Defensive Ends?

[BmoreColt]

So I was having a conversation in another thread about Defensive Ends, and it really got me thinking, the Colts need improvements on the Defensive Line there’s no doubt about it. I think Freeney and Mathis could be dealt for some quality draft picks, Detroit, Cleveland, and even Minnesota would be interested in bringing in an elite pass rusher! With these picks the Colts could address the weak areas on the team, and go get two young defensive ends like Smith from Missouri and Oakfur from Texas, who could start from day one. Here me out, these two both have excellent potential as pass rushers, and they also play the run well! They are young versions of Peppers and Tuck and for the money Freeney is being paid and Mathis will want, they need to play every down of the game. These two young ends could come in and start and be in a rotation with a Hughes and Anderson, or another combination and that would be fine because they wouldn’t have high contracts being later round selections. Think about the cap space that would be available to go after other players! It could improve the pass rush and run defense both short term and long term. These guys are both projected as mid round selections, which we could use our current projected picks or the compensatory picks from free agency on, and the picks Mathis and Freeney would bring the Colts somewhere between first and third rounders, could address major areas of need. This could be a strong push for young, hungry talent. Thoughts?

[Jason_]

I like Okafor but I'd prefer one of the guys below over Smith. Smith is similar in size to Mathis and Hughes so he's pretty undersized.

Andre Branch from Clemson, Jack Crawford from Penn State, Jake Bequette from Arkansas, Malik Jackson from Tennessee, and both Devin Taylor and Melvin Engram from South Carolina. Oh and also Trevor Guyton from Cal.

[Mameluc]

I like Okafor but I'd prefer one of the guys below over Smith. Smith is similar in size to Mathis and Hughes so he's pretty undersized.

Andre Branch from Clemson, Jack Crawford from Penn State, Jake Bequette from Arkansas, Malik Jackson from Tennessee, and both Devin Taylor and Melvin Engram from South Carolina. Oh and also Trevor Guyton from Cal.

where are they projected...lately i have been thinking, if we dont go the luck direction, that we may trade down dont resign mathis and draft coples. but i rather see us draft something else and then get a DE later.

[Ramblinwreck7]

I'd rather not talk about trading 2 of our best players if we are trying to win now with Manning. That wouldn't help at all.

[BmoreColt]

@Mameluc- All of these players are ideally third round and later.

@Ramblin- Maybe getting rid of them both right now is dramatic, but if Zimmer were the HC, it may actually work, look what he has done with a no notable name defensive line!

[BmoreColt]

My main issue is how Freeney and Mathis don't play everydown, typically only passing downs...

[BOTT]

My main issue is how Freeney and Mathis don't play everydown, typically only passing downs...

cause they both stink against the run...

[Xfiles]

So I was having a conversation in another thread about Defensive Ends, and it really got me thinking, the Colts need improvements on the Defensive Line there’s no doubt about it. I think Freeney and Mathis could be dealt for some quality draft picks, Detroit, Cleveland, and even Minnesota would be interested in bringing in an elite pass rusher! With these picks the Colts could address the weak areas on the team, and go get two young defensive ends like Smith from Missouri and Oakfur from Texas, who could start from day one. Here me out, these two both have excellent potential as pass rushers, and they also play the run well! They are young versions of Peppers and Tuck and for the money Freeney is being paid and Mathis will want, they need to play every down of the game. These two young ends could come in and start and be in a rotation with a Hughes and Anderson, or another combination and that would be fine because they wouldn’t have high contracts being later round selections. Think about the cap space that would be available to go after other players! It could improve the pass rush and run defense both short term and long term. These guys are both projected as mid round selections, which we could use our current projected picks or the compensatory picks from free agency on, and the picks Mathis and Freeney would bring the Colts somewhere between first and third rounders, could address major areas of need. This could be a strong push for young, hungry talent. Thoughts?

My thought is how much CAP space trading Freeny and Mathis creates. ;)

[fvantagio]

Problem i have with this is that we have so many holes on this team, especially on defense that it would probably be best to keep the talent we do have. If Mathis doesnt resign then we need to take a pass rusher in the draft or FA. If he does sign then i say the Colts still do draft/sign a pass rusher only it would be in the later rounds. Defensively we need a NT, CB(x2), SS, LB and then a pass rusher. So instead of trading players away for picks and then banking on them to be as good, lets simply surround them with more quality players.

[Jason_]

Problem i have with this is that we have so many holes on this team, especially on defense that it would probably be best to keep the talent we do have. If Mathis doesnt resign then we need to take a pass rusher in the draft or FA. If he does sign then i say the Colts still do draft/sign a pass rusher only it would be in the later rounds. Defensively we need a NT, CB(x2), SS, LB and then a pass rusher. So instead of trading players away for picks and then banking on them to be as good, lets simply surround them with more quality players.

great plan so long as we can afford everyone. ;)

[Mameluc]

Problem i have with this is that we have so many holes on this team, especially on defense that it would probably be best to keep the talent we do have. If Mathis doesnt resign then we need to take a pass rusher in the draft or FA. If he does sign then i say the Colts still do draft/sign a pass rusher only it would be in the later rounds. Defensively we need a NT, CB(x2), SS, LB and then a pass rusher. So instead of trading players away for picks and then banking on them to be as good, lets simply surround them with more quality players.

i agree, dont get me wrong... I dont want us to let Mathis walk, i want us to resign him, but im saying that i havent heard of this scneario yet...letting mathis walk and replacing him with Coples.

but yes, i rather have us resign him and take a late pass rushers than have more holes, we already have enough.

the thing is, like Jason said, can we afford him? we cant over pay him like we over payed hayden, bullit and bracket.

[Ramblinwreck7]

@Mameluc- All of these players are ideally third round and later.

@Ramblin- Maybe getting rid of them both right now is dramatic, but if Zimmer were the HC, it may actually work, look what he has done with a no notable name defensive line!

They have some high draft picks on the defensive line. Michael Johnson and Carlos Dunlap were 3rd and 2nd rounders who dropped in the draft.

[Ramblinwreck7]

My main issue is how Freeney and Mathis don't play everydown, typically only passing downs...

That's not true, they play first down which is typically a running down. They are on the field a lot. And what's wrong with getting a break? The best defensive lines in the league are the ones with good rotations. When the Giants won the Superbowl, they didn't have 4 players who stayed on the field the whole time. They were so good because they had a great rotation at DE and DT. They led the league in sacks that year and are usually near the top of the league in sacks every year.

[bavanlan]

You can't trade a free agent.

[BmoreColt]

@Bavanlan- The Colts can franchise Mathis and then trade him if I am not mistaken?

@ Ramblin- All the Giants DE's then and now all have the ability to rush the passer and play the run.

@Mameluc- Read my thread "If you were the GM" that is exactlly what I proposed, except I proposed trading Mathis under the franchise tag, to Cleveland as well as the #2 overall, after a trade down with Miami, and getting Cleveland's two first round picks.

[BmoreColt]

It's a rather large Cap hit by Freeney and Mathis, though a majority of that is Freeney's. But Mathis is going to demand a lucrative long term contract, and that's going to be even more money for two defensive ends, who can't play the run, and have lost a step or two!

[Ramblinwreck7]

It's a rather large Cap hit by Freeney and Mathis, though a majority of that is Freeney's. But Mathis is going to demand a lucrative long term contract, and that's going to be even more money for two defensive ends, who can't play the run, and have lost a step or two!

They haven't lost a step, and they are okay against the run, not horrible like most people like to say.

[Jason_]

They haven't lost a step, and they are okay against the run, not horrible like most people like to say.

True they are OK against the run, which is improved from several years ago when they were both horrible against the run. However they are both still susceptible, especially to draws and they don't always contain their side of the line. If the colts were to decide to part ways with one of them and draft Coples in the first round then I do think overall it would be an improvement to our defense because we need to start bringing in more versatile players. As it is now, teams often check to pass when Anderson and Brayton are in and check to runs when Mathis and Freeney are in. Add to that that Mathis and Freeney are splitting time with both Anderson and Brayton and they're not either one every down DEs anymore like they used to be. Imo I'd have no problem with parting with one of them (especially if we could work a trade so we'd get a higher draft pick than we would get if we let one of them walk to FA and only get a compensatory pick) and bring in a more balanced DE that can play both the run and pass equally effectively.

A lot of this also depends on what happens with coaching over the offseason.

[a06cc]

I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. I think we could use a defensive end with proven talent instead of a work in progress type guy. I think the need to draft one could be addressed later. I hope we're getting a NT first before anything. This teams defense would improve a tremendous, because we have Nevis, Freeney and Mathis up front. You have to take the pressure and double teams off of them. I'd say in the 2013 draft when then look at getting a defense end. We still need a LB, SS and CB first. Each of these guys don't have to be elite. We're in position to draft higher quality players.

[colts52761]

what about Cam Johnson from Virginia?

[Jason_]

what about Cam Johnson from Virginia?

I like Cam Johnson too. He's on my list but I forgot to include him in my post above.

[Ramblinwreck7]

True they are OK against the run, which is improved from several years ago when they were both horrible against the run. However they are both still susceptible, especially to draws and they don't always contain their side of the line. If the colts were to decide to part ways with one of them and draft Coples in the first round then I do think overall it would be an improvement to our defense because we need to start bringing in more versatile players. As it is now, teams often check to pass when Anderson and Brayton are in and check to runs when Mathis and Freeney are in. Add to that that Mathis and Freeney are splitting time with both Anderson and Brayton and they're not either one every down DEs anymore like they used to be. Imo I'd have no problem with parting with one of them (especially if we could work a trade so we'd get a higher draft pick than we would get if we let one of them walk to FA and only get a compensatory pick) and bring in a more balanced DE that can play both the run and pass equally effectively.

A lot of this also depends on what happens with coaching over the offseason.

What really bugs me about this scenario is that it makes us take a major step back. We lose a proven and talented DE in Mathis and we get an unproven DE in Quinton Coples. He hasn't really produced well this year from what I've heard, and it sounds like he is a risky top pick. The worse part is that we lose out on the chance to add a star CB in maybe a guy like Morris Claiborne. We need a ton of help in the secondary and adding a playmaker like him at CB would be a huge boost. We would have more questions than answers if we let Robert Mathis go. We need to keep both Dwight Freeney and Mathis.

I think the problem is with how are defense uses our rotation at DE. I'm much rather see 1 run stopping DE and 1 pass rushing DE on the field than 2 run stopping DE's. Yes we'd be more sucseptible against the run, but it would help to eliminate our problems when teams switch to passing plays that sometimes turn into big gains against us. That's why I'd prefer to keep just one primarily run stopping DE in Jamaal Anderson and have 3 pass rushers in Freeney, Mathis, and Jerry Hughes. Eric Foster can also play DE in running situations while he also can play DT.

[doogansquest]

@Mameluc- All of these players are ideally third round and later.

@Ramblin- Maybe getting rid of them both right now is dramatic, but if Zimmer were the HC, it may actually work, look what he has done with a no notable name defensive line!

That HC thing isn't happening. We can't hedge our bets on a new coach coming in and dramatically improving the team overnight, especially if we dump two of our most talented players and leave the new coach with a shell of a line.

[GoGoColts]

Dealing the only bright spots on the defense to get better at other spots won't work. There is no sense in just shuffling weaknesses. In addition, we would never get the value out of Freeney and Mathis needed to make it worth it.

[Ramblinwreck7]

Dealing the only bright spots on the defense to get better at other spots won't work. There is no sense in just shuffling weaknesses. In addition, we would never get the value out of Freeney and Mathis needed to make it worth it.

Exactly, this is the reason that we should definitely keep both Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.

[BmoreColt]

I can understand keeping both, as I would like; however I would like to see two young DE's brought in who can play both the run and the pass. There is plenty of talent available later in the draft with some of our mid to later round selections. I think this would be wise and would present a great compliment to Freeney and Mathis, while keeping the Colts from being so predictable, with the run down DE's and the pass rushing DE's. Then there could be combinations of these players producing unpredictability!

[Ramblinwreck7]

I can understand keeping both, as I would like; however I would like to see two young DE's brought in who can play both the run and the pass. There is plenty of talent available later in the draft with some of our mid to later round selections. I think this would be wise and would present a great compliment to Freeney and Mathis, while keeping the Colts from being so predictable, with the run down DE's and the pass rushing DE's. Then there could be combinations of these players producing unpredictability!

The colts need to use one pass rushing DE and one run stuffing DE instead of 2 run stuffing DE's unless it's an obvious running play. I have noticed that Freeney and Mathis are in on a lot of running plays though... Freeney and Mathis are ok against the run though, so don't be to harsh on them. There are no better pass rushers in the NFL than those 2 put together in my opinion. They just need DT help to get rid of the double teams!

[BmoreColt]

Idk bro, I think Tuck and Pierre-Paul/ Osi and Peppers with Idonije are great pairings as well and have to be in the conversation. The rush the passer and stop the run, ironically the 4-3 is designed to stop the run on the way to the passer, the Colts didn't get the memo!

I may take Tuck and Osi / Pierre-Paul.. over Freeney and Mathis, they are younger, smaller contracts, and can rush the passer and stop the run on the way there!

[Ramblinwreck7]

Idk bro, I think Tuck and Pierre-Paul/ Osi and Peppers with Idonije are great pairings as well and have to be in the conversation. The rush the passer and stop the run, ironically the 4-3 is designed to stop the run on the way to the passer, the Colts didn't get the memo!

I may take Tuck and Osi / Pierre-Paul.. over Freeney and Mathis, they are younger, smaller contracts, and can rush the passer and stop the run on the way there!

No, see you adding Pierre-Paul to the mix though, which makes 3 good pass rushers! If Jerry Hughes can develop into our 3rd pass rusher, then that is what we will have! I'm saying just the 2 of Freeney and Mathis are the best pass rushers in the NFL. They are okay against the run, but very good at getting after the quarterback.

Just imagine next year, adding a top NT who can hold the point of attack against multiple blockers and blast through the middle of the O-line. Teams would have to double team him and maybe even Drake Nevis, he's got a great explosion of the snap. That would leave Freeney and Mathis with one on one's more often. But that's not the only part. Adding a talented CB or 2 to go along with Jerraud Powers and adding a talented SS to go along with Antoine Bethea to solidify the secondary while changing the scheme to use multiple zone and man coverages would give Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis extra time to get to the quarterback. That is a recipe for success if you ask me!

[Ramblinwreck7]

No, see you adding Pierre-Paul to the mix though, which makes 3 good pass rushers! If Jerry Hughes can develop into our 3rd pass rusher, then that is what we will have! I'm saying just the 2 of Freeney and Mathis are the best pass rushers in the NFL. They are okay against the run, but very good at getting after the quarterback.

Just imagine next year, adding a top NT who can hold the point of attack against multiple blockers and blast through the middle of the O-line. Teams would have to double team him and maybe even Drake Nevis, he's got a great explosion off the snap. That would leave Freeney and Mathis with one on one's more often. But that's not the only part. Adding a talented CB or 2 to go along with Jerraud Powers and adding a talented SS to go along with Antoine Bethea to solidify the secondary while changing the scheme to use multiple zone and man coverages would give Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis extra time to get to the quarterback. That is a recipe for success if you ask me!

[GrizzColt]

Cornerstones of a team are QB, DE, LT and CB. I think we have those except for CB. Isn't it somewhat possible, that just by drafting a truly gifted CB in this draft, it would dramatically lift our team? No team has an all pro at every position.

[Jason_]

Cornerstones of a team are QB, DE, LT and CB. I think we have those except for CB. Isn't it somewhat possible, that just by drafting a truly gifted CB in this draft, it would dramatically lift our team? No team has an all pro at every position.

IMO MLB is just as important as any position on defense, if not moreso. Other than that, yes I agree with you that adding a top notch CB would help every phase of our defense.

[BmoreColt]

Ramblin- That is the recipe for success! That's why I want Poe so bad! I just want another DE drafted who can stop the run on the way to the passer. I think Peppers, Tuck, and Allen represent that mold very well, and as Jason said earlier I would like to see DE's drafted for this team going forward capable of doing it all, so the Colts don't need a rotation with just run stuffing DE's!

[BmoreColt]

Jason- Thats why I want Te'o if he declares or Burfict!

[Ramblinwreck7]

Ramblin- That is the recipe for success! That's why I want Poe so bad! I just want another DE drafted who can stop the run on the way to the passer. I think Peppers, Tuck, and Allen represent that mold very well, and as Jason said earlier I would like to see DE's drafted for this team going forward capable of doing it all, so the Colts don't need a rotation with just run stuffing DE's!

I don't think there is a DE in the NFL that I would take over Freeney, he is one of the best pass rushers ever in my opinion. Remember, the Giants have very good DT's, so I'm willing to bet that Freeney and Mathis will look a lot better against the run if we get a top NT who can attack multiple blockers and get into the backfield.

Justin Tuck and Julius Peppers are very good against the run as DE's, but they are not as good as Dwight Freeney when it comes to rushing the passer.

The Giants rotate their entire D-line a lot, including there DE's so I don't understand you rotation comment. The colts just need to become less predictable... again, when it comes to rotating their D-line. It's not a good idea to put 2 strictly run stuffers at DE when your at midfield. They need to always have at least 1 pass rusher on the field at all times. I'd much rather see Jerry Hughes get one the field a lot instead of seeing Tyler Brayton and Jamaal Anderson on the field at the same time.

[BmoreColt]

The Giants rotate their D-line by adding Kiwi and Pierre Paul as DE's all of their DE's except Osi can stop the run.. Tuck used to play UT on the SuperBowl team. I would take Peppers over Freeney, and would really consider Tuck, they are freak athletes who can certainly get to the passer but play the run well and are able to recognize screens and other plays very well.