Peyton over Brady

[Andy]

I think you misunderstood my point completely. But thanks for bringing us back to the 'same old' Brady vs Manning debate that I thought we were all finally past. What I was trying to say is that when neither team has a 'championship caliber' defense, both Peyton and Brady have put up rediculous numbers. In '03 and '04, Brady had a darn good defense, which obviously helped win Superbowls. Nobody will deny that, and nobody will ever try. And even though you threw out stats about how poor the Colts defense was in their championship year, everyone who paid attention realized how well they played in the playoffs. In fact, I think they were even the #1 ranked defense in the playoffs that year. So all we've actually done is make the point that neither guy can win a championship without a good defense. And I think through careful analysis and experimentation, youll realize that that is often the case with championship teams.

The argument that Ive never quite understood is the one that says 'without Brady the Patriots are an 11 win team, without Peyton the Colts are a 3 win team'. That point comes out everytime someone runs out of actual points that can be proven, and someone needs some way to discredit Brady by calling him a system quarterback while Peyton Manning makes the world go round. Listen...all that argument proves is that Matt Cassell is better than Curtis Painter...and you know what? We all knew that anyway. Without Brady the Patriots won 7 fewer games than the year previous and they missed the playoffs. Not quite the point you want to be clinging to when trying to prove that Brady isnt as important to the Patriots as Peyton is to the Colts. And the honest to god fact is that nobody knows how the Colts would do should Peyton go down. Saying they are a 3-win team is pure speculation....no more, no less. If they had someone else under center, they would completely change the way they play...from the way they utilize their personnel to the general gameplan to the way the game is coached. Who knows...maybe the Colts (should they have one of the easiest schedules in NFL history as the Patriots did the year Brady was absent) find a way to win 4 games without Peyton instead of the 3 that everyone believes. With the talent on that team, it wouldnt surprise me one bit. Well guess what? Thats 7 less than Peyton won this year....exactly the same fewer that the Patriots won without Brady.

We know that without Manning the Colts are a 3 or 4 win team because we've seen Painter in the backfield, and how bad he is. Now if the Colts have a different quarterback, it wouldn't make a huge difference, because the Colts revolve their offense around Peyton, and what happens if you take the engine out of a car, you can't drive. The Patriots revolve around Belicheck and the Colts revolve around Manning, not Caldwell. Not to your point before hand about the defense and stuff. I agree, it's really hard to win a SB without a good defense... I can't think of a SB winning team from the last 15 years that had a bad defense, really I can't. Now in 01', you guys got lucky plain and simple: Tuck Rule, Bledsoe in the AFC Championship vs Backup QB, and your defense stopping the SB. In 03', who kicked the SB winning kick, not Brady, Adam Vinateri. Yes Brady drove them down the field, but without Vinateri who knows where Brady would be, and the same in the 01 championship. The 04' SB was Brady, can't deny it. Manning got help, but without him, they wouldn't be there, because the backup would have been Jim Sorgi. Brady had Bledsoe and bailed him in 01.

In 08, the Colts had the NFC North, AFC North, our division, the Steelers, and the Pats... that's not easy. The Pats had the NFC West, your division, AFC West, the Colts, and the Steelers. You had the easier schedule that year.

All in all, we have a good idea how the Colts would do without Manning, b/c of Painter, and the fact that the Colts rely and revolve their offense around Peyton, and the Patriots around Belicheck. And I'll this argument by saying that yes indeed, Peyton Manning is better. Do you think Manning is better than Brady, dynasty?

[dynasty13]

We know that without Manning the Colts are a 3 or 4 win team because we've seen Painter in the backfield, and how bad he is. Now if the Colts have a different quarterback, it wouldn't make a huge difference, because the Colts revolve their offense around Peyton, and what happens if you take the engine out of a car, you can't drive. The Patriots revolve around Belicheck and the Colts revolve around Manning, not Caldwell. Not to your point before hand about the defense and stuff. I agree, it's really hard to win a SB without a good defense... I can't think of a SB winning team from the last 15 years that had a bad defense, really I can't. Now in 01', you guys got lucky plain and simple: Tuck Rule, Bledsoe in the AFC Championship vs Backup QB, and your defense stopping the SB. In 03', who kicked the SB winning kick, not Brady, Adam Vinateri. Yes Brady drove them down the field, but without Vinateri who knows where Brady would be, and the same in the 01 championship. The 04' SB was Brady, can't deny it. Manning got help, but without him, they wouldn't be there, because the backup would have been Jim Sorgi. Brady had Bledsoe and bailed him in 01.

In 08, the Colts had the NFC North, AFC North, our division, the Steelers, and the Pats... that's not easy. The Pats had the NFC West, your division, AFC West, the Colts, and the Steelers. You had the easier schedule that year.

All in all, we have a good idea how the Colts would do without Manning, b/c of Painter, and the fact that the Colts rely and revolve their offense around Peyton, and the Patriots around Belicheck. And I'll this argument by saying that yes indeed, Peyton Manning is better. Do you think Manning is better than Brady, dynasty?

At times, absolutely. As I said earlier in the thread, sometimes when I watch Peyton and see what he does out there, I think hes the best of all time. But then there are times when I watch Brady and I cant believe some of the things I see him do on the field and I think hes the greatest Ive ever seen. Thats what Ive been saying in this thread...its not cut and dry black and white like many want to believe. These guys are both pretty good...theyve both accomplished some pretty amazing things. And they both are perfect fits for their teams and what their teams do. The Colts are built around Peyton...but as hard as you want to believe it, theres no guarantee that should he go down, the Colts wouldnt try new things to build around the strengths of whoever steps in. When Brady went down in '08, the Patriots offense didnt even begin to resemble anything that we'd been accustomed to seeing when Brady's in there. All of a sudden we had a quarterback who was running for first downs instead of finding the 2nd or 3rd option. Opposing fans see that we won 11 games and act like thats some sort of proof that we dont need Brady. What Patriots fans saw that year was different. We saw the gameplan completely change...we saw the team play to our backups strengths...and we happened to have lucked out by having one of the weakest schedules in NFL history which allowed us to win a bunch of games while still missing out on the playoffs.

I guess what Im saying is that the 'Patriots are an 11 win team without Brady while the Colts are a 3 win team without Peyton' argument needs to be thrown out. Many of you walk around and throw that line out there like it proves something...but in reality, what we're talking about is a 2008 Patriots season based on circumstance vs a yet to be seen Colts season based on speculation. And speculation can not be used in a case when you're trying to prove something. It just cant.

Brady's peers just voted him as the best player in the league. Brady just said Peyton is the best player hes seen. Thats a pretty good mutual admiration society all around if you ask me.

[Peytongirl]

....

Brady's peers just voted him as the best player in the league. Brady just said Peyton is the best player hes seen. Thats a pretty good mutual admiration society all around if you ask me.

^^^^^

This! A case can always be made for either depending on what set of factors you choose. The fact that both of the fellas would readily pick the other says a whole lot.

We as football fans are simply very fortunate to be in an era to watch both play at their peak and against one another...because it is a blast and is an awesome rivalry. :highfive: One, without the other, and things wouldn't be nearly as interesting. One team would simply dominate over all. You have to have balance in the force. ;)

[GoPats]

Record Winning Streaks: 23 straight games... 2 seasons where they won the first 14 games... 10 straight years with 4000+ yards, never missed an NFL snap... and the list goes on and on

Correction - 23 straight REGULAR SEASON games. The record for games including the playoffs is 21, which the Patriots set from 2003-2004. The '08-'09 Colts won 23 regular season games but lost a playoff game in the middle of that "streak."

Is the rest of the list as inaccurate as the first part? J/K, J/K...

[NYColt]

Opposing fans see that we won 11 games and act like thats some sort of proof that we dont need Brady. What Patriots fans saw that year was different. We saw the gameplan completely change...we saw the team play to our backups strengths...and we happened to have lucked out by having one of the weakest schedules in NFL history which allowed us to win a bunch of games while still missing out on the playoffs.

I guess what Im saying is that the 'Patriots are an 11 win team without Brady while the Colts are a 3 win team without Peyton' argument needs to be thrown out. Many of you walk around and throw that line out there like it proves something...but in reality, what we're talking about is a 2008 Patriots season based on circumstance vs a yet to be seen Colts season based on speculation. And speculation can not be used in a case when you're trying to prove something. It just cant.

Brady's peers just voted him as the best player in the league. Brady just said Peyton is the best player hes seen. Thats a pretty good mutual admiration society all around if you ask me.

The whole "Patriots won 11 games with Cassel" argument is silly - no team is the same from one year to another, and that year the Patriots had a weak schedule and posted something like a 1-4 record against teams with winning records and the drop-off from a dominant 16-0 team to a scrappy 11-5 team was significant. Besides, the Colts went 6-10 under Manning, so what does it prove?

Personally I think Manning is better than Brady but not for stupid reasons like the fact the Patriots went 11-5 without Brady - one team having a better backup than another team is not a valid argument in a head-to-head comparison. I see little reason to see why Brady couldn't succeed with the Colts or any other elite QB, for that matter.

The reason I think Manning is better than Brady has more to do with his productivity, ability to make players around him better, ability to cover up weaknesses of the team (last year with an atrocious O-line, no running game, JV receivers, horrific D that gave him few offensive posessions per game) and carry the team consistently year-in year-out (look at Brees - the year he won the Superbowl he had a good D, excellent O-line with league best interior O-line and a top 5 running game ..the following season without that same running game and turnovers generated by his D he went back to the old turnover prone Brees).

I actually think the gap between Manning and Brady isn't as large as it used to be - it's hard to not acknowledge Brady as the top player heading into 2011 on the strength of last year (I think his 2010 was more impressive than his 2007 regular season due to the turnover and rebuilding) but of late, the two QBs have taken turns at being the best QB for a season (they've both won the last 4 straight MVPs) so I don't think it should mean much - obviously Brady has the hot hand right now while Manning's reputation has been taking a pounding this off-season.

On a side note, Cassel is a terrible QB - whatever numbers he posted last season were smoke and mirrors ..the number of deep balls Moss caught between 2007 and 2008 fell off substantially (yet that might've been his best year as a PRO because he easily could've tanked the season and pouted) and it still sucks with the Chiefs. Plus that O-line that looked like an impenetrable fortress around Brady in 2007 suddenly was a sieve with Cassel's awful pocket presence.

[Thewholefnshow28]

Not another Brady vs. Manning thread.

[colts89]

Not another Brady vs. Manning thread.

in the history of colts forum...

:worthy: Manning>brady

[GoPats]

Not another Brady vs. Manning thread.

The more things change, buddy... the more the more they remain the same.

[Thewholefnshow28]

The more things change, buddy... the more the more they remain the same.

Well what better way than to ring in the new forum than with a Manning vs. Brady thread.

A Manning/Brady thread would not be the same without this one question that non Colts fan always get after giving a reasonble rebuttal to Colts homers.

GoPats your a Pats fan why are you on a Colts forum.

[shecolt]

Well what better way than to ring in the new forum than with a Manning vs. Brady thread.

A Manning/Brady thread would not be the same without this one question that non Colts fan always get after giving a reasonble rebuttal to Colts homers.

GoPats your a Pats fan why are you on a Colts forum.

I've always loved that one too. How dare a fan of another team register here and then actually post something reasonable???

[doogansquest]

No one denies this; at least not people with eyes, a brain capable of rational thought, and a stat-sheet.

The NFL Network voted Brady on top because of the season he just had. That list is done annually and is based entirely on the hot topic of the moment. In this case, yes, Brady is the best player heading into the 2011 season based on his 2010 performance.

For their careers and where they stand all time? Not even close. Brady is at least 10 spots behind Manning as far as general players are concerned, and probably 3-4 spots behind him in the list for Quarterbacks.

[BlueRedZone]

way to break in the new forum. btw. isn't this our 3rd forum of the off season? Are we working harder this off season than some of the players?

[BlueRedZone]

btw. nice to finally have the screen name back. two boards before had my number I guess.

[Coltssouth]

way to break in the new forum. btw. isn't this our 3rd forum of the off season? Are we working harder this off season than some of the players?

Yeah. I think you have a point there.

Some of the things we do for our team!

[Peytongirl]

Yeah. I think you have a point there.

Some of the things we do for our team!

Amen to that! At least we finally get our :nonsense: together! rotfl *note to NFL!* :spock:

[wordofmouth]

As absurd as these Manning verse Brady threads are, the thing that really gets me is how stupid people sound when they try to make a case about how the other guy isn't really that good.

Imagine that we looked back 20 years at a forum ( I know they didn't exist then) with people arguing how Marino, Elway and Montanna were over rated. It would seem so silly.

The fact of the matter is if Brady was on the Colts all the colts fans would be saying he was the greatest and vice a versa.

Just sit back and enjoy watching two of the best of all time and be glad your not watching Tony Eason and Mike Pagal.

[braveheartcolt]

Correction - 23 straight REGULAR SEASON games. The record for games including the playoffs is 21, which the Patriots set from 2003-2004. The '08-'09 Colts won 23 regular season games but lost a playoff game in the middle of that "streak."

Is the rest of the list as inaccurate as the first part? J/K, J/K...

Aren't the majority of NFL stats driven by the regular season? Play-offs...PLAY-OFFS!!! Nice to see you GP.....

[21isSuperman]

Aren't the majority of NFL stats driven by the regular season? Play-offs...PLAY-OFFS!!! Nice to see you GP.....

[doogansquest]

The argument that Ive never quite understood is the one that says 'without Brady the Patriots are an 11 win team, without Peyton the Colts are a 3 win team'. That point comes out everytime someone runs out of actual points that can be proven, and someone needs some way to discredit Brady by calling him a system quarterback while Peyton Manning makes the world go round. Listen...all that argument proves is that Matt Cassell is better than Curtis Painter...and you know what? We all knew that anyway. Without Brady the Patriots won 7 fewer games than the year previous and they missed the playoffs. Not quite the point you want to be clinging to when trying to prove that Brady isnt as important to the Patriots as Peyton is to the Colts. And the honest to god fact is that nobody knows how the Colts would do should Peyton go down. Saying they are a 3-win team is pure speculation....no more, no less. If they had someone else under center, they would completely change the way they play...from the way they utilize their personnel to the general gameplan to the way the game is coached. Who knows...maybe the Colts (should they have one of the easiest schedules in NFL history as the Patriots did the year Brady was absent) find a way to win 4 games without Peyton instead of the 3 that everyone believes. With the talent on that team, it wouldnt surprise me one bit. Well guess what? Thats 7 less than Peyton won this year....exactly the same fewer that the Patriots won without Brady.

Even your own Rodney Harrison made this point following NFL.com's Top 100 Players of 2011 thingy was over.

How do we know this to be true? Well, what record do the Colts have with either Sorgi or Painter taking the snaps? They've won 1 game, I think, with Sorgi, during the last game of a season against the Titans (who had also clinched a playoff spot and were thus, fielding back ups). Otherwise, they lose. And it's often not close.

Is Cassel better than Sorgi or Painter? Probably, but that's because he understood the Patriots system. Sorgi and Painter are likely also system guys, because that's all they've been. Well, the Colts don't have a system. They throw suggestions around and let Peyton come up with the offense. That's a risk he takes, as opposed to allowing good coaches to devise a good plan. He has simply been able to pull it off because of who he is.

While ultimately, it may only prove the quality of their back ups, it also proves the quality of the coaching staff at each respective organization, and the quality of the team in each phase of the game. How good were the Patriots special teams during their Super Bowl runs? How good have the Colts been in that area....ever? Just about dead last. What about the defenses? The Patriots were top 10, consistently, all three years they won it. The Colts had one, 4 game run that helped them win it all. Otherwise, the Colts are often between 25-30 in total defense. And the offensive lines? Manning has, on average, less than 1.7 seconds before a defender has broken free or has gotten into the backfield. Brady averages 2.8 seconds before that happens, and it's only down that far because his O-line dipped a little towards the end of last season.

Also, Brady is a better QB now than he was when they were winning Super Bowls, yet he's lost his last 3 playoff games and threw 3 picks in the last game he won in the post season. This is proof positive that he has less to do with that team's success than Manning does with his. Brady won Super Bowls when he was green, has since gotten better as a player, but the team has gotten worse in the post-season. Manning's playoff record is better the last 5 years than is Tom's, despite his team getting worse/older. The Colts haven't had the luxury of 10 draft picks per year to load up on youthful talent either. The Patriots seem to have an endless stream of quality players they can trade for high picks.

The Patriots organization is flat-out better from top-to-bottom than the Colts have been for the last 10-12 years. The Patriots would still be good without Brady; not necessarily great, but good, because they have quality parts everywhere, and fundamentally sound trench play. The Colts would/will collapse without Manning.

[dynasty13]

Even your own Rodney Harrison made this point following NFL.com's Top 100 Players of 2011 thingy was over.

How do we know this to be true? Well, what record do the Colts have with either Sorgi or Painter taking the snaps? They've won 1 game, I think, with Sorgi, during the last game of a season against the Titans (who had also clinched a playoff spot and were thus, fielding back ups). Otherwise, they lose. And it's often not close.

Is Cassel better than Sorgi or Painter? Probably, but that's because he understood the Patriots system. Sorgi and Painter are likely also system guys, because that's all they've been. Well, the Colts don't have a system. They throw suggestions around and let Peyton come up with the offense. That's a risk he takes, as opposed to allowing good coaches to devise a good plan. He has simply been able to pull it off because of who he is.

While ultimately, it may only prove the quality of their back ups, it also proves the quality of the coaching staff at each respective organization, and the quality of the team in each phase of the game. How good were the Patriots special teams during their Super Bowl runs? How good have the Colts been in that area....ever? Just about dead last. What about the defenses? The Patriots were top 10, consistently, all three years they won it. The Colts had one, 4 game run that helped them win it all. Otherwise, the Colts are often between 25-30 in total defense. And the offensive lines? Manning has, on average, less than 1.7 seconds before a defender has broken free or has gotten into the backfield. Brady averages 2.8 seconds before that happens, and it's only down that far because his O-line dipped a little towards the end of last season.

Also, Brady is a better QB now than he was when they were winning Super Bowls, yet he's lost his last 3 playoff games and threw 3 picks in the last game he won in the post season. This is proof positive that he has less to do with that team's success than Manning does with his. Brady won Super Bowls when he was green, has since gotten better as a player, but the team has gotten worse in the post-season. Manning's playoff record is better the last 5 years than is Tom's, despite his team getting worse/older. The Colts haven't had the luxury of 10 draft picks per year to load up on youthful talent either. The Patriots seem to have an endless stream of quality players they can trade for high picks.

The Patriots organization is flat-out better from top-to-bottom than the Colts have been for the last 10-12 years. The Patriots would still be good without Brady; not necessarily great, but good, because they have quality parts everywhere, and fundamentally sound trench play. The Colts would/will collapse without Manning.

The point is that Ive never understood how that argument is related to the 'Manning vs Brady' thing. Even taking everything you just said into account, all it proves is that the Colts rely more on Peyton and havent had to change anything because they havent yet been without him. The fact that the Colts as a whole are worse and therefor they rely more on Manning doesnt automatically mean hes better. Again...im not giving my opinion either way on who I think the best is...ive already said what I think about the debate on both sides...Im simply making the point that the arguments people make dont seem to apply to the actual topic. Doing more with less doesnt prove whos better. Winning more championships than the other doesnt prove whos better. The fact that one team would fall apart without one while a completely different team can 'survive' without the other doesnt prove whos better. Believe it or not...the Colts do have some pretty good talent. The Patriots do have some pretty good talent. Thats why the debate goes back and forth and people are finally realizing that there is no answer. Any case could be made for each. The things they accomplish, even the individual records, are still based on the circumstances that surround them and the personnel they get to work with. Theres always a new argument that can be made and an earlier one that can be refuted based on how things continue to evolve in this league. It will never end.

[ViriLudant]

No one denies this; at least not people with eyes, a brain capable of rational thought, and a stat-sheet.

The NFL Network voted Brady on top because of the season he just had. That list is done annually and is based entirely on the hot topic of the moment. In this case, yes, Brady is the best player heading into the 2011 season based on his 2010 performance.

For their careers and where they stand all time? Not even close. Brady is at least 10 spots behind Manning as far as general players are concerned, and probably 3-4 spots behind him in the list for Quarterbacks.

:scared:

Wow, this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

ACtually, the NFL Network top 100 was NOT based on just 2011. As was discussed on the other forum, there was NO criteria for this selection. Many NFL players voted on it based on each player's entire career.

You do realize that Peyton's best season isn't better than Brady's top TWO seasons, right?

Or that the QB's main goal is to lead his team to wins, right? Which QB has been better at that?

Brady's stats are just as good as Peyton's, he has better playoff stats, he's done MORE with less (anyone want to dare compare Brady's WR corp over the past 10 years with Peyton's? Yeah, didn't think so).

Peyton has done nothing close to Brady's last season, with a 9:1 TD-to-INT ratio.

[WSO]

:scared:

Wow, this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

ACtually, the NFL Network top 100 was NOT based on just 2011. As was discussed on the other forum, there was NO criteria for this selection. Many NFL players voted on it based on each player's entire career.

You do realize that Peyton's best season isn't better than Brady's top TWO seasons, right?

Or that the QB's main goal is to lead his team to wins, right? Which QB has been better at that?

Brady's stats are just as good as Peyton's, he has better playoff stats, he's done MORE with less (anyone want to dare compare Brady's WR corp over the past 10 years with Peyton's? Yeah, didn't think so).

Peyton has done nothing close to Brady's last season, with a 9:1 TD-to-INT ratio.

Many players have come out and said in interviews they had no say in the top 100 players of the 2010 season. It was literally made up by NFL Network to get some viewers while this whole lockout thing is happening.

Also your arguments make no sense. You've got to be trolling.

Lets say for instance this season. Manning had arguably his 2nd best season of his career besides his 49 TD season. Manning did it without Harrison, without Collie for most of the season, without Clark for the 2nd half of the season, without Joseph Addai for a few weeks. Manning had Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Blair White, and Jacob Tamme. The point I'm getting at is this argument simply doesn't work because with your logic Manning should've had a * poor season. Hell Reggie was doubled for most of the season and Garcon was supposed to have his break out season and didn't. Oh and Reggie Wayne had 1 catch for 1 yard against the Jets but Manning still led the Colts to a potentially game winning FG with :53 seconds left against the Jets. Then the special teams let the Jets return a long one and the secondary couldn't stop Edwards for a couple plays.

But I agree that for the earlier part of his career 00 - 06 Manning has had the better receiving corps while the last few seasons hes had to do a lot with players like Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, and they still don't have a solid replacement for Marvin yet. While since 07' Brady has had Wes Welker, Randy Moss, and that one season Donte Stallworth. That was a far superior WR crew than what Manning has had the past few years. Hell even last year the Pats had a far better WR/TE corps than what Manning had (Welker, Branch, Tate, Hernandez, Edelman, Gronkowski). So yes I dare compare the WR corps.

Also you're telling me Manning 49TD season is less then TWO of Brady's best seasons? The 50 TD season makes sense but there is no other season where Brady has outplayed Mannings 49 TD season (121 QB Rating). And for the record comparing Brady to Manning career-wise is unfair because Brady has played less seasons (one due to injury as well). Mannings career stats are monumental next to Brady's.

You either have to be a troll or the dumbest patriots fan I've seen on this board yet.

[ViriLudant]

Tell me this, ssarow:

Who did Brady have to throw to this year who's as good as Wayne? You do realize that Moss was gone well before midseason, yes?

Look at the Patriots' roster for 2010:

Deion Branch WR 31 5-9 195 10 Louisville

11 Julian Edelman WR 25 5-10 198 3 Kent State

19 Brandon Tate WR 23 6-1 195 3 North Carolina

83 Wes Welker WR 30 5-9 185 8 Texas Tech

82 Alge Crumpler TE 33 6-2 275 10 North Carolina

87 Rob Gronkowski TE 22 6-6 265 2 Arizona

85 Aaron Hernandez TE 21 6-1 245 2 Florida

Branch was a "washed up" WR in Seattle, and no one wanted him.

Edelman? A poor man's Wes Welker.

Brandon Tate barely saw the field.

Alge's a season or two away from retiring, and the other two TE's are rookies.

Yet Brady had a PHENOMENAL season.

Look back at 2006; Brady led his team to an AFCCG that the Patriots should have won if it wasn't for a defensive collapse in the 2nd half.

Tell me, who was Brady's best WR in 2006? RECHE CALDWELL. Tell me when Peyton's had as bad of a WR corp as Brady did that year.

Btw, at using QB rating as the way to measure a QB. And you dare to call ME a troll? Learn your stats, please.

[Kumar]

But I agree that for the earlier part of his career 00 - 06 Manning has had the better receiving corps while the last few seasons hes had to do a lot with players like Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, and they still don't have a solid replacement for Marvin yet. While since 07' Brady has had Wes Welker, Randy Moss, and that one season Donte Stallworth. That was a far superior WR crew than what Manning has had the past few years. Hell even last year the Pats had a far better WR/TE corps than what Manning had (Welker, Branch, Tate, Hernandez, Edelman, Gronkowski). So yes I dare compare the WR corps.

Yes, lets start at '07.

2007: Brady had Welker, Stallworth and Moss. Great weapons except for the fact that Welker was pretty much an unknown this year. Did you know that he was undrafted and was actually cut before the regular season started. His best accomplishment was being the 3rd WR on an awful Miami team. Let's just say he wasn't a household name then - not exactly someone opposing CBs would lose sleep on. He got traded to NE and suddenly his numbers went up. Way up. Why did you think this happened? But anyway, the fact that all three WRs were playing on the same team at the same time meant that yes, Brady did have legitimate offensive weapons that year (for a change), and we now know what happens when this happens - he tends to break a few records along the way.

2008: No Stallworth. Only Welker and Moss. The problem is...no Brady either. Skip this year.

2009: Moss is there. So is Welker. The problem is Brady was recovering from a serious knee injury and was basically rehabbing it as he played throughout the year. He ended the season with 3 broken ribs and still was selected to the Pro Bowl and was even named Comeback Player of the Year.

2010: No Moss, Welker's there except he was recovering from a serious knee injury. Basically same type of injury suffered by Brady the year before, except much worse. No one expected him to be playing last year, the fact that he even came back was an accomplishment on itself. They drafted Gronk and Hernandez so these guys did make significant contributions. But you have to realize, they were rookies. I've never seen a QB rely so heavily on rookies and have the same degree of success Brady had with his rookie WRs. He actually won an MVP out of it, and broke a few records as well.

From 2007-2010, there really are only 2 years in which Brady had a full compliment of WRs at his disposal. And in those 2 years, Brady received a few honors and recognition.

BTW, Tate was pretty much a rookie in 2010 as he did not play at all in 2009. Edelman is just a body. He's much less of a weapon to Brady as Garcon is to Manning. Edelman wasn't even a WR in college. I noticed you left out Woodhead. He played a big role last year and would have supported your argument. But just like Welker, he was one of those unknowns Belichik brought in. Calling this guy small is an understatement. He was undrafted, was cut several times, was placed on IR, and was placed on the practice squad. Again, not exactly what you'd like to call an offensive "dynamo". And yet he excelled in NE. I would like to think Brady had something to do with this.

I'm not trying to discredit Manning's accomplishments. He had some really great years and have won numerous MVPs and will undoubtedly be in the HOF. I am simply pointing out Brady's potential given the magnificent supporting cast Manning enjoyed for most of his success.

[21isSuperman]

I don't get why everyone feels the need to say one is better than the other. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy the fact that we have 2 HOF QBs that provide us with awesome games every year? We are lucky enough to be witnessing 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL in their primes. Instead of making everything an argument (that ends up inconclusively and usually results in childish antics), just enjoy the entertainment. If you ask me, it's impossible to compare the two. The two play in different systems, were brought up differently in terms of their football, have had different coaches, have had different expectations and have played with different types of players. It's impossible to compare the two. Colts fans respect Brady and Pats fans respect Manning; Brady and Manning have the utmost respect for each other. I guess I don't have a problem with these threads as long as people are respectful and rational, but they usually end up with people being sarcastic and rude to each other for no reason.

In regards to the top 100 list, I think it was only done by some of the players at the Pro Bowl, not every singly player in the NFL. I was against that list from the beginning, it was completely pointless and players were held to different standards compared to one another for the same accolades. Eric Berry has a good rookie season and not really anything for his NFL career and makes the list whereas McNabb has a brutal 2010 but has a stellar career and makes the list.

[GoPats]

I don't get why everyone feels the need to say one is better than the other. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy the fact that we have 2 HOF QBs that provide us with awesome games every year? We are lucky enough to be witnessing 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL in their primes. Instead of making everything an argument (that ends up inconclusively and usually results in childish antics), just enjoy the entertainment. If you ask me, it's impossible to compare the two. The two play in different systems, were brought up differently in terms of their football, have had different coaches, have had different expectations and have played with different types of players. It's impossible to compare the two. Colts fans respect Brady and Pats fans respect Manning; Brady and Manning have the utmost respect for each other. I guess I don't have a problem with these threads as long as people are respectful and rational, but they usually end up with people being sarcastic and rude to each other for no reason.

You and your dang level-headed logic and stuff. ;)

This is, of course, a great post. And having trolled Colts boards for the past six or seven years, it's pretty obvious that our fan bases have grown to appreciate and respect the rival QBs. As we all should.

The only kind of argument that still annoys me is when someone (from either side) props up their guy and then says the other is not even close. The difference, if there is any, between Brady and Manning is so slight and so subtle that most of us non-professional observers wouldn't even be able to tell. Doogan, for instance, asserts that Brady is "10 spots off" from Manning in the all-time conversation. But anyone with an unbiased eye would disagree. Oh well... can't convince 'em all, I guess.

[dynasty13]

I don't get why everyone feels the need to say one is better than the other. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy the fact that we have 2 HOF QBs that provide us with awesome games every year? We are lucky enough to be witnessing 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL in their primes. Instead of making everything an argument (that ends up inconclusively and usually results in childish antics), just enjoy the entertainment. If you ask me, it's impossible to compare the two. The two play in different systems, were brought up differently in terms of their football, have had different coaches, have had different expectations and have played with different types of players. It's impossible to compare the two. Colts fans respect Brady and Pats fans respect Manning; Brady and Manning have the utmost respect for each other. I guess I don't have a problem with these threads as long as people are respectful and rational, but they usually end up with people being sarcastic and rude to each other for no reason.

In regards to the top 100 list, I think it was only done by some of the players at the Pro Bowl, not every singly player in the NFL. I was against that list from the beginning, it was completely pointless and players were held to different standards compared to one another for the same accolades. Eric Berry has a good rookie season and not really anything for his NFL career and makes the list whereas McNabb has a brutal 2010 but has a stellar career and makes the list.

Excellent post. Regardless of the 'faults' of this list and what its voting parameters were...I do feel like they got the top 2 correct if judging strictly by the 2010 season. And the ranking in no way influences the overall debate any more or any less than any of the other 'back and forth' rankings have gone over the past decade. It truly is one of the best team AND individual rivalries, all based on mutual respect...and its great to see that the respect has infected the fanbases after all these years as well.

[braveheartcolt]

You and your dang level-headed logic and stuff. ;)

This is, of course, a great post. And having trolled Colts boards for the past six or seven years, it's pretty obvious that our fan bases have grown to appreciate and respect the rival QBs. As we all should.

The only kind of argument that still annoys me is when someone (from either side) props up their guy and then says the other is not even close. The difference, if there is any, between Brady and Manning is so slight and so subtle that most of us non-professional observers wouldn't even be able to tell. Doogan, for instance, asserts that Brady is "10 spots off" from Manning in the all-time conversation. But anyone with an unbiased eye would disagree. Oh well... can't convince 'em all, I guess.

Yes, I agree. '10 spots' off is just ridiculous.

More like 20 if we are being honest.....

[GoPats]

Yes, I agree. '10 spots' off is just ridiculous.

More like 20 if we are being honest.....

Zing!

[bayone]

Zing!

I am a Peyton Loving Freak, but to say Brady is 10 stops away is ludicrous although on stampede blue a pat fan, at least he said he was, may have been a colt fan in disguise, went even further saying would take 5 years of pro bowl efforts to get Brady to where Manning is now, That is also nuts

\

BOTH ARE ABSOLUTELY STELLAR AND I AGREE TO SIT BACK & ENJOY THE SHOW and feel so privileged to have lived threw this time to enjoy it, same with when i watched Unitas, great for 1 club to have 2 great all time QBs

I hate this debate, the differences are just to slight to be definitive

Have a good day and whomever wants to debate this u guys go ahead

for me i said my piece

[braveheartcolt]

Zing!

Okay, I was joking. 15.

17 / 18 / 19th August if you fancy a beer somewhere in Boston. Mrs Wallace is dying to meet you. Told her you were a bit of a jerk, but that didn't dissuade her....

You around?

[GoPats]

Okay, I was joking. 15.

17 / 18 / 19th August if you fancy a beer somewhere in Boston. Mrs Wallace is dying to meet you. Told her you were a bit of a jerk, but that didn't dissuade her....

You around?

Shiznits. Gonna be in NY and then FL that week with the in-laws. Suffice to say, I would prefer some suds in Boston. My regrets, sir.

[braveheartcolt]

Fackockta! Although, we are staying in NY 15th and 16th? Quick rendezvous perhaps? If not, another time bud. We'll be back for sure.....

[GoPats]

Fackockta! Although, we are staying in NY 15th and 16th? Quick rendezvous perhaps? If not, another time bud. We'll be back for sure.....

My timing could not be worse relative to your visit... we're driving down to NY on the 15th, flying to FL on the 16th, flying back to NY on the 22nd, and then driving back to MA on the 23rd. All so that I can spend the entire week with my mother-in-law. (So with or without you Wallace, I'll be raising my glass... many times.)

I wasn't sure what your dates would be this year with the old site down for a while. That temporary replacement was less-than-satisfactory.

Please tell Mrs. Wallace to rest assured though, as I'm certain that I will be as much of a jerk in 2012 as I am this year. ;)

[Peytongirl]

I don't get why everyone feels the need to say one is better than the other. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy the fact that we have 2 HOF QBs that provide us with awesome games every year? We are lucky enough to be witnessing 2 of the best players in the history of the NFL in their primes. Instead of making everything an argument (that ends up inconclusively and usually results in childish antics), just enjoy the entertainment. If you ask me, it's impossible to compare the two. The two play in different systems, were brought up differently in terms of their football, have had different coaches, have had different expectations and have played with different types of players. It's impossible to compare the two. Colts fans respect Brady and Pats fans respect Manning; Brady and Manning have the utmost respect for each other. I guess I don't have a problem with these threads as long as people are respectful and rational, but they usually end up with people being sarcastic and rude to each other for no reason.

In regards to the top 100 list, I think it was only done by some of the players at the Pro Bowl, not every singly player in the NFL. I was against that list from the beginning, it was completely pointless and players were held to different standards compared to one another for the same accolades. Eric Berry has a good rookie season and not really anything for his NFL career and makes the list whereas McNabb has a brutal 2010 but has a stellar career and makes the list.

LOL...I tried saying something to this effect earlier in the thread and no one wanted to listen to logic. rotfl Oh well. I completely agree though.

We need to just sit back and enjoy the history being made before out eyes. Things like this don't happen often.

[braveheartcolt]

Internet Forums - rival fans - logic?

Sorry PG, will never happen. And stop waving the white flag. You and Superman21 are just being nice, we all know Peyton is the Master. You can't kid a kidder.

Anyway, I enjoy all the 18-12 overtures.

[braveheartcolt]

My timing could not be worse relative to your visit... we're driving down to NY on the 15th, flying to FL on the 16th, flying back to NY on the 22nd, and then driving back to MA on the 23rd. All so that I can spend the entire week with my mother-in-law. (So with or without you Wallace, I'll be raising my glass... many times.)

I wasn't sure what your dates would be this year with the old site down for a while. That temporary replacement was less-than-satisfactory.

Please tell Mrs. Wallace to rest assured though, as I'm certain that I will be as much of a jerk in 2012 as I am this year. ;)

Aye Laddie, those last two sites were pretty dire. Real shame about our schedules. I'll raise a glass or two on your behalf.

Be good. What did you make of your draft btw? Better get back to football or we'll get into trouble!

[GoPats]

Aye Laddie, those last two sites were pretty dire. Real shame about our schedules. I'll raise a glass or two on your behalf.

Be good. What did you make of your draft btw? Better get back to football or we'll get into trouble!

This was the first year we said we would definitely make it happen, so we're not all that pathetic just yet. I know it's an annual thing for you and the missus so we'll see if we can pull it off next year!

Typical Belichick draft... they didn't get a pass rusher, made some head-scratching picks, and loaded up for next year again. All that said, I'm not nearly as smart as he is, so I'm sure they'll be OK. Good deal for the Colts beefing up the line... we won't get to see the Manning-Brady rivalry continue if they don't do a better job of protecting #18. He took some wicked shots last year!

[quietstrength]

Peyton isn't even the best Manning even when Eli loses this SB. The way Brady looked against the Ravens? That's Peyton EVERY playoff game minus the second half in the AFC title game in 06.

The argument for Peyton was always "look at this stats!" Well Brady actually has better stats than him the past few years, and has the hardware as well. Sure quarterbacks alone don't win hardware, but let's not pretend Brady didn't do his part to win those. In SB 38, he was single handedly the best player on the field, throwing for 350 yards and 3 TDs (Delhomme was also good too in the second half)...the defense had nothing to do with it.

Peyton is a guy in the early mid 2000s that was good for fantasy football stats only to not show up in the playoffs.

To me the GOAT is Montana. He never threw for 4,000 yards, but you just knew he was going to win the game. And while his teams were loaded, it's not like his defense was the 85 bears.

Manning is universally known as a choke artist. In fact, he's almost become irrevelant to most sports fans outside of Indy. He's an all time great who had a great career but even if he comes back will never even sniff a SB again on any team.

Not to mention his pick 6 against the Saints. But we all know Reggie ran the wrong route .

Fact is, football is a team game, but in the clutch I'd even take Eli before Peyton and that's all that matters. If Peyton were QBing this game for the Giants even in full health I wouldn't be nearly as afraid.

Btw also if you look at "regular season stats" as Colts love to, Brady has now thrown for 300 TD and 115 INT compared to Peyton's 399 TD and 199 INT. Much better TD/INT ratio than him, and not to mention Peyton started full time in 98 while Brady started full time in 01. Brady would be right around 400 TD with 3 more years, with less INT, and not in a dome.

[ATL87]

Brady goes out for a season = Pats go 11-5 with Matt Cassell, a player who never started a game in high school or college and isn't even on a roster right now. Peyton goes out for a season = Colts go 2-14 and the team is in complete shambles. The Falcons didn't play well all season leading up to the Colts game. Then Julio gets his first 2 TD's of his career and has a 100+ yards... From superpower to whipping boy just because Peyton injuries his neck...

Peyton > Brady.