time to end of game if wanted also.

 

 

The formula.

 

p1/t1 = p2/t2

 

p1 and p2 are starting and ending pressures in absolute pressures (so we will add or subtract 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) to the gauge pressure as needed.

t1 and t2 are starting and ending temperatures. They will be measured in kelvins.

 

we will do the math with 2 balls, one at each range of the allowable psi range. Why these pressures..they represent the range of all possible legal pressures to start the game.

 

starting temperature, 72 F or  295.4K

ending temperature. 50 F or 283.1 K

 

starting pressure (ball one) - 13.5 psi gauge, or 28.2 psi absolute.

starting pressure (ball two) - 12.5 psi gauge, or 27.2 psi absolute.

 

pressure change on ball one can be solved as follows.

 

p2 = p1*t2/t1

 

plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 28.2*283.1/295.4 = 27.0 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 27 - 14.7 or 12.3 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.

 

pressure change in ball two can be solved as follows 

 

p2 = p1*t2/t1

 

plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 27.2*283.1/295.4 = 26.1 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 26.1 - 14.7 or 11.4 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.

 

that was at game start. If the temp fell further by 1/2 time, the pressures would be lower still. For instance, if the temp dropped by 10 F to

40 F at 1/2 time, the balls would be at 11.8 and 10.9 psi respectfully.

 

 

The nfl states that the Colts balls were in spec @ 1/2 time. Even given the game start temperature of 50F, this is impossible if the balls were tested properly 

with an accurate gauge.

[BullsColtsFan1]

That's funny.  I also read another scientist came out and said what BB said was true.  The deflation of 11 of the 12 balls could have dropped because of the temps.  I don't remember the guys name.  Really tho? 11 out of 12 of the Pats balls were but 0 out of 12 of the Colts balls were? Something doesn't add up.  I hope they get found guilty and I hope the league comes down hard on them but it's the Patriots, just like Sherman said, nothing will happen.

[Bad Morty]

how is it looking like that? Have you talked to Ted Wells?

Look - you have to use some logical thinking here. So let me ask you this - do you actually think that somebody from the Pats organization was sticking a needle into footballs on the sideline after the league had certified them for play? Do you know how dumb and risky that would be? First off, the chances of someone seeing them doing that to 12 balls or videotaping it is astronomically high given all the cameras there. There would be a tape, and we'd have seen it. And Belichick would know this and would be unlikely to be so defiant about it because he'd be easily made to look like a fool. Also, consider the act of sticking a needle in a ball...I have punctured basketballs before by doing this. What happens if they puncture a football and it fully deflates? How would they explain their way out of THAT? So to me, the notion that they tampered with the balls after the refs tested them makes zero sense, and I don't think you'll see any evidence that that happened. It would have been FAR too risky for the miminal reward.

 

Now, do I put it past the Pats to have played games? No - I don't. However the ONLY way I could see them doing this was via some scheme where they handed the balls off to the refs at 12.5 knowing that they would deflate when they hit the field. I thought the "inflating them in a sauna" theory was more sensible than the "needle in the ball" theory. But that has been refuted too. But either way, whether it was innocent or a scheme, how are they going to sanction them for anything? The fact seems to be that they handed the refs 12.5 psi balls, they  didn't tamper with the balls during the game, and then at half time the balls were deflated to some degree or other (and the latest reports seem to indicate that the "every ball was 2 psi low" report may not have been accurate). So check the rule book...if that's how it happened, then no rules were broken. If there's a video of the balls being tampered with, then I will fully accept that evidence and agree that they should be punished. But I kinda have a feeling we won't be seeing anything like that.

[dynasty13]

That's funny.  I also read another scientist came out and said what BB said was true.  The deflation of 11 of the 12 balls could have dropped because of the temps.  I don't remember the guys name.  Really tho? 11 out of 12 of the Pats balls were but 0 out of 12 of the Colts balls were? Something doesn't add up.  I hope they get found guilty and I hope the league comes down hard on them but it's the Patriots, just like Sherman said, nothing will happen.

 

I also read a report yesterday that the Patriots balls were closer to -1 PSI below the allowed instead of the originally reported -2 below. From what I understand, I think the case that they're trying to make is that even though 11 of the Patriots balls were below the allowed PSI and none of the Colts balls were, they both probably dropped by about -1 during the half...but it more depends on what PSI they started at. So if the Colts balls started at 13.5 and then dropped to 12.5 by halftime when they were measured, than that is ok....but if the Patriots balls started at 12.5 and then dropped to 11.5 by halftime when they were measured, that's when you get your 'underinflation'. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

But they haven't been found to have cheated. And it's looking like they won't be found to have cheated.

 IMO 

 

The verdict is in in the court of public opinion nobody other than a Patriot fan can deny they once again broke the rules 11 balls tell the story the team was responsible & the can has been kicked down the road the story is on hold while a supposed investigation takes place at the end of the day everyone will agree someone cheated & the Patriots benefited & that will be it .

 

 

Hopefully the Seahawks Win the SB the New England team has benefited enough .

 

The Patriots like Barry Bonds & Sammy Sosa beat the system & most people realize it they all deserve an Asterisk next to there name .

[bababooey]

http://www.gq.com/sports/201502/roger-goodell-season-from-hell

 

The Season from Hell: Inside Roger Goodell's Ruthless Football Machine

article about Goodell's hellish year and his bff Kraft

[Bad Morty]

 IMO 

 

The verdict is in in the court of public opinion nobody other than a Patriot fan can deny they once again broke the rules 11 balls tell the story the team was responsible & the can has been kicked down the road the story is on hold while a supposed investigation takes place at the end of the day everyone will agree someone cheated & the Patriots benefited & that will be it .

 

 

Hopefully the Seahawks Win the SB the New England team has benefited enough .

 

The Patriots like Barry Bonds & Sammy Sosa beat the system & most people realize it they all deserve an Asterisk next to there name .

None of which really matters. That's just what fans do. The Yankees are "tainted" to all Red Sox fans as well, due to all the steroid users. Last I checked though, there are no real asterisks next to their titiles.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

*****************************************   

 

[Yehoodi]

Well all reports have been 2 psi and there has been no one to contradict that. Your qb looked like a 12 year old in the principal's office at his press conference trying to convince everyone of his innocence and failing miserably.

 

Lets wait till all the facts come out and we can see what is what . . .

[Bad Morty]

For whoever was looking for links to scientists backing up Belichick's story. This guy is a physicist who works for the Air Force.

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/physicist-emailed-us-explain-exactly-143048032.html

[Nadine]

For whoever was looking for links to scientists backing up Belichick's story. This guy is a physicist who works for the Air Force.

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/physicist-emailed-us-explain-exactly-143048032.html

This was helpful and does support the Patriots saying that they were within the letter of the law.

 

Also really supports changing this whole thing where they've let teams do as they will with the balls.

 

To me, it suggests that the Pats found a way to play with balls below the PSI they should be.  Personally I think that's wrong but, agree with you that if this is true, Pats skate on this one and the rules change because of it

[Blue Horseshoe]

 

You're going to make me do the math

 

So lets look at the math.

 

Assumptions:

 

1. The referee's did their checks, and at the time of inspection, all balls were between the required 12.5 and 13.5 psi.

2. the temp in the refs room was 72F

 

We will only look at the pressure change between the refs measuring them and 1/2 time. We could do the same exercise from 1/2 time to end of game if wanted also.

 

 

Why would the footballs be measured indoors?  Why not measure them on the field after cooling them to the game start temperature since those are the conditions at which the ball is required to be within a specific pressure range?  Measuring them indoors in controlled temperature and humidity would almost guarantee that the footballs would never be in spec on hot or cold days or days when the humidity was significantly different than that indoors.

[da_pats_troll]

Why would the footballs be measured indoors?  Why not measure them on the field after cooling them to the game start temperature since those are the conditions at which the ball is required to be within a specific pressure range?

 

Thats a good question. But that's the way its done. The balls are delivered to the refs 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game and kept in their possession until 10 minutes before the game.

[GoPats]

For whoever was looking for links to scientists backing up Belichick's story. This guy is a physicist who works for the Air Force.

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/physicist-emailed-us-explain-exactly-143048032.html

 

WEEI had an engineering professor from MIT on this morning. He said that a ball would lose .5 PSI for every 10 degrees if going from a warmer environment to a colder one. So he theorized that from 70 degrees to around 50 (inside temp vs. out) a ball measuring 12.5 PSI at the beginning of a football game drop to 11.5 by halftime. 

 

If you take Mortenson's report to be 100% accurate, that doesn't explain the 2 PSI drop. But there's been no verification either way on a lot of the details he presented. 

 

It also doesn't account for the Colts' footballs being measured. The MIT prof suggested that their balls also likely lost some air but since they didn't start at the low end of the 12.5-13.5 scale, it's more likely they lost some but stayed in the acceptable range. But didn't the reports say they lost no air at all? And, if the science is right, how the heck did they NOT lose pressure? It would be nice if the NFL would provide these details when their investigation wraps up. 

 

So my conclusion is... I don't know what to believe anymore, lol... you have people from Harvard and MIT and the USAF saying one thing, and Bill Nye and others saying another, and no one seems to have the same opinion on it. Which is weird, because it's physics. 

 

What's also interesting to me is that ESPN pulled a "sports science" video that concluded that a 10.5 PSI ball provides a 1.5% increase in "grip force" over a 12.5 PSI ball. And that the more deflated ball actually travels with LESS velocity. Whether or not the Patriots deliberately broke a rule has yet to be proven, but I thought it was funny that ESPN yanked the video down. 

 

It's been a real rotten week. I expect no sympathy but hope that people remember that as fans, we're complicit in nothing. I don't think it's OK to cheat, and people's football rooting interests should not be the basis of character judgments.

 

Like most NE fans, I've moved past the anger and frustration, and just want the game to get here. If they win this game with what will inevitably be the most watched/monitored set of footballs in history, people will still complain anyway. 

[Bad Morty]

Why would the footballs be measured indoors?  Why not measure them on the field after cooling them to the game start temperature since those are the conditions at which the ball is required to be within a specific pressure range?  Measuring them indoors in controlled temperature and humidity would almost guarantee that the footballs would never be in spec on hot or cold days or days when the humidity was significantly different than that indoors.

This gets back to the very original question a lot of people were asking, that being "how big a deal is this, really"? One of the best comments I've heard on this was 'why bother even specifying an inflation range and just leave it to the QB? Nobody is going to play with a blatantly flat ball, and nobody is going to be playing with a ball so inflated that it's distorted and out of shape, because either scenario is going to be detrimnental to the QB. They are all going to play with a fully inflated ball, some a litle more firm, some a little less firm. Does it matter if the range is from 9.5 - 15 or something like that (instead of 12.5 -13.5, which seems arbitrary)?

[Gramz]

 

 

 If they win this game with what will inevitably be the most watched/monitored set of footballs in history, people will still complain anyway. 

And if they don't,  there will of course be those wanting to claim,  Brady couldn't do it with a legal football      

 

Not saying I would say that,  just that you know there will be people claiming that.

[horseshoeblue22]

We can debate this forever, but there is one fact about this situation that no body can deny...the NFL is intentionally withholding information from the public. At this point, they should have released exactly how much pressure was tested at the initial inspection, how much pressure was in the balls when they were checked at half time and how much pressure was in the ball at the end of the game. To do any kind of definitive scientific test, a legitimate scientist would need exact numbers, and the numbers that the Colts balls measured in at to provide a reference point.

The official report should have included how and when they obtained the information that led to their suspicions. They should have went into detail on what exactly the "process of prepping the balls for game day" actually entails.

But no, the official report released on Friday included as little information as possible...which suggests to me that the NFL does NOT want anyone to figure this out before the super bowl and compromise the billions in profit that they will rake in over a three and a half hour time span.

[GoPats]

And if they don't,  there will of course be those wanting to claim,  Brady couldn't do it with a legal football      

 

Not saying I would say that,  just that you know there will be people claiming that.

 

Of course... there are agenda-driven people that insist the Patriots still film defensive signals. (Even though defensive signals have been radioed in for the past five or six years or so.) You get the point. 

 

I've learned in life that you go your own way, form your own opinion. People will have theirs. I can't control that so why worry about it? Let 'em have their imaginary asterisks.

 

I've never been one to revel in another's misfortune... what's that term called? Schadenfreude I think? Been plenty of that around here lately. 

[Bad Morty]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2015/01/thats_bs_-_wilson_doesnt_seem_to_buy_belichicks_sc.html

'That's nonsense': Football Manufacturer Doesn't Seem To Buy Belichick's Explanation

Wilson football reaction to BB's presser about the balls being unique and therefore flawed despite the Colt balls being fine.

 

What's the best part about dating a Patriots fan? They don't care if you cheat.

Do you believe somebody deflated the balls on the sidelines in full view of the cameras? Because if you apply any logical thinking, you'll come to the conclusion that that's an absurd and unrealistic scenario.

[Larry Renforth]

What I don't get is that ok, the Colts may not have inflated their balls to the lower end of the allowable range initially, and so due to weather effects, were still within range during the game.

 

But this isn't the first time football has been played in this kind of weather, so you've got to believe another team at one time at their balls at 12.5 psi (at the low end), and no other team in any other game has been "caught" using deflated balls before.  That doesn't add up to me, no matter how many formulas you apply.  

[Gramz]

Of course... there are agenda-driven people that insist the Patriots still film defensive signals. (Even though defensive signals have been radioed in for the past five or six years or so.) You get the point. 

 

I've learned in life that you go your own way, form your own opinion. People will have theirs. I can't control that so why worry about it? Let 'em have their imaginary asterisks.

 

I've never been one to revel in another's misfortune... what's that term called? Schadenfreude I think? Been plenty of that around here lately. 

You're correct.   And I have admitted already numerous times that I have already come to the conclusion of what I think I know.  Nothing and no-one will change what I think.   

 

I think the vast majority of people, if being honest, would also admit they have already formed their own opinion and nothing will change it.  It all depends on what side of the fence you reside.

 

I also know what I personally think doesn't matter to anyone but me.    

 

It's a shame that this is the total focus of everyone during the 2 weeks leading up to the Super Bowl, but it is what it is.

[Blue Horseshoe]

This gets back to the very original question a lot of people were asking, that being "how big a deal is this, really"? One of the best comments I've heard on this was 'why bother even specifying an inflation range and just leave it to the QB? Nobody is going to play with a blatantly flat ball, and nobody is going to be playing with a ball so inflated that it's distorted and out of shape, because either scenario is going to be detrimnental to the QB. They are all going to play with a fully inflated ball, some a litle more firm, some a little less firm. Does it matter if the range is from 9.5 - 15 or something like that (instead of 12.5 -13.5, which seems arbitrary)?

 

Why not just use a single set of footballs for the game prepared in a standardized way and completely controlled by league employees.

[Bad Morty]

Why not just use a single set of footballs for the game prepared in a standardized way and completely controlled by league employees.

 

I have no problem with this, but the league is all about promoting offense. Putting slick, untreated footballs in play would probably run counter to that.

[GoPats]

You're correct.   And I have admitted already numerous times that I have already come to the conclusion of what I think I know.  Nothing and no-one will change what I think.    I think the vast majority of people, if being honest, would also admit they have already formed their own opinion and nothing will change it.  It all depends on what side of the fence you reside.

 

 

 

I agree to an extent... I'm not so biased that I would doubt irrefutable proof at this point. But for those who dislike the Patriots and especially BB/TB, no. Those opinions won't change no matter what. People already don't trust the NFL, so the eventual release of their report on this will do nothing in terms of public opinion. Everyone seems to already forget that everything we think we "know" about this whole case came from Mortenson's report citing anonymous sources. The real, actual facts are, so far, pretty limited. As a Pats fan you want to give them the benefit of the doubt but would I ignore any direct, obvious evidence? No way. 

 

Tell me something, honestly... if Peyton was asked about this and came out and said something like, "Yeah I'm sick of seeing those guys get criticized, this shouldn't even be a big deal," or something to that effect, would it impact how you felt about it? 

[Gramz]

I agree to an extent... I'm not so biased that I would doubt irrefutable proof at this point. But for those who dislike the Patriots and especially BB/TB, no. Those opinions won't change no matter what. People already don't trust the NFL, so the eventual release of their report on this will do nothing in terms of public opinion. Everyone seems to already forget that everything we think we "know" about this whole case came from Mortenson's report citing anonymous sources. The real, actual facts are, so far, pretty limited. As a Pats fan you want to give them the benefit of the doubt but would I ignore any direct, obvious evidence? No way. 

 

Tell me something, honestly... if Peyton was asked about this and came out and said something like, "Yeah I'm sick of seeing those guys get criticized, this shouldn't even be a big deal," or something to that effect, would it impact how you felt about it? 

No, not at all.   I am assuming you are asking Me that question, because you think I'm such a Peyton Homer that I would believe whatever he said.   The answer is No.   I form my own opinions.  I consider myself to be a fairly good judge of character, and can usually spot when someone is being dishonest. 

 

 And since you brought it up,  I don't think there is any chance of Peyton ever voicing an opinion on this matter.

[horseshoeblue22]

I think at this point the league knows exactly how the balls lost pressure, if it was intentional, and what kind of penalties they plan on enforcing...you just won't hear about any of it until after the super bowl has been played.

Anyone suggesting that this was a failed sting operation initiated by the league is naive at best, misleading at worse. I DO believe, however, that this was a sting operation initiated by the Colts...and league officials were furious when the Colts publicly leaked the information to Bob Kravitz. If the league were really behind this, and the Colts weren't involved, then why would the league leak this information to Bob Kravitz of the Indianapolis star...of all people?

[-JJ-]

This was helpful and does support the Patriots saying that they were within the letter of the law.

 

Also really supports changing this whole thing where they've let teams do as they will with the balls.

 

To me, it suggests that the Pats found a way to play with balls below the PSI they should be.  Personally I think that's wrong but, agree with you that if this is true, Pats skate on this one and the rules change because of it

You mean like scrubbing it and putting it in the dryer.   They should hang dry them

 

I've suspected the legitimate pre- treatment of balls can effect one way or another.

 

Still all speculation on my part. 

[-JJ-]

I have no problem with this, but the league is all about promoting offense. Putting slick, untreated footballs in play would probably run counter to that.

And that's the problem. League and it's obsession with offense.

[Narcosys]

But they haven't been found to have cheated. And it's looking like they won't be found to have cheated.

Ya, and oj Simpson was innocent, the magic bullet really was magic, and Hilary Clinton absolutely knew nothing about benghazi because of YouTube.

[dw49]

WEEI had an engineering professor from MIT on this morning. He said that a ball would lose .5 PSI for every 10 degrees if going from a warmer environment to a colder one. So he theorized that from 70 degrees to around 50 (inside temp vs. out) a ball measuring 12.5 PSI at the beginning of a football game drop to 11.5 by halftime. 

 

If you take Mortenson's report to be 100% accurate, that doesn't explain the 2 PSI drop. But there's been no verification either way on a lot of the details he presented. 

 

It also doesn't account for the Colts' footballs being measured. The MIT prof suggested that their balls also likely lost some air but since they didn't start at the low end of the 12.5-13.5 scale, it's more likely they lost some but stayed in the acceptable range. But didn't the reports say they lost no air at all? And, if the science is right, how the heck did they NOT lose pressure? It would be nice if the NFL would provide these details when their investigation wraps up. 

 

So my conclusion is... I don't know what to believe anymore, lol... you have people from Harvard and MIT and the USAF saying one thing, and Bill Nye and others saying another, and no one seems to have the same opinion on it. Which is weird, because it's physics. 

 

What's also interesting to me is that ESPN pulled a "sports science" video that concluded that a 10.5 PSI ball provides a 1.5% increase in "grip force" over a 12.5 PSI ball. And that the more deflated ball actually travels with LESS velocity. Whether or not the Patriots deliberately broke a rule has yet to be proven, but I thought it was funny that ESPN yanked the video down. 

 

It's been a real rotten week. I expect no sympathy but hope that people remember that as fans, we're complicit in nothing. I don't think it's OK to cheat, and people's football rooting interests should not be the basis of character judgments.

 

Like most NE fans, I've moved past the anger and frustration, and just want the game to get here. If they win this game with what will inevitably be the most watched/monitored set of footballs in history, people will still complain anyway. 

 

I'm assuming the balls were inflated to the bottom of the limit 12.5 at halftime. The NFL then says they tested the balls at the end of the game and they were all in compliance. If true and considering it got colder as the night went on , how do they explain the Pat and Colt balls staying in compliance ? Don't for get that you have the "WHOLE  " game on the Colt balls . Why didn't these balls lose more than 1 PSI being in the cold for 4 hours , while the Pats lost all that PSI just from the start to the Jackson INT ?

[Bad Morty]

Ya, and oj Simpson was innocent, the magic bullet really was magic, and Hilary Clinton absolutely knew nothing about benghazi because of YouTube.

 

Fine job here...let's see - in one post you have drawn a parallel between deflated footballs and the deaths of:

 

1) Nicole Simpson

2) Ron Goldman

3) John F. Kennedy

4) Ambassador Stevens

5) The 3 other Americans killed during the Benghazi attack

 

so...11 deflated footballs = 7 murdered Americans. Nice set of priorities ya got there.

[Narcosys]

Fine job here...let's see - in one post you have drawn a parallel between deflated footballs and the deaths of:

1) Nicole Simpson

2) Ron Goldman

3) John F. Kennedy

4) Ambassador Stevens

5) The 3 other Americans killed during the Benghazi attack

so...11 deflated footballs = 7 murdered Americans. Nice set of priorities ya got there.

That's what you got from that? Really? That's what you're going with?

Ok I'll spell it out for you. Just cause something is ruled a certain way or is the official story doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. Clear enough for you? Did you understand that time or do you want to try and argue the small details instead of the actual point?

[OffensivelyPC]

 

You're going to make me do the math

 

So lets look at the math.

 

Assumptions:

 

1. The referee's did their checks, and at the time of inspection, all balls were between the required 12.5 and 13.5 psi.

2. the temp in the refs room was 72F

 

We will only look at the pressure change between the refs measuring them and 1/2 time. We could do the same exercise from 1/2 time to end of game if wanted also.

 

 

The formula.

 

p1/t1 = p2/t2

 

p1 and p2 are starting and ending pressures in absolute pressures (so we will add or subtract 14.7 (atmospheric pressure) to the gauge pressure as needed.

t1 and t2 are starting and ending temperatures. They will be measured in kelvins.

 

we will do the math with 2 balls, one at each range of the allowable psi range. Why these pressures..they represent the range of all possible legal pressures to start the game.

 

starting temperature, 72 F or  295.4K

ending temperature. 50 F or 283.1 K

 

starting pressure (ball one) - 13.5 psi gauge, or 28.2 psi absolute.

starting pressure (ball two) - 12.5 psi gauge, or 27.2 psi absolute.

 

pressure change on ball one can be solved as follows.

 

p2 = p1*t2/t1

 

plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 28.2*283.1/295.4 = 27.0 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 27 - 14.7 or 12.3 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.

 

pressure change in ball two can be solved as follows 

 

p2 = p1*t2/t1

 

plugging in the numbers we have p2 = 27.2*283.1/295.4 = 26.1 psi absolute. the gauge pressure would be 26.1 - 14.7 or 11.4 psi gauge when measured at 50 F.

 

that was at game start. If the temp fell further by 1/2 time, the pressures would be lower still. For instance, if the temp dropped by 10 F to

40 F at 1/2 time, the balls would be at 11.8 and 10.9 psi respectfully.

 

 

The nfl states that the Colts balls were in spec @ 1/2 time. Even given the game start temperature of 50F, this is impossible if the balls were tested properly 

with an accurate gauge.

You are measuring this with PSI absolutes.  We're not trying to neutralize and measure this in a vacuum, nor would it be appropriate since the game is played in the atmospheric pressure.  Even then, all footballs were in the same location so there isn't really any need to neutralize the atmospheric conditions, since any difference between the footballs being on the Colts sideline and the Patriots sideline is negligible, they are only about 50 yards away from one another.  So, as you say, unless the gauges are faulty, then we can simply just measure in psi's and in kelvins (and even then, it would be an odd assumption that measuring patriots football would yield drastic results while measuring the Cotls footballs were consistent with the formula we're working with - and as I've stated below, it would make no sense to measure the footballs with two different pressure gauges).  Finally, we've been given measurements in psi's, not in psia's.  Lussac's law only requires the temperature to be measured in absolute (i.e. Kevlins).  Maybe the PSIA would be more applicable if we were measuring in two footballs at different sea levels, but that's not the case here.  But whether you measure this with in psia or psi, it the explanations given by the Patriots does not add up.  Either it deflated naturally due to the weather which a deflation to the extent reported would mean that the Colts footballs would have been noncompliant at some point during the game, or the Patriot footballs were deflated beyond what acceptable science would suggest during the game.

 

As to my point on the psi absolute, I think you're equation is a bit off even if the math in it is solid.  The equations should look like this if we're measuring in standard psi:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.9 psi.

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.0 psi.

 

However, what we're really looking for is what the temperature was at the time it was measured to be below the acceptable limits.  Since the footballs were brought back up to acceptable levels at half time, we can only assume that the measurements deterimining the Patriot footballs below the acceptable level occurred at or around half time.  So I went and looked up what the recorded temperatures were in Foxboro for the day.  The following link is what I found: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KOWD/2015/1/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA,

 

According to the hourly measurements, it seems that the temperature at the game went from a high 51 degrees F to no lower than 45 degrees F (280.37k) - and actually it didn't reach 45 degrees until about the end of the game, it seemed to remain at about 50 degrees at half time, but for the sake of argument, I'll go the lowest possible to illustrate the lowest possible psi's for both the Colts footballs and the Patriot footballs:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 12.8 psi    

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 11.9 psi

 

This would explain why the Colts footballs remained in compliance the entire game.  While the Patriot footballs are not in compliance at 11.9 psi, the weather could have caused natural deflation under the limits.  So I think most of us can agree, depending on whatever the measurements at half time were, that it's conceivable the Patriots didn't cause any unnatural deflation.  However, the reports are that they were "closer to 1 psi than 2 psi" under the acceptable limits - which means that, if true, the patriot footballs would have measured somewhere between 11 psi and 11.5 psi.  You don't get that far below the acceptable limits without taking more air out of the ball.  To get to at least 11-11.5 psi's, the outdoor temperature at half time would have to have been at 8.2-29.5 degrees F.  Something just isn't adding up as far as the math is concerned, ya know?

 

PS - it was pretty fun going back and relearning the science, it's been a while since I've done physics, which I loved in college.  Came fairly natural to me, but I don't quite remember it without refreshers.  Don't even care if I'm wrong at this point, it was still a fun exercise.

[Nadine]

You mean like scrubbing it and putting it in the dryer.   They should hang dry them

 

I've suspected the legitimate pre- treatment of balls can effect one way or another.

 

Still all speculation on my part. 

If ball prep is the reason for this then i'd like a video of it.  I bet it would go viral

[da_pats_troll]

I'm assuming the balls were inflated to the bottom of the limit 12.5 at halftime. The NFL then says they tested the balls at the end of the game and they were all in compliance. If true and considering it got colder as the night went on , how do they explain the Pat and Colt balls staying in compliance ? Don't for get that you have the "WHOLE  " game on the Colt balls . Why didn't these balls lose more than 1 PSI being in the cold for 4 hours , while the Pats lost all that PSI just from the start to the Jackson INT ?

 

What does in compliance mean at the end of the game? There is no rule about that, only that the balls will be inflated to certain standards before the game. Does it mean they were still between 12.5 and 13.5, or were they at a pressure that would be compliant after accounting for a temperature drop? 

 

This is why the whole situation is messed up. The NFL is playing word smith with press releases, and the reporters all have sources...

 

blah.

[dw49]

Here's what the "SCIENCE" is asking us to swallow.

 

Colt balls inflated to 13.5 and don't lose more than 1PSI in the 4 hours they were subjected to falling temperatures and whatever other factors that might be involved. AND .. that's assuming they were inflated to the maximum

 

You are measuring this with PSI absolutes.  We're not trying to neutralize and measure this in a vacuum, nor would it be appropriate since the game is played in the atmospheric pressure.  Even then, all footballs were in the same location so there isn't really any need to neutralize the atmospheric conditions, since any difference between the footballs being on the Colts sideline and the Patriots sideline is negligible, they are only about 50 yards away from one another.  So, as you say, unless the gauges are faulty, then we can simply just measure in psi's and in kelvins (and even then, it would be an odd assumption that measuring patriots football would yield drastic results while measuring the Cotls footballs were consistent with the formula we're working with - and as I've stated below, it would make no sense to measure the footballs with two different pressure gauges).  Finally, we've been given measurements in psi's, not in psia's.  Lussac's law only requires the temperature to be measured in absolute (i.e. Kevlins).  Maybe the PSIA would be more applicable if we were measuring in two footballs at different sea levels, but that's not the case here.

 

So I think you're equation is a bit off even if the math in it is solid.  The equations should look like this:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.9 psi.

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.0 psi.

 

However, what we're really looking for is what the temperature was at the time it was measured to be below the acceptable limits.  Since the footballs were brought back up to acceptable levels at half time, we can only assume that the measurements deterimining the Patriot footballs below the acceptable level occurred at or around half time.  So I went and looked up what the recorded temperatures were in Foxboro for the day.  The following link is what I found: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KOWD/2015/1/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA,

 

According to the hourly measurements, it seems that the temperature at the game went from a high 51 degrees F to no lower than 45 degrees F (280.37k) - and actually it didn't reach 45 degrees until about the end of the game, it seemed to remain at about 50 degrees at half time, but for the sake of argument, I'll go the lowest possible to illustrate the lowest possible psi's for both the Colts footballs and the Patriot footballs:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 12.8 psi    

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 11.9 psi

 

This would explain why the Colts footballs remained in compliance the entire game.  While the Patriot footballs are not in compliance at 11.9 psi, the weather could have caused natural deflation under the limits.  So I think most of us can agree, depending on whatever the measurements at half time were, that it's conceivable the Patriots didn't cause any unnatural deflation.  However, the reports are that they were "closer to 1 psi than 2 psi" under the acceptable limits - which means that, if true, the patriot footballs would have measured somewhere between 11 psi and 11.5 psi.  You don't get that far below the acceptable limits without taking more air out of the ball.  To get to at least 11-11.5 psi's, the outdoor temperature at half time would have to have been at 8.2-29.5 degrees F.  Something just isn't adding up as far as the math is concerned, ya know?

 

What about the fact that the Colt balls were out in falling temperatures for around 4 hours and the ball that Jackson intercepted was in the conditions for 1 quarter and 6 seconds ? I'm not buying it.

[dw49]

What does in compliance mean at the end of the game? There is no rule about that, only that the balls will be inflated to certain standards before the game. Does it mean they were still between 12.5 and 13.5, or were they at a pressure that would be compliant after accounting for a temperature drop? 

 

This is why the whole situation is messed up. The NFL is playing word smith with press releases, and the reporters all have sources...

 

blah.

 

 

This we agree on.

[Old Colt]

Then why did the Colts pass inspection both time? Lets follow your weather theory. The Colts footballs where at the same stadium at the same time in the same conditions so doesn't it stand to reason that there's should lose 2 pounds of preasure as well? For them to pass at halftime they would have had to be inflated above 14 psi which would not have passed initial inspection. Unless if coarse the laws of physics work differently on the Pats side of the feild :-)

Well put... I screamed the same thing, but most of the talking heads ignore this FACT or pass it off casually.  Along with this, why were the footballs in the 2nd half that the Cheaters used not effected, they were normal PSI at the end of the game.....  the first footbalss went out 10 mins before start and they were off, but the 2nd half Footballs went out at half, were out for the same amount of time as the 1st half footballs, in colder temps actually and more rain, and yet they were still properly inflated.  bill belichick certainly can sling the nonsense about like brady slinging footballs ( and nonsense). 

[da_pats_troll]

You are measuring this with PSI absolutes.  We're not trying to neutralize and measure this in a vacuum, nor would it be appropriate since the game is played in the atmospheric pressure.  Even then, all footballs were in the same location so there isn't really any need to neutralize the atmospheric conditions, since any difference between the footballs being on the Colts sideline and the Patriots sideline is negligible, they are only about 50 yards away from one another.  So, as you say, unless the gauges are faulty, then we can simply just measure in psi's and in kelvins (and even then, it would be an odd assumption that measuring patriots football would yield drastic results while measuring the Cotls footballs were consistent with the formula we're working with - and as I've stated below, it would make no sense to measure the footballs with two different pressure gauges).  Finally, we've been given measurements in psi's, not in psia's.  Lussac's law only requires the temperature to be measured in absolute (i.e. Kevlins).  Maybe the PSIA would be more applicable if we were measuring in two footballs at different sea levels, but that's not the case here.  But whether you measure this with in psia or psi, it the explanations given by the Patriots does not add up.  Either it deflated naturally due to the weather which a deflation to the extent reported would mean that the Colts footballs would have been noncompliant at some point during the game, or the Patriot footballs were deflated beyond what acceptable science would suggest during the game.

 

As to my point on the psi absolute, I think you're equation is a bit off even if the math in it is solid.  The equations should look like this if we're measuring in standard psi:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.9 psi.

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 283.15k) / 295.37k = 12.0 psi.

 

However, what we're really looking for is what the temperature was at the time it was measured to be below the acceptable limits.  Since the footballs were brought back up to acceptable levels at half time, we can only assume that the measurements deterimining the Patriot footballs below the acceptable level occurred at or around half time.  So I went and looked up what the recorded temperatures were in Foxboro for the day.  The following link is what I found: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KOWD/2015/1/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA,

 

According to the hourly measurements, it seems that the temperature at the game went from a high 51 degrees F to no lower than 45 degrees F (280.37k) - and actually it didn't reach 45 degrees until about the end of the game, it seemed to remain at about 50 degrees at half time, but for the sake of argument, I'll go the lowest possible to illustrate the lowest possible psi's for both the Colts footballs and the Patriot footballs:

 

Ball 1 (13.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 12.8 psi    

 

Ball 2 (12.5 psi * 280.37k) / 295.37k = 11.9 psi

 

This would explain why the Colts footballs remained in compliance the entire game.  While the Patriot footballs are not in compliance at 11.9 psi, the weather could have caused natural deflation under the limits.  So I think most of us can agree, depending on whatever the measurements at half time were, that it's conceivable the Patriots didn't cause any unnatural deflation.  However, the reports are that they were "closer to 1 psi than 2 psi" under the acceptable limits - which means that, if true, the patriot footballs would have measured somewhere between 11 psi and 11.5 psi.  You don't get that far below the acceptable limits without taking more air out of the ball.  To get to at least 11-11.5 psi's, the outdoor temperature at half time would have to have been at 8.2-29.5 degrees F.  Something just isn't adding up as far as the math is concerned, ya know?

 

PS - it was pretty fun going back and relearning the science, it's been a while since I've done physics, which I loved in college.  Came fairly natural to me, but I don't quite remember it without refreshers.  Don't even care if I'm wrong at this point, it was still a fun exercise.

 

Kudos. Totally correct about getting the gas laws brushed up on.

 

(But I think I got it right on the absolute vs the gauge. did some googling and am pretty confident. The first one I came across that looked legit is this

 

http://web.cerritos.edu/cmera/SitePages/Ph101L/labs/GasLaw/GasLaw.htm

 

near the bottom, where they instruct the student to add the atmospheric temp to the gauge temp. ..

 

let me know what you find.)

[GoPats]

No, not at all.   I am assuming you are asking Me that question, because you think I'm such a Peyton Homer that I would believe whatever he said.   The answer is No.   I form my own opinions.  I consider myself to be a fairly good judge of character, and can usually spot when someone is being dishonest. 

 

 And since you brought it up,  I don't think there is any chance of Peyton ever voicing an opinion on this matter.

 

Not so much a "Peyton homer" as much as a different opinion from someone you have a lot of respect for. He and Brady sort of pushed the NFL to allow teams to work up their own balls for both home and road games, so he knows how this works. 

 

I've seen plenty of ex-QBs lambaste the Pats for this while others are saying it's one of the most overblown stories in the history of the league. 

 

Just a hypothetical question anyway. I doubt Manning would share an opinion even if he has a strong one. It would be interesting if someone like him were to come out with an unpopular stance on the topic.