The Film Room: Trent Richardson

[lollygagger8]

I will say T-Rich's jump cuts are pretty amazing. 

 

Our O-Line really didn't help Richardson at all: 

 

There's a reason Satele is sitting on a couch somewhere. I'm still in disbelief that McGlynn was not at Center for the duration. 

 

Jack Doyle and Coby Fleener are abysmal run blockers. 

[ruksak]

lol at coby fleener's pathetic attempts at blocking...

An aspect of our woeful running game in 2013 that gets consistently glossed over was the absence of Allen and Bradshaw. Those cats were brought here to run block (as well as the typical duties warranted of their respective positions), while Fleener was never intended to engage in such a way. Not that he shouldn't learn to block proficiently if he's gonna play as an NFL TE, but his role was to be the streaking seam, go-to prototype. 

 

Watching Coby last year reminded me of Dallas Clark in 2011. 

[Smurphy1]

When I looked at the article I could see where both the O-line certainly had issues but also where Richardson seemed to be too slow to get to the hole that did open, if even for a second or two.  I would say that the O-line issues contributed to Richardson's inability to adapt well to the new offense and made him hesitate more than he normally would.  Add that to trying to learn a whole new playbook and system and you have a back that is very ineffective.

 

I am willing to see what he does this season before I judge him too harshly.  It looks like he has the ability to be a high performer for us and be that workhorse back.  He just needs to be comfortable in the system and have a somewhat decent O-line.  Doesn't have to be stellar.  Just good enough.

 

You need to have the ball before you can hit the hole. Our line was so bad that it often collapsing before Richardson had even taken the handoff. That's not an issue of getting to the hole fast enough.

[CroatianColtsFan21]

An aspect of our woeful running game in 2013 that gets consistently glossed over was the absence of Allen and Bradshaw. Those cats were brought here to run block (as well as the typical duties warranted of their respective positions), while Fleener was never intended to engage in such a way. Not that he shouldn't learn to block proficiently if he's gonna play as an NFL TE, but his role was to be the streaking seam, go-to prototype. 

 

Watching Coby last year reminded me of Dallas Clark in 2011. 

 

i don't like when people make such excuses for coby.. he plays TE and if he was to be considered a good TE he should block maybe just a little bit.. it's painful watching him try to do a part of his job.. and it's not like he's a great receiver either.. 

 

it saddens me to see such a big man constantly whiffing on blocks..

[ruksak]

i don't like when people make such excuses for coby.. he plays TE and if he was to be considered a good TE he should block maybe just a little bit.. it's painful watching him try to do a part of his job.. and it's not like he's a great receiver either.. 

 

it saddens me to see such a big man constantly whiffing on blocks..

His size means little to nothing. NFL blocking is a very technique-centric affair. I doubt most 300lb defensive linemen could block for squat either. That being said, he's gonna need to pick it up and absorb some serious coaching. 

 

Do you think we should've traded Dallas Clark because he wasn't an adept blocker? Or do you think his strengths offset his shortcomings? 

[CroatianColtsFan21]

His size means little to nothing. NFL blocking is a very technique-centric affair. I doubt most 300lb defensive linemen could block for squat either. That being said, he's gonna need to pick it up and absorb some serious coaching.

Do you think we should've traded Dallas Clark because he wasn't an adept blocker? Or do you think his strengths offset his shortcomings?

Fair point..

I'll just say i'm happy we're getting allen back, now that's a tight end!

[ruksak]

Fair point..

I'll just say i'm happy we're getting allen back, now that's a tight end!

My belief is that Allen has innate Pro Bowl caliber skills. And you're 100% spot-on. Unlike fleener, Allen is a complete TE package. I would quantify Allen's worth as being beyond Fleener.

 

My memory doesn't serve me well, but wasn't Allen's draft value impacted by off-field issues, or something of that matter? Seems like I remember him being described as 1st round talent.....

[CroatianColtsFan21]

My belief is that Allen has innate Pro Bowl caliber skills. And you're 100% spot-on. Unlike fleener, Allen is a complete TE package. I would quantify Allen's worth as being beyond Fleener.

My memory doesn't serve me well, but wasn't Allen's draft value impacted by off-field issues, or something of that matter? Seems like I remember him being described as 1st round talent.....

You are right, allen even won the mackey award (for best college te in usa) over fleener, but i'm not sure exactly what issues caused him to drop in the draft..

Let's just be happy we got to pick him where we did ;)

[ruksak]

You are right, allen even won the mackey award (for best college te in usa) over fleener, but i'm not sure exactly what issues caused him to drop in the draft..

Let's just be happy we got to pick him where we did ;)

It's possible it was Allen's poor 40 time that dropped him, maybe someone with better memory can chime in? 

[chad72]

My belief is that Allen has innate Pro Bowl caliber skills. And you're 100% spot-on. Unlike fleener, Allen is a complete TE package. I would quantify Allen's worth as being beyond Fleener.

 

My memory doesn't serve me well, but wasn't Allen's draft value impacted by off-field issues, or something of that matter? Seems like I remember him being described as 1st round talent.....

 

Allen is a poor man's version of Gronkowski for our offense. Our offense benefits pretty much the same way the Pats' offense benefits when a healthy Gronk is in the line up due to all the things a rounded TE can do. He is not as refined/dangerous as Gronk or Tony Gonzo in the catching department but as an inline blocker and end zone target, he offers much more than just receiving, very similar to them.

[The Fish]

There's a certain amount of irony in your post. Brown fumbled in the KC game as well.

 

And the article mentions specifically the idea that Brown was able to move he ball behind the same o-line. It's true, but that statement doesn't acknowledge the different roles and the different circumstances for the two plays. In reality, while Brown had a little more success and popped more big plays, Brown also struggled with base run plays.

Irony? I didn't think so. 

 

Browns fumble wasn't recovered by KC and he also got all of the handoffs besides Trents 1. 

[Dustin]

It's possible it was Allen's poor 40 time that dropped him, maybe someone with better memory can chime in?

He was considered small and slow, with low upside as a receiver.

[Narcosys]

I think Thornton is as physically gifted as any guard in the NFL. He does make mistakes, but that's common for any rookie guard. Thornton is relatively new to football, so he needs coaching. I believe in his ability to play better as he gets more experience.

 

As for the smaller sample size, I understand that you can get a nice idea of what's happening without watching every play. But the premise in the article is that Richardson's problems were ALL about the blocking, and that's impossible to verify without watching EVERY play. The truth is that Richardson made plenty of mistakes himself last year. Even some of the plays the article breaks down, Richardson messed up by cutting back when he should have stayed moving forward playside. These are nitpicks; it's obvious that he was betrayed by poor blocking all year, but some of it was his fault.

 

I really liked that the author broke down Donald Brown's success. A lot of nickel and dime fronts, a lot of big chunks, but the majority of his damage came as the change back. Most of his carries, however, were statistically unimpressive. 

 

The other thing that stood out is that Richardson's athletic ability is considerable. A lot of the wiggles and shakes, and carrying tacklers, etc., made short gains out of what should have been losses. 

 

I don't think he'll ever live up to being the third overall pick, and I definitely don't think we should have given up a first rounder for him. But he can still be a productive back, much more productive than he was last year. We've got to get that line fixed, though.

 

Thats the whole point of random sampling.  The statistics and averages that you get from random sampling size will most likely continue and apply to the whole.  So even if he watched all of them, the premise is still sound.  Unless his somehow random sample size mysteriously excluded all of Richardsons bad plays.  Highly unlikely.

[Superman]

Thats the whole point of random sampling. The statistics and averages that you get from random sampling size will most likely continue and apply to the whole. So even if he watched all of them, the premise is still sound. Unless his somehow random sample size mysteriously excluded all of Richardsons bad plays. Highly unlikely.

Football analysis isn't best served by random sampling.

Also, I don't think the writer did random sampling. I think he watched a handful of games and broke those down. He didn't pick at random from all of Richardson's carries.

[Narcosys]

Football analysis isn't best served by random sampling.

Also, I don't think the writer did random sampling. I think he watched a handful of games and broke those down. He didn't pick at random from all of Richardson's carries.

Are those handful of games not random sampling of the different type of run plays that were executed?  Its not like only one type of run play was used in each game.

[coltsfanmilyman]

He was considered small and slow, with low upside as a receiver.

I know he was pretty mad, when we drafted him.  I remember the article where he said he was upset he was the 2nd TE taken that draft.  Considering he won the Mackey Award, I think he thought he would be the first taken.  Glad we did because like someone said earlier he is the new Ken Dilger, while Coby is more like Pollard/Clark.  

[Superman]

You're just now coming to this realization where Trent Richardson is concerned?

 

Yes, because this is literally the first time I've ever expressed that sentiment.

[Superman]

What do you think in regards to my opinion of 1 and 2 of my post above

 

I agree with both, although there were times when neither of them applied, of course. His jump cuts, for instance, were sometimes devastatingly effective, and other times, not so much. 

 

In all, I think we've spent too much time worrying about Trent Richardson. He didn't play well last year, we didn't block well for him, and the results are obvious. He needs to play better, the line needs to block better, the playcalling needs to be better, and hopefully, our rushing game will be much more effective.

[Superman]

When all the players on the O-line and the fullback make so many mistakes game after game all 2013, when do you look at the Offensive Line Coach?? Joe Gilbert. "Joe Gilbert was elevated to the team’s offensive line coach for the start of the 2013 campaign". Would you give this guy another try in 2014?? He has had college success, but maybe we should look at what is out there.

 

http://www.colts.com/team/coaches/Joe-Gilbert/6c25abe3-ee4d-449d-a99a-c95fb7fb07cb

 

That's obviously not going to change right now, but if we see mistakes and lack of attention to detail in 2014 like we did last year, then yeah, maybe the line coach needs to go.

[BOTT]

People who like Richardson will agree with this guy, people who don't like Richardson will agree with a guy like Ken Venturi...meh

[Superman]

Irony? I didn't think so. 

 

Browns fumble wasn't recovered by KC and he also got all of the handoffs besides Trents 1. 

 

So Brown's fumble is excused because it was recovered? That's not the way it works. 

[Superman]

Are those handful of games not random sampling of the different type of run plays that were executed?  Its not like only one type of run play was used in each game.

 

Not really. Gameplans change, opponents change, etc. And true random sampling gives each possible sample a chance of being selected. Choosing a few games automatically excludes the samples from the games that you're not watching.

 

I'm not saying that the writer cherry picked the games he wanted to study, but by leaving out > 60% of Richardson's carries, you're missing part of the picture. 

 

Besides all that, the best football analysis would take ALL of his carries into consideration before making a statement like this: A staggering 90% of Trent Richardson’s so-called bad plays were caused by the abysmal run blocking that Indianapolis and Cleveland put in front of him last season. That's straight from the article. You can't make that statement if you didn't watch all of his carries. I'm nitpicking, but it should be modified to acknowledge that you only watched < 40% of his carries.

 

I'm not trying to discredit the piece. I mostly agree with it. But I think it's incomplete, in some respects.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

He was considered small and slow, with low upside as a receiver.

This is incorrect he was considered the best TE in the draft, not small but an average blocker a good intermediate route TE with not enough speed to get deep possible.  And Maybe he might be a little soft. The only reason we took Fleener a head of him was Fleener's height and deep ball ability!

[BOTT]

So Brown's fumble is excused because it was recovered? That's not the way it works.

Not to hate on Richardson, but at least Brown's fumble was caused by a solid hit.

[Dustin]

This is incorrect he was considered the best TE in the draft, not small but an average blocker a good intermediate route TE with not enough speed to get deep possible.  And Maybe he might be a little soft. The only reason we took Fleener a head of him was Fleener's height and deep ball ability!

 

No it's not. Yes he was small for a TE. He was built like a fullback. When you draft a TE you want a guy who's like 6'5" or taller. And his lack of speed is exactly what I meant when I said "low upside as a receiver". You didn't really counter anything I said lol

[Superman]

Not to hate on Richardson, but at least Brown's fumble was caused by a solid hit.

 

I hate fumbles in general. I was just countering the idea that Brown's fumble was okay because it was recovered by the Colts.

[BOTT]

This is incorrect he was considered the best TE in the draft, not small but an average blocker a good intermediate route TE with not enough speed to get deep possible. And Maybe he might be a little soft. The only reason we took Fleener a head of him was Fleener's height and deep ball ability!

There wasn't a consensus on who was the best TE prospect

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

No it's not. Yes he was small for a TE. He was built like a fullback. When you draft a TE you want a guy who's like 6'5" or taller. And his lack of speed is exactly what I meant when I said "low upside as a receiver". You really didn't counter anything I said. 

No your wrong happy to share my my draft report on him which I have years of as I save them. 6'3 265 is not SMALL. He is maybe 1 inch shorter than you would like. Owen Daniels 6'3 Arron Hernandez is 6'1,Dallas Clark 6'3,  Low upside as receiver?, the report says excellent intermediate route runner what we were looking for after Fleener was drafted. Also says nice red zone guy because of wide strong body an route running, athletic ability. And yes he was rated top TE the year he came out.

[Dustin]

No your wrong happy to share my my draft report on him which I have years of as I save them. 6'3 265 is not SMALL.

 

For a TE? Sure it is. The weight is fine, but 6'3" is definitely on the short side for a TE. 

 

Look at the 2013 draft for example, only 7 of the 19 TEs in the draft were 6'3" or shorter and I think only 2-3 of those guys even got drafted. 

 

 

 Low upside as receiver?, the report says excellent intermediate route runner what we were looking for after Fleener was drafted. Also says nice red zone guy because of wide strong body an route running, athletic ability. 

 

The problem we're having is the term "upside" and what you are trying to tell me it means. Nobody said he was going to be a bad recevier or even just an average one, but the "upside" comment was about how his physical limitations were never going to allow him to be a Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Tony G type where he can beat you down the down the field and give you a lot after the catch. 

 

And yes he was rated top TE the year he came out.

 

 

By media people maybe. Anything else is just conjecture. But the fact he went in the 3rd round should tell us what NFL teams thought about him pre-draft. 

[Superman]

There wasn't a consensus on who was the best TE prospect

 

The consensus was that TE was the weakest position in that draft, despite some of the hype Fleener got. James Hanna and Ladarius Green are the only other TEs from that draft that are worthy of mentioning right now.

 

What killed Dwayne Allen is that he ran a terrible 40 and measured an inch shorter than people expected. It was a case of the tape not matching the workouts, for sure. He was a complete TE prospect at Clemson -- great hands, good route running, an ability and willingness to block (though inconsistent), great body control, etc. He won the Mackey award for a reason; dude was a complete TE prospect. He only dropped in the draft because he didn't look as big or as athletic as people thought he would at the Combine.

 

Maybe he wouldn't have gone ahead of Fleener, but he probably would have gone before the third round, if he had run a 4.7 40 and had hit 34 inches on his vertical leap. And that's pretty stupid, when you think about it. Dwayne Allen is a perfect example of how Combine results get a little too important sometimes.

 

By the way, Fleener dropped a little as well. Reports varied at the time, but many people expected him to go in the first round. 

[The Fish]

So Brown's fumble is excused because it was recovered? That's not the way it works. 

I'm not sure what your getting at. Brown was a better back last year. And technically that is how it works. 

[Superman]

I'm not sure what your getting at. Brown was a better back last year. And technically that is how it works. 

 

LOL

 

That's fine, I don't necessarily disagree with that. My disagreement was with the criticism of Richardson's fumble in the KC game, while at the same time praising Donald Brown despite his fumble in the same game. It's not a big deal at all, but let's be fair.

[BOTT]

The consensus was that TE was the weakest position in that draft, despite some of the hype Fleener got. James Hanna and Ladarius Green are the only other TEs from that draft that are worthy of mentioning right now.

 

What killed Dwayne Allen is that he ran a terrible 40 and measured an inch shorter than people expected. It was a case of the tape not matching the workouts, for sure. He was a complete TE prospect at Clemson -- great hands, good route running, an ability and willingness to block (though inconsistent), great body control, etc. He won the Mackey award for a reason; dude was a complete TE prospect. He only dropped in the draft because he didn't look as big or as athletic as people thought he would at the Combine.

 

Maybe he wouldn't have gone ahead of Fleener, but he probably would have gone before the third round, if he had run a 4.7 40 and had hit 34 inches on his vertical leap. And that's pretty stupid, when you think about it. Dwayne Allen is a perfect example of how Combine results get a little too important sometimes.

 

By the way, Fleener dropped a little as well. Reports varied at the time, but many people expected him to go in the first round.

I agree and actually liked Allen better than Fleener, I was just addressing the notion that DA was considered the best TE in the draft. Hell, a few people even had Orson Charles as the #1 TE that yr.

[Superman]

But the fact he went in the 3rd round should tell us what NFL teams thought about him pre-draft. 

 

It's pretty conclusive.

 

Every team passed on him at least twice. But the ONLY reason we drafted Fleener ahead of him is because of Luck... That's weird reasoning to me.

[coltsfanmilyman]

It's pretty conclusive.

 

Every team passed on him at least twice. But the ONLY reason we drafted Fleener ahead of him is because of Luck... That's weird reasoning to me.

I don't think the reasoning is that weird actually.  I have always heard that a QB's best friend is always the TE because of the "safety valve" aspect of the position.  Couple that with the senior season at Stanford and the logic (to me) makes sense.  Big pass catching TE that has played with the QB and they have some chemistry.  I believe you saw a little bit of that as the season wore on, especially after Wayne went down.  Personally I think that both of the TE's we have are so complimentary of each other that it would have been stupid not to get them both.

 

I think Pep's offense is about to explode this season.  Both TE's healthy and a nice compliment of receiving core, plus the 3 headed monster at the rb position.

[ruksak]

So Brown's fumble is excused because it was recovered? That's not the way it works. 

Yeah, I've never found the idea of a recovered fumble any better than a turnover when considering that it doesn't excuse the ball carrier from fumbling in the first place. 

[coltsfanmilyman]

So Brown's fumble is excused because it was recovered? That's not the way it works.

A fumble is a fumble.

[BOTT]

I don't think the reasoning is that weird actually.  I have always heard that a QB's best friend is always the TE because of the "safety valve" aspect of the position.  Couple that with the senior season at Stanford and the logic (to me) makes sense.  Big pass catching TE that has played with the QB and they have some chemistry.  I believe you saw a little bit of that as the season wore on, especially after Wayne went down.  Personally I think that both of the TE's we have are so complimentary of each other that it would have been stupid not to get them both.

 

I think Pep's offense is about to explode this season.  Both TE's healthy and a nice compliment of receiving core, plus the 3 headed monster at the rb position.

It's extremely weird and not something an NFL scout would put any stock in.

[coltsfanmilyman]

It's extremely weird and not something an NFL scout would put any stock in.

Why not? I don't understand why it would be extremely weird? I think unorthodox might be a better term. Regardless of that, I think Grigson is very unconventional and I think of He thinks there is something there he has no problems pulling the trigger. Just my opinion though

[BOTT]

Why not? I don't understand why it would be extremely weird? I think unorthodox might be a better term. Regardless of that, I think Grigson is very unconventional and I think of He thinks there is something there he has no problems pulling the trigger. Just my opinion though

Because "chemistry" at the college level doesn't mean anything. Want the ball? Get open.