Ways to fix the OL going forward

[UKColt13]

I don't see why using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on interior O linemen is a bad thing.

 

We can fix our teams holes with the resources we have, we just have to be smart

[pgt_rob]

I don't see why using our 2nd and 3rd rounders on interior O linemen is a bad thing.

 

We can fix our teams holes with the resources we have, we just have to be smart

 

Dallas and Arizona have both drafted OLinemen in the early rounds. It's paying off. We drafted Mewhort and he's doing pretty good at left guard. I think we should draft a right guard and center early in the draft. Cherilus is serviceable at right tackle. Use Khaled Holmes and Harrison as depth.

[superrep1967]

Could it just be a matter of bringing in OL minded front office personnel? I for one would love to see Jeff Saturday brought on in a front office role helping with draft decisions, particularly on the OL, as well as general decisions since he is well respected and was a spokesperson for the NFLPA.

 

Listening to Trent Dilfer on JMB Radio, he said the Colts simply aren't doing a good job of identifying quality players on the OL, and are struggling developing some of them.

Yeah but you'd think Grigson would be better at that with his background. 

[Superman]

This article pretty much sums up everything: http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/12/22/7439013/chuck-pagano-pretends-like-continuity-matters-on-the-offensive-line

 

"So get this: Chuck Pagano acknowledged both the importance of continuity along the line and acknowledged that it was certainly a reason for the Colts' struggles, yet minutes later wouldn't say who would start at center.  I hope you see the stupidity of that."

 

That article is stupid.

[throwing BBZ]

Sign Iupati and Wisniewski. An O Line of Castanzo Iupati Wisniewski  Mewhort Cherilus would be one of the best in the league. I think Cherilus will return to form next season. Don't forget he's been playing injured and he was a stud last year when healthy. Heck I'd bet T-Rich could run behind that line.

 

Cherilus was a part of the 3rd worst rated pass blocking tackle tandem last season. So clearly he wasn`t very good last season. !

 Mewhort and Cherilus are not very good so this is a dud.

 

[pgt_rob]

That article is stupid.

 

How so? It is arguably the top thing about our team that draws highest major concern. We need continuity with our O-Line to gell together during games. It is now Week 16 and we do not have a starting Center or Right Guard and we continue to play different O-Line combinations. That must be a huge head ache for Andrew to throw behind.

[pgt_rob]

Cherilus was a part of the 3rd worst rated pass blocking tackle tandem last season. So clearly he wasn`t very good last season. !

 Mewhort and Cherilus are not very good so this is a dud.

 

 

Cherilus had a couple bad games this season. But he is our best bet at Right Tackle right now. Nobody has played better than he has in my opinion. How can you say Mewhort is not very good? That is laughable.

[Superman]

How so? It is arguably the top thing about our team that draws highest major concern. We need continuity with our O-Line to gell together during games. It is now Week 16 and we do not have a starting Center or Right Guard and we continue to play different O-Line combinations. That must be a huge head ache for Andrew to throw behind.

 

It's incredibly flawed reasoning.

 

1) The primary reason the line lacks continuity is injuries. Nothing the coaches can do about that.

 

2) Just because Pagano won't name his starter Monday afternoon doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate the need for continuity. In fact, his comments that are being nitpicked make it very clear that he DOES appreciate the need for continuity.

 

3) The root of this entire discussion is that people (read: fans) want the team to go back to AQ Shipley, and that's evidently not going to happen. This Shipley thing runs so deep that his name came up ten times a week even last season, when he wasn't even on the roster.

 

4) People didn't care about continuity when they were crying for Harrison to be replaced in the starting lineup. See #3. They want Shipley. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Just because the coaches aren't playing the guy(s) you want doesn't mean they're stupid.

[pgt_rob]

It's incredibly flawed reasoning.

 

1) The primary reason the line lacks continuity is injuries. Nothing the coaches can do about that.

 

2) Just because Pagano won't name his starter Monday afternoon doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate the need for continuity. In fact, his comments that are being nitpicked make it very clear that he DOES appreciate the need for continuity.

 

3) The root of this entire discussion is that people (read: fans) want the team to go back to AQ Shipley, and that's evidently not going to happen. This Shipley thing runs so deep that his name came up ten times a week even last season, when he wasn't even on the roster.

 

4) People didn't care about continuity when they were crying for Harrison to be replaced in the starting lineup. See #3. They want Shipley. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Just because the coaches aren't playing the guy(s) you want doesn't mean they're stupid.

 

 

Okay. Throw out all positions except for Center.

 

We have a healthy J. Harrison.

 

We have a healthy K. Holmes

 

We have a healthy A.Q. Shipley

 

How does your #1 factor into this?

[Superman]

Okay. Throw out all positions except for Center.

 

We have a healthy J. Harrison.

 

We have a healthy K. Holmes

 

We have a healthy A.Q. Shipley

 

How does your #1 factor into this?

 

Holmes was the starter through the offseason. He got hurt in the first preseason game. Harrison was his backup. He got hurt in preseason. Shipley was brought in as a spot starter. If not for injuries, it's very likely that Shipley wouldn't even be on the team, and Holmes would have been the starter all season long.

 

As of right now, Harrison missed time in practice last week, which is part of the reason they switched to Holmes against the Cowboys.

 

So #1 factors in very much.

[pgt_rob]

Holmes was the starter through the offseason. He got hurt in the first preseason game. Harrison was his backup. He got hurt in preseason. Shipley was brought in as a spot starter. If not for injuries, it's very likely that Shipley wouldn't even be on the team, and Holmes would have been the starter all season long.

 

As of right now, Harrison missed time in practice last week, which is part of the reason they switched to Holmes against the Cowboys.

 

So #1 factors in very much.

 

Ehh... All 3 were healthy (maybe not during the Dallas game) but we still chose Harrison over K. Holmes when they were both healthy. There is perhaps some behind the scenes information going on that we do not know of.

[Superman]

Ehh... All 3 were healthy (maybe not during the Dallas game) but we still chose Harrison over K. Holmes when they were both healthy. There is perhaps some behind the scenes information going on that we do not know of.

 

That seems reasonable, doesn't it?

 

But the argument is that the coaches need to name their starting center on Monday, and tell the media, otherwise they don't care about continuity. Such circular logic that I don't even know where to begin.

[IndyD4U]

I want proven linemen! Not drafted projects. Solid, veteran, experienced lineman. Center and RG

[pgt_rob]

That seems reasonable, doesn't it?

 

But the argument is that the coaches need to name their starting center on Monday, and tell the media, otherwise they don't care about continuity. Such circular logic that I don't even know where to begin.

 

The coaches don't need to NAME anyone to the media on who starts. But, we need to have some continuity by sticking with the same guys barring injury. It should be obvious that Harrison starts. But instead, it's always a secret until gameday.

[ColtStronger]

I think it's safe to say, Castonzo is the only somewhat good lineman we have.  I'll give Cherilus the benefit of the doubt because he has been injured most of the season.  Everyone else is underachieving.  I understand the interior is extremely young, but that doesn't give them an excuse to not play up to par.  The way this should be addressed IMO,

 

1.  Get a credible O line coach that has a proven track record 

2.  Bring in a new veteran RG that has experience and has played on a dominant line.  

3.  Make up their mind on the Holmes Harrison debate (or if they're still indecisive around training camp bring in an older C for vet minimum to patch the hole for next year.  I want one of the two to be "our guy" but I am very hesitant because I don't think either will even be ready next year).

4.  Continue to develope Mewhort.  (It sucks we have to wait but I think he'll be worth it).

5.  Hold every player accountable.  I'm tired of excuses (injuries, inexperience) isn't a reason anymore.  We will be going into the 4th season of our scheme, it's about time they just simply "get the job done"!  If they're given an opportunity, then they either capitalize on it on NEXT MAN UP!  This flip flop crap is too much. 

 

PS I realize coaches cant prevent injuries and time only can help the inexperience factor, but if our line was always bullying the defense, I think it's less likely for injury.  As for the inexperience, a proven line coach can offset that with a few good players and a great blocking scheme.  I'm not asking for perfection, but we can't tolerate sub par mediocracy. 

[Superman]

The coaches don't need to NAME anyone to the media on who starts. But, we need to have some continuity by sticking with the same guys barring injury. It should be obvious that Harrison starts. But instead, it's always a secret until gameday.

 

What would the story be from guys like Josh Wilson if Pagano named Harrison the starter? He'd be satisfied, right? 

 

This is media angst. It doesn't have to be logical, it just has to be capable of inciting the masses. 

 

And whether it's a secret to us until gameday or not doesn't change the mechanics of the decision making process, nor does it affect continuity. They can keep it a secret every week, and start the same guy. They just want to complain.

[pgt_rob]

They can keep it a secret every week, and start the same guy. They just want to complain.

 

I would prefer that.

[COLTS449]

Cherilus was a part of the 3rd worst rated pass blocking tackle tandem last season. So clearly he wasn`t very good last season. !

 Mewhort and Cherilus are not very good so this is a dud.

 

 

, Cherilus graded out very well according to PFF last season. He was actually very good in pass protection. Yes, our line sucked last year but he and Castanzo were the two bright spots, the interior of the line was the problem last year, and Cherilus has been injured all year so I expect him to be back to himself next season. Also Mewhort has played pretty well this season for the most part, He's going to be a solid Guard.

[masterlock]

Just bring in an OL-minded GM--oh wait...

[OLD FAN MAN]

I want proven linemen! Not drafted projects. Solid, veteran, experienced lineman. Center and RG

a lot of projects never develop, with proven linemen the future is now , projects are maybe  3 years from now. imo we have had projects on the o-line for several years and this is the worst line I have seen, regressing with projects. maybe one project lineman brought along slow, don't like 3 projects in front of luck and trent, it kills our running and passing game

[lennymoore24]

I like if by the first playoff game we have Castonzo, Mewhort, Holmes, Thornton, and Cherilus as the Oline, we won't be great but we can move the ball.  I think that is our best combination.

[OLD FAN MAN]

just wait 3 or 4 years for our project o-line to develop, and if they never develop try some more draft pick projects and they may develop in 3 or 4 years,if they don't sign with another team then, don't give up we may find some who can cut it, if luck is still around, who needs proven players?

[RockThatBlue]

I think it's safe to say, Castonzo is the only somewhat good lineman we have. I'll give Cherilus the benefit of the doubt because he has been injured most of the season. Everyone else is underachieving. I understand the interior is extremely young, but that doesn't give them an excuse to not play up to par. The way this should be addressed IMO,

1. Get a credible O line coach that has a proven track record

2. Bring in a new veteran RG that has experience and has played on a dominant line.

3. Make up their mind on the Holmes Harrison debate (or if they're still indecisive around training camp bring in an older C for vet minimum to patch the hole for next year. I want one of the two to be "our guy" but I am very hesitant because I don't think either will even be ready next year).

4. Continue to develope Mewhort. (It sucks we have to wait but I think he'll be worth it).

5. Hold every player accountable. I'm tired of excuses (injuries, inexperience) isn't a reason anymore. We will be going into the 4th season of our scheme, it's about time they just simply "get the job done"! If they're given an opportunity, then they either capitalize on it on NEXT MAN UP! This flip flop crap is too much.

PS I realize coaches cant prevent injuries and time only can help the inexperience factor, but if our line was always bullying the defense, I think it's less likely for injury. As for the inexperience, a proven line coach can offset that with a few good players and a great blocking scheme. I'm not asking for perfection, but we can't tolerate sub par mediocracy.

Good post. I definitely agree with getting a new o line coach. He's shown me nothing. Terminating Gilbert has got to be done. Other o line coaches make it work with maybe even less talent than our line.

Once again great post, just had to rant a bit about our horrible o line coach.

[coltsfanatic24]

I doubt we draft any o-line this year, the players just have to play better. Donald Thomas was a good LG before his injury, if we had him there wouldn't be any o-line problems. I think defense will be drafted with the 1st three picks, OLB, ILB, and S.

[Track Guy]

I doubt we draft any o-line this year, the players just have to play better. Donald Thomas was a good LG before his injury, if we had him there wouldn't be any o-line problems. I think defense will be drafted with the 1st three picks, OLB, ILB, and S.

If we don't draft another O-lineman we better pick up a good vet to add to the mix in FA. 

[coltsfanatic24]

That's what I think will happen, a FA vet G. The Offensive line isn't why we're losing games, its the defense in particular the 4 LB's. The secondary and defensive line is good, LB's need to be upgraded.

 

If we don't draft another O-lineman we better pick up a good vet to add to the mix in FA. 

[southwest1]

Tony Dungy's team won the Super Bowl the next year.  He built that team the right way.  All it needed was tweaking and Gruden did that.

 

I will acknowledge that John Gruden properly gave Tony credit for building that 2002 Championship defense as he should have that's true, but Gruden's in your face accountability is what won that SB not Dungy. It's more than just "tweaking" LKD. 

So you think most people are as good at their jobs in year 1 as year 2, 3, or 4? There is young talent on this roster. Gavin had some nice points above about other issues that are causing problems.

Overall, I don't think the OL is as bad as everyone thinks. YPC is fine. Luck holds the ball a long time.

So you think our line didn't get pushed backwards into Luck's face vs Dallas? Please...That's just ridiculous. LOL! 

 

If you wanna make the argument that Luck needs to throw the ball away more often, sure I'll buy that, but our o-line doesn't resemble anything remotely considered good. Against below average teams we look servicable [sic] but against elite squads led by Brady, Big Ben, & Rivers we would get blown off the darn field. Who are we kidding here? 

[OLD FAN MAN]

I will acknowledge that John Gruden properly gave Tony credit for building that 2002 Championship defense as he should have that's true, but Gruden's in your face accountability is what won that SB not Dungy. It's more than just "tweaking" LKD. 

So you think our line didn't get pushed backwards into Luck's face vs Dallas? Please...That's just ridiculous. LOL! 

not every play were they in lucks face, sometimes they tackled our rbs in the backfield. I did not notice but I don't think  lthe boys were in our backfield every play. we pushed them back 1 or 2 times. our project o-line has only had one season, wait 3 or 4 years maybe we will get better

[southwest1]

not every play were they in lucks face, sometimes they tackled our rbs in the backfield. I did not notice but I don't think  lthe boys were in our backfield every play. we pushed them back 1 or 2 times. our project o-line has only had one season, wait 3 or 4 years maybe we will get better

I will wait & see what Grigs does in the off season. For me, it's about imposing your will on the line & we just weren't doing it. Yes, part of that is that Dallas's line is elite & we are not. I realize that. 

 

I will give Grigs time to solidify our line, but I need to see signs of protecting Luck in the pocket limiting Andrew's necessity to flee a collapsed pocket. Until INDY can shield him like a baby in his mother's womb, the Colts have no shot at the AFC Championship game. That's my benchmark: The game before the SB. 

[Stephen]

I think the line will be A.C. mehort holmes Thornton cherilus

[jabbanobadda]

I will acknowledge that John Gruden properly gave Tony credit for building that 2002 Championship defense as he should have that's true, but Gruden's in your face accountability is what won that SB not Dungy. It's more than just "tweaking" LKD. 

So you think our line didn't get pushed backwards into Luck's face vs Dallas? Please...That's just ridiculous. LOL! 

 

If you wanna make the argument that Luck needs to throw the ball away more often, sure I'll buy that, but our o-line doesn't resemble anything remotely considered good. Against below average teams we look servicable [sic] but against elite squads led by Brady, Big Ben, & Rivers we would get blown off the darn field. Who are we kidding here? 

You do realize that getting blown out by Brady, Manning and Rothlisberger isn't a reflection on our o line as much as it is the defense...right?  I agree with the other poster...one o line FA signing and draft D.

[ColtStronger]

Good post. I definitely agree with getting a new o line coach. He's shown me nothing. Terminating Gilbert has got to be done. Other o line coaches make it work with maybe even less talent than our line.

Once again great post, just had to rant a bit about our horrible o line coach.

The talent on the line definitely doesn't help, neither do injuries, but like you said I don't think we have "the worst" line, but it makes it seem like it.  It appears the line coach just doesn't have good blocking schemes, and perhaps lacks skills to actually coach.  I know they're young, but I haven't really seen much improvement with our rookies and 2nd year guys on the line. 

[YOUR GM]

I would like to see a new line coach next year. I haven't seen much progression in our younger players (namely Thornton) and the blocking scheme seems flawed, in general. We're seeing the immediate impacts of quality line coaches when a change is made. Bill Calahan, Mike Munchek, Gary Kubiak (even though he's a coordinator, he obviously has extensive knowledge about blocking schemes) have all transformed their team's respective lines in a relatively short amount of time. Far less than the 3 years we've wasted collecting talent via free agency and the draft with little progress to show for it under Gilbert.

I would like to see Alex Gibbs or someone from his coaching tree brought in as either a line coach or in a consultant role next season. He's currently employed at the same capacity with the Broncos right now

[DougDew]

At this point, this is what I would do:

 

Put Mewhort at RT. 

 

Cut Gosder and his balky knee and use his 5 mil cap money to sign a veteran next to Mewhort at RG.  Resign AC. 

 

Let Holmes, Harrison, Reitz, Nixon, and Thornton battle for the LG and C spots.  I think all of them are pretty good at their proper C and G positions.   T is where Reitz and Nixon really struggled. 

 

That's 8 Olineman.  Promote John to the roster and draft a backup T in the later rounds.  Put him on the PS to promote to the 53 in case of injury.

 

IF MEWHORT CAN PLAY RT as well as a healthy Cherilous did, this plan works.  The new vet at RG improves the quality of the line.  Every G that has played next to AC over the years has played well, so I would expect Holmes, Nixon, Harrison, or Reitz to play well there too.

 

So we're down to whether or not Holmes or Harrison can play the C spot...and I think they can.

 

The line has now been fixed with no extra FA money or high draft picks spent.  Use them on LBs, S, or WRs.

[Superman]

At this point, this is what I would do:

 

Put Mewhort at RT. 

 

Cut Gosder and his balky knee and use his 5 mil cap money to sign a veteran next to Mewhort at RG.  Resign AC. 

 

Let Holmes, Harrison, Reitz, Nixon, and Thornton battle for the LG and C spots.  I think all of them are pretty good at their proper C and G positions.   T is where Reitz and Nixon really struggled. 

 

That's 8 Olineman.  Promote John to the roster and draft a backup T in the later rounds.  Put him on the PS to promote to the 53 in case of injury.

 

IF MEWHORT CAN PLAY RT as well as a healthy Cherilous did, this plan works.  The new vet at RG improves the quality of the line.  Every G that has played next to AC over the years has played well, so I would expect Holmes, Nixon, Harrison, or Reitz to play well there too.

 

So we're down to whether or not Holmes or Harrison can play the C spot...and I think they can.

 

The line has now been fixed with no extra FA money or high draft picks spent.  Use them on LBs, S, or WRs.

 

I think Mewhort is best at guard. I think he can play RT if necessary, but I'd rather optimize him on the interior. The way I look at is we need to draft a RT and let everyone else battle it out at RG. I think Holmes is the center, but give him some competition as well.

 

I'm with you on Cherilus, unless he's significantly better in the playoffs. He can be a post-June 1 release, dead money in 2015 is $2.9m, and another $5.8m in 2016. Ouch, but there's no reason to pay him another $4m in 2015 if he's not going to give us consistently average RT play. 

[DougDew]

I think Mewhort is best at guard. I think he can play RT if necessary, but I'd rather optimize him on the interior. The way I look at is we need to draft a RT and let everyone else battle it out at RG. I think Holmes is the center, but give him some competition as well.

 

I'm with you on Cherilus, unless he's significantly better in the playoffs. He can be a post-June 1 release, dead money in 2015 is $2.9m, and another $5.8m in 2016. Ouch, but there's no reason to pay him another $4m in 2015 if he's not going to give us consistently average RT play. 

IF Mewhort can play RT well as Cherilous did last year, I'd rather have him there.  Decent Gs are easier and cheaper to find than Ts, and I'd rather improve other parts of the team if we can upgrade RT play from within.

 

I think Mewhort is 6.6, which I think is more of  T body type.  And since he will likely get stronger and heavier from his rookie year, it seems like it might be his future.  Diem wasn't the quickest guy, and had his bad moments, but he did well for the Colts for many years. 

[YOUR GM]

I think Mewhort is best at guard. I think he can play RT if necessary, but I'd rather optimize him on the interior. The way I look at is we need to draft a RT and let everyone else battle it out at RG. I think Holmes is the center, but give him some competition as well.

I'm with you on Cherilus, unless he's significantly better in the playoffs. He can be a post-June 1 release, dead money in 2015 is $2.9m, and another $5.8m in 2016. Ouch, but there's no reason to pay him another $4m in 2015 if he's not going to give us consistently average RT play.

Your perspective regarding how we move forward with the offensive line now sounds eerily similar to what I and many others were saying an off-season ago. Particularly about giving the young players competition, which you seemed to disagree with back then. Not trying to pick on you, but I have to admit I kinda laughed when I read this post from you

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Cherilus was a part of the 3rd worst rated pass blocking tackle tandem last season. So clearly he wasn`t very good last season. !

 Mewhort and Cherilus are not very good so this is a dud.

 

Apparently you don't know football very well Mewhort has played very well & Cherilus was good last year OK this year I think battling some injuries!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I like if by the first playoff game we have Castonzo, Mewhort, Holmes, Thornton, and Cherilus as the Oline, we won't be great but we can move the ball.  I think that is our best combination.

Honestly I like this line except I would start Reitz over Thornton.  I am little disappointed in Thornton's growth so far & his injuries!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

At this point, this is what I would do:

 

Put Mewhort at RT. 

 

Cut Gosder and his balky knee and use his 5 mil cap money to sign a veteran next to Mewhort at RG.  Resign AC. 

 

Let Holmes, Harrison, Reitz, Nixon, and Thornton battle for the LG and C spots.  I think all of them are pretty good at their proper C and G positions.   T is where Reitz and Nixon really struggled. 

 

That's 8 Olineman.  Promote John to the roster and draft a backup T in the later rounds.  Put him on the PS to promote to the 53 in case of injury.

 

IF MEWHORT CAN PLAY RT as well as a healthy Cherilous did, this plan works.  The new vet at RG improves the quality of the line.  Every G that has played next to AC over the years has played well, so I would expect Holmes, Nixon, Harrison, or Reitz to play well there too.

 

So we're down to whether or not Holmes or Harrison can play the C spot...and I think they can.

 

The line has now been fixed with no extra FA money or high draft picks spent.  Use them on LBs, S, or WRs.

This is interesting!!