Football talk

[Superman]

If the o-line problems go ignored another year i will be seriously *. 

 

Also, Newsome/Mathis/Walden + another guy through draft/fa could be a pretty solid OLB corps. 

 

The line problems haven't been ignored. Just haven't been fixed. The team has actually spent a lot of resources on the line. The results just aren't there.

[COLTSFAN12to13]

The line problems haven't been ignored. Just haven't been fixed. The team has actually spent a lot of resources on the line. The results just aren't there.

 

Its just patchwork though, Superman. We need to sign a stud RG. What will we do with Cherilus??

[Superman]

Its just patchwork though, Superman. We need to sign a stud RG. What will we do with Cherilus??

 

I don't know what you mean. We drafted two linemen and signed two linemen in 2013, then drafted another lineman in 2014.  The problem is that the acquisitions haven't had the impact we expected them to, for various reasons.

 

I'd be okay with drafting a top notch guard, but the situation with Cherilus makes it a tough situation to handle.

[COLTSFAN12to13]

I don't know what you mean. We drafted two linemen and signed two linemen in 2013, then drafted another lineman in 2014.  The problem is that the acquisitions haven't had the impact we expected them to, for various reasons.

 

I'd be okay with drafting a top notch guard, but the situation with Cherilus makes it a tough situation to handle.

 

I mean we never seem to acquire studs. All we do is hope and pray that guys like Hugh Thornton or Donald Thomas would pan out. They didn't, and it screwed us. 

[Superman]

I mean we never seem to acquire studs. All we do is hope and pray that guys like Hugh Thornton or Donald Thomas would pan out. They didn't, and it screwed us. 

 

Almost every good offensive line in the league was built through the draft. Guys like Hugh Thornton, drafted in the third round, are critical to building a good line. Donald Thomas was a good linemen, but can't stay on the field. I understand that it's not an overnight thing, but I'm tired of hitting a brick wall every season with the line.

[COLTSFAN12to13]

Almost every good offensive line in the league was built through the draft. Guys like Hugh Thornton, drafted in the third round, are critical to building a good line. Donald Thomas was a good linemen, but can't stay on the field. I understand that it's not an overnight thing, but I'm tired of hitting a brick wall every season with the line.

 

I'm with you, bud. I just want a shored up o-line, man. I've been hoping for three years. 

 

Any RGs/RTs we could pick in round 1??

 

What happens to Cherilus, guys? 

[Superman]

I'm with you, bud. I just want a shored up o-line, man. I've been hoping for three years. 

 

Any RGs/RTs we could pick in round 1??

 

What happens to Cherilus, guys? 

 

I'm ready to cut Cherilus. Problem is we have to replace him. I think there are plenty of good linemen in this draft.

[esmort]

I'm ready to cut Cherilus. Problem is we have to replace him. I think there are plenty of good linemen in this draft.

 

You don't think his decline in play is a result of his injury?  Would you be on-board with bringing Cherilus back for 1 more year and drafting a tackle that could be kicked inside to RG for one year and move out to tackle his 2nd year(cutting Cherilus) if they determine Cherilus' injury will not be a problem next season ... or you would prefer to just cut Cherilus and be done with him now?

[SteelCityColt]

I'm ready to cut Cherilus. Problem is we have to replace him. I think there are plenty of good linemen in this draft.

 

If we cut him next year isn't it quite a hit on the old dead money front? 

[AntonMcG]

If we cut him next year isn't it quite a hit on the old dead money front? 

 

I believe he has a very cut-friendly contract in place from this year onwards.

 

I believe Cherilus could be reasonably good with a solid RG beside him.

[SteelCityColt]

I believe he has a very cut-friendly contract in place from this year onwards.

 

I believe Cherilus could be reasonably good with a solid RG beside him.

 

Not sure it's that cap friendly next year to cut him:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/gosder-cherilus/

 

I suppose though you could mess around a bit with the June 1 designation? A healthy Cherilus with a decent RG besides him I think would look a lot different to what we've seen this season. 

[AntonMcG]

Not sure it's that cap friendly next year to cut him:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/gosder-cherilus/

 

I suppose though you could mess around a bit with the June 1 designation? A healthy Cherilus with a decent RG besides him I think would look a lot different to what we've seen this season. 

 

Hmmm... I may have been mistaken, Cherilus might have been the only big contract the Grigson handed out that was not 'cut friendly'. Anyway... there are worse RTs out there, he was not the problem in 2013 but was very poor this year.

 

I am not a fan of our blocking-scheme, but it we are to stick with Gilbert, we need to invest in a few maulers at C and RG. Pass protection will improve as a result of a productive run game.

[amfootball]

Great thread. First, congrats to the Colts on their season. It was great to have Pats/Colts in AFCCG again.

 

In terms of the game, was wondering what people thought of Davis on Gronk. I thought that was a great coaching move as Gronk was really shut down. What seemed to be an issue was covering Edelman or Vareen out in the flat. They were wide open. I was surprised as the Colts had done a great job taking those plays away from Denver. Any insight there would be appreciated.

 

I really loved Revis on Moncrief as he is a great deep threat and was nullified. Much better game from Browner too. Not sure if he was on Fleener a lot but Fleener had a big game the last time.

 

Arrington maybe played the game of his life on TY. Any insights on why Arrington is able to handle him so well? He is maybe our 4th or 5th DB. I know he had safety help but Arrington really blanketed him.

 

It seemed the Colts had real issues with the Pats formations. Not just the trick ones but normal formations as well. Pagano admitted at half that their defense as confused a lot. What do you think was the reason for this? Match ups?

[Cynjin]

Great thread. First, congrats to the Colts on their season. It was great to have Pats/Colts in AFCCG again.

 

In terms of the game, was wondering what people thought of Davis on Gronk. I thought that was a great coaching move as Gronk was really shut down. What seemed to be an issue was covering Edelman or Vareen out in the flat. They were wide open. I was surprised as the Colts had done a great job taking those plays away from Denver. Any insight there would be appreciated.

 

I really loved Revis on Moncrief as he is a great deep threat and was nullified. Much better game from Browner too. Not sure if he was on Fleener a lot but Fleener had a big game the last time.

 

Arrington maybe played the game of his life on TY. Any insights on why Arrington is able to handle him so well? He is maybe our 4th or 5th DB. I know he had safety help but Arrington really blanketed him.

 

It seemed the Colts had real issues with the Pats formations. Not just the trick ones but normal formations as well. Pagano admitted at half that their defense as confused a lot. What do you think was the reason for this? Match ups?

 

Congrats to the Patriots AM, they were by far the better team.

[OffensivelyPC]

It just feels as though we have too many positions to improve.  Going into our 4th year, I feel like we shouldn't be saying that we have to fix the entire middle of the defense and offensive line to the extent we do.  I mean, with all that we need, unless we basically hit on every free agent sign and draft pick, we're looking at two more offseasons.  Landry has been terrible, Adams is getting older, ILB, Chapman has had hsi moments but isn't the anchor we need in the middle of the line, and Redding is also getting older.  Then we have the center and right side of the OL and in need of another WR to round out the offense. 

 

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of the Colts FO, but I still feel as though we should be closer than where we are, but this loss was an embarrassment.  To me, if I had to prioritize, I'd start with the big uglies.  we just haven't done well, generally speaking with putting together a solid reliable OL/DL. 

[antipatriot]

This place can be a dumpster after a big loss like this. I'm as irritated as anyone else, but I come here to talk football, not put up with melodrama.

 

So this thread is for people who want to talk football. Not for "fire XYZ," not for "this player is trash and needs to go," not for "we're wasting Luck's career"... 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) We're too light in the pants to hold up to New England's power run game, especially when they go double strong. We do a poor job of anchoring the line, the backers get washed out and can't make tackles, and then the back end gets worn down. It starts up front. Until we can control the line and make stops at first contact, we won't be consistent against the run. 

 

2) Our pass defense is terrible in the middle of the field. The Pats played off of that with the crossing patterns, knowing we'd fall back to protect the middle. All that short stuff outside is a function of not being able to cover the middle. We have to get better in the middle. DJackson has his strengths, but pass coverage isn't one of them. Landry really doesn't have any strengths. These first two points add up to the conclusion that we have to get better up the middle of the field. Sadly, that was the problem last season. We were slightly better at times this year, but not really.

 

3) The offensive line is a mess, from center to right tackle. Until the line can bully defenses in the ground game and consistently protect Luck the offense will have its struggles. We have to do something at RG and RT. And I think if there's any coaching spot that requires close scrutiny and probably a change, it's the line coach. 

 

4) Throughout the offseason, we expected the receiving corps to be a strength. Nicks didn't pay off; Reggie got hurt; two of the most promising young guys blew their chances. It's just Hilton and Moncrief. Our receivers combined for two catches in the biggest game of the year. If this is it for Reggie, he sadly goes out with a pitiable whimper. We need to get better and deeper at receiver. I know people are going to raise a fuss when we draft a receiver this year. Please don't. It's a huge need.

 

5) I have been torn on whether to prioritize Fleener or Allen. We need both. Re-sign them. That position is a strength of this team.

 

6) Cribbs has to go. This game shows why we had Whalen returning earlier this year. He got pulled off the job after he started getting careless. We need a responsible weapon at returner.

 

7) We still have a great situation at QB. Luck took some serious steps forward this season, and is clearly the bedrock upon which this team will be built. 

 

8) The corners are another strength. With better safety/ILB play, and a better pass rush, they will be dominant in 2015.

 

9) This team is still on its way up. This result sucks, but again, perspective. If the team attacks hard and gets its weaknesses shored up -- we have cap space, we have a full complement of draft picks, and we have a destination for free agents -- we can climb another rung on the ladder. We had an ideal path to the AFCCG this year. Go hard, and we can be favorites for a spot in this game next season, and be just as strong a candidate as any other AFC team to go to the Super Bowl.

 

GO COLTS!!!

I like your post thoughtful and I agree with pretty much all you have said.  Just feels like ground hog day right now

 

If it comes to a choice between Allen and Fleener I take Fleener

 

I think we will draft a receiver because well we need a receiver, contrary to sentiment on this forum T.Y is not a true #1 he needs a number one to take some coverage.

 

This might come off as something you didnt want in this post however I do believe we have been outcoached in every facet every time we have played the Pats since Luck has been here.  Now that isnt the end of the world as most teams get out coached by the Pats.  My point I guess is I think everytime should give a minimum of 3 years to an HC given Paganos first year I think we go another year and see what happens however if we end the same I think we have to at least think about a change.

 

I am hoping we can pick up a solid RB in the late rounds of the draft and use our earlier picks on a receiver and to either address our safety issues and or our lines.

 

Anyway it has been another great season cheering on our team, we have what will be the best QB in the league and I think we are building in the right direction.

 

Great post superman

 

GO COLTS

[NagelHausForge]

Well... heckuva season really.  Lots of things to work on but still there was a lot of positives to come out that the team can build on.

 

As far as last night, I think the Colts game plan was a big mistake.  Granted they got down quick but they abandoned the run almost totally when they were only down by 7 or 10 and the Pats were pretty much daring them to run it being in their 3 DB set.  I would have liked to see the Colts run it more and use play action. 

 

Also, it seemed Luck was missing his receivers a lot, either high or behind, which is probably due to his nerves.  Didn't seem like he was comfortable at all in the pocket last night, even when he was getting protection. 

 

The Colts failed to use TY in his move effective roll and that was quick slants over the middle where he can use his speed to get separation.

 

Our WRs/RBs had a case of the dropsies again and that absolutely killed more than 1 drive.  Boom, Nicks and Moncrief all had drops that could have been big.

 

O-line started off pretty well but you could see the frustration building and they crumbled as time went on.  Not surprising really.

 

On Defense... Not much good here really from last night.  The middle was wide open and they had no answer for it. 

 

The running game was mauling our D and it seemed the sure tackling we had last week just wasnt there.  They were playing like they were afraid to tackle the RBs.

 

All in all it seems the Colts let  the Pats get into their heads and intimidate them.  Once they were down by 17 you could see the energy leave the team and it just steamrolled from there.

 

Lots of good things to build off of as a whole but there certainly need to be changes made in the offseason.  Whether thats personnel, coordinators or both.  I don't see a whole sale purge being necessary but if I am Irsay and my team was blown out 4 times this year in pretty much the same fashion I am going to be asking why and who can I get to sure that aspect up?

[teganslaw]

The Colts need a solid RB; that goes without saying. Herron and Tipton are just beginning and have a ways to go yet. Luck seemed nervous. He rushed passes, and just couldn't get comfortable. Some of them should have been caught, but something was off. The team was frustrated, and it affected their playing. After they were down by 10 points, it was the end, and they had no energy. I think it will be  a few more years before they are Super bowl bound. In the meantime, they came quite close. I don't think anyone expected them to even get that far, thinking instead that it should have been Denver.

[Defjamz26]

Not sure how you cut Cherilus. You're not going to find a guy year 1 who's going to come in and be better than Cherilus. Brandon Scherff is the consensus best lineman by most analysts but even he is a guy who people think will have to play guard first. Speaking of which we need a RG as well.

 

The Line on defense is possibly more important though. We basically have a bunch of big guys who aren't good at anything. Notably Chapman. I really like Malcolm Brown or Danny Shelton in the 1st if they're there. Instant upgrade. At DE we need more athleticism, not just big bodies. Michael Bennett and maybe Armstead.

[Superman]

You don't think his decline in play is a result of his injury?  Would you be on-board with bringing Cherilus back for 1 more year and drafting a tackle that could be kicked inside to RG for one year and move out to tackle his 2nd year(cutting Cherilus) if they determine Cherilus' injury will not be a problem next season ... or you would prefer to just cut Cherilus and be done with him now?

 

I don't know that it matters why he's declined. Only that he's declined.

 

If I had any reasonable amount of assurance that he'd be healthy, I'd be okay with bringing him back for another year and doing just what you said with a young RT/G prospect. That's the preferable way to go. But he has a degenerative knee condition, on top of other ailments, and besides that, he's not all that great as a RT anyways. Solid pass pro, when healthy, but nothing in terms of run blocking. I'm just not optimistic that he'll be healthy. And by healthy, I mean, ready to play at a high level, not nursing various injuries and struggling to practice every week, etc. 

 

Edit: The only question is the cost to replace.

[Superman]

If we cut him next year isn't it quite a hit on the old dead money front? 

 

Yup. It's a total of $8.7m in dead money. We could stipulate him as a post-June 1 release, and take a $2.9m dead hit in 2015, and push the other $5.8m to 2016. 

 

And my thinking is that, if he comes back in 2015 and sucks, or can't stay on the field, and we pay him an extra $4m for that, it's just adding to the dead cap hit. So it goes from $8.7m to $12.7m. We don't benefit from postponing the release.

 

I've begun to look at cap space as a cumulative amount. Some look at 2015 and say "we have $40m in cap space," for instance. I'm thinking that, from now until 2017, we have $200m in cap space, based on what's on the books today (and assuming caps of $140m, $150m and $160m over the next three years). That includes all dead money for everyone, including Cherilus. If we don't pay him $4m next year, that goes up to $204m. So I'm okay with dead money. It's just accelerating what's already on the cap, but you're still saving cumulative cap in the longer term.

 

Long story short, to me, I don't think it's worth it to pay Cherilus an additional $4m when I don't believe he'll be a good player for us.

[Superman]

Great thread. First, congrats to the Colts on their season. It was great to have Pats/Colts in AFCCG again.

 

In terms of the game, was wondering what people thought of Davis on Gronk. I thought that was a great coaching move as Gronk was really shut down. What seemed to be an issue was covering Edelman or Vareen out in the flat. They were wide open. I was surprised as the Colts had done a great job taking those plays away from Denver. Any insight there would be appreciated.

 

I really loved Revis on Moncrief as he is a great deep threat and was nullified. Much better game from Browner too. Not sure if he was on Fleener a lot but Fleener had a big game the last time.

 

Arrington maybe played the game of his life on TY. Any insights on why Arrington is able to handle him so well? He is maybe our 4th or 5th DB. I know he had safety help but Arrington really blanketed him.

 

It seemed the Colts had real issues with the Pats formations. Not just the trick ones but normal formations as well. Pagano admitted at half that their defense as confused a lot. What do you think was the reason for this? Match ups?

 

Denver didn't run that stuff. And it's weird, because it's the old Indy stuff that Manning and Moore perfected. They know we're stressed over the middle, so they take advantage of us giving a slight cushion to avoid getting beat deep, and run a bunch of crossing stuff, knowing someone is going to be open somewhere. 

 

Revis is too savvy for Moncrief. No surprise there. Arrington wasn't great on Hilton, they just bracketed him. Good scheme, but one on one, I think Arrington would have been toast. He was free to be more aggressive, knowing he had a help defender within ten yards almost every play.

[SteelCityColt]

Yup. It's a total of $8.7m in dead money. We could stipulate him as a post-June 1 release, and take a $2.9m dead hit in 2015, and push the other $5.8m to 2016. 

 

And my thinking is that, if he comes back in 2015 and sucks, or can't stay on the field, and we pay him an extra $4m for that, it's just adding to the dead cap hit. So it goes from $8.7m to $12.7m. We don't benefit from postponing the release.

 

I've begun to look at cap space as a cumulative amount. Some look at 2015 and say "we have $40m in cap space," for instance. I'm thinking that, from now until 2017, we have $200m in cap space, based on what's on the books today (and assuming caps of $140m, $150m and $160m over the next three years). That includes all dead money for everyone, including Cherilus. If we don't pay him $4m next year, that goes up to $204m. So I'm okay with dead money. It's just accelerating what's already on the cap, but you're still saving cumulative cap in the longer term.

 

Long story short, to me, I don't think it's worth it to pay Cherilus an additional $4m when I don't believe he'll be a good player for us.

Good break down as ever. I guess when you put it like that it's worth the short term pain, though how would envisage replacing him, the draft?

[Superman]

It just feels as though we have too many positions to improve.  Going into our 4th year, I feel like we shouldn't be saying that we have to fix the entire middle of the defense and offensive line to the extent we do.  I mean, with all that we need, unless we basically hit on every free agent sign and draft pick, we're looking at two more offseasons.  Landry has been terrible, Adams is getting older, ILB, Chapman has had hsi moments but isn't the anchor we need in the middle of the line, and Redding is also getting older.  Then we have the center and right side of the OL and in need of another WR to round out the offense. 

 

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of the Colts FO, but I still feel as though we should be closer than where we are, but this loss was an embarrassment.  To me, if I had to prioritize, I'd start with the big uglies.  we just haven't done well, generally speaking with putting together a solid reliable OL/DL. 

 

Maybe I'm a fool, but I don't think the line is that far way. Thornton is very talented, but he's raw. Throwing him into a reserve/rotation role is going to be an advantage, depth wise. We need two players, really. One young guy, one vet who can perform at a high level. I get the frustration, as it always seems like we're two players away. But that's still just two players.

 

I also don't have a problem with the defensive line, overall. It's only against the Pats that they look this way. We could definitely use a difference maker up front. We have plenty of girth and size, but no one who stresses an offensive line with his ability to beat blockers and create disruption, no real consistent penetrator. Zach Kerr looked like a promising prospect, but I think he lost his legs and started playing sloppy. Regardless, I think there are draftable solutions there. And having a game changing edge rusher will help, also. Newsome will get better, and we get Mathis back (probably not 2013 Mathis, but still), and we can add to the rotation.

 

What hurts is that we have missed on a handful of draft picks, especially high picks. I think everyone in the building knows this, so I expect that to change. The 2014 draft was much better -- Mewhort, Moncrief and Newsome are long term building blocks, IMO -- but Werner isn't close to being worthy of a first rounder, Richardson is terrible, Thornton and Holmes are still around but not quite pulling their weight yet, and while it's great to have Davis, we're paying him like a top notch CB (which he deserves) when he represents a third year rookie who should be making less than $1m/year. 

 

So yeah, there's a lot to fix, but I wouldn't be surprised if 20 of the guys who are on the roster now aren't around next season. This is the time for a mini-overhaul, and to bring in some significant talent to round out the core. Luck, Hilton, Fleener, Allen, AC, Mewhort, Moncrief, Davis, Jones, Toler, Newsome -- those are the guys. No ILBs, no RBs, no safeties, only one DL, one pass rusher... Our core needs a couple /three game changers. Everyone else can fill in and round out the roster.

[Dustin]

It just feels as though we have too many positions to improve.  Going into our 4th year, I feel like we shouldn't be saying that we have to fix the entire middle of the defense and offensive line to the extent we do.  I mean, with all that we need, unless we basically hit on every free agent sign and draft pick, we're looking at two more offseasons.  Landry has been terrible, Adams is getting older, ILB, Chapman has had hsi moments but isn't the anchor we need in the middle of the line, and Redding is also getting older.  Then we have the center and right side of the OL and in need of another WR to round out the offense. 

 

Maybe I'm expecting too much out of the Colts FO, but I still feel as though we should be closer than where we are, but this loss was an embarrassment.  To me, if I had to prioritize, I'd start with the big uglies.  we just haven't done well, generally speaking with putting together a solid reliable OL/DL. 

 

It's a complete failure on Grigson's part. 3 years into a rebuild we should have young draft picks on defense that we can build around for the future. Instead we have a bunch of medicore re-treads getting paid handsomely to play terribly. 2 years ago we had the most cap space in the NFL and our crown jewels from the FA class were Ricky Jean-Francois and Erik Walden. Two guys who aren't even starters on the majority of teams in the NFL.

 

We have had 2 of his 3 first-round picks as healthy scratches in this regimes biggest game. Absolutely horrible. The oline is still arguably as bad as it was when he first got here, if not slightly better. Failure. If we don't show signs of improvment next year, I don't see how Irsay can bring him back.

 

This roster is nowhere where it should be. 

[Valpo2004]

This place can be a dumpster after a big loss like this. I'm as irritated as anyone else, but I come here to talk football, not put up with melodrama.

 

So this thread is for people who want to talk football. Not for "fire XYZ," not for "this player is trash and needs to go," not for "we're wasting Luck's career"... 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) We're too light in the pants to hold up to New England's power run game, especially when they go double strong. We do a poor job of anchoring the line, the backers get washed out and can't make tackles, and then the back end gets worn down. It starts up front. Until we can control the line and make stops at first contact, we won't be consistent against the run. 

 

2) Our pass defense is terrible in the middle of the field. The Pats played off of that with the crossing patterns, knowing we'd fall back to protect the middle. All that short stuff outside is a function of not being able to cover the middle. We have to get better in the middle. DJackson has his strengths, but pass coverage isn't one of them. Landry really doesn't have any strengths. These first two points add up to the conclusion that we have to get better up the middle of the field. Sadly, that was the problem last season. We were slightly better at times this year, but not really.

 

3) The offensive line is a mess, from center to right tackle. Until the line can bully defenses in the ground game and consistently protect Luck the offense will have its struggles. We have to do something at RG and RT. And I think if there's any coaching spot that requires close scrutiny and probably a change, it's the line coach. 

 

4) Throughout the offseason, we expected the receiving corps to be a strength. Nicks didn't pay off; Reggie got hurt; two of the most promising young guys blew their chances. It's just Hilton and Moncrief. Our receivers combined for two catches in the biggest game of the year. If this is it for Reggie, he sadly goes out with a pitiable whimper. We need to get better and deeper at receiver. I know people are going to raise a fuss when we draft a receiver this year. Please don't. It's a huge need.

 

5) I have been torn on whether to prioritize Fleener or Allen. We need both. Re-sign them. That position is a strength of this team.

 

6) Cribbs has to go. This game shows why we had Whalen returning earlier this year. He got pulled off the job after he started getting careless. We need a responsible weapon at returner.

 

7) We still have a great situation at QB. Luck took some serious steps forward this season, and is clearly the bedrock upon which this team will be built. 

 

8) The corners are another strength. With better safety/ILB play, and a better pass rush, they will be dominant in 2015.

 

9) This team is still on its way up. This result sucks, but again, perspective. If the team attacks hard and gets its weaknesses shored up -- we have cap space, we have a full complement of draft picks, and we have a destination for free agents -- we can climb another rung on the ladder. We had an ideal path to the AFCCG this year. Go hard, and we can be favorites for a spot in this game next season, and be just as strong a candidate as any other AFC team to go to the Super Bowl.

 

GO COLTS!!!

 

1. Agree. . . I think we need a better nose tackle especially to get the job done.

 

2. Agree. . . this is sort of why the Patriots are built perfectly to beat the Colts.  They don't have great weapons on the outside, but we cover the outside pretty well.  But they have the NFL's best weapon on the inside where we don't cover very well and we have to sell out to stop him.  On defense the one thing we do well is throw the ball, but they have some of the best DB's in the league.  The Pats are good anyways at using their strengths to their advantage. . . but against us their strengths line up so perfectly against us that it's hardly surprising when we get spanked by them.

 

3. I don't know if you can blame the line coach here.  Good backup tackles are hard to find and we where playing with a backup RT and a backup RG.  Left side is fine and has been all year.  I'm not as worried about being able to protect Luck now as I am about being able to bully opponents on the ground.  Luck has done pretty well with offensive lines much worse then this, so he will get his.

 

4. I've been disappointed that Moncrief hasn't shown up more.  He had some great games in the regular season but towards the end of the season he tailed off bad and continued that in the playoffs.  It seems the only way he's gotten the ball is if we design a play specifically to go to him.  

 

5. Agree

 

6. I don't think Whalen actually made that many mistakes, especially when compared to Cribbs.  He's not the returner we're looking for.  Honestly I'm not a believer that we really need a good return man.  I just want a guy who catches the ball and doesn't turn it over.  Maybe he gets a extra yards on a punt return or a kick return if they are there to be had, but someone who doesn't force anything.  Half the kick returns end deep in the endzone or go out of the endzone anyways.  And if you look, Cribbs was considered an elite returner because he had 8 TD's off of returns in his career.  That's an average of like 1 per season...  How is that bringing us a lot of value?  It's not.

 

On the other hand mistakes on special teams can turn a game around very quickly and give the opposing team momentum.  They are huge.  The #1 requirement of a good return man should be that he NEVER turns the ball over.  I don't care if he's slower then Peyton Manning trying to run through 3 feet of Molasses.  Not turning the ball over is the most important thing.

 

7. Agreed

 

8. It's been underrated how Davis/Toler/Adam's play has allowed the rest of the team to sell out to stop the run in several games.

 

9. Pats are a rough situation for us.  They run well when they need to and they pass well when they need to.  You need a really good defense to slow down both, that's something we don't have.  We sell out against the pass every time we play them and their RB goes for 150+ yards on us every time.  But it doesn't matter if we switched it up.  If we sold out against the run, Brady would just drop it over the top on us.

[Superman]

Good break down as ever. I guess when you put it like that it's worth the short term pain, though how would envisage replacing him, the draft?

 

That's the best option, but I don't know if you want to commit a top 60 pick to an offensive lineman. I guess we kind of need to, though. Guards are cheaper in free agency.

[Superman]

It's a complete failure on Grigson's part. 3 years into a rebuild we should have young draft picks on defense that we can build around for the future. Instead we have a bunch of medicore re-treads getting paid handsomely to play terribly. 2 years ago we had the most cap space in the NFL and our crown jewels from the FA class were Ricky Jean-Francois and Erik Walden. Two guys who aren't even starters on the majority of teams in the NFL.

 

We have had 2 of his 3 first-round picks as healthy scratches in this regimes biggest game. Absolutely horrible. The oline is still arguably as bad as it was when he first got here, if not slightly better. Failure. If we don't show signs of improvment next year, I don't see how Irsay can bring him back.

 

This roster is nowhere where it should be. 

 

I don't agree with your bearish outlook, but I do agree that 2015 is critical for Grigson. I give him more credit that you, but if the roster isn't significantly improved, especially terms of young playmakers on defense, then my tone on him changes. 

[Dustin]

I don't agree with your bearish outlook, but I do agree that 2015 is critical for Grigson. I give him more credit that you, but if the roster isn't significantly improved, especially terms of young playmakers on defense, then my tone on him changes. 

 

As long as we keep winning, Grigson won't be gone. And eventually we'll turn into the Falcons. Having wasted almost half of Luck's career.

[jskinnz]

This place can be a dumpster after a big loss like this. I'm as irritated as anyone else, but I come here to talk football, not put up with melodrama.

 

So this thread is for people who want to talk football. Not for "fire XYZ," not for "this player is trash and needs to go," not for "we're wasting Luck's career"... 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) We're too light in the pants to hold up to New England's power run game, especially when they go double strong. We do a poor job of anchoring the line, the backers get washed out and can't make tackles, and then the back end gets worn down. It starts up front. Until we can control the line and make stops at first contact, we won't be consistent against the run. 

 

2) Our pass defense is terrible in the middle of the field. The Pats played off of that with the crossing patterns, knowing we'd fall back to protect the middle. All that short stuff outside is a function of not being able to cover the middle. We have to get better in the middle. DJackson has his strengths, but pass coverage isn't one of them. Landry really doesn't have any strengths. These first two points add up to the conclusion that we have to get better up the middle of the field. Sadly, that was the problem last season. We were slightly better at times this year, but not really.

 

3) The offensive line is a mess, from center to right tackle. Until the line can bully defenses in the ground game and consistently protect Luck the offense will have its struggles. We have to do something at RG and RT. And I think if there's any coaching spot that requires close scrutiny and probably a change, it's the line coach. 

 

4) Throughout the offseason, we expected the receiving corps to be a strength. Nicks didn't pay off; Reggie got hurt; two of the most promising young guys blew their chances. It's just Hilton and Moncrief. Our receivers combined for two catches in the biggest game of the year. If this is it for Reggie, he sadly goes out with a pitiable whimper. We need to get better and deeper at receiver. I know people are going to raise a fuss when we draft a receiver this year. Please don't. It's a huge need.

 

5) I have been torn on whether to prioritize Fleener or Allen. We need both. Re-sign them. That position is a strength of this team.

 

6) Cribbs has to go. This game shows why we had Whalen returning earlier this year. He got pulled off the job after he started getting careless. We need a responsible weapon at returner.

 

7) We still have a great situation at QB. Luck took some serious steps forward this season, and is clearly the bedrock upon which this team will be built. 

 

8) The corners are another strength. With better safety/ILB play, and a better pass rush, they will be dominant in 2015.

 

9) This team is still on its way up. This result sucks, but again, perspective. If the team attacks hard and gets its weaknesses shored up -- we have cap space, we have a full complement of draft picks, and we have a destination for free agents -- we can climb another rung on the ladder. We had an ideal path to the AFCCG this year. Go hard, and we can be favorites for a spot in this game next season, and be just as strong a candidate as any other AFC team to go to the Super Bowl.

 

GO COLTS!!!

 

Really appreciate the level-headed response to an ugly night.  Amazed at the nonsense spewed elsewhere in the forum and the return of some who simply don't know.  Heck, there was even a Mod on here last night who created a list of those who need to be cut and for reasons only known to him included Walden and Toler on the list.

 

To your thoughts...

 

1) No argument here.  They have to invest resources to get better D'line play.  They need to be more athletic.

 

2) No doubt.  Again more athleticism is desperately needed at ILB and safety.  The type of safety Landry is can be expiated by good NFL offenses.  The inside the box only safety is a thing of the past.  Adams was a nice story but he can certainly be upgraded.  Jackson and Freemen are only OK and have definite weakness.  

 

3) I would think the center position is OK going forward as well as the left side but the right sides is in dire need of an upgrade.  I think Thomas has significant enough injuries that counting on him is a wasted exercise.  Thornton has proven he is not the answer.  Maybe a healthy Cherilus can be the RT but I have my doubts on that.

 

4) Anyone who would argue that WR is not a position of need does not know the game or the team.

 

5) One offense, the Colts most significant match-up advantage is with both Fleener and Allen.  They both need to stay.

 

6) No argument about Cribbs.  The need for a return man has been discussed for about as long as fixing the o'line.  Must be addressed.

 

7) Have said this many times - Luck will be his generations Brady or Manning.  

 

8) Clearly Davis and Toler are the d's strength.  On my list of true playmakers on this roster, those two, Luck, Moncrief & Hilton rate to me as the only ones on the roster.  Maybe Fleener too.

 

9) Agreed.  Personally I think this season has been a real success, especially so given the talent limitations at many positions.  It speaks to how truly special Luck is.  They have the most important piece in place - now build around him and they can truly become contenders for many years to come.

[Superman]

2. Agree. . . this is sort of why the Patriots are built perfectly to beat the Colts.  They don't have great weapons on the outside, but we cover the outside pretty well.  But they have the NFL's best weapon on the inside where we don't cover very well and we have to sell out to stop him.  On defense the one thing we do well is throw the ball, but they have some of the best DB's in the league.  The Pats are good anyways at using their strengths to their advantage. . . but against us their strengths line up so perfectly against us that it's hardly surprising when we get spanked by them.

 

3. I don't know if you can blame the line coach here.  Good backup tackles are hard to find and we where playing with a backup RT and a backup RG.  Left side is fine and has been all year.  I'm not as worried about being able to protect Luck now as I am about being able to bully opponents on the ground.  Luck has done pretty well with offensive lines much worse then this, so he will get his.

 

4. I've been disappointed that Moncrief hasn't shown up more.  He had some great games in the regular season but towards the end of the season he tailed off bad and continued that in the playoffs.  It seems the only way he's gotten the ball is if we design a play specifically to go to him.  

 

6. I don't think Whalen actually made that many mistakes, especially when compared to Cribbs.  He's not the returner we're looking for.  Honestly I'm not a believer that we really need a good return man.  I just want a guy who catches the ball and doesn't turn it over.  Maybe he gets a extra yards on a punt return or a kick return if they are there to be had, but someone who doesn't force anything.  Half the kick returns end deep in the endzone or go out of the endzone anyways.  And if you look, Cribbs was considered an elite returner because he had 8 TD's off of returns in his career.  That's an average of like 1 per season...  How is that bringing us a lot of value?  It's not.

 

On the other hand mistakes on special teams can turn a game around very quickly and give the opposing team momentum.  They are huge.  The #1 requirement of a good return man should be that he NEVER turns the ball over.  I don't care if he's slower then Peyton Manning trying to run through 3 feet of Molasses.  Not turning the ball over is the most important thing.

 

 

2) Excellent points, to go along with what you said about Davis/Toler/Adams. We can sell out against teams that aren't equipped to hurt us across the middle. I keep saying it, but Denver really failed in that regard. The Pats did not.

 

3) We have a lot of young guys who have failed to get better. Some of them have gotten worse as time has gone on. Many of our blocking schemes seemed doomed from the start. I'm not laying it all at his feet; like you said, personnel has been a major issue. But I think he's the weak link on this staff (based on my limited knowledge and insight). And I think this is a critical year in this team's development. Not to scapegoat him, but I'd be looking for a better option. The Niners entire staff is available for consideration, I think.

 

4) This is the thing on Moncrief. People were calling for him to play an increased role, as if he was the key to our offense. He's a stud athlete and he plays his butt off, but he's raw in the finer points of being a pro receiver. The best athlete at WR in the draft fell to the third round for a reason. And again, I'm a fan of his. He just has a lot of work to do.

 

6) Whalen started making some mistakes, to the point that I couldn't look at him and say "it's okay that he can't get yardage, because he always secures possession. He misplayed some balls, costing us field position, he fumbled twice, and he brought some kicks out that he had no business even considering. I was totally fine with him securing possession and walking back off the field. It's when he started trying to be a return specialist that I got fed up. And while I don't think it's critical to have a big time return game, it would be nice to have someone that the opposing team has to be careful with. It influences their approach, they punt more carefully, resulting in net yardage for us.

[Superman]

As long as we keep winning, Grigson won't be gone. And eventually we'll turn into the Falcons. Having wasted almost half of Luck's career.

 

Yeah, that's that bearish outlook I disagree with. I don't think we're doomed to be anything. Not yet.

 

But I've said myself, my greatest fear is that we look up in a couple years and look like the 2013-2014 Falcons. But I doubt that happens.

[Superman]

 

8) Clearly Davis and Toler are the d's strength.  On my list of true playmakers on this roster, those two, Luck, Moncrief & Hilton rate to me as the only ones on the roster.  Maybe Fleener too.

 

 

Mostly agreed all around. Just wanted to piggyback on this. Given the contracts the team has on the books, they could technically blow up the roster and completely retool around those core players (plus a handful more). That would be drastic, and I don't think it's the right thing to do, but it's not like we're tied to anyone. No one, outside of about 8-10 guys, is untouchable.

[Surge89]

This place can be a dumpster after a big loss like this. I'm as irritated as anyone else, but I come here to talk football, not put up with melodrama.

 

So this thread is for people who want to talk football. Not for "fire XYZ," not for "this player is trash and needs to go," not for "we're wasting Luck's career"... 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) We're too light in the pants to hold up to New England's power run game, especially when they go double strong. We do a poor job of anchoring the line, the backers get washed out and can't make tackles, and then the back end gets worn down. It starts up front. Until we can control the line and make stops at first contact, we won't be consistent against the run. 

 

Agreed.  The middle of the defense is again an issue.

 

2) Our pass defense is terrible in the middle of the field. The Pats played off of that with the crossing patterns, knowing we'd fall back to protect the middle. All that short stuff outside is a function of not being able to cover the middle. We have to get better in the middle. DJackson has his strengths, but pass coverage isn't one of them. Landry really doesn't have any strengths. These first two points add up to the conclusion that we have to get better up the middle of the field. Sadly, that was the problem last season. We were slightly better at times this year, but not really.

 

Completely agree.  I think me and you have had this conversation the past 2 years.  We just don't have it up the middle including the Safety/ILB.  Bethea struggled when he was in our first year and it seems like we just have no luck getting better in this area.

 

3) The offensive line is a mess, from center to right tackle. Until the line can bully defenses in the ground game and consistently protect Luck the offense will have its struggles. We have to do something at RG and RT. And I think if there's any coaching spot that requires close scrutiny and probably a change, it's the line coach. 

 

This is the one that I don't completely agree.  The O-Line isn't a mess.  The issue is... will Holmes start next season?  If he does will he get Thornton beside him?  Will the blocking scheme change or be simplified?  This, imo of course, is more of a coaching issue than a talent issue.  I see our line as a talented oline, but the stunts and blocks that we do often don't make sense for any NFL level oline to perform.  An O-Line coaching change I feel will change this offense.  Then again it might be Pep calling the line...so...

 

4) Throughout the offseason, we expected the receiving corps to be a strength. Nicks didn't pay off; Reggie got hurt; two of the most promising young guys blew their chances. It's just Hilton and Moncrief. Our receivers combined for two catches in the biggest game of the year. If this is it for Reggie, he sadly goes out with a pitiable whimper. We need to get better and deeper at receiver. I know people are going to raise a fuss when we draft a receiver this year. Please don't. It's a huge need.

 

Err...  this is a tough one.  Yes and no, I guess lol.  Nicks is done yes but Reggie healthy might be more than adequate as a possession guy as Whalen was early in the year.  Which still baffles me why we didn't have Whalen out there yesterday... but I digress...  I think we have enough talent here that complements our TE's.  I'd rather run an ACE package with 2 TE's and a WR than a 3 or 4 WR set.  But again that is just my opinion.

 

5) I have been torn on whether to prioritize Fleener or Allen. We need both. Re-sign them. That position is a strength of this team.

 

I can't give an answer for prioritize.  I was extremely hard on Fleener when he came into the league but he has shut me up and become a very productive player.  If we can I would like to keep both (see comment above).

 

6) Cribbs has to go. This game shows why we had Whalen returning earlier this year. He got pulled off the job after he started getting careless. We need a responsible weapon at returner.

 

I didn't like the signing when we did it and still don't.  It is what it is.

 

7) We still have a great situation at QB. Luck took some serious steps forward this season, and is clearly the bedrock upon which this team will be built. 

 

Agreed.  I wonder how Luck will perform if he ever gets a stable running game.

 

8) The corners are another strength. With better safety/ILB play, and a better pass rush, they will be dominant in 2015.

 

Our DB's can carry this defense.  We just need an above average player at the ILB and at the NT.  I don't see the Safety as much of a priority as the 2 aforementioned.  Then again we disagreed earlier in the year on this :-).  I fee like if we can stop the run consistently, the DB's can handle the rest.

 

9) This team is still on its way up. This result sucks, but again, perspective. If the team attacks hard and gets its weaknesses shored up -- we have cap space, we have a full complement of draft picks, and we have a destination for free agents -- we can climb another rung on the ladder. We had an ideal path to the AFCCG this year. Go hard, and we can be favorites for a spot in this game next season, and be just as strong a candidate as any other AFC team to go to the Super Bowl.

 

For the sake of the thread I won't bring up my feelings about us in regards to the rest of the AFC.  I do think we have the players though to be a competitor.  And we only need a few pieces players wise.

 

GO COLTS!!!

 

Good post!  see bolded in response.

[throwing BBZ]

What has Nicks done to deserve another year? I was giving him a little bit of leeway before today, but that drop gave me all I needed to be willing to move on. 

 

I think there are a ton of pro ready receivers who can round out our receiver corps. I'd take one of a dozen rookies over Nicks.

 

And this point that you're making is kind of why I said the whole thing about us drafting a receiver. Yes, we need young defensive playmakers. I'm sure we'll draft some of those. We also need a receiver. Maybe we don't draft one, but I think we should. If we do that and sign a vet -- I'd hold my nose and put up with Nicks, but I think we can do better -- I'm fine.

 

 Nicks isn`t the answer.

We need a great route runner with some size too, since Andrew LOVES the High ball. The 2nd round is supposed to be loaded at WR.

Cam Johnson was set for a nice season replacing pass rush Specialist Mathis. So maybe...

Walden is no Suggs. He looks decent against some weak teams, but isn`t the GUY. Not even close.

Our D scheme sucked, but we need a great athlete in the middle of the D.

 And a safety with a Brain to help stop the run.

[Jason_]

I'm not thinking Mathis will be a major factor. If he is, great, but I don't expect it. We need to upgrade at pass rusher as well. 

 

Chapman and Hughes have their positives, but they aren't difference makers. We have none on the defensive line. A group of five or six regular guy that don't require special attention. 

 

Agreed on Davis and Toler, even though Toler had some issues.

 

Agreed on a safety, and I agree we should draft one.

 

And of course the RG and RT, we have to -- HAVE TO -- fix those spots. 

 

About Chapman and Hughes, the good news is they can continue to develop and improve.  This was Chapman's first year as a full time starter.  I don't think he's a finished product by any means.  Now, if there's a Dontari Poe type that falls to us in the draft, then by all means snatch him up.  However, I don't think it's time for panic mode about the NT position just yet.

 

I also think that Jones can and will be a difference maker.  It sucks that he was injured part of the year and that limited his opportunities to really begin to gel with the rest of the front 7.  Plus, I tend to think that Redding and Jones would be better if they flipped sides.  Next year I'd personally like to see Jones on the strong side and RJF on the weak side.

[Superman]

About Chapman and Hughes, the good news is they can continue to develop and improve.  This was Chapman's first year as a full time starter.  I don't think he's a finished product by any means.  Now, if there's a Dontari Poe type that falls to us in the draft, then by all means snatch him up.  However, I don't think it's time for panic mode about the NT position just yet.

 

I also think that Jones can and will be a difference maker.  It sucks that he was injured part of the year and that limited his opportunities to really begin to gel with the rest of the front 7.  Plus, I tend to think that Redding and Jones would be better if they flipped sides.  Next year I'd personally like to see Jones on the strong side and RJF on the weak side.

 

Chapman is supposed to be an anchor. I agree that his technique can improve, but I don't think he's going to develop into a significantly better player. I'm okay with that, by the way. He averaged 24 snaps/game this season. He's a rotational role player. No panic at all. But he's no Jamal Williams.

 

I do think Jones can be better than he was this year. Between the injury and a constantly changing role for him, I don't think we've seen his best. But he's not the disruptive, shoot up the field and make plays kind of guy that would do a lot to transform our defensive front. 

[Superman]

 Nicks isn`t the answer.

We need a great route runner with some size too, since Andrew LOVES the High ball. The 2nd round is supposed to be loaded at WR.

Cam Johnson was set for a nice season replacing pass rush Specialist Mathis. So maybe...

Walden is no Suggs. He looks decent against some weak teams, but isn`t the GUY. Not even close.

Our D scheme sucked, but we need a great athlete in the middle of the D.

 And a safety with a Brain to help stop the run.

 

Walden isn't supposed to be Suggs. The Ravens have a luxury of two versatile OLBs who are both really good pass rushers. I'd like to have that, but what makes that tandem so good is that both of those guys can play the more technical Sam spot equally as well as the more playmaking Rush spot. It would be great if Walden had Suggs-like ability, but no one has ever accused him of being "the guy." He's not paid like "the guy." 

 

We do need a great athlete in the middle. But you sacrifice size and power at the point of attack against the run with a great athlete, so it just re-emphasizes the need to play better up front.

[DougDew]

I agree with Superman's analysis of the colts' problems.

I am heading in another direction for what the fix is....

The colts lack a threat on offense that worries defenses he will score a touchdown whenever he has the ball. A young Edgerrin james and even a Terrance Wilkens was that kind of player...and the Colts went 13-3 that year behind a green-horn Manning.

The colts haven't had an athletic TD threat in over a decade. The O has been predicated on the QB making accurate throws and having the time to do it...as well as scheming receivers to get open..that basic approach hasn't changed with the drafting of Luck.

Once in a while, you just need to try to get the ball into the hands of your playmaker.

TY and Marvin Harrison are the 2 players closet to being that guy in the past 10 years, but they are (were) really just over the top threats and not the kind of player I'm talking about.

The D toughness can be improved by directing all other draft and FA resources to it..after that playmaker on O is found...and I don't care if he is a RB or a WR.

[Buddy Lee]

No one could get open, and while the protection was decent much of the time, at least initially, it wasn't good enough to give the receivers time to shake free. They bracketed Hilton, which is smart, and put Revis on Moncrief, who isn't yet good enough to handle a savvy corner like that (and the one chance he got down the field highlights Moncrief's biggest weakness, which is attacking the ball in the air; if he does that, he either makes the grab, or gets a PI flag, or both). They also dropped LBs across the middle to slow down the TEs and swarm everything underneath.

 

This is the gameplan the Broncos should have played. I don't know if they would have pulled it off like the Pats did, but it would have limited our offense much better. 

 

We have to fix the line. I scoffed at Iupati a few weeks ago, but I'm starting to think that's a good idea. Him or Clint Boling would upgrade the RG spot dramatically and ease some of the pressure to either side.

Even though the right side of the OL leaked early, the left side held and Luck moved within the pocket with his eyes downfield. He had plenty of time by NFL standards due to his pocket presence. What was lacking was receivers gaining separation. What was key there was that the OC never made adjustments to help the receivers gain separation. No half time adjustments that I could put my finger on. Belichick had Edelmann do all kinds of things with motion, etc. to get him open. Did we do anything similar with TY? I think not!