Source says Ray Rice video was sent from law enforcement to NFL back in April

[jvan1973]

So I'm assuming Ravens will be in a whole lot of trouble. Starting with the owner and president.

Why?

[ColtsBlueFL]

The players are the one group of people that I just can't really take seriously on this issue.  For two reasons, the players' criticism seems to me to be more about using this as a platform to oust Goodell.  At every turn, no matter how big or small, there's players criticizing Goodell.  Yet when one of their own gets busted for something, nothing but crickets.  Yeah, they've come out on this one a bit, but that's because every reporter is shoving mics in everyone's faces asking about it.  It's THAT big of a deal to the media.  But when you criticize every move of goodell, the chorus gets old and I can't really take it seriously.  That's especially true when you criticize him for being too harsh, then too lenient when all along, the players collectively bargained to give Roger Goodell the right to oversee player discipline.  Their motives behind their constant outbursts are too biased to be credible IMO. 

 

The other reason I can't really take them serious, and this is really more of a reflection on the NFLPA as opposed to any individual player, is that the NFL takes heavy criticism for its handling of the case.  Fine.  But where was the NFLPA in all this?  Why is it that all the criticism gets placed on the NFL when the NFLPA was fully capable of carrying out its own investigation.  Yet, when there's a video that magically turns up and no one seemed to know about it the NFLPA gets to point the finger and cry foul?  Goodell's failure to know that a copy of the elevator video is no better or worse than the NFLPA's failure to discover the same facts and then later point fingers.

All true. The Ravens themselves could have also performed a more thorough job, especially since Ozzie is on record that Ray Rice told him the whole ugly truth. Yet they did not let Rice go until after the video was leaked and the NFL reversed course and indefinitely suspended him.  That in and of itself leads to a problem with the NFL handling of Ray Rice in knee jerk reaction.  I think you'll Article 46 of the NFL CBA Section 4 is extremely relevant to the disciplinary action against Rice.

 

“Section 4. One Penalty: The Commissioner and a Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct.  The Commissioner’s disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct.”

 

Ray Rice may also be able to put forth a convincing argument that Commissioner Goodell had no right to go from instituting a two-game suspension to an indefinite suspension.  The facts surrounding the act and conduct have not changed.  The only development is the existence of video, which  Goodell claims the NFL did not have nor has he seen until the leak. While the conduct policy is decidedly broad, especially with the unilaterally imposed domestic policy addendum, it is not limitless, and Rice might contend that an elongated suspension based on information the league already knew constitutes “arbitrary and capricious” decision-making.

 

I don't want the NFLPA to start a suit on behalf of Ray Rice if he and his legal team do not pursue it themselves. 

 

And the NFL has to further define when their domestic policy is under violation.  Right now, Hardy was convicted but is on appeal, yet he is still playing and collect a huge paycheck in the interim.  McDonald is under investigation.  Still playing.  At some point the NFL has to make a stand or come off as not really supporting their domestic policy initiative.  The whole thing is a mess everywhere you look.   And Goodell looks incompetent at best, yet is the sole administrator of punishment where in other leagues a separate commission for that purpose and the Commissioner gets involved only on the appeal process.

 

So much to watch now.  Time to pop some popcorn me thinks...

[ColtsBlueFL]

Why?

 

If anything, it would be for breaking Section 4 of Article 46 in the CBA.  See my post right above.

 

Bu even then, I guess the league takes the hit, not the ,should that come to pass.

[Sports Central1]

The players are the one group of people that I just can't really take seriously on this issue.  For two reasons, the players' criticism seems to me to be more about using this as a platform to oust Goodell.  At every turn, no matter how big or small, there's players criticizing Goodell.  Yet when one of their own gets busted for something, nothing but crickets.  Yeah, they've come out on this one a bit, but that's because every reporter is shoving mics in everyone's faces asking about it.  It's THAT big of a deal to the media.  But when you criticize every move of goodell, the chorus gets old and I can't really take it seriously.  That's especially true when you criticize him for being too harsh, then too lenient when all along, the players collectively bargained to give Roger Goodell the right to oversee player discipline.  Their motives behind their constant outbursts are too biased to be credible IMO. 

 

The other reason I can't really take them serious, and this is really more of a reflection on the NFLPA as opposed to any individual player, is that the NFL takes heavy criticism for its handling of the case.  Fine.  But where was the NFLPA in all this?  Why is it that all the criticism gets placed on the NFL when the NFLPA was fully capable of carrying out its own investigation.  Yet, when there's a video that magically turns up and no one seemed to know about it the NFLPA gets to point the finger and cry foul?  Goodell's failure to know that a copy of the elevator video is no better or worse than the NFLPA's failure to discover the same facts and then later point fingers.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't take the players seriously on this issue since many of them have a history of predatory sexist culture against women and are just immature thugs in general.  And some have defended Ray Rice by saying: "You can't judge him."  Ahhhh yes we can and society is.  Just imagine all the players who abused women that wasn't caught on tape.  The NFLPA is just defending their boys.  People want to say the NFL is protecting itself, well so is the player's union.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe most players in the NFL are like Ray Rice and Richie Incognito?

[OffensivelyPC]

All true. The Ravens themselves could have also performed a more thorough job, especially since Ozzie is on record that Ray Rice told him the whole ugly truth. Yet they did not let Rice go until after the video was leaked and the NFL reversed course and indefinitely suspended him.  That in and of itself leads to a problem with the NFL handling of Ray Rice in knee jerk reaction.  I think you'll Article 46 of the NFL CBs Section 4 is extremely relevant to the disciplinary action against Rice.

 

“Section 4. One Penalty: The Commissioner and a Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct.  The Commissioner’s disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct.”

 

Ray Rice may also be able to put forth a convincing argument that Commissioner Goodell had no right to go from instituting a two-game suspension to an indefinite suspension.  The facts surrounding the act and conduct have not changed.  The only development is the existence of video, which  Goodell claims the NFL did not have nor has he seen until the leak. While the conduct policy is decidedly broad, especially with the unilaterally imposed domestic policy addendum, it is not limitless, and Rice might contend that an elongated suspension based on information the league already knew constitutes “arbitrary and capricious” decision-making.

 

I don't want the NFLPA to start a suit on behalf of Ray Rice if he and his legal team do not pursue it themselves. 

 

And the NFL has to further define when their domestic policy is under violation.  Right now, Hardy was convicted but is on appeal, yet he is still playing and collect a huge paycheck in the interim.  McDonald is under investigation.  Still playing.  At some point the NFL has to make a stand or come off as not really supporting their domestic policy initiative.  The whole thing is a mess everywhere you look.   And Goodell looks incompetent at best, yet is the sole administrator of punishment where in other leagues a separate commission for that purpose and the Commissioner gets involved only on the appeal process.

 

So much to watch now.  Time to pop some popcorn me thinks...

I don't think he has an argument about Goodell changing his suspension based on that provision.  That's just designed to keep a team from "formally" punishing him on top of the NFL for the same conduct.  I put formally in quotes, because some coaches in the past have suspended guys longer by putting them on the DL.  The team can always release a guy as well, for any plethora of reasons.  So while that's a punishment to Ray, it wouldn't be a punishment of the CBA. 

 

Where he actually may have an argument, as you allude to, is that the suspension was increased based solely on the new evidence.  The only way that really is subject to lawsuit is if Ray did in fact tell the Ravens and the NFL the entire and complete truth.  That will require investigation into the meeting, and no one in the peanut gallery was privy to those conversations.  I know that suspensions generally get reduced all the time, but I don't know specifically the procedure for that.  I'd have to look more into the CBA, but I would have to imagine that there is some notice and window to dispute the decision.  I don't know a scenario where a players suspension was later increased after hte initial suspension was laid down, but we always hear about how they are reduced.  Of course no one expects a player to say "What?  Where's my lawyer, we gotta dispute this!!" when a suspension is halved. 

 

I don't have a probelm with players playing while their case is being played out in the courts.  But I know I'm in the minority on that one.  6 games served now or later doesn't make much of a difference to me. But one alternative is to suspend him with pay, but the NFLPA wouldn't give in to that at all, given that many incentives are performance based.  So if people have a problem with playing while waiting for the courts to play it out, their beef is with both the players and the NFL.  I dont' really know another good alternative and I think it's an unfair criticism to the league and the players to ask them to sit while the courts play it out, especially when we all know that trials and the appeals can last 6 months to a year.  It results in a punishment far exceeding what's in teh policy.

[OffensivelyPC]

Agreed.

 

I don't take the players seriously on this issue since many of them have a history of predatory sexist culture against women and are just immature thugs in general.  And some have defended Ray Rice by saying: "You can't judge him."  Ahhhh yes we can and society is.  Just imagine all the players who abused women that wasn't caught on tape.  The NFLPA is just defending their boys.  People want to say the NFL is protecting itself, well so is the player's union.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe most players in the NFL are like Ray Rice and Richie Incognito?

I wouldnt' go so far as to say "most" in this instance.  But I'm sure that the prevalence of domestic abuse as it pertains to players in the NFL extends beyond the three guys currently being reported as having assaulted a woman.  But I do agree with you that the critcism by the players and the NFLPA is at best hypocritical.  "Well, we dont' support those guys actions, but it's because of them that the NFL has messed up and Goodell should go."  To me, no player should be using Rice as a basis to oust Goodell.  It's because of their colleagues that the NFL had to even investigate domestic abuse in the first place.  It's the same reason (and to a greater extent) why the players' criticism of Goodell in Bountygate was so indefensible.  And in that case, you know there was a significant number of players involved in some sort of similar pay for play system.

[Sports Central1]

I wouldnt' go so far as to say "most" in this instance.  But I'm sure that the prevalence of domestic abuse as it pertains to players in the NFL extends beyond the three guys currently being reported as having assaulted a woman.  But I do agree with you that the critcism by the players and the NFLPA is at best hypocritical.  "Well, we dont' support those guys actions, but it's because of them that the NFL has messed up and Goodell should go."  To me, no player should be using Rice as a basis to oust Goodell.  It's because of their colleagues that the NFL had to even investigate domestic abuse in the first place.  It's the same reason (and to a greater extent) why the players' criticism of Goodell in Bountygate was so indefensible.  And in that case, you know there was a significant number of players involved in some sort of similar pay for play system.

 

Yeah, agreed.

 

Everyone wants to protect their own as% and keep the "good 'ol boy" culture going.

[Nadine]

What did Roger Goodell know?  Is there any proof he himself saw the video months ago and not a lower level employee of the NFL?  The NFL has around 20,000 employees from what I read.

 

People need to stop using this controversy to exploit it to go after Goodell because they have a personal grudge and vendetta against him.  Goodell has a lot of enemies and critics and they been waiting for anything to use to go after him.

 

Why would the fans not like Goodell?  He's done nothing but bend over backwards for the fans to make the NFL more fan friendly and appealing to a larger audience.

 

Now, why would the players not like Goodell?  He's that person in a authority role who tells the punk to pull up his sagging pants hanging by his legs.  The Chris Brown's of the world wouldn't like Goodell.

 

Let's say hypothetically that the NFL saw the video months ago,  Ok, the NFL should be punished for that, but we should not take our focus off of what Ray Rice did.  And NO! Ray Rice should NOT be allowed back in the NFL.  This is all about Ray Rice's actions assaulting a woman.  That's the main point.  Ray Rice and the NFL wouldn't be in this position today if Rice wouldn't have knocked out his fiance.  To blame the NFL?  That's like blaming the prison warden when the inmates are out of control.

 

What's creepy and dangerous are all the insecure guys with mommy issues who think what Ray Rice did wasn't that bad and try to defend him.  That shows criminal element themselves. Those are the type of people who hate the cops and always have excuses to make when they get in trouble.  It's a national crisis in the U.S. of guys thinking it's ok or not that big a deal what Rice did.  It's like the mentality of muslim men who treat women that way.  This is the U.S., not Nigeria or Pakistan.  It comes from a bad upbringing and often single parent homes.

 

For Ray Rice's wife to blame the media for this is outrageous and ludicrous.  She claims she wants privacy and this is a violation of privacy, well she and her fiance were fighting and he Mike Tyson'ed her in a casino with security cameras in every room.

It doesn't much matter to me whether or not Goodell had seen the video.  Didn't he know what happened in that elevator anyway?  I think he did.  He just made the wrong call on that and admitted that.  So the two primary issues are unchanged (1.) Ray Rice did wrong (2) Goodell did not take it seriously enough

 

As far as the Rices being upset at having to relive the worst day of their lives over and over again, I don't have sympathy.  I think they need to look at the worst moment of their life over and over again. I don't much care if he comes back into the NFL, I tend to think he should come back because he's working on his issues.......if in fact he is.

 

I don't really see the video changing much, or it shouldn't

[Nadine]

Agreed.

 

I don't take the players seriously on this issue since many of them have a history of predatory sexist culture against women and are just immature thugs in general.  And some have defended Ray Rice by saying: "You can't judge him."  Ahhhh yes we can and society is.  Just imagine all the players who abused women that wasn't caught on tape.  The NFLPA is just defending their boys.  People want to say the NFL is protecting itself, well so is the player's union.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe most players in the NFL are like Ray Rice and Richie Incognito?

No

[Nadine]

lol @ Ray Rice knocking out a woman on video and the people want to go after Goodell.

 

Seriously, all you Chris Brown fans get over your issues with women.  It's like the people who say: "You can't judge Ray Rice."  lol  When you say that it makes you come across sympathetic to Rice and you yourself think hitting women isn't that bad.  "Well that's because you don't know the ghetto, you were never raised in the ghetto."  lol  Always making excuses for bad behavior.

 

And all the people who defend the Rice's and think this is a violation of their privacy are the same people who thought it was great that Donald Sterling's privacy was violated.

 

No I don't think those situations are the same.

The first thought I had when I heard the Sterling rant was "There is something wrong with him" and I believe his wife said he has dementia. I think he's been a racist his whole life and the dementia removed the filter. Even so, his rant was irrational and he hangs around with girl who dates men with dementia and tape records what they say................so, eww

 

The similarity between the two situations for me is how they took on a life of their own with angry villagers crying for blood.

 

We've got to be careful that we don't let the mobs run everything.

 

I saw I riot once and it actually scared me to watch people transform into destructive psychos. And these days I'm reminded of that state of mind more and more

[ColtsBlueFL]

I wouldnt' go so far as to say "most" in this instance.  But I'm sure that the prevalence of domestic abuse as it pertains to players in the NFL extends beyond the three guys currently being reported as having assaulted a woman.  But I do agree with you that the critcism by the players and the NFLPA is at best hypocritical.  "Well, we dont' support those guys actions, but it's because of them that the NFL has messed up and Goodell should go."  To me, no player should be using Rice as a basis to oust Goodell.  It's because of their colleagues that the NFL had to even investigate domestic abuse in the first place.  It's the same reason (and to a greater extent) why the players' criticism of Goodell in Bountygate was so indefensible.  And in that case, you know there was a significant number of players involved in some sort of similar pay for play system.

 

Mark Schlereth and Mike Golic have  almost said emphatically, that all of them have.  They have all played for bounties and made manly threats to opponents.  No doubt we are all finding out if it doesn't affect the outside, there indeed are some things we just do not need leaked out in public, and the NFL should better police itself on wha tis OK, and what crosses boundaries, and deal wit it confidentially to the league.  A man can dream, yes?

[Superman]

Because the NFL really has not clarified the threshold for what constitutes a domestic violence “offense” under the new policy. Along those lines, it is not clear whether “offense” requires a conviction or guilty plea, or a lesser threshold of an arrest, civil lawsuit or mere accusation.  It is poor implementation.  And NFLPA going against doing the right thing is why the NFL needs to be investigated itself.  It seems to be selfishness at the expense of others, of which appears to run rampant in the NFL at every turn.

 

 

Maybe not double jeopardy in the 5th amendment judicial sense, but what about Article 46 of the NFL's collective bargaining agreement which I believe states that neither the NFL nor a team (such as the Ravens) can punish a player twice for the same conduct or act?

 

Now do you want to know why what Goodell knew when is so important?  because -

 

"If the NFL knew of the elevator video when it originally suspended Rice but now uses the video’s public disclosure to  justify its harsher suspension on Rice, Rice would surely sue the NFL as acting outside the wide boundaries of the personal conduct policy. While the policy is decidedly broad, it is not limitless, and Rice might contend that an elongated suspension based on information the league already knew constitutes “arbitrary and capricious” decision-making.  Rice would assert that it is arbitrary to use old information to justify a new penalty but not take that approach with other players, and it would also be capricious since Goodell would seem unpredictable and erratic. In addition, the NFLPA could file an unfair labor practices charge with the National Labor Relations Board if Goodell imposed a new penalty based on prior information."

 

I am of the belief the NFL cannot claim that the contents of the video are new evidence, as they were aware of the video's existence and chose not to ensure they saw the video before exacting discipline.  Otherwise, the commissioner would have to explain why they weren't aware of the other tape inside the elevator before ruling the first time if they continue to claim they made a new decision based upon new information.

 

One other potential legal complication. Goodell unilaterally imposed the domestic policy. It was not collectively bargained. While collectively bargained rules that impact players’ wages, hours and working conditions are exempt from federal antitrust law, those same rules are subject to antitrust law when the rule is unilaterally imposed. So that gives Rice a method to sue the NFL under antitrust law, forcing the NFL to litigate the policy and argue it is an extension to the personal conduct policy.  With Rice already suspended, just how attractive a test case would that make? 

 

I'm sure there are great legal minds that can and will come up with all sorts of things on both sides.  I'll be searching for it, and would love Gould to expound on his theory that opens the NFL to a lawsuit, unless it is related to Article 46 mentioned up top.

 

Oh, and I guess I am for the independent investigation of the whole charade. Just like Wells dis for Incognito / Martin.

 

I'm content to wait and see what happens. I'm not the super skeptic that others are. I'm slow to assume anything about anyone, especially the worst case scenario. And in this instance, I'm turned off by the public response to this issue. As others have said, Ray Rice is the one who hit his fiance, not Roger Goodell. 

 

Good thoughts all around. I don't agree with some of them, but I appreciate you being thorough. Let's see where this goes over the next few days.

[Sports Central1]

Mark Schlereth and Mike Golic have  almost said emphatically, that all of them have.  They have all played for bounties and made manly threats to opponents.  No doubt we are all finding out if it doesn't affect the outside, there indeed are some things we just do not need leaked out in public, and the NFL should better police itself on wha tis OK, and what crosses boundaries, and deal wit it confidentially to the league.  A man can dream, yes?

 

When has the NFL seriously suspended head hunters like Brandon Meriweather and Bernard Pollard who openly make threats and succeeded in seriously injuring players intentionally?

[NFLfan]

Yes we do. Might I suggest a book that is one of the best I have ever read on how America went from a serious, critical thinking society to one that craves to be entertained? The books is called, "Amusing Ourselves to Death" by Neil Postman, http://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Business/dp/014303653X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410441099&sr=8-1&keywords=amusing+ourselves+to+death+public+discourse+in+the+age+of+show+business

He wrote it in 1985 and it is more spot on predicting our society today than Orwell's 1984 as Orwell thought that the government ("big brother") would control the masses when in fact the masses gave that control away willfully to be entertained. The book discusses how forms of public discourse regulate or even dictate what content can issue from such forms. It is kind of an apologetic for books but he uses the dawn of the TV age as the crux of his argument. Of course Postman did not live to see the Internet/social media age, which only confirms his hypothesis. This book will change the way you view everything you hear and read. The first 60 pages where he gives a history of information/communications is worth the price of the book alone. I am hoping his son who wrote the foreword in the 2006 edition will write a follow up and apply his father's thoughts to today's digital age.

Sounds like a book I would enjoy. I ordered it. Thank you.

[NFLfan]

I don't think he has an argument about Goodell changing his suspension based on that provision. That's just designed to keep a team from "formally" punishing him on top of the NFL for the same conduct. I put formally in quotes, because some coaches in the past have suspended guys longer by putting them on the DL. The team can always release a guy as well, for any plethora of reasons. So while that's a punishment to Ray, it wouldn't be a punishment of the CBA.

Where he actually may have an argument, as you allude to, is that the suspension was increased based solely on the new evidence. The only way that really is subject to lawsuit is if Ray did in fact tell the Ravens and the NFL the entire and complete truth. That will require investigation into the meeting, and no one in the peanut gallery was privy to those conversations. I know that suspensions generally get reduced all the time, but I don't know specifically the procedure for that. I'd have to look more into the CBA, but I would have to imagine that there is some notice and window to dispute the decision. I don't know a scenario where a players suspension was later increased after hte initial suspension was laid down, but we always hear about how they are reduced. Of course no one expects a player to say "What? Where's my lawyer, we gotta dispute this!!" when a suspension is halved.

I don't have a probelm with players playing while their case is being played out in the courts. But I know I'm in the minority on that one. 6 games served now or later doesn't make much of a difference to me. But one alternative is to suspend him with pay, but the NFLPA wouldn't give in to that at all, given that many incentives are performance based. So if people have a problem with playing while waiting for the courts to play it out, their beef is with both the players and the NFL. I dont' really know another good alternative and I think it's an unfair criticism to the league and the players to ask them to sit while the courts play it out, especially when we all know that trials and the appeals can last 6 months to a year. It results in a punishment far exceeding what's in teh policy.

What do you think of this alternative: the head coach having the player dress but not play? Herman Edwards often shares what he did when John Abraham, playing for the Jets, was arrested for what I believe was a DUI or DWI. Abraham still got paid but he did not play. I do not recall the NFLPA objecting to that. However, fans were critical of Edwards for not playing a healthy player who could contribute to a win.

[amfootball]

Sounds like a book I would enjoy. I ordered it. Thank you.

You are welcome. Please PM after you read it and let me know what you thought of it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

What do you think of this alternative: the head coach having the player dress but not play? Herman Edwards often shares what he did when John Abraham, playing for the Jets, was arrested for what I believe was a DUI or DWI. Abraham still got paid but he did not play. I do not recall the NFLPA objecting to that. However, fans were critical of Edwards for not playing a healthy player who could contribute to a win.

 

I think that is a coaches way to send a message, but it is likely only 1 game, one time. Suspended with a certain number of games with pay is another.  It is multiple games and players usually not allowed with team (but that could be altered)  That will generate pushback from NFLPA, we believe.

[oldunclemark]

yeah, news people v investigators,players v owners...........I'm sure it all plays into what we are seeing.

Still.........I think we all need to take a step back and look at all of this.

 

Why it's such a massive news story. News isn't news anymore. It's tabloid tv

 

We don't care about domestic violence.........we care about drama

Well said...

Whether Ray got a suspension of 2 games or 2 years....he's going home and beating his wife..

The court (which had all the videos) called Ray knocking out his wife a 3rd degree misdemeanor...and gave him no jail time.

If we really care abut this issue...there's the problem right there.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Sounds like a book I would enjoy. I ordered it. Thank you.

Same here.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I'm content to wait and see what happens. I'm not the super skeptic that others are. I'm slow to assume anything about anyone, especially the worst case scenario. And in this instance, I'm turned off by the public response to this issue. As others have said, Ray Rice is the one who hit his fiance, not Roger Goodell. 

 

Good thoughts all around. I don't agree with some of them, but I appreciate you being thorough. Let's see where this goes over the next few days.

 

Yes. Agreed.  I think that Ray Rice has his punishment, and is a topic all of its own. It is the integrity of the league, possibly willfully, disregarding gathering all evidence that could determine proper disciplinary action, and once the initial ruling was deemed an inappropriate punishment and was then increased dramatically, was it legal and proper to do so in this case (even if the end result achieved was a good and desired result), or was there another method (if any at all) at that point to accomplish that.  And then the corollary, will the Rice legal team file suit in return in the aftermath?

 

OH and fully define when in the timeline of the judicial due process is it determined the Domestic policy was violated, and the course of action to be taken at that point.  Everything else is fluff to me, at least I think so.

[OffensivelyPC]

What do you think of this alternative: the head coach having the player dress but not play? Herman Edwards often shares what he did when John Abraham, playing for the Jets, was arrested for what I believe was a DUI or DWI. Abraham still got paid but he did not play. I do not recall the NFLPA objecting to that. However, fans were critical of Edwards for not playing a healthy player who could contribute to a win.

Well they really couldn't object to being benched.  For Herm, there may have been an ulterior motive behind benching him, but that would be pretty difficult (and probably a waste of time and money) to prove in a court setting because it would require the NFLPA to basically know what Herm was thinking when he decided to bench him.  But I suppose they could have him dress, but he still misses out on performance based incentives (i.e. 1,000 yards receiving), and I just don't know why the NFLPA would agree to that other than to appease all the critics.  It's essentially punishing him while he's waiting to be punished.  I mean, the NFLPA and the NFL could agree to do these things, there's nothing legally that can stop them from doing that if both sides agreed.  I just think that no matter what the proposal is, one side is going to have a serious problem with it and it all revolves around money, not domestic abuse.

[Buck Showalter]

Agreed.

 

I don't take the players seriously on this issue since many of them have a history of predatory sexist culture against women and are just immature thugs in general.  And some have defended Ray Rice by saying: "You can't judge him."  Ahhhh yes we can and society is.  Just imagine all the players who abused women that wasn't caught on tape.  The NFLPA is just defending their boys.  People want to say the NFL is protecting itself, well so is the player's union.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe most players in the NFL are like Ray Rice and Richie Incognito?

No dude that thought had not occurred to us...

-r.i.p. P.S.Hoffman

but seriously I'm sure there are plenty of knuckleheads in the NFL, as in all walks of life...

but I don't think it is the majority, in fact I'd venture to say most NFL athletes are normal guys, since out of a roster of 53 players you have maybe half dozen household name stars/super stars (if you are lucky)that leaves a lot of normal players that probably fall into the "Average Joe" category...

probably...

or maybe they are all thugs, but I doubt it...

[ColtsBlueFL]

When has the NFL seriously suspended head hunters like Brandon Meriweather and Bernard Pollard who openly make threats and succeeded in seriously injuring players intentionally?

 Until this year, never.  But if the threat is racially laced, it could this year!!

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2014/07/29/nfl-will-have-zero-tolerance-for-on-field-use-of-racial-and-homophobic-slurs-players-are-told-in-leagues-officiating-video/

 

"The league announced during the offseason it would use existing rules addressing unsportsmanlike conduct to enact a ban on the use of racial slurs during games. NFL officials said they felt that a formal rule change was unnecessary to implement the ban.

Infractions are to result in 15-yard penalties and, according to the officiating video, could lead to additional disciplinary action by the league."

 

Bam!

[Nadine]

Well said...

Whether Ray got a suspension of 2 games or 2 years....he's going home and beating his wife..

The court (which had all the videos) called Ray knocking out his wife a 3rd degree misdemeanor...and gave him no jail time.

If we really care abut this issue...there's the problem right there.

 

I sure hope not.

Maybe all this attention has really convinced the two of them to work on having a healthy relationship

[NFLfan]

You are welcome. Please PM after you read it and let me know what you thought of it.

Okay. Will do. It arrives next week.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I sure hope not.

Maybe all this attention has really convinced the two of them to work on having a healthy relationship

 

He is in a program to do just that. If he stays clean for 6 months (IIRC) and progresses in the program, charges are dropped. And hopefully he will no longer be tempted, let alone give in to, the horrid act he pulled before the counseling.  Win-Win-Wn.  (Ray Rice, Janay Rice, State of NJ)

[NFLfan]

I think that is a coaches way to send a message, but it is likely only 1 game, one time. Suspended with a certain number of games with pay is another. It is multiple games and players usually not allowed with team (but that could be altered) That will generate pushback from NFLPA, we believe.

Yes, the coach was sending a message. I think Harbaugh should have sent a similar message to McDonald who, as you have noted several times, is still playing. And Hardy should have been suspended by now.

[NFLfan]

Same here.

This evening I plan to read some of the articles that you posted in this thread. Thank you.

[jvan1973]

Yes, the coach was sending a message. I think Harbaugh should have sent a similar message to McDonald who, as you have noted several times, is still playing. And Hardy should have been suspended by now.

Why can't due process take place first?

[ColtsBlueFL]

This evening I plan to read some of the articles that you posted in this thread. Thank you.

 

I hope you find them thought provoking and engaging, even if you may not agree with part or all of the points.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Why can't due process take place first?

 

There is a thought for that.  But here is another. Considering due process can drag out for years, the message sent to boys growing up is, you do PEDS, you hurt your team and pocketbook right away.  You smack your girl around, you and your team may not have to deal with the consequences for a long long time, and maybe at some future point, not at all.  Nice message huh?  Yup, that NFL. Made a policy. Really shows they really do care for women. 

 

There instances all over where an employer administers discipline to an employee charged with an offense, without waiting for a trial to begin, let alone exhausting all appeals.  There has to be a happy medium to be reached somewhere... right?

[jvan1973]

There is a thought for that. But here is another. Considering due process can drag out for years, the message sent to boys growing up is, you do PEDS, you hurt your team and pocketbook right away. You smack your girl around, you and your team may not have to deal with the consequences for a long long time, and maybe at some future point, not at all. Nice message huh? Yup, that NFL. Made a policy. Really shows they really do care for women.

There instances all over where an employer administers discipline to an employee charged with an offense, without waiting for a trial to begin, let alone exhausting all appeals. There has to be a happy medium to be reached somewhere... right?

So guilty until proven innocent? Irsay wasnt disciplined until after his plea deal went through Punishing someone before they have been found guilty is irresponsible as far as I'm concerned

[ColtsBlueFL]

So guilty until proven innocent? Irsay wasnt disciplined until after his plea deal went through Punishing someone before they have been found guilty is irresponsible as far as I'm concerned

This is not a court of law trying a criminal case and proof doesn't have to be beyond reasonable doubt.  I'd say preponderance of evidence (like in a civil case) is likely enough to begin to administer an initial stage of discipline.  If later the courts find it against the player, further action can be taken at that time. It's only a right thing to consider.

 

So How can the NFL make a rule that is a deterrent for domestic violence?  The one in place hasn't worked yet and  doesn't appear to have the teeth to be an effective deterrent. This means to me the NFL really isn't fully behind their protect the women stance. Fluff policy.

[jvan1973]

This is not a court of law and proof doesn't have to be beyond reasonable doubt. I'd say preponderance of evidence is likely enough to begin to administer an initial stage of discipline. If later the courts find it against the player, further action can be taken at that time. It's only a right thing to consider.

So How can the NFL make a rule that is a deterrent for domestic violence? The one in place hasn't worked yet and doesn't appear to have the teeth to be an effective deterrent. This means to me the NFL really isn't fully behind their protect the women. Fluff policy.

They just implemented the rule. If found guilty they will miss six games. That is far stiffer penalty than the DUI policy

[Happy2BeHere]

I really will predict that this situation will be the lead into goodell being gone before too long. I say before the start of the next league year at earliest but likely before the start of the next season at latest.

Obviously my opinin here but just seems like there were some not so honest things about the case involved here. Cover up? I don't know...just something fishy about the lack of truth that seems to be apparent here.

[thedude]

I think you're being overly critical of the move if you believe the investigators are going to tailor their findings to what the NFL wants because there's really no good way out of this.

Now, it's worse than I originally stated. This investigation is not just a PR stunt, it's an outright sham. I think he now has no choice but to abandon this plan for the so called independent investigation he's developed and submit the league front office to a real investigation conducted by a true outsider with no ties to anyone in the NFL.

Every time Goodell answers a question, or addresses an issue, he's contradicted by the facts, or just creates more questions.

I'm not an Olberman fan, but like he said, what did the commissioner know and when did he decide to not know what he already knew? Or words to that effect.

[thedude]

. Considering due process can drag out for years,

If I have the money, I could drag something out for years, like you just said.

[ColtsBlueFL]

They just implemented the rule. If found guilty they will miss six games. That is far stiffer penalty than the DUI policy

and 2 people violated it since.  neither punished. They are still playing and collecting big bux (lawyer fees) and it could be a long time before either of them get a ruling.  Fail.

[jvan1973]

and 2 people violated it since. neither punished. They are still playing and collecting big bux (lawyer fees) and it could be a long time before either of them get a ruling. Fail.

If they are found guilty they will get suspended for 6 games and possibly released from their team. Punishing someone on the word of another is not justice. If there is video like in the rice case, that's one thing. But if it's a he said she said, then you have to let it play out Many peaple have been accused of things they didn't do. It happens every day

[jvan1973]

If I have the money, I could drag something out for years, like you just said.

Maybe in a cival suit. Not in a felony battery case