Ray Rice Suspended

[Valpo2004]

Some of your comments come across that way.      Once again, I will not pretend to know  what your stance is.   If you say that you've never hit a woman, and never would, then  kudos to you...   I am happy to hear that.

 

I try to have the same respect for both equally.  I never said I gave the woman a "free pass" to hit.  

 

My statement is and always has been. . . I have never and would never hit ANYONE unless they hit me first.  

 

However my statement is also that if a woman does hit me first I'm not going to respond to her differently then I would a man.  

 

I hope no one hits me, but if someone does I hope it's a man. . . not because I would feel guilty about defending myself against a woman, but because the public believes I'm allowed to defend myself against men and my reputation would not suffer.  The public doesn't see things the same way when it's a woman.

[snkdy]

I agree. The punishment does not fit the crime. Maybe Goodell would think differently if it was his daughter that got socked.

 

Smoke weed and get 4 games, sock a woman and get 2??? Way to go Goodell, toe the party line to enable violence against women when the aggressor is an NFL player.

 

Exactly. What an embarrassment.

[chad72]

My statement is and always has been. . . I have never and would never hit ANYONE unless they hit me first.  

 

However my statement is also that if a woman does hit me first I'm not going to respond to her differently then I would a man.  

 

How does you responding with force to a woman that hit you make it right? If a random woman slaps me, I will first cuss her out. Force should not be the first resort.

 

I am not condoning a woman for raising her hand first but one can be a bigger man than they are by resisting, IMO. That might put an earlier stop to it if you cuss them out and walk away from it.

[NFLfan]

Benefit of the doubt. . . sounds a lot like innocent until proven guilty to me. I'm a big fan of it.

And female on male violence is seriously underestimated in this country . . . mostly because we are too busy laughing at it to actually recognize that it's violence and that it's wrong. It seems that it's typically funny for everyone except the victim who is put in a huge bind. Fight back and everyone rips on him and calls him a woman beater or stand there and take it and just continue to get hit.

Do you realize there are more shelters for abused donkey's in this world then men who are abused by their partners (male or female)??

Erin Pizzey attempted to rectify that situation and was targeted and her dog killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

She set up some of the first women's shelters. . . Then she recognized a lack of men's shelters. . . tries to set them up and she's a target.

You have mentioned that many times. I agree that there should be shelters for battered men too. There are women who beat men and the men do not receive the support they need. That is wrong. Since this means so much to you, have you thought of advocating for such services outside this forum? (This is a serious question.)

In another reply to me, you wrote you are not a wife beater. I never thought you were. You just have strong feelings about this. Anyway, I am going off topic and I don't want to have this thread closed.

I still think that the NFL is sending the wrong message when players are being suspended 4 games for marijuana use but only 2 games for an act of violence, especially one where someone is struck so hard that she is left unconscious.

[Valpo2004]

How does you responding with force to a woman that hit you make it right? If a random woman slaps me, I will first cuss her out. Force should not be the first resort.

 

I am not condoning a woman for raising her hand first but one can be a bigger man than they are by resisting, IMO. That might put an earlier stop to it if you cuss them out and walk away from it.

 

If a guy slaps you are you going to do the same thing?  

 

A slap is not a terribly threatening attack so I can see why you might not.  But women have and do hit with closed fists and rage.  It's not always just the walk up to you and slap you sort of thing.  

[Valpo2004]

You have mentioned that many times. I agree that there should be shelters for battered men too. There are women who beat men and the men do not receive the support they need. That is wrong. Since this means so much to you, have you thought of advocating for such services outside this forum? (This is a serious question.)

In another reply to me, you wrote you are not a wife beater. I never thought you were. You just have strong feelings about this. Anyway, I am going off topic and I don't want to have this thread closed.

I still think that the NFL is sending the wrong message when players are being suspended 4 games for marijuana use but only 2 games for an act of violence, especially one where someone is struck so hard that she is left unconscious.

 

You are presuming I don't advocate for these things outside of this forum.

 

I know you didn't think I was, I'm thanking you for not presuming that I am, you are debating fairly without strawmen.  

 

When you try to take a position such as this, people often accuse you of that.

[jvan1973]

At least I call it fairly, be it Raven's players, or individuals from other teams. That is my shield of credibility . I call it like it is.

Jima legal troubles are on going. The league will punish him once that is cleared up. You know this but continue to derail threads.

[Shane Bond]

My statement is and always has been. . . I have never and would never hit ANYONE unless they hit me first.  

 

However my statement is also that if a woman does hit me first I'm not going to respond to her differently then I would a man.  

 

I hope no one hits me, but if someone does I hope it's a man. . . not because I would feel guilty about defending myself against a woman, but because the public believes I'm allowed to defend myself against men and my reputation would not suffer.  The public doesn't see things the same way when it's a woman.

I see your point.

 

If a guy is stronger, its stupid of the women to even try to hit him and expect him to pardon her because she is a woman.

[jvan1973]

My question is this. If ray punched her hard enough in the face to knock her out, why was there no sign of bodily harm? No blood, swelling, no broken facial bones. That is my question. I used to box golden gloves. I would have bloody noses and black eyes and we had head gear and wore gloves

[amfootball]

You are presuming I don't advocate for these things outside of this forum.

 

I know you didn't think I was, I'm thanking you for not presuming that I am, you are debating fairly without strawmen.  

 

When you try to take a position such as this, people often accuse you of that.

I think your viewpoint is misplaced here. This thread is about a football player who knocked his fiancé unconscious and you are trying to lobby for men's right when they are attacked which is so far what has happened in this case. Makes no sense on this thread which is why you are getting flak.

[Valpo2004]

I see your point.

 

If a guy is stronger, its stupid of the women to even try to hit him and expect him to pardon her because she is a woman.

 

Bingo!  But that's what the public always wants him to do (pardon her). . . 

 

But at the same time no one would expect an NFL offensive lineman to pardon me if I ran up and hit him even though I'm clearly at a size disadvantage.  

[amfootball]

My question is this. If ray punched her hard enough in the face to knock her out, why was there no sign of bodily harm? No blood, swelling, no broken facial bones. That is my question. I used to box golden gloves. I would have bloody noses and black eyes and we had head gear and wore gloves

He could have hit her in the temple area in which there might not have been a lot of physical evidence. I never actually saw a close up pic of her to see for sure anyways.

[sweetsurrender]

Bingo!  But that's what the public always wants him to do (pardon her). . . 

 

But at the same time no one would expect an NFL offensive lineman to pardon me if I ran up and hit him even though I'm clearly at a size disadvantage.  

Gosh. Were you never taught as a man not to hit a woman? 

[rock8591]

Josh Gordon has the wrong vice. He needs to stop smoking pot, and start beating women.

[Valpo2004]

I think your viewpoint is misplaced here. This thread is about a football player who knocked his fiancé unconscious and you are trying to lobby for men's right when they are attacked which is so far what has happened in this case. Makes no sense on this thread which is why you are getting flak.

 

Well there seems to be at least some reports that she hit him first.  And my view is that IF she did hit him first then I think 2 games is right about where it should be.  A small disapproval for going overboard in your retaliation.  

 

Now if he hit her first then, by all means suspend him for the season.  

 

It sounds like who hit who first isn't very clear at this point. . . and she may have told Goodell that she hit him first.  Now she could have lied just to protect him, but if that's all he has to go on then punish based on that.

 

I think the lack of clarity is also shown in the fact that there have been no charges filed in this case as yet.  If it was clear he hit her first then he'd have been charged by now.

[snkdy]

My question is this. If ray punched her hard enough in the face to knock her out, why was there no sign of bodily harm? No blood, swelling, no broken facial bones. That is my question. I used to box golden gloves. I would have bloody noses and black eyes and we had head gear and wore gloves

 

Don't know, but the police report clearly indicated that he knocked her unconscious.

[snkdy]

Well there seems to be at least some reports that she hit him first.  And my view is that IF she did hit him first then I think 2 games is right about where it should be.  A small disapproval for going overboard in your retaliation.  

 

Now if he hit her first then, by all means suspend him for the season.  

 

It sounds like who hit who first isn't very clear at this point. . . and she may have told Goodell that she hit him first.  Now she could have lied just to protect him, but if that's all he has to go on then punish based on that.

 

I think the lack of clarity is also shown in the fact that there have been no charges filed in this case as yet.  If it was clear he hit her first then he'd have been charged by now.

 

Wasn't he charged (with third-degree aggravated assault)? It's only because he was accepted into a pre-trial intervention program that he avoided trial. At least, that's what I thought.

[NFLfan]

You are presuming I don't advocate for these things outside of this forum.

I know you didn't think I was, I'm thanking you for not presuming that I am, you are debating fairly without strawmen.

When you try to take a position such as this, people often accuse you of that.

I did not presume that you don't advocate for that. I asked you. That is why I wrote that it was a serious question. I think it is a good cause. Most men I know would not hit a woman even if the women hit them. At times, it could become an abuse situation and there is not much support for men, as it is often assumed that men could handle things on their own.

Still, I believe it is wrong for the NFL to give Rice less than a 4-game suspension. I wish they would explain their reasoning.

[Valpo2004]

Gosh. Were you never taught as a man not to hit a woman? 

 

Yeah, I was also taught that women where my equal to men and adults. 

 

These two statements together do not make any sense.

 

Therefore I have decided to presume women are equal and therefore can and should face equal consequences for their actions. 

 

Now if you want to come out and say your presumption is that women are mentally children and not capable of understanding the consequences of violence then I will accept your views as consistent although not agree with them.

 

But you can't say they are equal but say a man shouldn't defend himself if one attacks him.

[PrincetonTiger]

Wasn't he charged (with third-degree aggravated assault)? It's only because he was accepted into a pre-trial intervention program that he avoided trial. At least, that's what I thought.

That sounds right

[The Old Crow]

Jima legal troubles are on going. The league will punish him once that is cleared up. You know this but continue to derail threads.

Nah, I told BrentMc I would lay off, so you guys can enjoy battling about the battered man, battered woman angle. There will be time enough for more Irsay thoughts when the time comes up.

[Valpo2004]

I did not presume that you don't advocate for that. I asked you. That is why I wrote that it was a serious question. I think it is a good cause. Most men I know would not hit a woman even if the women hit them. At times, it could become an abuse situation and there is not much support for men, as it is often assumed that men could handle things on their own.

Still, I believe it is wrong for the NFL to give Rice less than a 4-game suspension. I wish they would explain their reasoning.

 

I do advocate for it yes.  Although I'm not a big organization guy . . . there are organizations that advocate for this but then hold other views that I can't support.  That's generally why I avoid most political organizations, I havn't found one yet that agrees with me in almost all cases.  

[jvan1973]

Nah, I told BrentMc I would lay off, so you guys can enjoy battling about the battered man, battered woman angle. There will be time enough for more Irsay thoughts when the time comes up.

oh BTW Ray initially plead not guilty as well

[The Old Crow]

oh BTW Ray initially plead not guilty as well

I did not know that, but glad he did the right thing. The truth always sets you free and allows you to move on.

[sweetsurrender]

Yeah, I was also taught that women where my equal to men and adults. 

 

These two statements together do not make any sense.

 

Therefore I have decided to presume women are equal and therefore can and should face equal consequences for their actions. 

 

Now if you want to come out and say your presumption is that women are mentally children and not capable of understanding the consequences of violence then I will accept your views as consistent although not agree with them.

 

But you can't say they are equal but say a man shouldn't defend himself if one attacks him.

I was talking about physicality which is the issue here. The majority of men are stronger than women hence why restraint should be shown. The same way an adult would show restraint against a child or a large man should show restraint against a smaller man. It is called human decency. This idea that because you are attacked means you have the right to retaliate is absurd. If we all behaved that way then humanity would cease to exist. Common decency is based on mercy and forgiveness and understanding when you hold the position of strength over someone else whether that he physically, mentally or emotionally and NOT giving them what they deserve.

[PrincetonTiger]

I did not know that, but glad he did the right thing. The truth always sets you free and allows you to move on.

The sad thing is that he basically admitted to it but gets the same NFL punishment guys get for an illegal hit in a game

[jvan1973]

I did not know that, but glad he did the right thing. The truth always sets you free and allows you to move on.

It's called a lawyer doing his job. You always plead not guilty initially. Then the lawyers and the prosecuter work out a plea deal. Basic defense 101

[The Old Crow]

It's called a lawyer doing his job. You always plead not guilty initially. Then the lawyers and the prosecuter work out a plea deal. Basic defense 101

I understand that. We can talk about that when the hour strikes twelve on that one. Like with Ray Rice, that hour is coming.

[Valpo2004]

I was talking about physicality which is the issue here. The majority of men are stronger than women hence why restraint should be shown. The same way an adult would show restraint against a child or a large man should show restraint against a smaller man. It is called human decency. This idea that because you are attacked means you have the right to retaliate is absurd. If we all behaved that way then humanity would cease to exist. Common decency is based on mercy and forgiveness and understanding when you hold the position of strength over someone else whether that he physically, mentally or emotionally and NOT giving them what they deserve.

 

I'm not talking about beating them to a pulp.  I'm talking about using enough counter violence that the person gets the picture to stop attacking you.

[The Old Crow]

The sad thing is that he basically admitted to it but gets the same NFL punishment guys get for an illegal hit in a game

I should have kept track of more of the particulars on Ray's case, but I think I wanted to block it out, as well as the other goofy Raven players who messed up. It's been very embarrassing to the Ravens organization.

[Shane Bond]

I was talking about physicality which is the issue here. The majority of men are stronger than women hence why restraint should be shown. The same way an adult would show restraint against a child or a large man should show restraint against a smaller man. It is called human decency. This idea that because you are attacked means you have the right to retaliate is absurd. If we all behaved that way then humanity would cease to exist. Common decency is based on mercy and forgiveness and understanding when you hold the position of strength over someone else whether that he physically, mentally or emotionally and NOT giving them what they deserve.

Based on your logic physically weaker should get away?.

[sweetsurrender]

I'm not talking about beating them to a pulp.  I'm talking about using enough counter violence that the person gets the picture to stop attacking you.

That is not what is coming across in your other posts.

[Valpo2004]

That is not what is coming across in your other posts.

 

Saying never hit a woman comes across as "just take it."

[PrincetonTiger]

I should have kept track of more of the particulars on Ray's case, but I think I wanted to block it out, as well as the other goofy Raven players who messed up. It's been very embarrassing to the Ravens organization.

and the league as a whole

[Valpo2004]

Based on your logic physically weaker should get away?.

 

I think what he's saying really doesn't matter in terms of physical ability. . . I think his point is that at some point you quit when you are convinced that they arn't going to start hitting you again.

 

I mean if someone hits you and you fight back and after a little bit he's on the floor and groaning. . . and you are pretty sure he's not getting back up anytime soon . . . then you would quit then no matter what his size. . . not run over there to stomp on him, kick him or otherwise try to hurt him worse.  That would be retaliation, not self defense.  

 

At least that's my impression.

[NFLfan]

I do advocate for it yes. Although I'm not a big organization guy . . . there are organizations that advocate for this but then hold other views that I can't support. That's generally why I avoid most political organizations, I havn't found one yet that agrees with me in almost all cases.

Okay. I wanted to engage you in this conversation because you often come off as angry when talking about this matter. And you receive angry responses. When you write that you would hit a woman back, you will not get much sympathy. Violence does not solve anything. What would you get out of hitting someone back (man or woman)? (Another serious question.)

[adamthyst]

So let me get this straight. Rice punches a woman, gets suspended two games. Mathis takes pills to have a child, gets suspended 4 games. Anyone else see something wrong with this

I was gonna post this until I saw you do it.

 

This is QFT.

[Valpo2004]

Okay. I wanted to engage you in this conversation because you often come off as angry when talking about this matter. And you receive angry responses. When you write that you would hit a woman back, you will not get much sympathy. Violence does not solve anything. What would you get out of hitting someone back (man or woman)? (Another serious question.)

 

Getting them to stop hitting me.

 

Mostly what I'm angry about is the presumption that he always started the violence.  We have this image of a cowering woman being recklessly and viciously attacked by her partner when we think of domestic violence. . . And that kind of stuff DOES happen in many cases.

 

But in reality what happens more often is both partners become violent with each-other and it escalates.  

 

And what happens equally as often as the cowering woman is a cowering man who's being viciously attacked by his partner and is too afraid to defend himself for a multitude of reasons.

[amfootball]

Getting them to stop hitting me.

 

Mostly what I'm angry about is the presumption that he always started the violence.  We have this image of a cowering woman being recklessly and viciously attacked by her partner when we think of domestic violence. . . And that kind of stuff DOES happen in many cases.

 

But in reality what happens more often is both partners become violent with each-other and it escalates.  

 

And what happens equally as often as the cowering woman is a cowering man who's being viciously attacked by his partner and is too afraid to defend himself for a multitude of reasons.

Do you have statistics to back up these assertions?

[amfootball]

http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/11245489/espnw-baltimore-ravens-ray-rice-nfl-domestic-violence-problem