Denver CB Harris says Wilson is better than Luck [Merge]

[sweetsurrender]

"They"

Who is they?

Management.

[azcolt]

Someday we will actually need a pass rush. Not today though. This guy is awful.

[azcolt]

Someday we will actually need a pass rush. Not today though. This guy is awful.

[azcolt]

Someday we will actually need a pass rush. Not today though. This guy is awful.

[runthepost]

Luck vs wilson

[TAPLOOK]

They tanked without question and Colts fans were quite proud about it at the time. It was Ryan Grigson's call and part of Chuck Pagano's deal. Wink wink. Lets not kid ourselves. The Colts sold their soul for a top of the second tier QB.  

[Clem-Dog]

This thread is/was about a comparison, not whether the Colts tanked or not. Is it normal to hijack a thread in order to win an argument.

[GoPats]

Proper care of a Colts fan:

 

1. Don't get them wet.

2. Don't feed them after midnight.

3. Don't suggest that effort was lacking in 2011.

4. Don't opine that anyone is better than their QB.

 

;) 

[jvan1973]

I don't want to rehash all the tanking talk. Suffice to say that I think they did tank. Indy reporters did as well as national reporters. There were several games were the game plans were not there or the effort from the players. Remember the Saints shellacking? We can just agree to disagree.

This argument is so absurd. If the management had decided to tank i doubt they would have all been fired. Polian would have certainly said by now that Irsay told them to tank Think a little bit

[jvan1973]

Management.

you mean the guys who were all fired after the season? Yeah, I'm sure they were all in on tanking a season that got them fired

[amfootball]

This argument is so absurd. If the management had decided to tank i doubt they would have all been fired. Polian would have certainly said by now that Irsay told them to tank Think a little bit

You need to think a bi there. Polian knew he was gone as soon as Manning had his fourth neck surgery. He was not going to be the GM post-Manning. Tanking goes on all the time in sports and people in positions of power understand the game. When a once in a generation pick is sitting there, you get him. Everyone that was fired from the Colts found employment elsewhere.

[jvan1973]

You need to think a bi there. Polian knew he was gone as soon as Manning had his fourth neck surgery. He was not going to be the GM post-Manning. Tanking goes on all the time in sports and people in positions of power understand the game. When a once in a generation pick is sitting there, you get him. Everyone that was fired from the Colts found employment elsewhere.

No Polian didn't know. He and peyton have said as much. Polian was with peyton in the training room when he was summoned to Irsays office. Management did not tank the season. The final week of the season almost cost them the number one pick

[TAPLOOK]

They tanked without question and Colts fans were quite proud about it at the time. It was Ryan Grigson's call and part of Chuck Pagano's deal. Wink wink. Lets not kid ourselves. The Colts sold their soul for a top of the second tier QB.  

 

 

Polian (shady as they come) and a lame duck Caldwell.Pleeeeeease. 

[Dustin]

You need to think a bit there.

You should take your own advice.

[jvan1973]

Polian (shady as they come) and a lame duck Caldwell.Pleeeeeease.

Polian has been given the chance on ESPN to admit to tanking the season and has not. He is pretty bitter about being fired and I'm sure would have hinted at the very least that irsay told him to tank. Not to mention they won two of their last three and almost cost them the pick

And Caldwell was still under contract so no he wasn't a lame duck coach

[amfootball]

No Polian didn't know. He and peyton have said as much. Polian was with peyton in the training room when he was summoned to Irsays office. Management did not tank the season. The final week of the season almost cost them the number one pick

What do you expect Polian to say? Again, Irsay's decision and as an owner he would have been a fool to not get Luck.

[amfootball]

Polian has been given the chance on ESPN to admit to tanking the season and has not. He is pretty bitter about being fired and I'm sure would have hinted at the very least that irsay told him to tank. Not to mention they won two of their last three and almost cost them the pick

And Caldwell was still under contract so no he wasn't a lame duck coach

Polian was not being fired for 2011 solely but the seasons prior. As you guys so often like to remind me, the Colts were declining for years before Manning's neck gave out and he was singlehandedly willing them to the post-season season after season.

[House]

Proper care of a Colts fan:

1. Don't get them wet.

2. Don't feed them after midnight.

3. Don't suggest that effort was lacking in 2011.

4. Don't opine that anyone is better than their QB.

;)

Change Colts fan to Pats fan.

Change 3 to "Don't ever mention Spygate. Literally ever."

And I think you're on to something here.

[OffensivelyPC]

Proper care of a Colts fan:

 

1. Don't get them wet.

2. Don't feed them after midnight.

3. Don't suggest that effort was lacking in 2011.

4. Don't opine that anyone is better than their QB.

 

;) 

Isn't that pretty much the same thing for Pats fans, except change #3 to something about recording practices of your opponent?

[OffensivelyPC]

Change Colts fan to Pats fan.

Change 3 to "Don't ever mention Spygate. Literally ever."

And I think you're on to something here.

Beat me to it.

[dw49]

Polian was not being fired for 2011 solely but the seasons prior. As you guys so often like to remind me, the Colts were declining for years before Manning's neck gave out and he was singlehandedly willing them to the post-season season after season.

 

 

A serious congratulation to you on this post. You have flooded this 15 page piece of garbage thread with posts. Finally you have one that rings true. Imagine 15 pages that started with some * CB that was just beaten by a team and said that QB was better than the one his team beat two weeks ago. I mean great sample size there buddy. 

[jvan1973]

Polian was not being fired for 2011 solely but the seasons prior. As you guys so often like to remind me, the Colts were declining for years before Manning's neck gave out and he was singlehandedly willing them to the post-season season after season.

Ok, what does that have to do with tanking? Polian didn't tell the coaches and players to tank so they could draft a rookie qb.

[amfootball]

A serious congratulation to you on this post. You have flooded this 15 page piece of garbage thread with posts. Finally you have one that rings true. Imagine 15 pages that started with some * CB that was just beaten by a team and said that QB was better than the one his team beat two weeks ago. I mean great sample size there buddy. 

Yeah, the Denver CB was just bitter. He was never asked about Luck which is the part that was interesting. He offered that up himself.

[dw49]

Yeah, the Denver CB was just bitter. He was never asked about Luck which is the part that was interesting. He offered that up himself.

 

 

I would love to be able to wager about 50K with these few Seattle fans that resounded that Wilson is indeed better. The bet could simply be decided with a question to the 32 football GM's. Simply ask the question "who would be the player you would start your franchise with." I'd even give the Seattle guys the benefit of the doubt and let Luck go against the rest of the younger players in the NFL. I have a feeling at this point in time probably upwards of 25 out of 32 would be a safe bet.

[amfootball]

I would love to be able to wager about 50K with these few Seattle fans that resounded that Wilson is indeed better. The bet could simply be decided with a question to the 32 football GM's. Simply ask the question "who would be the player you would start your franchise with." I'd even give the Seattle guys the benefit of the doubt and let Luck go against the rest of the younger guys in the NFL. I have a feeling at this point in time probably upwards of 25 out of 32 would be a safe bet.

I get what you saying but NFL GMs are wrong all the time. At this point, it is obvious that Wilson should have been taken in the first round yet he fell to third. I do think you are right that the GMs right now would take Luck but I guess time will ultimately prove who is better. Luck is off to a scorching start this season and of course Wilson had the big comeback vs Denver. It will be fun to watch it play out.

 

It is ironic that discussion is taking place with Luck and Wilson and not RG. Who would have thought that back in 2012?

[GoPats]

Change Colts fan to Pats fan.

Change 3 to "Don't ever mention Spygate. Literally ever."

And I think you're on to something here.

 

Isn't that pretty much the same thing for Pats fans, except change #3 to something about recording practices of your opponent?

 

Well of course... duh.  ;)

[dw49]

I get what you saying but NFL GMs are wrong all the time. At this point, it is obvious that Wilson should have been taken in the first round yet he fell to third. I do think you are right that the GMs right now would take Luck but I guess time will ultimately prove who is better. Luck is off to a scorching start this season and of course Wilson had the big comeback vs Denver. It will be fun to watch it play out.

 

It is ironic that discussion is taking place with Luck and Wilson and not RG. Who would have thought that back in 2012?

 

 

If the GM's don't have the answer , then not worth even discussing. Who would know better than smart people that spend 24-7 evaluating talent ? Wilson for sure is good , very good. But he really didn't "fall" to the 3rd. I never once saw him projected to go as high as round 2. Kiper and PPW had him 4th or even 5th. So getting technical on you... can't fall from the top od a ladder from a rung in the middle. 

 

Anyway there is just no way teams are going to draft 5'11" inch QB's in the first round. It's just very seldom that they succeed in today's NFL. Even as good as Wilson is , you often can see how it hurts him. All that running around keeping plays alive is often due to the fact that he can't see the whole field. But as you say , the guy was a steal and if they did a re-draft he would be 1.2. I think what makes him a lot different from other QB's that short is the fact that he has hands uncommonly big for a guy of that stature. So this makes for him to have a better arm than most others that tried to play the position at 5'11".

[Shane Bond]

You need to think a bi there. Polian knew he was gone as soon as Manning had his fourth neck surgery. He was not going to be the GM post-Manning. Tanking goes on all the time in sports and people in positions of power understand the game. When a once in a generation pick is sitting there, you get him. Everyone that was fired from the Colts found employment elsewhere.

If tanking was in mind, they would have gone 0-16. There were 2 other teams who were close to no 1 draft pick till the end.

[amfootball]

If the GM's don't have the answer , then not worth even discussing. Who would know better than smart people that spend 24-7 evaluating talent ? Wilson for sure is good , very good. But he really didn't "fall" to the 3rd. I never once saw him projected to go as high as round 2. Kiper and PPW had him 4th or even 5th. So getting technical on you... can't fall from the top od a ladder from a rung in the middle. 

 

Anyway there is just no way teams are going to draft 5'11" inch QB's in the first round. It's just very seldom that they succeed in today's NFL. Even as good as Wilson is , you often can see how it hurts him. All that running around keeping plays alive is often due to the fact that he can't see the whole field. But as you say , the guy was a steal and if they did a re-draft he would be 1.2. I think what makes him a lot different from other QB's that short is the fact that he has hands uncommonly big for a guy of that stature. So this makes for him to have a better arm than most others that tried to play the position at 5'11".

I don't know if it is always that black and white. If we are just going on the physical abilities then of course Luck is better hands down. But a you know, the QB position is based as much, maybe more so on the cerebral. So, taking that into account, I think Wilson measures very high on the mental side even if his physical abilities are not up to Luck's stature. At this point, he is the more sound QB than Luck. He makes less mistakes, is more efficient, and plays very good situationally. In other words, he does everything to help your team win ball games. Luck does those things but just not as consistently as Wilson and has a penchant for turning the ball over and taking too long to find the open receiver. And of course, Wilson does play on the better team too but you get my drift.

 

I still think it is too early but really, kudos to Wilson for what he has achieved already as an undersized third round pick. To even be in this discussion is a credit to him given like I said, we all thought it would be Luck/RG for the next decade.

[dw49]

I don't know if it is always that black and white. If we are just going on the physical abilities then of course Luck is better hands down. But a you know, the QB position is based as much, maybe more so on the cerebral. So, taking that into account, I think Wilson measures very high on the mental side even if his physical abilities are not up to Luck's stature. At this point, he is the more sound QB than Luck. He makes less mistakes, is more efficient, and plays very good situationally. In other words, he does everything to help your team win ball games. Luck does those things but just not as consistently as Wilson and has a penchant for turning the ball over and taking too long to find the open receiver. And of course, Wilson does play on the better team too but you get my drift.

 

I still think it is too early but really, kudos to Wilson for what he has achieved already as an undersized third round pick. To even be in this discussion is a credit to him given like I said, we all thought it would be Luck/RG for the next decade.

 

 

 

Argument can be made for the above. BUT....if when you are asked to do a lot less , you can look very "mistake free " and smart. I would love to see Wilson's turnover rate if he was behind Samson Satele executing Bruce Arian's game plan in 2012. Also , sometime the "open receiver" is not open. Also to say that " has a penchant for turning the ball over " is kinda unfair as your basing that off 2 playoff games that the Colts were way behind in. Plus a few of those were bad routes run by inexperienced WR's

[amfootball]

Argument can be made for the above. BUT....if when you are asked to do a lot less , you can look very "mistake free " and smart. I would love to see Wilson's turnover rate if he was behind Samson Satele executing Bruce Arian's game plan in 2012. Also , sometime the "open receiver" is not open. 

That is valid. But I would counter that Seattle does not have a very good offense especially compared with the weapons that Luck has this year. Wilson also missed his best receiver in Harvin all of last year until the post-season. But he does have that great defense which goes a long way.

 

I guess I would ask you this, what in his game would make you believe that he could not do more if asked?

[dw49]

That is valid. But I would counter that Seattle does not have a very good offense especially compared with the weapons that Luck has this year. Wilson also missed his best receiver in Harvin all of last year until the post-season. But he does have that great defense which goes a long way.

 

I guess I would ask you this, what in his game would make you believe that he could not do more if asked?

 

 

Are Luke's "weapons" really that wonderful ? Sluggish running game and when Montcrief is not on the field they can rotate S help to Hilton and you have Nicks , Wayne or a TE that has to get separation. But yeah .. I think he's got better receivers than Wilson. And yes , I think Wilson could do more if asked. He's a really god QB .. no doubt. My point is that Luck will be throwing more balls that maybe he shouldn't as a result of he needs to put more points up the Wilson does. Right now Wilson has 1 int. I'm saying if he played for the Colts , he would probably have more than that. He would also have more TD passes and more yards. Just saying that  when more of a teams success is put on the QB , he has to gamble a bit more.. play less conservative. This obviously makes for more turnovers than the guy that has a great defense and that team ALSO uses the run to set up the pass. Don't know how much you see of the Colts but sometimes defenses just ignore a Luck play action and continue straight to him. I think Pep and Chuck finally just agreed to have the pass set up the run...  Just so different. And like I say , if you disregard the 2 play off games where I bet truth be known , half those ints were on the receiver .. it's statically crazy to say Luck is a high turnover QB.

[amfootball]

Are Luke's "weapons" really that wonderful ? Sluggish running game and when Montcrief is not on the field they can rotate S help to Hilton and you have Nicks , Wayne or a TE that has to get separation. But yeah .. I think he's got better receivers than Wilson. And yes , I think Wilson could do more if asked. He's a really god QB .. no doubt. My point is that Luck will be throwing more balls that maybe he shouldn't as a result of he needs to put more points up the Wilson does. Right now Wilson has 1 int. I'm saying if he played for the Colts , he would probably have more than that. He would also have more TD passes and more yards. Just saying that  when more of a teams success is put on the QB , he has to gamble a bit more.. play less conservative. This obviously makes for more turnovers than the guy that has a great defense and that team ALSO uses the run to set up the pass. Don't know how much you see of the Colts but sometimes defenses just ignore a Luck play action and continue straight to him. I think Pep and Chuck finally just agreed to have the pass set up the run...  Just so different. And like I say , if you disregard the 2 play off games where I bet truth be known , half those ints were on the receiver .. it's statically crazy to say Luck is a high turnover QB.

Yes, having the D is huge for Wilson. That being said, his D is ranked 14 right now in points allowed and they are at 2-1 with a win over Denver. I guess we will have to see how it plays out but I think he will end up having to do more this year.

 

I can't figure out your offensively philosophy for the life of me. Against Denver you go as conservative as possible and then on Sunday you do an onside kick and have Luck flinging it like he is Marino. I have always felt that the Colts are in no man's land. I think they want to ride Luck but Irsay was so bent on the Colts not winning in a Manning-like fashion that they have tried to establish a run game that is not there in terms of the RB or the line. I don't get it. I wonder if Luck's first year with Arians spooked them when he threw all the picks and took all the hits and they decided to reel it in but really dome teams have to be all out with the O. And you have the QB and skill guys to do it. The defense looks like it is still a work in progress. Do you like the defensive moves Grig's has done? I just don't see a lot of talent on that side of the ball outside of Davis.

[thedude]

They tanked without question and Colts fans were quite proud about it at the time. It was Ryan Grigson's call and part of Chuck Pagano's deal. Wink wink. Lets not kid ourselves. The Colts sold their soul for a top of the second tier QB.  

I have a hard time believing that professional athletes would purposely go along with "tanking" a season. I can understand fans not disapproving of it if they thought there was a reward for doing so, though.

Players all have a pretty strong ego. None of them would purposely let other players beat them and make them look mediocre or worse.

[Andrew Luck's Beard]

They tanked without question and Colts fans were quite proud about it at the time. It was Ryan Grigson's call and part of Chuck Pagano's deal. Wink wink. Lets not kid ourselves. The Colts sold their soul for a top of the second tier QB.

Because a top of the second tier QB is projected to throw for over 5,200 yards and 52 TDs.

[SkyBane]

Yes, having the D is huge for Wilson. That being said, his D is ranked 14 right now in points allowed and they are at 2-1 with a win over Denver. I guess we will have to see how it plays out but I think he will end up having to do more this year.

 

I can't figure out your offensively philosophy for the life of me. Against Denver you go as conservative as possible and then on Sunday you do an onside kick and have Luck flinging it like he is Marino. I have always felt that the Colts are in no man's land. I think they want to ride Luck but Irsay was so bent on the Colts not winning in a Manning-like fashion that they have tried to establish a run game that is not there in terms of the RB or the line. I don't get it. I wonder if Luck's first year with Arians spooked them when he threw all the picks and took all the hits and they decided to reel it in but really dome teams have to be all out with the O. And you have the QB and skill guys to do it. The defense looks like it is still a work in progress. Do you like the defensive moves Grig's has done? I just don't see a lot of talent on that side of the ball outside of Davis.

The defense wouldn't look nearly as bad if there was a better rush LB. The loss of Mathis for the year crippled the unit in that regard, as so far, Werner has been the marquee whiff of the Grigson regime. The D line isn't going to light the world on fire, but it's rock solid and performs it's job as well as you could hope (sometimes better). When Freeman is back and healthy, the ILB's are in the same position. Walden is having a great year so far at OLB, and the corners are arguably one of the most talented groups in that position in the league.

 

Really it comes down to iffy safety and rush LB play, which leaves the coverage linebackers 1v1 vs Tight ends where they get burned, and slow pressure allows the QB to find that TE underneath. Wide receivers are producing at garbage levels against Indy because of the superlative corner play, but that's largely negated by the previous sentence.

 

So overall, because of the way the defensive scheme is set up, and the lack of production from one key position, the defense so far has largely been less than the sum of its parts, imo.

[dw49]

Yes, having the D is huge for Wilson. That being said, his D is ranked 14 right now in points allowed and they are at 2-1 with a win over Denver. I guess we will have to see how it plays out but I think he will end up having to do more this year.

 

I can't figure out your offensively philosophy for the life of me. Against Denver you go as conservative as possible and then on Sunday you do an onside kick and have Luck flinging it like he is Marino. I have always felt that the Colts are in no man's land. I think they want to ride Luck but Irsay was so bent on the Colts not winning in a Manning-like fashion that they have tried to establish a run game that is not there in terms of the RB or the line. I don't get it. I wonder if Luck's first year with Arians spooked them when he threw all the picks and took all the hits and they decided to reel it in but really dome teams have to be all out with the O. And you have the QB and skill guys to do it. The defense looks like it is still a work in progress. Do you like the defensive moves Grig's has done? I just don't see a lot of talent on that side of the ball outside of Davis.

 

 

Your comments on Irsay's probable feelings I think are right on. He was very tired of seeing Luck being hit so often. Plus he for sure thad some pent up OL frustrations from all the Polian blunders attempts at fixing it. I think the Denver game was a result of everything being "off." The offense for sure had not jelled yet. Probably needed more pre season reps. The offensive philosophy appeared to be as you say ... in no man's land and Luck did not play his best. As far as Grigs , man tough to say. When you have that much money to spend in two years , you are going to have some bad signings for sure. Just the nature of the beast. One poster mentions the loss of Mathis . I think if you put Mathis and Arthur Jones on the field right now , you have something pretty acceptable. Although he can be faulted for not having developed a better pass rush minus a 33-34 year old guy. He has at least stopped what was the awful nightmare your team gave to us in January. Put Jones on the field and I don't think teams can cram the ball down our throats anymore.

[dw49]

The defense wouldn't look nearly as bad if there was a better rush LB. The loss of Mathis for the year crippled the unit in that regard, as so far, Werner has been the marquee whiff of the Grigson regime. The D line isn't going to light the world on fire, but it's rock solid and performs it's job as well as you could hope (sometimes better). When Freeman is back and healthy, the ILB's are in the same position. Walden is having a great year so far at OLB, and the corners are arguably one of the most talented groups in that position in the league.

 

Really it comes down to iffy safety and rush LB play, which leaves the coverage linebackers 1v1 vs Tight ends where they get burned, and slow pressure allows the QB to find that TE underneath. Wide receivers are producing at garbage levels against Indy because of the superlative corner play, but that's largely negated by the previous sentence.

 

So overall, because of the way the defensive scheme is set up, and the lack of production from one key position, the defense so far has largely been less than the sum of its parts, imo.

 

 

Good post young man. Pretty much the story as we speak.

[dw49]

They tanked without question and Colts fans were quite proud about it at the time. It was Ryan Grigson's call and part of Chuck Pagano's deal. Wink wink. Lets not kid ourselves. The Colts sold their soul for a top of the second tier QB.  

 

 

 

This post wins the award for the most ignorance in the fewest amount of words.

[TAPLOOK]

Change Colts fan to Pats fan.

Change 3 to "Don't ever mention Spygate. Literally ever."

And I think you're on to something here.

 

Actually Pats fans get a good laugh out of the Spygate crowd.

 

And people can say what they like about Brady. Pats fans know football and are quite secure.