Wes Welker suspended 4 games (merge)

[GoPats]

That's the point i was trying to make initially. Relying on concussion occurrences prior to last season is naive

 

But we don't know, either way, about Welker in NE. 

 

I can remember him taking some big hits while he was a Patriot. Brandon Browner got him a couple years back, Pollard once, Ryan Clark caught him good one time (though IIRC he wasn't actually targeted on the play, might have been a tipped ball or something). 

 

That said, he played six season in NE, and he's played, what, 15 games in Denver, including playoffs? And of course he's older.

 

Manning's strength is accuracy and timing, not velocity. I'm not "blaming" him for Welker's health, but getting a concussion once for every five games you play is not good, and is an obvious trend since he switched teams. 

[TAPLOOK]

You said that he wouldn't have gotten any concussions had he stayed in NE...that is your point to prove.  Like I said, I disagree, because it can only be based on speculation.

 

 

True but it's highly unlikely he'd be getting one every 3.3 games. The numbers show that as almost certain. Are there others besides Collie and Welker?

[TAPLOOK]

I'm sure Bill Beelzichick was smiling as he read of this, but I doubt concussions or PEDs played any part in the Pats decision to let Welker go.

 

To attribute this series of wild coincidences to Beelzichick's brilliance is a bit of a reach.

 

 

Correct. You win some and you lose some. BB and the Patriots won this one thanks to Welkers wife persuading him to sign in Denver. I bet Mr. Kraft sends them a nice Christmas present.

[ViriLudant]

Ted Johnson explained BB's philosophy on reporting concussions. I think it's safe to say many have gone unreported in New England over the years

Except that there are major fines/suspensions in place for not reporting concussions. Ted Johnson preceded those days. Guy has been out of the league for over a decade.

[1959Colts]

Kevin Bowen @KBowenColts  ·  40m

With Wes Welker out, the Broncos signed Nathan Palmer to their 53-man roster. Palmer, an Indiana native, was with the @Colts during 2012.

[southwest1]

Only if abused..  I have a prescription for amphetamines that I use every single day.  Its all about how they're used.

An excellent point JM51. Thanks for the reminder. 

 

But we don't know, either way, about Welker in NE. 

 

I can remember him taking some big hits while he was a Patriot. Brandon Browner got him a couple years back, Pollard once, Ryan Clark caught him good one time (though IIRC he wasn't actually targeted on the play, might have been a tipped ball or something). 

 

That said, he played six season in NE, and he's played, what, 15 games in Denver, including playoffs? And of course he's older.

 

Manning's strength is accuracy and timing, not velocity. I'm not "blaming" him for Welker's health, but getting a concussion once for every five games you play is not good, and is an obvious trend since he switched teams. 

A brilliantly, accurate last sentence GP. I don't wanna see Welker's concussions increase because he's so valuable to Denver on 3rd downs, but your concern over the frequency of concussions is a legitimate one. 

[ViriLudant]

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=2751614&src=desktop

He said bill forced him to practice

Looks like the independent neurologist disagrees with you.

Dr. Lee H. Schwamm, the neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital who examined Johnson, wrote in a memo Aug. 19, 2002, that Johnson sustained a second concussion in that practice, the Times reported.

Schwamm also wrote that, after speaking with Whalen, the trainer "was on the sidelines when he sustained the concussion during the game and assessed him frequently at the sideline" and that "he has kept Mr. Johnson out of contact since that time."

Johnson said he spoke with Belichick the next day about the incident, but only briefly, the Times said.

[Superman]

Manning's strength is accuracy and timing, not velocity. I'm not "blaming" him for Welker's health, but getting a concussion once for every five games you play is not good, and is an obvious trend since he switched teams. 

 

So then what are you saying?

[ViriLudant]

True but it's highly unlikely he'd be getting one every 3.3 games. The numbers show that as almost certain. Are there others besides Collie and Welker?

Dallas Clark and Stokely, from what I understand.

[chad72]

The frequency of a repeat concussion happens quicker with contact once the first BIG one happens, which was against the Chiefs for Welker last year. If I am the Broncos GM, I'd rest him till the end of the bye week and let him play after week 4. It is more important to have Welker as the season goes on, instead of right off the bat.

 

Well, he went an offseason without contact and as soon as he got his first semblance of real contact to the head, the concussion happened. It is only a matter of time, it is not IF, it is only about WHEN with repeat concussions, based on all that I have read.

 

But if I had to bet, he sits out game 1 and comes back game 2 vs the Chiefs at home.

 

My wish indirectly came true .

[southwest1]

So then what are you saying?

 

 

 

 

Manning's strength is accuracy and timing, not velocity. I'm not "blaming" him for Welker's health, but getting a concussion once for every five games you play is not good, and is an obvious trend since he switched teams. 

Are you saying that GP is blaming John Fox's coaching staff or medical personnel who work for the Broncos as in mis management, a poor diagnosis, or dare I say intentional negligence Superman? Because I didn't interpret that sentence that way. The switching teams remark is trivial to me. It's just that the volume of concussions is growing. A byproduct of age & attrition in this gladiator league. That's how I read GP's last few words. 

 

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant Superman. 

[TAPLOOK]

Dallas Clark and Stokely, from what I understand.

 

Thanks. I'm sure there are more but that's a good sampling. It's a tough game and some pay a steeper price than others with contributing factors of course. It doesn't make Peyton a bad guy or QB it's just result of his style of play. 

[GoPats]

So then what are you saying?

 

Welker played over 100 games for New England, including playoffs. "Officially" he had zero concussions during that span. I agree that it's very possible he did, and that they went undetected or unreported. But he didn't get one every five games. I think we'd all agree on that. 

 

He's played 15 games for Denver and has had three concussions. Maybe it's a wild coincidence, but is that the logical conclusion? 

 

Watching videos of all three of those passes where he was concussed, and having watched Welker in NE for six seasons, I see a notable difference. In NE, a good number of the balls he would catch were down and away. With the concussion hits, the balls are coming in high and a bit wobbly, and in some cases just a bit off target.

 

Here's a video from 2012, from the "Top 100" list that year.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Voe9GbAzA

 

Go to the 2:50 mark of the video. Revis says, "You think you're in position, but he's throwing it here (motions down), and Wes is catching it, like, an inch away from the ground." Welker caught 100+ passes many years but most of them were just like that. 

 

I'm not attempting to diminish Manning's greatness in the slightest, but even he would tell you that arm strength is not his greatest asset. I can't see how anyone wouldn't objectively say that it's very possible it has something to do with what's happened with Welker over the past year. 

[Superman]

Are you saying that GP is blaming John Fox's coaching staff or medical personnel who work for the Broncos as in mis management, a poor diagnosis, or dare I say intentional negligence Superman? Because I didn't interpret that sentence that way. The switching teams remark is trivial to me. It's just that the volume of concussions is growing. A byproduct of age & attrition in this gladiator league. That's how I read GP's last few words. 

 

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant Superman. 

 

I'm not saying or meaning anything. I'm asking for clarification.

[Superman]

Welker played over 100 games for New England, including playoffs. "Officially" he had zero concussions during that span. I agree that it's very possible he did, and that they went undetected or unreported. But he didn't get one every five games. I think we'd all agree on that. 

 

He's played 15 games for Denver and has had three concussions. Maybe it's a wild coincidence, but is that the logical conclusion? 

 

Watching videos of all three of those passes where he was concussed, and having watched Welker in NE for six seasons, I see a notable difference. In NE, a good number of the balls he would catch were down and away. With the concussion hits, the balls are coming in high and a bit wobbly, and in some cases just a bit off target.

 

Here's a video from 2012, from the "Top 100" list that year.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Voe9GbAzA

 

Go to the 2:50 mark of the video. Revis says, "You think you're in position, but he's throwing it here (motions down), and Wes is catching it, like, an inch away from the ground." Welker caught 100+ passes many years but most of them were just like that. 

 

I'm not attempting to diminish Manning's greatness in the slightest, but even he would tell you that arm strength is not his greatest asset. I can't see how anyone wouldn't objectively say that it's very possible it has something to do with what's happened with Welker over the past year. 

 

So are you saying Manning is to blame for Welker's concussions, or not? Because you say you're not "blaming" him, then you come back and present an argument that seems very much like blame. 

[southwest1]

I'm not saying or meaning anything. I'm asking for clarification.

Okay, fair enough thank you. GP is a reasonable man & so are you. I just was having difficultly understanding what you were driving at. I get it now. You just wanted him to elaborate on his POV. 

[TAPLOOK]

So are you saying Manning is to blame for Welker's concussions, or not? Because you say you're not "blaming" him, then you come back and present an argument that seems very much like blame. 

You can't blame him but he's certainly a contributing factor. There's irrefutable proof.

[southwest1]

So are you saying Manning is to blame for Welker's concussions, or not? Because you say you're not "blaming" him, then you come back and present an argument that seems very much like blame. 

" I see a notable difference. In NE, a good number of the balls he would catch were down and away. With the concussion hits, the balls are coming in high and a bit wobbly, and in some cases just a bit off target." 

 

Where in that sentence does GP say Manning is responsible for Welker's concussions? Ball placement across the middle or in the slot matters. GP isn't implying that Brady is perfect & Manning sucks. I see no blame there at all. How is acknowledging ball placement applying blame? It's not. 

 

When I slam QB Brett Farve for his many interceptions in another topic, it is an indictment against poor decision making not ball placement BTW. A huge difference. 

[OffensivelyPC]

So are you saying Manning is to blame for Welker's concussions, or not? Because you say you're not "blaming" him, then you come back and present an argument that seems very much like blame. 

This thread is starting to remind me of Clue the movie. 

 

Colonel Mustard: Wadsworth, am I right in thinking there's nobody else in this house?

Wadsworth: Um... no.

Colonel Mustard: Then there is someone else in this house?

Wadsworth: Sorry, I said "no" meaning "yes."

Colonel Mustard: "No" meaning "yes?" Look, I want a straight answer, is there someone else, or isn't there, yes, or no?

Wadsworth: No.

Colonel Mustard: No there is, or no there isn't?

[chad72]

The logical conclusion is once he got that first BIG one, that little head of his could not handle it consistently anymore. The first one was where Welker kept running around before getting sandwiched by 2 Chiefs defenders. It is like Enron coming crashing down when George W took over. The symptoms were probably there during the Democrats leadership, just because it happened under George W does not mean that the Democrats had nothing to do with the .com bubble or Enron's collapse.

 

Same thing here, it was a matter of time before the diminutive slot wideout got his first BIG one. Wrong side of 30, slot wideout, it was a matter of time.

[Superman]

" I see a notable difference. In NE, a good number of the balls he would catch were down and away. With the concussion hits, the balls are coming in high and a bit wobbly, and in some cases just a bit off target."

Where in that sentence does GP say Manning is responsible for Welker's concussions? Ball placement across the middle or in the slot matters. GP isn't implying that Brady is perfect & Manning sucks. I see no blame there at all. How is acknowledging ball placement applying blame? It's not.

When I slam QB Brett Farve for his many interceptions in another topic, it is an indictment against poor decision making not ball placement BTW. A huge difference.

I'm sure GP appreciates your support. I think he's an awesome guy, too, but I think he's playing both sides here. That's why I asked his opinion.

[GoPats]

So are you saying Manning is to blame for Welker's concussions, or not? Because you say you're not "blaming" him, then you come back and present an argument that seems very much like blame. 

 

I'm not saying: "Wes Welker's concussions are all Peyton Manning's fault," no. That would be an over-simplification. There are a lot of moving parts in a football game. I do believe that the lack of velocity on a lot of these throws is a factor, and is leaving Welker dangerously vulnerable, though. 

 

What's your honest opinion on it? If you think I'm way off that's cool... I just don't think this can be chalked up to pure coincidence or the new concussion protocols. 

[GoPats]

" I see a notable difference. In NE, a good number of the balls he would catch were down and away. With the concussion hits, the balls are coming in high and a bit wobbly, and in some cases just a bit off target." 

 

Where in that sentence does GP say Manning is responsible for Welker's concussions? Ball placement across the middle or in the slot matters. GP isn't implying that Brady is perfect & Manning sucks. I see no blame there at all. How is acknowledging ball placement applying blame? It's not. 

 

When I slam QB Brett Farve for his many interceptions in another topic, it is an indictment against poor decision making not ball placement BTW. A huge difference. 

 

I'm sure GP appreciates your support. I think he's an awesome guy, too, but I think he's playing both sides here. That's why I asked his opinion.

 

Goes without saying, there is obviously no intent or deliberate carelessness involved here. Manning is the last guy who wants Welker to get hurt. 

 

Supes' point is a fair one. I'm sort of playing both sides of this and am trying to be tactful in the process, as I hold Manning in very high regard. As he said himself last year (to paraphrase), "yeah I throw a lot of wounded ducks... for touchdowns." I have to believe that if a couple of these throws had a little more mustard on them, and were a bit lower instead of up around his chest and shoulders, Welker would not be dealing with his third concussion in less than a year. That's all. 

[jvan1973]

Goes without saying, there is obviously no intent or deliberate carelessness involved here. Manning is the last guy who wants Welker to get hurt.

Supes' point is a fair one. I'm sort of playing both sides of this and am trying to be tactful in the process, as I hold Manning in very high regard. As he said himself last year (to paraphrase), "yeah I throw a lot of wounded ducks... for touchdowns." I have to believe that if a couple of these throws had a little more mustard on them, and were a bit lower instead of up around his chest and shoulders, Welker would not be dealing with his third concussion in less than a year. That's all.

It's is pretty universal among doctors that after you have had a concussion you are far more likely to have others. Troy Aikman had 9 or 10 diagnosed concussions in his career

[GoPats]

It's is pretty universal among doctors that after you have had a concussion you are far more likely to have others. Troy Aikman had 9 or 10 diagnosed concussions in his career

 

I don't remember a number with Aikman but yeah, absolutely. That said, three in less than a year is a lot. If Welker is that susceptible to them now, he should really call it a career before he ends up doing permanent damage. 

[jvan1973]

I don't remember a number with Aikman but yeah, absolutely. That said, three in less than a year is a lot. If Welker is that susceptible to them now, he should really call it a career before he ends up doing permanent damage.

Well that is another conversation entirely. He is a grown man. If he can pass the post concussion tests, he has the right to continue playing.

[GoPats]

Well that is another conversation entirely. He is a grown man. If he can pass the post concussion tests, he has the right to continue playing.

 

Agreed. Worst case with not playing is he's a wealthy man with a gorgeous wife, lol... life could be worse.  ;)

[jvan1973]

Agreed. Worst case with not playing is he's a wealthy man with a gorgeous wife, lol... life could be worse. ;)

Yeah, he is a winner either way

[Superman]

Goes without saying, there is obviously no intent or deliberate carelessness involved here. Manning is the last guy who wants Welker to get hurt.

Supes' point is a fair one. I'm sort of playing both sides of this and am trying to be tactful in the process, as I hold Manning in very high regard. As he said himself last year (to paraphrase), "yeah I throw a lot of wounded ducks... for touchdowns." I have to believe that if a couple of these throws had a little more mustard on them, and were a bit lower instead of up around his chest and shoulders, Welker would not be dealing with his third concussion in less than a year. That's all.

Being the good guy you are, you don't want to rustle anymore jimmies than necessary. I figured as much.

My disagreement is that I don't think the plays on which Welker was hurt were wobblers. And I know that Manning still puts a little heat on his short passes, with many of them being aimed down and away. The ones that are up high are placed where the defense can't get them, and they are dangerous. But I think all the good QBs use the seams to sneak passes in between the LBs and safeties. The question is about who those throws go to.

With the Pats, those throws went to TEs. Less likely to get hit in the head than the diminutive slot receiver.

I think the phenomenon lately is to attribute blame to Manning for many things, whether it can be proved or not. Circumstancial "evidence" is referred to as "irrefutable proof," and then anyone who disagrees is a homer. And in this case, I think it's probably more reasonable and responsible to just acknowledge that players get hit in the head, instead of blaming any QB for leading receivers into concussions. Too many variables, and as you said, no QB would want his receiver to be hurt. So the insinuation that Manning is at fault for Welker and other players is rather insidious, IMO.

[GoPats]

I think the phenomenon lately is to attribute blame to Manning for many things, whether it can be proved or not. Circumstancial "evidence" is referred to as "irrefutable proof," and then anyone who disagrees is a homer. And in this case, I think it's probably more reasonable and responsible to just acknowledge that players get hit in the head, instead of blaming any QB for leading receivers into concussions. Too many variables, and as you said, no QB would want his receiver to be hurt. So the insinuation that Manning is at fault for Welker and other players is rather insidious, IMO.

 

There are probably several factors. Maybe there are subtle differences with how Welker has to run basically the same routes in Denver that he ran in NE. You hit it nicely there though... I don't mean for this to be insidious. It's just an observation. 

 

You're someone whose opinion I greatly respect so I actually just checked out all three clips again. Just to make sure no one slipped me a Molly.  ;)

 

On the first concussion (KC game), it was a catch-and-run, and he wasn't hit until well after he had possession and gained a chunk of yards after the catch. Not a badly thrown ball there at all, the pass had nothing to do with it. 

 

On #2 (Titans), it wasn't a great throw. Up around his shoulders/head. Manning had a back on that play who was wide open too but he must have missed him.  

 

#3, the most recent, was, IMO, another not-so-great throw. Probably not a good decision by Manning, especially in a preseason game. 

 

You know, another thing that I think would be a mistake to dismiss is that Brady has made his living throwing to these small, shifty, slot guys. Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Welker... all small by WR standards. He knows how to get the ball down where those guys can go get it. There are exceptions of course (Moss, Gronkowski), but his primary targets have been smaller dudes. 

 

[amfootball]

There are probably several factors. Maybe there are subtle differences with how Welker has to run basically the same routes in Denver that he ran in NE. You hit it nicely there though... I don't mean for this to be insidious. It's just an observation. 

 

You're someone whose opinion I greatly respect so I actually just checked out all three clips again. Just to make sure no one slipped me a Molly.  ;)

 

On the first concussion (KC game), it was a catch-and-run, and he wasn't hit until well after he had possession and gained a chunk of yards after the catch. Not a badly thrown ball there at all, the pass had nothing to do with it. 

 

On #2 (Titans), it wasn't a great throw. Up around his shoulders/head. Manning had a back on that play who was wide open too but he must have missed him.  

 

#3, the most recent, was, IMO, another not-so-great throw. Probably not a good decision by Manning, especially in a preseason game. 

 

You know, another thing that I think would be a mistake to dismiss is that Brady has made his living throwing to these small, shifty, slot guys. Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Welker... all small by WR standards. He knows how to get the ball down where those guys can go get it. There are exceptions of course (Moss, Gronkowski), but his primary targets have been smaller dudes. 

 

That last point is a great one. Brady has been playing with smurf size receivers his whole career and understands how to utilize them while keeping them out of harms way.

[dgambill]

Fair points but I think the drug use had to do with the concussions which I don't believe he would have sustained in NE.

Why do you say that? You do realize its entirely possible for a WR to run a route too shallow or too deep...thus putting THEMSELVES in danger of getting lit up. Watched a miked up moment with J Thomas last night where he was playing first game of the year against Ravens. First play was a seem route and Peyton told him to run it a certain way...Thomas said he didn't after practicing all week and got laid out. Peyton then told him when he came back to the huddle "You got how to run that seem route now?" Not saying this is how it is everytime obviously because Peyton could be late with the ball and various other variables but given Peytons pretty accurate ability to know where defenses are and put the ball where he wants in space it isn't hard to believe he knows how many steps a guy has after catching a ball before the safety comes over....

 

Anyways I don't know what or why he got busted...but clearly the Broncos knew it was a possibility considering how they went after Sanders in free agency and drafting Lattimer in the second rd. I think they will use Tamme a lot...which benefits us because our safeties and LBs can cover him...Caldwell will probably get playing time too...but he looked  good last year when he played so I don't think its a given that Denver's offense slows down....besides I think they come out running the ball...trying to get it to J Thomas vs LBs and move D Thomas around to get clean looks at him.

 

All in all at least the conspiracy theorist can give the Mathis deal a rest...nobody is out to get us.

[amfootball]

Why do you say that? You do realize its entirely possible for a WR to run a route too shallow or too deep...thus putting THEMSELVES in danger of getting lit up. Watched a miked up moment with J Thomas last night where he was playing first game of the year against Ravens. First play was a seem route and Peyton told him to run it a certain way...Thomas said he didn't after practicing all week and got laid out. Peyton then told him when he came back to the huddle "You got how to run that seem route now?" Not saying this is how it is everytime obviously because Peyton could be late with the ball and various other variables but given Peytons pretty accurate ability to know where defenses are and put the ball where he wants in space it isn't hard to believe he knows how many steps a guy has after catching a ball before the safety comes over....

 

Anyways I don't know what or why he got busted...but clearly the Broncos knew it was a possibility considering how they went after Sanders in free agency and drafting Lattimer in the second rd. I think they will use Tamme a lot...which benefits us because our safeties and LBs can cover him...Caldwell will probably get playing time too...but he looked  good last year when he played so I don't think its a given that Denver's offense slows down....besides I think they come out running the ball...trying to get it to J Thomas vs LBs and move D Thomas around to get clean looks at him.

 

All in all at least the conspiracy theorist can give the Mathis deal a rest...nobody is out to get us.

Don't want to rehash the whole thread but read GoPats last couple of responses to Superman on the concussions/Manning. Those are my thoughts as well.

 

In terms of the impact to the Broncos, I see little if any. As you say, they have plenty of other weapons. And as I have been saying since last off-season, slot production is easy to replace and the Broncos are already used to playing without Welker given he missed several games at the end of last season.

[sweetsurrender]

 So the insinuation that Manning is at fault for Welker and other players is rather insidious, IMO.

Insidious? Really? There is a history of receivers that have played with Manning that have been concussed going over the middle and now Welker has 3 in a year. It is not some agenda from Manning haters. QBs do control to some extent how their receivers are met by defenders depending on the location of their throws and velocity.

[Superman]

There are probably several factors. Maybe there are subtle differences with how Welker has to run basically the same routes in Denver that he ran in NE. You hit it nicely there though... I don't mean for this to be insidious. It's just an observation. 

 

You're someone whose opinion I greatly respect so I actually just checked out all three clips again. Just to make sure no one slipped me a Molly.  ;)

 

On the first concussion (KC game), it was a catch-and-run, and he wasn't hit until well after he had possession and gained a chunk of yards after the catch. Not a badly thrown ball there at all, the pass had nothing to do with it. 

 

On #2 (Titans), it wasn't a great throw. Up around his shoulders/head. Manning had a back on that play who was wide open too but he must have missed him.  

 

#3, the most recent, was, IMO, another not-so-great throw. Probably not a good decision by Manning, especially in a preseason game. 

 

You know, another thing that I think would be a mistake to dismiss is that Brady has made his living throwing to these small, shifty, slot guys. Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Welker... all small by WR standards. He knows how to get the ball down where those guys can go get it. There are exceptions of course (Moss, Gronkowski), but his primary targets have been smaller dudes. 

 

 

I don't think you're making Manning out to be a bad guy. I think others are, though. Almost as if Manning is willing to sacrifice the health of his receivers to make a big play, so if he has to hang them out to dry up the seam or across the middle, oh well... To me, it's an undercurrent of this entire conversation.

 

As for the hits...

 

KC game: We agree. 

 

Titans game: I think that's a normal sit-down route, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that throw. It wobbles a little, but that's not an issue of arm strength. (Manning has thrown a mild to moderate wobbler for a long time. Other times, he rips a tight spiral. I don't know why it isn't consistent, but that's been over a decade now.) Being that it's a sit-down route, I don't think the throw should have been low, and since it's between two defenders, there's no such thing as "away." It was just an unfortunate situation, and Welker took a hit to the head because of it. I don't even think the hit was that big; it wasn't flagged (Pollard got a personal foul for being a dummy after the play was over). Possibly residual from Welker's earlier concussion; I think it was less than a month later.

 

Preseason game: Definitely not a wobbler. Same sit-down route, no reason to throw it low, no way to throw it away from the defender, as Welker was surrounded. Maybe don't throw it to your important slot guy in the middle of the field like that? I get that, but then maybe that route combination shouldn't be in the preseason game plan to begin with. I think it's probably a bit much to ask the QB to go through all the stuff he normally goes through from snap to throw, and add in there a mental disclaimer about not throwing the read route to the open guy across the middle of the field.

 

I think every good QB works the middle of the field like that. It's always been dangerous, which is why we've always praised the guys who are willing to go across the middle.

 

As for Manning, he hasn't had slot guys like Brady has, but Wayne and Harrison always snagged the ball and got down to avoid contact. Marvin scored a TD in a playoff game against the Broncos because he got down so quick, the defenders all thought he was tagged, but he got up and ran the ball in. Marvin was a couple inches taller than Welker, but probably skinnier. You never saw Marvin and Reggie get hit like that, because they didn't let themselves get hit like that. People talk about Collie and Clark, guys who put their heads down on several occasions, presenting the crown of their head for a blow. I can't put that on Manning. 

 

The game is changing, and defenders are learning how to hit safely and cleanly, but receivers are also learning how to protect themselves. There are a hundred variables. In the end, I don't think it's right to blame anyone for what happened to Welker, or any other receiver who has been cracked coming across the middle, unless it's just a dirty play by the defender. Underneath receivers make a living off of working the open areas of the field, and QBs are supposed to throw to them when they're open. We might as well find someone to blame when a RB gets hit in the head on a dive. "Peyton Manning should have never checked to that play, he knows the man has suffered concussions before." It's pretty ludicrous, to me.

[Superman]

Insidious? Really? There is a history of receivers that have played with Manning that have been concussed going over the middle and now Welker has 3 in a year. It is not some agenda from Manning haters. QBs do control to some extent how their receivers are met by defenders depending on the location of their throws and velocity.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

 

Welker, in particular, has been hit coming across the middle many times throughout his career. Just because he's now suffered concussions coming across the middle doesn't mean that the throws he's getting are the cause of those concussions. If you're going to present that claim, you have to do better than "three concussions in one year." That's not proof. It's hardly evidence.

[sweetsurrender]

Correlation does not equal causation. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

 

Welker, in particular, has been hit coming across the middle many times throughout his career. Just because he's now suffered concussions coming across the middle doesn't mean that the throws he's getting are the cause of those concussions. If you're going to present that claim, you have to do better than "three concussions in one year." That's not proof. It's hardly evidence.

As I said, there is a history with Manning. It is fine if you disagree that he is not culpable at all in any of his receivers suffering concussions but for you to call it an insidious claim is more of what I took issue with. I happen to believe that QBs do to some extent control the well being of their receivers. It was well known in Indy that Manning had throws that led his receivers high and caused impacts that could have been avoided if the throws were better/lower or away from coverage or perhaps not made at all. If you want to turn a blind eye to that and just say that is a factor of receivers going over the middle that is fine but I believe otherwise and do not feel that opinion is insidious in the least.

[dgambill]

Okay...anyone have a percentage of Manning passes that have resulted in a concussion....not including run after the catch? Manning has thrown more passes than probably almost any qb in the league...many combined...so of course more receivers are going to get concussed....any numbers...or is this just the Collie/Welker thing....remembering Collie had his last one with Luck. If there is a greater correlation of Manning passes let me see the numbers please...maybe its true....I just like to know.

[mirobi]

Just curious how can they keep that from the news when ever one else has to report it, faulk made that comment. at that time it should have been reported when he  disputed it. instead the team kept it quite and the nfl as well is this a new practice now.    Mathis disputed it and then it came out unlike welker kept it quiet for who knows. you can bet manning has been working on this for weeks without him

[Smonroe]

Just curious how can they keep that from the news when ever one else has to report it, faulk made that comment. at that time it should have been reported when he  disputed it. instead the team kept it quite and the nfl as well is this a new practice now.    Mathis disputed it and then it came out unlike welker kept it quiet for who knows. you can bet manning has been working on this for weeks without him

On Sirius they said Welker was practicing with the team as late as yesterday.