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Good points, however, although we're all thrilled with today's D performance, Luck was clobbered with a poor OL and ineffective running game and a still mostly porous defense his first two years. Quite frankly, I am not so sure Manning would have survived the I onslought that Luck has so far survived.

Our line has been atrocious since 2007 after Glenn retired. It gradually got worse year by year until, finally, it's now decent again.

 

Manning was running for his life his last two-three years here and still put on a show. Oh, and we couldn't run the ball, either. Makes things real great for a QB when you can't run, are one dimensional, and can't pass block.

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Manning has the cerebral edge, but all of those playoff losses leave such a sour taste in my mouth. Not to say Luck has been pitch perfect in the playoffs, but I feel he always gives us a chance. Manning would often come out flat and stay flat. Either we were clicking or we weren't. We were robotic in our execution. There wasn't anything organic about it. Everything was based on timing, but when that timing was thrown off we would often look absolutely pitiful. Luck being reckless, which can at times be detrimental to our offensive success(not to mention extremely frustrating to watch), makes us more dangerous and harder to figure out. However, I will say that Luck is incredibly lucky to have the team that he has. This might be the most complete team we've had in Indy since '05.

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Did Manning have any of the issues that Luck has now?

 

Interceptions. Trying to force the ball in to dangerous and ill-advised areas of the field. Yeah, Manning had the same issues. However, I feel Manning was far more precise, but I don't believe the numbers exactly back that up. I see worse throws from Luck than I remember from Manning this early on.

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Interceptions. Trying to force the ball in to dangerous and ill-advised areas of the field. Yeah, Manning had the same issues. However, I feel Manning was far more precise, but I don't believe the numbers exactly back that up. I see worse throws from Luck than I remember from Manning this early on.

I still remember Manning saying once one of the hardest things he ever had to learn was that an incomplete pass or a sack wasn't a bad play.  Luck has yet to completely learn that.

 

I would say Luck still struggles with being accurate more than I remember that being an issue for Manning. 

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Our line has been atrocious since 2007 after Glenn retired. It gradually got worse year by year until, finally, it's now decent again.

 

Manning was running for his life his last two-three years here and still put on a show. Oh, and we couldn't run the ball, either. Makes things real great for a QB when you can't run, are one dimensional, and can't pass block.

 

I think Glenn leaving cost us at least 1 Super Bowl appearance. Guy broke my heart.

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Interceptions. Trying to force the ball in to dangerous and ill-advised areas of the field. Yeah, Manning had the same issues. However, I feel Manning was far more precise, but I don't believe the numbers exactly back that up. I see worse throws from Luck than I remember from Manning this early on.

I think I agree with some of that. Although Manning threw more ints, and had a knack for some horrible interceptions in the red zone, I think that Manning was ahead of Luck, generally speaking, at putting the ball in the exact right place, hitting receivers in stride. I think Luck often still throws high or with not quite as good of ball placement moreso than Manning did at the same point in their careers. That makes it tough to pick Luck and his athletic advantages this far in

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I still remember Manning saying once one of the hardest things he ever had to learn was that an incomplete pass or a sack wasn't a bad play.  Luck has yet to completely learn that.

 

I would say Luck still struggles with being accurate more than I remember that being an issue for Manning. 

 

I went to the Baltimore game and his interception that went off Bradshaw is a prime example of this. All we needed was a field goal. We were dominating the game. He should have simply run out of bounds or thrown the ball away...but he didn't. 

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I went to the Baltimore game and his interception that went off Bradshaw is a prime example of this. All we needed was a field goal. We were dominating the game. He should have simply run out of bounds or thrown the ball away...but he didn't. 

Yep, he had one of those plays today he was getting sacked and he just lobbed the ball out there.  He's had those plays picked before and will have them picked again if he keeps doing that.

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Good points, however, although we're all thrilled with today's D performance, Luck was clobbered with a poor OL and ineffective running game and a still mostly porous defense his first two years. Quite frankly, I am not so sure Manning would have survived the I onslought that Luck has so far survived.

 

Manning was considered to have one of the fastest releases in the NFL since he was in year 2 or 3.  Peyton played with equally atrocious OL's -- he just was much faster at making his decisions and letting the ball out of his hand.  The upside of this is that it allowed Manning to stay healthy for a long time (Manning took a lot of shots, too -- I remember Michael Strahan saying he thought Manning was just as tough as Brett Favre and that he could really take a hit) and it often times resulted in offensive success.  The downside is that Manning was very timing and route-precision based, he threw to predetermined spots a lot of time -- meaning if a receiver ran a wrong route or if timing was disrupted, Peyton was prone to throw a pick.  Luck sometimes holds the ball too long, but because he is elusive in the pocket and big/strong/mobile, it sometimes allows plays to develop and we get a good result out of it.  Luck doesn't depend on precise timing/route running like Manning did, a lot of times his WR's are altering their routes to find open spaces in the defense which sometimes leads to great things or sometimes trouble.

 

Interceptions. Trying to force the ball in to dangerous and ill-advised areas of the field. Yeah, Manning had the same issues. However, I feel Manning was far more precise, but I don't believe the numbers exactly back that up. I see worse throws from Luck than I remember from Manning this early on.

 

One thing where Luck should benefit from being on a team is reducing his INTs.  Peyton's defenses were always so bad that he knew if he didn't score that the other team would get the ball and score on our D and had to force a lot of throws.  Luck should feel comfortable throwing the ball away or running if he has to on a 3rd down because our D has been good enough to give him some confidence that they can make a stop.

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I think I agree with some of that. Although Manning threw more ints, and had a knack for some horrible interceptions in the red zone, I think that Manning was ahead of Luck, generally speaking, at putting the ball in the exact right place, hitting receivers in stride. I think Luck often still throws high or with not quite as good of ball placement moreso than Manning did at the same point in their careers. That makes it tough to pick Luck and his athletic advantages this far in

 

Unfortunately, I'm a little jaded about Manning's Colts, so I'm probably giving Luck more credit than he deserves and Manning not nearly enough. Saying that, I still love Luck's tools and his humility. Luck had the unenviable task of replacing the Colt's version of Bob Knight and despite having a weak talent pool his first two seasons he was able to will us to victory in ways Manning did not that early in his career. I'm extremely indebted to him, rough edges and all.

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I've been thinking about Luck's propensity to throw into double-coverage and just make poor decisions that make you shake your head at times. I don't think it's quite hit him that he doesn't have to do it all anymore. I think he's still in the same mindset of his rookie year where everything was riding on his shoulders. It probably taught him some poor habits. Idk, just a theory.

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Manning has the cerebral edge, but all of those playoff losses leave such a sour taste in my mouth. Not to say Luck has been pitch perfect in the playoffs, but I feel he always gives us a chance. Manning would often come out flat and stay flat. Either we were clicking or we weren't. We were robotic in our execution. There wasn't anything organic about it. Everything was based on timing, but when that timing was thrown off we would often look absolutely pitiful. Luck being reckless, which can at times be detrimental to our offensive success(not to mention extremely frustrating to watch), makes us more dangerous and harder to figure out. However, I will say that Luck is incredibly lucky to have the team that he has. This might be the most complete team we've had in Indy since '05.

I understand what you are trying to convey. It seems as though Luck would be able to improvise a little more which would probably give him the edge in games like the 05 playoff loss to the Steelers.

But Manning lit teams up like the Broncos in back to back years and Kansas City.

I don't think the physicality that would knock the receivers off of timing routes would be as effective at stifling Luck as it does with Manning. There is an improvising, gun-slinging aspect that Luck has that Manning lacks.

You can also see this aspect with Eli Manning. That may be why Manning has only one ring.

Although I would probably take Manning over Luck, I can see Luck doing better in last years Super Bowl than Manning, due to this.

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I've been thinking about Luck's propensity to throw into double-coverage and just make poor decisions that make you shake your head at times. I don't think it's quite hit him that he doesn't have to do it all anymore. I think he's still in the same mindset of his rookie year where everything was riding on his shoulders. It probably taught him some poor habits. Idk, just a theory.

I'd say he's still only in year three.  He still has more growing to do and sometimes i think we as fans forget how young he is.  Look at Manning, he had a big break out season in his second year and then kinda regressed a little bit (well not really came back down to earth would be more like it) and then in 03 and 04 it really clicked with him and he really became the Peyton Manning we know and love.  That was a good six or seven years into Manning's career. 

 

We don't know what the finished product of Luck will look like  What we do know is that he's showing all the signs of being the next great QB in the NFL.  Just sit back and enjoy. 

 

I will say I think Luck handles pressure better than Peyton and I don't mean pass rush pressure I mean pressure pressure.  He's more of the Tom Brady mold in that department.  It doesn't effect him.  It clearly has an impact on Manning. 

 

I do like the fact Luck got the playoff win under his belt.  I think Luck might not put up the stat like Manning did for several reasons first the Colts offense isn't built to put up stats like Manning did nor does it demand that Luck does.  Also, Luck's style of play (more ability to pull it down and run if needed) doesn't lend himself to it but I think Luck's teams might have more success in the playoffs because I think Luck and the style the Colts play lends it's self to more success in the playoffs. 

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Did Manning have any of the issues that Luck has now?

He sure did. He was an interception machine (but a really really talented one) until Dungy was hired. Manning was more accurate at this point. I think Luck's accuracy issues are usually attributed to him throwing off balance. At the same time Luck's ability to sense and escape pressure and throw while being hit is unbelievable. Its something I sure havnt seen since ive been watching football.

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Luck for me and it's not even freaking close.

 

I will take the nerdy intellectual quiet team guy who isn't an all American national hyped up golden boy ANY day of the week.  

 

Besides, this Colts team is hot.......red smoking hot. On fire. I will take our current team set up any day of the week over the past teams we had.

 

Not to mention......Luck has been GREAT this year. And with him we have a real future. 

 

 

:hat:

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Wait, I am supposed to evaluate 2 3rd year players knowing that one will eventually set the all time record for throwing TDs?

I'd take Luck over Manning today if you hand me a couple of fresh 5 (or even three)- year contracts. Andrew is (amazingly) ahead of where Peyton was at during this stage in his career, but you can't take certain things (like being an all-time great and playing for 15 years at an elite level) for granted.

If I understand your question correctly, I'd take #18 instantly with no remorse... I think Luck is an elite NFL talent right now and had the potential to be on that list of top 5 guys ever when it's all said and done, but it would be crazy to take him over Manning if you knew beforehand what kind of greatness and longevity Manning would exhibit in his career.

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A quick aside, nice to see the kind of discussion I was looking for, now. <applauds>

(The post above me excepted.)

 

Just to double check then you wouldn't like us to lock the thread any more? :P

 

I'm afraid part of the risk of posting a topic is that posters are free to reply as they see fit as long as they stay within the rules. 

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I'm pretty sure most people are tired of doing this same old song and dance

i guess that's how I see this. The choice has been made and as I pointed out it has worked out for everyone but RG3, the Redskins, and the Rams.

Peyton is still great and made the Broncos better

Andrew Luck is going to be great and the Colts have been a head of schedule since he got here so I don't really see how anyone can complain.

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i guess that's how I see this. The choice has been made and as I pointed out it has worked out for everyone but RG3, the Redskins, and the Rams.

Peyton is still great and made the Broncos better

Andrew Luck is going to be great and the Colts have been a head of schedule since he got here so I don't really see how anyone can complain.

I think you keep missing the point, for the choice cannot have been made in real life ... the choice being discussed by those that are on topic is whether to move forward from this point on with Luck, or to move forward from this point forward with a 2.5 years of experience Manning via time machining that young Manning into today's Colts.

You seem to be wrongly stuck on the real decision of letting Manning go and drafting Luck over RG3, none of which has anything to do with the thread topic.

As for whether or not this thread should be locked, after that initial musing

by me, a whole bunch of people have showed up to participate on topic, fully understanding the topic. Admittedly,though, if I could edit the thread title, I'd have entitled the thread "Luck vs Time Machined Manning with 2.5 years experience - who would bring more success to the Colts moving forward?"

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I don't think Luck is going to be better than Manning. It seems as though Manning eats, sleeps, breathes and craps football. Football is his life. He is a master.

I think Luck's mobility is a little over rated.

Manning makes up his lack of mobility with his quick release and his knowledge of where to go with the football.

With the knowledge of what Manning will do in the future, it is hard to pick Luck over Manning.

Besides being more mobile, I'm not sure what Luck does that trumps Manning.

Luck's mobility is not over rated. He's not viewed as mobile as Russell or kaepernick.  But he's got good feet and he has good speed for someone who's 240 lbs  You have seen some of the plays he's made right?  The touchdown agains the Seahawks?  The TD against the Chiefs?

 

Peyton is one of a kind.  The last of the QBs that calls the game from the line of scrimmage.  Luck could be the best of his generation which is a completely different era with different expectations for the QB position.  If Luck can clean up his decision making and continue to work on his mechanics, he's got the physical tools that Peyton could only dream about, he'll be the GOAT of the next generation

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Luck and the new systems being built around him, hands down. Right now, the only reason the Colts are not dominant is their red zone issues that have kept opponents in games (Ravens) or handed our opponents wins (Broncos, Eagles games). If we are talking 2.5 years into Peyton and Luck's careers, Peyton's team was not nearly built as fast and as well as Luck's and that is a BIG credit to Grigson and that has singularly been the biggest factor why the Colts have exceeded expectations ever since Luck was drafted.

 

Down the road in Luck's and Peyton's careers, with the "sit back and take it" defense that Dungy endorsed and "wont touch free agency to boost team talent with role players and will neglect special teams" approach of Bill Polian, a lot of good talent on the team was bound to come up short come playoff time with Peyton. We did not have many other ways to win games other than offense, whether it was defensive scoring or special teams scoring. The team being built around Luck is more likely to do that come playoff time.

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I respect and love Peyton for all he did in Indianapolis. He's a class act and does everything the right way. 

 

But seriously, how could that transition from Manning to Luck went any other way? 

 

If we keep Manning (and his cap hit) does our defense look this good? I seriously doubt it.

Do you let the best prospect since John Elway slip your grasp and regret it for more than a decade? 

You can't draft Luck and have him sit behind Manning. That'd be a waste. 

 

 

I give major props to Irsay for having the cajones to pull the trigger and let Manning walk and draft Luck over RGKnee. Excellent vision by him...and many moons ago when he picked Manning over Leaf. 

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I respect and love Peyton for all he did in Indianapolis. He's a class act and does everything the right way. 

 

But seriously, how could that transition from Manning to Luck went any other way? 

 

If we keep Manning (and his cap hit) does our defense look this good? I seriously doubt it.

Do you let the best prospect since John Elway slip your grasp and regret it for more than a decade? 

You can't draft Luck and have him sit behind Manning. That'd be a waste. 

 

 

I give major props to Irsay for having the cajones to pull the trigger and let Manning walk and draft Luck over RGKnee. Excellent vision by him...and many moons ago when he picked Manning over Leaf. 

 

 

It was never brought up as Irsay had to make his decision in March. However , I can't believe an agent worth his salt would let Luck sign with the Colts if Manning had been resigned. That would have meant 3 years on the bench and Luck would be far better off just sitting the year out. It for sure would have been interesting but I'm glad it never happened.

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Luck and the new systems being built around him, hands down. Right now, the only reason the Colts are not dominant is their red zone issues that have kept opponents in games (Ravens) or handed our opponents wins (Broncos, Eagles games). If we are talking 2.5 years into Peyton and Luck's careers, Peyton's team was not nearly built as fast and as well as Luck's and that is a BIG credit to Grigson and that has singularly been the biggest factor why the Colts have exceeded expectations ever since Luck was drafted.

 

Down the road in Luck's and Peyton's careers, with the "sit back and take it" defense that Dungy endorsed and "wont touch free agency to boost team talent with role players and will neglect special teams" approach of Bill Polian, a lot of good talent on the team was bound to come up short come playoff time with Peyton. We did not have many other ways to win games other than offense, whether it was defensive scoring or special teams scoring. The team being built around Luck is more likely to do that come playoff time.

 

You make good valid points about their respective teams.  If we time machined the young Manning into this CURRENT team, though, do you think that young Manning or Luck would be more successful moving forward?

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Very hard to choose from the two. Peyton and Luck gave you the same feeling no matter how much we were down we still had a chance. Peyton can mask a weak OLIne WR etc... Better then Luck can. Physically though Luck can stay in pocket or run over people. Hmm if I was GM and those two choices I would just say F it and start teo QBs lol

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Who gets most tds this year out of luck and manning very intriguing

I am reluctant to get into this but it will be Manning and it won't be close. They are tied at 19 but Manning has played one less game than Luck. This is not a knock on Andrew but Denver and Manning are TD machines even if their schedule is a bit more difficult. Luck will pad his numbers in the AFC South games but I still think Manning will be around 50 TDs or more. Now if you want to talk yards, Luck may actually win that battle. Again, the six soft games against the AFC South makes most of this possible.

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I'm just glad we can stop talking Luck vs RG III, Luck vs Tannehill, Luck vs Wilson, etc.

I'm ready to start talking Luck vs Manning, Luck vs Rogers, and Luck vs Brees.

Still to this day can't believe people had the audacity to believe a WR turned QB could really be in the same class as Andrew. :facepalm:

Society is failing

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