Patriots being investigated for Deflating footballs.....(Mega Merge)

[BlacknGold77]

So...

Where are all the Pats fans now???

Breaking down Seattle.

You guys enjoy your little * of hate

[dynasty13]

lots off playing stupid too...

And as I said last night...why is one side more right than the other? Right now neither side knows any more than the other, but one side is automatically right?

[Shane Bond]

This is such a feast

[RockThatBlue]

Bellichick could eat a live kitten on national TV and pats fans would be claiming there's no evidence that bellichick just ate a cat.

[jvan1973]

And as I said last night...why is one side more right than the other? Right now neither side knows any more than the other, but one side is automatically right?

two sets of footballs pass pregame inspection, one set fails at halftime. You don't need to be Columbo to figure out deception is afoot

[dynasty13]

Bellichick could eat a live kitten on national TV and pats fans would be claiming there's no evidence that bellichick just ate a cat.

And he could run into a burning building and rescue a grandmother and her 12 cats from the top floor and haters would say he was the one that set the fire in the first place.

[weslo1812]

yes he does and he will tell us shortly ... but I don't know.

But he didnt!!! Probably because he'd gladly lie to save himself fir rightnow and his opportunity to play in the SuperBowl. But things don't add up here at all for the Patriots!!! 11 of 12 balls underinflated by 15%. All were inspected properly and met standards before game. And if you wanted to say the refs didn't inspect the balls properly okay... but how would they MESS UP on 11 balls!!! Not to mention all the Colts Balls were fine and within standards. So they obviously inspected those right. But they would mess up on on 11 of the 12 Pats balls.... ummm hmmm... I think NOT!!! And a 15% underinflation on 11 of 12 balls is not by weather which not horrible Anyways. And if it was, would not the Colts balls have been underinflated, at least 1 or 2? All balls after inspection were in the PATRIOTS posession. So whether on not HOW they did it us known yet... it looks pretty obvious just by these things someone somehow on the Patriots took air out the balls!!! And at a minimal 1 person has to have knowledge of this taking place. But most likely the truth is being witheld to keep from the possibility of anyone missing the Superbowl. Dishonesty is okay if it benifits ya I guess... that's what I get a strong feeling is happening here.

I know as Colts fan though I'd much rather take the bad loss knowing my team played with integrity and BY THE RULES!!! Than have a bad cloud like this hanging over my team and organization, bringing up much question about the integrity and honesty if the organization and team. AND it's not the first time either which makes it even worse. I'll take a team and organization that plays a bad game but has INTEGRITY and PLAYS BY THE RULES any day over what the Pats have!! Just me though.

[da_pats_troll]

Bellichick could eat a live kitten on national TV and pats fans would be claiming there's no evidence that bellichick just ate a cat.

 

Of course..its a kitten. Its not a cat until it grows up..dur.

 

(I jest! I jest!!)

[mintor]

Of course..its a kitten. Its not a cat until it grows up..dur.

 

(I jest! I jest!!)

 

[da_pats_troll]

two sets of footballs pass pregame inspection, one set fails at halftime. You don't need to be Columbo to figure out deception is afoot

 

NFL.com is now reporting that the pats were playing with the colts balls in the 2nd quarter.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462315/article/colts-dqwell-jackson-i-didnt-know-football-had-less-pressure

 

"Jackson does, however, recall one interesting moment during the first half that has something to do with the latest controversy. He recalls, during a television timeout, there was an especially long delay that prompted him to approach an official.

 

 

The game official mentioned something about their efforts to locate a usable football. Shortly after, Jackson noticed that the Patriots were using the Colts' footballs late in the first half. Jackson said it was odd to him that New England couldn't find a football to use, especially in the AFC Championship Game"

 

This just gets weirder and weirder.

[PrincetonTiger]

NFL.com is now reporting that the pats were playing with the colts balls in the 2nd quarter.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462315/article/colts-dqwell-jackson-i-didnt-know-football-had-less-pressure

 

"Jackson does, however, recall one interesting moment during the first half that has something to do with the latest controversy. He recalls, during a television timeout, there was an especially long delay that prompted him to approach an official.

 

 

The game official mentioned something about their efforts to locate a usable football. Shortly after, Jackson noticed that the Patriots were using the Colts' footballs late in the first half. Jackson said it was odd to him that New England couldn't find a football to use, especially in the AFC Championship Game"

 

This just gets weirder and weirder.

It is beginning to sound like a High School or Small College Game

[da_pats_troll]

It is beginning to sound like a High School or Small College Game

 

It is. The league office needed to get ahead of this long ago. 

[buccolts]

What happens if they are found guilty, and then suspensions are handed down... will you then leave the forum for the duration of those suspensions?

Why would they need to?

Though they may want to after this fiasco.

They're fans just like us.

If this were a Colts issue, there would be plenty of Colts fans trying to defend.

 

Truth is, unless there are hefty penalties, non-Pats fans will feel an injustice was done, when the only fact will be that we all never felt we heard the truth.

 

Right now, yes, I feel they're guilty, but I've been surprised before, and don't hold their fans at fault regardless.

O.K., some are easier to take than others, but I can say that about our side of the ball also.

[DougDew]

And he could run into a burning building and rescue a grandmother and her 12 cats from the top floor and haters would say he was the one that set the fire in the first place.

Why do you choose to think that people hate him first...then find something wrong?

 

You DO realize don't you, that people hate him because he cheats.  Why do you think people hate him?

[PrincetonTiger]

Why would they need to?

Though they may want to after this fiasco.

They're fans just like us.

If this were a Colts issue, there would be plenty of Colts fans trying to defend.

 

Truth is, unless there are hefty penalties, non-Pats fans will geel an injustice was done, when the only fact will be that we all never felt we heard the truth.

 

Right now, yes, I feel they're guilty, but I've been surprised before, and don't hold their fans at fault regardless.

O.K., some are easier to take than others, but I can say that about our side of the ball also.

there will also be a decline in fandom across the league

[Vance]

Jeezus 76 pages?

[buccolts]

there will also be a decline in fandom across the league

 

Yeah, I'm pretty certain of this, and if it's perceived that the Pats got away with something, it'll be worse than it needs to be.

[PrincetonTiger]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain of this, and if it's perceived that the Pats got away with something, it'll be worse than it needs to be.

Agreed

[hawkeyes]

The Patriots should be disbanded and removed from the NFL all together! They do NOT understand what sport and competition means!
 

The bolded might be a tad harsh, but the NFL does need to clamp down on this type of behavior.

Under normal circumstances it might be a bit harsh, but these are not normal circumstances! The Patriot organization has shown a willingness to cheat not once not twice heck the not so gullible masses figure its likely been for years and getting away with it.   Sorry but cheaters are deserving of one thing and one thing only - disqualification!

Strike three you are out ... do you think another team is going to be eager cheat again if ever if they know what the consequence is?

What will a pocket change fine or a few games suspended do? NOTHING - the cheating will continue by the Pats & by other teams!

 

You want to solve this issue - the Pats are dissolved effective immediately ... there will be no SB this year!

 

The precedent has been set - ignorance is not an excuse!

 

Sorry NE fans - pick another team yours no longer exist!

[da_pats_troll]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain of this, and if it's perceived that the Pats got away with something, it'll be worse than it needs to be.

 

As a pats fan, I thinks thats what bothers me the most. If they did this, and get some punishment, then fine, we'll take our lumps and still be pats fans. On the small chance the NFL does nothing, the "average" fan will still remember the accusation, and not the outcome. Its the nature of the media beast.

 

I hate to bring up the reported taping of the Rams practice, cause I will get hammered for it, but its a case in point. The accusation was withdrawn by the newspaper that reported it, and nothing was ever found to support that accusation (i'm not saying it happened or didnt happen, just the series of events). They were never punished for that, yet the media continues to state it as if it happened. 

 

That kind of reporting does not benefit the league in general at all. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Couldn't tell you...but I do find it very odd that whoever is leading the NFLs investigation hasn't thought to even contact Tom yet...

 

Not necessarily.  Troy Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president for football operations, is in charge of the investigation.  He might want to investigate all other teams, and its members first, then go to the Pats organization and interview equipment personnel before talking to Brady and Belichick.  If nothing for the reason if they uncover something, they give a chance for BB and /or TB to come clean in private, despite any public declarations. Doing so reduces the punitive action, I'm sure.  If they don't come clean, and stick by their public record and there is evidence contrary, there will be severe repercussions.

 

We just don't know which way the wind is blowing on this yet...

[da_pats_troll]

Not necessarily.  Troy Vincent, the NFL's executive vice president for football operations, is in charge of the investigation.  He might want to investigate all other teams, and its members first, then go to the Pats organization and interview equipment personnel before talking to Brady and Belichick.  If nothing for the reason if they uncover something, they give a chance for BB and /or TB to come clean in private, despite any public declarations. Doing so reduces the punitive action, I'm sure.  If they don't come clean, and stick by their public record and their is evidence contrary, there will be severe repercussions.

 

We just don't know which way the wind is blowing on this yet...

 

Thats a good an interesting point. I would speculate that there are some back channel communications between the team and the league on this, and the league probably knew the basic content of what both BB and TB were going to say at the podium. The league would have to be totally *ic to let them go do that if they had any hard evidence, or were leaning toward lowering the boom. 

 

Just to make things look better for everyone, wouldn't it be wise to give them a heads up that denials may not be the best course of action for everyone involved?

 

But what do I know. Its the NFL.

[mintor]

nfl all about show me the money. fans are last.

[buccolts]

As a pats fan, I thinks thats what bothers me the most. If they did this, and get some punishment, then fine, we'll take our lumps and still be pats fans. On the small chance the NFL does nothing, the "average" fan will still remember the accusation, and not the outcome. Its the nature of the media beast.

 

I hate to bring up the reported taping of the Rams practice, cause I will get hammered for it, but its a case in point. The accusation was withdrawn by the newspaper that reported it, and nothing was ever found to support that accusation (i'm not saying it happened or didnt happen, just the series of events). They were never punished for that, yet the media continues to state it as if it happened. 

 

That kind of reporting does not benefit the league in general at all. 

Tried to like it, but ran out.

 

 

A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

[PrincetonTiger]

As a pats fan, I thinks thats what bothers me the most. If they did this, and get some punishment, then fine, we'll take our lumps and still be pats fans. On the small chance the NFL does nothing, the "average" fan will still remember the accusation, and not the outcome. Its the nature of the media beast.

 

I hate to bring up the reported taping of the Rams practice, cause I will get hammered for it, but its a case in point. The accusation was withdrawn by the newspaper that reported it, and nothing was ever found to support that accusation (i'm not saying it happened or didnt happen, just the series of events). They were never punished for that, yet the media continues to state it as if it happened. 

 

That kind of reporting does not benefit the league in general at all.

Agreed

I will repeat what I said yesterday

This will stay with the franchise for awhile and the Patriots could become a NFL Pariah ala the Raiders because of their "Outlaw" era

[Yehoodi]

I know what Dan Blandino said, and it was something that wasn't in the rule book.  So you tell me what rule he was referencing - you can't because it doesn't say anything baout what is and is not an alteration.  He didn't reference any rule.  At best he clarified what he thought was an alteration.  And as I have said before, Blandino's quote does absolutely nothing to prove that (a) the Vikings and Panthers knowingly cheated, and (b) did something expressly prohibited by the NFL rulebook.  The best you can say under either the rulebook or the game operations manual is that you cannot "alter" the football.  So until you cna tell me where in the rule book or operations manual it says you can't keep the the footballs warm with a heater, the rule you cited before from the operations manual is subject to debate on what is an alteration.  All Blandino did was go over to the sideliens and say that you couldn't do that, but under all the rules you cite, nothing would have told either tema that what they were doing was in complete contradiction to the rules game ops manual. 

 

The Patriots, on the other hand was clearly in violation of the rulebook and the intent element with what hte Pats did is on a completely different level.  They knew what the PSI should have been, and they weighed them in at the correct PSI and then deflated them.  The best you can say about the intennt of the Vikings/Panthers was that neither of them could have possibly known under the rules whether keeping the balls warm with ah eater was against hte rules, so they went ahead and did it until they were told otherwise.  If you can't grasp that, there's nothing I can say to you.  You want to put what the Pats did on the same level as the Vikings/Panthers, fine.  They aren't even in the same ballpark and it takes a complete stretch in logic to get to that conclusion.

 

 

Are you saying what the Vikings/Panthers did was legal?  If not, then there has to be a rule preventing what they did otherwise its legal and can be done by the teams.  I don't care whether or not they were innocent violators of a rule or not, that is not an issue for me.  What I am trying to get out of you is what rule do you think gave refs the authority to stop the Vikings/Panthers. 

 

 

The rule that I think applies reads in pertinent part:

 

 "Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers, ball boys, and coaches, is allowed to alter the footballs in any way.”

 

In the game in question and in regards to footballs that have left the locker room Dean B. said

 

"You can't do anything with the footballs in terms of any artificial, whether you're heating them up, whether it's a regular game ball or kicking ball, you can't do anything to the football,"

 

Now for me, given the way he phrased his statement he is referencing the rule that I sited.  You apparently do not think the stated reference by him in regards to what is not legal is citing that rule but some other rule floating around. 

 

For me “alter” and “do anything to” mean the same thing (i.e. making a change to) and thus the reason why I think he is referencing that rule that I sited and gave him the authority to say what the Vikings/Panthers did was prohibited.    But if you do not think so, then please provide me with the rule, a link and text of that rule, and an explanation of why the rule you choose gave Dean B the authority to say what he said and in the manner that he phrased it.

 

And again, I do not care about the Pats game, I am only asking you what rule you think gave Dean  B. the authority to say what he did in the manner that he did to state why what the Vikings and Panthers did violated a NFL rule.  Now upon your request I provided a rule and I am asking you to do the same.  Fair enough?

 

And again saying my rule does not apply aint going to cut, this time you have to come up with the rule you think applies to allowed Dean B. to say what happened in the Vikings/Panthers game is prohibited by the NFL and explain why it applies.

[da_pats_troll]

Agreed

I will repeat what I said yesterday

This will stay with the franchise for awhile and the Patriots could become a NFL Pariah ala the Raiders because of their "Outlaw" era

 

When Brady and BB eventually leave, we may ~play~ like the Raiders too

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thats a good an interesting point. I would speculate that there are some back channel communications between the team and the league on this, and the league probably knew the basic content of what both BB and TB were going to say at the podium. The league would have to be totally *ic to let them go do that if they had any hard evidence, or were leaning toward lowering the boom. 

 

Just to make things look better for everyone, wouldn't it be wise to give them a heads up that denials may not be the best course of action for everyone involved?

 

But what do I know. Its the NFL.

 

Makes sense, but if investigation is not complete, something might be uncovered, at which point it does not agree with the public record.  NFL could still give  BB and/or TB to come clean at that point with reduced penalty, I would think.

[GoColts8818]

I think the Pats are setting this up to blame the equipment managers or ball boy.  It's going to come down to will one of them talk.   

 

I think in the court of public opinion the Pats are guilty as sin and for a lot of people that's not going to change.  With that said that doesn't mean that's how the league is going to rule.  I am okay with the league taking their time on this as I think they have to get this right.  I'd rather them take their time and get it right than rush to judgment on this just to make it go away. 

[da_pats_troll]

Makes sense, but if investigation is not complete, something might be uncovered, at which point it does not agree with the public record.  NFL could still give  BB and/or TB to come clean at that point with reduced penalty, I would think.

 

Agree 99% . Except for the "public record" bit. There has been so much reporting, misreporting, over-reporting..I dont know if I can quantify what the public record is at this moment. 

[hawkeyes]

I think the Pats are setting this up to blame the equipment managers or ball boy.  It's going to come down to will one of them talk.   

 

I think in the court of public opinion the Pats are guilty as sin and for a lot of people that's not going to change.  With that said that doesn't mean that's how the league is going to rule.  I am okay with the league taking their time on this as I think they have to get this right.  I'd rather them take their time and get it right than rush to judgment on this just to make it go away. 

 

Ball boy here is 10 million dollars all you need to do is go public saying you did it all on your own and no one else knew .... LOL!

 

Nahhhh we already know that just doesn't wash!

 

Brady who knows enough about the weight to know he likes it exactly 12.5 PSI would have known the second he felt a ball at 10.5 PSI!

[ricker182]

Looks like they're going to wait until after the SB to hand down any suspensions/fines.  

  

I trust this will be like the Ray Rice situation.

[Dr. Guildo]

Looks like they're going to wait until after the SB to hand down any suspensions/fines.  

  

I trust this will be like the Ray Rice situation.

They have already failed to interview people who are in the know whether they denied it, or not. So the NFL has made a mess of the incident like the Ray Rice deal... but will most likely not make the same mistake of penalizing them twice.

[Blue Horse]

So Billychick can use lip readers to steal plays, and this time he looks the other way at the saggy balls.

 

Shady Brady snickers about it all on his way to Az.  And the Commish, well, he's still too busy cleaning the Rice off his face to think straight.

 

Is this how an excellent football team conducts itself? Apparently things like integrity and honor and love of the game don't mean much in in NE's world..

That's the sad part of this whole disgusting fiasco.

 

I've never liked dirty football or cheap hits.  And it kinda seems to me that Shady Brady didn't have enough faith in his own guys if he had to play with under-inflated balls. 

 

I'm proud to be a Colts fan even if I'll probably never really forgive Irsay for letting Peyton go the way he did. 

 

Colts have come pretty far under Andrew Luck and Chuck Pagano and once a running game gets going, and the O Line tightens up with its protection and the Def closes the holes the opponents keep finding, we're gonna be formidable instead of "just a good football team that makes the playoffs." 

 

COLTS STRONG...TRUE BLUE! 

[Coltsince4]

http://forums.colts.com/gallery/image/2468-i-can-not-tell-a-lie/

[Yehoodi]

But if you keep them at the temp that they were originally inflated at, this is not altering.  Its maintaining the balls current form.  Not sure how this is being missed.  By your argument, taking them outside and having them cool down is tampering.  But you so kindly skip over that and jump to warming them back up.  Many people argue about the "Spirit of the rule".  He can point to that rule and clarify that is what the rule meant.  But the intial argument for the teams is the definition of the word "Alter" and how it is interpreted.  They both are referring to the same rule that can be argued on the technicality and interpretation of the wording.  Once the ref clarified it, they stopped it. 

 

I think we need to step back for a moment and understand the genesis of what we are dealing with; and that is, that each team is required to play with the same ball.  Or put it another way one team does not get to have a ball that is different and easier to play with than the opponent.   That is pretty much clear and something that the fans and the NFL want to ensure fair play between the teams.    In one phase you want the ball to be the same on both sides at the start of the game and in another phase you want the balls to be the same on both sides throughout the game, therefore there is a continuum from the beginning of the game to the end of the game were both sides are similarly situation with respect to the condition and make up of the ball.  One then needs to draft rules to ensure this continuum of the teams being similarly situated from start to finish.

 

For me the rule that deals with the initial ball is the Rule Book, Rule 2 I believe.

 

For me the rule that ensures the continuum from start to finished of the teams being similarly situated is the rule I referenced.

 

Sure the initial rule sets forth the material, size, weight, and inflation but did not prohibit anything else or anything in game.  So that rule does not prevent a team from adding stickum, freezing the ball, heating the ball, drying the ball to bone dry, dipping it in water and so on.

 

The Rules manual takes care of the time from the start of the game to the finish.  And the best way to make sure that the balls stay in the same state on both sides of the field (and thus the fairness I speak of) is to the tell the team hands off the ball and let them run whatever coarse they run as the game progresses.   Again, the only exception is the drying off of excess water which is done by the refs 90% of the time with a towel.

 

In order to be able to prevent the teams from doing this you have to institute a rule preventing this, otherwise they can do it.

 

For me, and as I stated in post 3037, the rule I stated covers this point and is all encompassing to cover anything that can be done, well specifically, has the "hands off" language.   And no I do not think that it is a "spirit of the rule" argument as the rule clearly states on is face the hands off language. 

 

Now when someone, like the refs and Dean B. in the Vikings game, want to prohibit someone from doing something they will cite a rule.  And when there are explaining why something is prohibited they will either cite the rule verbatim or paraphrase the rule, which is what Dean B. did in this case in my opinion. 

 

For me the word "alter" and "do anything to" mean the same thing (i.e. making a change to) and therefore Dean B. referenced the rule I cited.  Also, the words "alter the football in anyway" is the hands off language that I mentioned.  Basicly the rule prohibits the teams from doing anything to the ball thereby allowing the ball the run its natural coarse throughout the game and thus ensuring that both sides will be similarly situation with respect to their footballs.

 

  

[HOZER]

And as I said last night...why is one side more right than the other? Right now neither side knows any more than the other, but one side is automatically right?

Because one side has an admitted history of cheating, and one does not. Once cheaters, always cheaters. I hope the Seahawks stomp the living ___out of the *'s....... I probably won't be watching the game either, but I hope the Seahawks fans far outnumber the *'s fans and chant "CHEATERS! CHEATERS! CHEATERS!" The entire time the *'s offense is on the field, that would be great!!!!

[dynasty13]

Because one side has an admitted history of cheating, and one does not. Once cheaters, always cheaters. I hope the Seahawks stomp the living ___out of the *'s....... I probably won't be watching the game either, but I hope the Seahawks fans far outnumber the *'s fans and chant "CHEATERS! CHEATERS! CHEATERS!" The entire time the *'s offense is on the field, that would be great!!!!

Except that I'm talking about us as fans. OUR opinions. The opinions of fans do not fall under the 'they don't get the benefit of the doubt because they have a history of this' claim that many are pulling out. That applies to the team and those involved only.

I'm wondering why the opinion of a Colts fan, or a Steelers fan, or a Ravens fan for example...has any more legitimacy than my opinion. 'I' didn't do anything wrong...'I' dont have a history of cheating. Why is MY opinion not as legitimate as any other fans at this point of the investigation?

[ricker182]

The only way the Patriots will learn is of they're disqualified.

But I don't want the Colts playing in the big game (I don't think they earned it).

I'd be happy to see Packers vs Seahawks again. Best 2 out of 3. Or even the Ravens vs Seahawks.

I know it won't happen but maybe something drastic should happen to deter any team from cheating again.

[bababooey]

I think we need to step back for a moment and understand the genesis of what we are dealing with; and that is, that each team is required to play with the same ball. Or put it another way one team does not get to have a ball that is different and easier to play with than the opponent. That is pretty much clear and something that the fans and the NFL want to ensure fair play between the teams. In one phase you want the ball to be the same on both sides at the start of the game and in another phase you want the balls to be the same on both sides throughout the game, therefore there is a continuum from the beginning of the game to the end of the game were both sides are similarly situation with respect to the condition and make up of the ball. One then needs to draft rules to ensure this continuum of the teams being similarly situated from start to finish.

For me the rule that deals with the initial ball is the Rule Book, Rule 2 I believe.

For me the rule that ensures the continuum from start to finished of the teams being similarly situated is the rule I referenced.

Sure the initial rule sets forth the material, size, weight, and inflation but did not prohibit anything else or anything in game. So that rule does not prevent a team from adding stickum, freezing the ball, heating the ball, drying the ball to bone dry, dipping it in water and so on.

The Rules manual takes care of the time from the start of the game to the finish. And the best way to make sure that the balls stay in the same state on both sides of the field (and thus the fairness I speak of) is to the tell the team hands off the ball and let them run whatever coarse they run as the game progresses. Again, the only exception is the drying off of excess water which is done by the refs 90% of the time with a towel.

In order to be able to prevent the teams from doing this you have to institute a rule preventing this, otherwise they can do it.

For me, and as I stated in post 3037, the rule I stated covers this point and is all encompassing to cover anything that can be done, well specifically, has the "hands off" language. And no I do not think that it is a "spirit of the rule" argument as the rule clearly states on is face the hands off language.

Now when someone, like the refs and Dean B. in the Vikings game, want to prohibit someone from doing something they will cite a rule. And when there are explaining why something is prohibited they will either cite the rule verbatim or paraphrase the rule, which is what Dean B. did in this case in my opinion.

For me the word "alter" and "do anything to" mean the same thing (i.e. making a change to) and therefore Dean B. referenced the rule I cited. Also, the words "alter the football in anyway" is the hands off language that I mentioned. Basicly the rule prohibits the teams from doing anything to the ball thereby allowing the ball the run its natural coarse throughout the game and thus ensuring that both sides will be similarly situation with respect to their footballs.

I'm sorry but everything you post is just about as long as this and I'm pretty sure most people are just skipping over your posts because of it.