All Time Baltimore/Indy Colts Team

[Paulie Gualtieri]

It's like Spicolli said in Fast Times, " If its your history, and my history, doesn't it make it our history ! All joking aside, there are a lot of people that don't know the whole story of what went down during that move. I was in Baltimore at the time, and I am somewhat of a specialist on the subject. I have to correct people when they just throw out Eminent Domain for example, without explaining the details of how it came to that. To be fair, there was plenty of blame to go around from Baltimore officials and Irsay that caused the move. From an Indianapolis viewpoint, fans were just happy to have a team, and NFL football, and I fully understand that. Since you're new here, I didn't like the way Baltimore got the Browns either. Two wrongs don't make a right. That being said, Cleveland, Indy, and Baltimore all have NFL football, so the present and future is good. 

I dont get it. So you come here and complain about our team, and yours did the exact same thing? I hope you are spending as much time on a browns board apologizing as you are here complaining.

[The Old Crow]

I dont get it. So you come here and complain about our team, and yours did the exact same thing? I hope you are spending as much time on a browns board apologizing as you are here complaining.

 

First, it wasn't the exact same thing. There were numerous differences . I'm not complaining about the move 30 years later, but have to many times set people straight who totally blame Baltimore for the move, so it has to be explained in context, when people just put anti-Baltimore sound bites on this forum. I don't like franchises moving unless there are compelling financial reasons to move. Irsay was making money in Baltimore, and in the end, Baltimore had a deal on the table that was as good or better than the Indy deal. Also, the Browns have their logos , uniforms, and records. They don't have to see Jim Brown or Otto Graham in a Baltimore Browns Hall of fame exhibit, or see their Paul Brown colors in Baltimore. Yes, the move was horrible as it was in Baltimore, but at least they were spared that. Then I could have claimed the Cleveland Browns 1964 NFL Championship over the Baltimore Colts ! Wow, that is confusing. 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

First, it wasn't the exact same thing. There were numerous differences . I'm not complaining about the move 30 years later, but have to many times set people straight who totally blame Baltimore for the move, so it has to be explained in context, when people just put anti-Baltimore sound bites on this forum. I don't like franchises moving unless there are compelling financial reasons to move. Irsay was making money in Baltimore, and in the end, Baltimore had a deal on the table that was as good or better than the Indy deal. Also, the Browns have their logos , uniforms, and records. They don't have to see Jim Brown or Otto Graham in a Baltimore Browns Hall of fame exhibit, or see their Paul Brown colors in Baltimore. Yes, the move was horrible as it was in Baltimore, but at least they were spared that. Then I could have claimed the Cleveland Browns 1964 NFL Championship over the Baltimore Colts ! Wow, that is confusing. 

So you're outright denying eminent domain is what youre saying?

[dudeski]

Technically yes, historically no.

you have no idea what it means to be a fan of a team.

[Dustin]

 I'm not complaining about the move 30 years later

 

lol

[The Old Crow]

So you're outright denying eminent domain is what youre saying?

.

What are you talking about ? I'm not denying it, I'm explaining why it came about, and how the Colts left before any Eminent Domain legislation was signed into law. According to then Mayor Shaefer, it never would have happened. They wanted to get a deal done with Irsay. This gun cocked to the head revisionist stuff, was started by lawyer and Irsay apologist ,Mike Chernoff.

[The Old Crow]

you have no idea what it means to be a fan of a team.

Sure. I probably have more Colts memorabilia then you will ever have. I've probably been to more Colts games then you have been, and I haven't been to one in. 30 years, not counting the two Ravens playoff games with the Colts .

[The Old Crow]

lol

I don't care about the move, only Baltimore Colts history. I'm happy we have the Ravens.

[jvan1973]

.

What are you talking about ? I'm not denying it, I'm explaining why it came about, and how the Colts left before any Eminent Domain legislation was signed into law. According to then Mayor Shaefer, it never would have happened. They wanted to get a deal done with Irsay. This gun cocked to the head revisionist stuff, was started by lawyer and Irsay apologist ,Mike Chernoff.

they left before it could be signed, thus the moving in the middle of the night

[The Old Crow]

they left before it could be signed, thus the moving in the middle of the night

Yes, but it may have not have been signed. Shaeffer wanted to get him back to the negotiating table. The Eminent Domain bill only came up because Maryland legislature already heard that Irsay leaving was a done deal. It was a last resort to get him to stay. I think he had decided to leave before any of this Eminent Domain business. This was a Chernoff myth justifying what Irsay wanted to do all along. By the way, I am no advocate of Eminent Domain. I think the whole thing was ill- conceived, but have tried to explain why it came about.

[jvan1973]

Yes, but it may have not have been signed. Shaeffer wanted to get him back to the negotiating table. The Eminent Domain bill only came up because Maryland legislature already heard that Irsay leaving was a done deal. It was a last resort to get him to stay. I think he had decided to leave before any of this Eminent Domain business. This was a Chernoff myth justifying what Irsay wanted to do all along. By the way, I am no advocate of Eminent Domain. I think the whole thing was ill- conceived, but have tried to explain why it came about.

threatening to take a persons possessions is a terrible negotiating tactic. One that your state continues to use.

[The Old Crow]

threatening to take a persons possessions is a terrible negotiating tactic. One that your state continues to use.

I don't think I ever denied Baltimore officials made mistakes. On the other hand, Irsay had an obligation as the owner of a public trust, to act in a professional manner, and put a good product on the field . What he did was look to enrich himself to the maximum , and was looking for more lucrative opportunities and cities almost from the beginning, and turned off fans and politicians with his horrible behavior . For the record, I have more in common politically with Indiana, than I ever will have with Maryland , if you get my drift. I have never been for Eminent Domain, but have tried to explain to you guys the context in which it came about, and my belief, that Irsay had made up his mind before that. Reporters had been dogging both Irsay's and Chenoffs travels to negotiate with other cities, and word was getting back to the legislature that the move was imminent to Phoenix or Indianapolis. That was the context for the legislation, and trust me, Irsay was hard to negotiate with because most of the time if it was past twelve noon, he didn't make much sense.

[The Old Crow]

threatening to take a persons possessions is a terrible negotiating tactic. One that your state continues to use.

Jvan, there is a very good time line that is on line from the Baltimore Sun, that just lays out good old hard facts of what led up to the move. I think most of us are against Eminent Domain. But people on here give Irsay a complete pass. Irsay was bargaining in bad faith, continually playing off Phoenix, Indy, and Baltimore when giving each assurances he would move there, or in the case of Baltimore, stay there. On March 25, 1984 , Schaefer and Frank De Francis met with Irsay with an expanded package that they believed met Irsay's demands. On March 26, 1984 the Maryland Senate studied two bills relating to buying the Colts for local ownership at a fair price , or the Eminent Domain. Here is what Sen. Bromwell who actually sponsored the Eminent Domain bill said," We are sitting on the bills, we don't want to tip the scales. It is a very sensitive position we are in. The way Irsay is, I don't want to be the guy who make him jump off the deep end." These are hardly the comments of a guy who really wanted to do Eminent Domain. On the contrary, they wanted to get a deal done, but every time they met Irsay's demands, like a corporate blackmailer, he came up with new demands.

On March 27, 1984, Irsay presented a new list of demands, after Schaeffer and De Francis had met the original demands. Word was already getting back to Baltimore that Jim Irsay and Chernoff were in Indianapolis under assumed names, and that the move was imminent. In that context, the State Senate passed the Eminent Domain

Bill 38-4, but it had not gone to the Senate, or was signed by the governor. Schaeffer has said that bill would have never been signed while the Colts were in Baltimore. Meanwhile , Shaeffer and DeFrancis were getting approval for Irsay's latest demands which included a 15 million dollar loan at 8 %, guaranteed home attendance at 43,000, and purchasing the training complex. Schaeffer got the go ahead on these, but Irsay did not return calls twice, when they were calling to tell him all his new demands were met. So essentially, Baltimore met all of Irsay's demands, and the Eminent Domain bill would never have been signed , had Irsay picked up the phone, or bargained in good faith. Shortly before 10 PM , the moving vans arrived in Owings Mills with Irsay breaking his last promise that he would call Mayor Schaeffer before any kind of move. Irsay may have been mad at others in Baltimore , but Schaeffer advocated for Irsay until the bitter end, when he threw the Mayor under the bus for the last time. This is the other side of the story you will not here from the revisionist history crowd, but it is dead true.

[jvan1973]

Jvan, there is a very good time line that is on line from the Baltimore Sun, that just lays out good old hard facts of what led up to the move. I think most of us are against Eminent Domain. But people on here give Irsay a complete pass. Irsay was bargaining in bad faith, continually playing off Phoenix, Indy, and Baltimore when giving each assurances he would move there, or in the case of Baltimore, stay there. On March 25, 1984 , Schaefer and Frank De Francis met with Irsay with an expanded package that they believed met Irsay's demands. On March 26, 1984 the Maryland Senate studied two bills relating to buying the Colts for local ownership at a fair price , or the Eminent Domain. Here is what Sen. Bromwell who actually sponsored the Eminent Domain bill said," We are sitting on the bills, we don't want to tip the scales. It is a very sensitive position we are in. The way Irsay is, I don't want to be the guy who make him jump off the deep end." These are hardly the comments of a guy who really wanted to do Eminent Domain. On the contrary, they wanted to get a deal done, but every time they met Irsay's demands, like a corporate blackmailer, he came up with new demands.

On March 27, 1984, Irsay presented a new list of demands, after Schaeffer and De Francis had met the original demands. Word was already getting back to Baltimore that Jim Irsay and Chernoff were in Indianapolis under assumed names, and that the move was imminent. In that context, the State Senate passed the Eminent Domain

Bill 38-4, but it had not gone to the Senate, or was signed by the governor. Schaeffer has said that bill would have never been signed while the Colts were in Baltimore. Meanwhile , Shaeffer and DeFrancis were getting approval for Irsay's latest demands which included a 15 million dollar loan at 8 %, guaranteed home attendance at 43,000, and purchasing the training complex. Schaeffer got the go ahead on these, but Irsay did not return calls twice, when they were calling to tell him all his new demands were met. So essentially, Baltimore met all of Irsay's demands, and the Eminent Domain bill would never have been signed , had Irsay picked up the phone, or bargained in good faith. Shortly before 10 PM , the moving vans arrived in Owings Mills with Irsay breaking his last promise that he would call Mayor Schaeffer before any kind of move. Irsay may have been mad at others in Baltimore , but Schaeffer advocated for Irsay until the bitter end, when he threw the Mayor under the bus for the last time. This is the other side of the story you will not here from the revisionist history crowd, but it is dead true.

the Baltimore sun is also a biased source, to say otherwise is ridiculous. No one outside the discussions or drafting of legislature knows the while story, and even those who were how many are being totally honest, including the Irsay family

[Blueblazes]

Jvan, there is a very good time line that is on line from the Baltimore Sun, that just lays out good old hard facts of what led up to the move. I think most of us are against Eminent Domain. But people on here give Irsay a complete pass. Irsay was bargaining in bad faith, continually playing off Phoenix, Indy, and Baltimore when giving each assurances he would move there, or in the case of Baltimore, stay there. On March 25, 1984 , Schaefer and Frank De Francis met with Irsay with an expanded package that they believed met Irsay's demands. On March 26, 1984 the Maryland Senate studied two bills relating to buying the Colts for local ownership at a fair price , or the Eminent Domain. Here is what Sen. Bromwell who actually sponsored the Eminent Domain bill said," We are sitting on the bills, we don't want to tip the scales. It is a very sensitive position we are in. The way Irsay is, I don't want to be the guy who make him jump off the deep end." These are hardly the comments of a guy who really wanted to do Eminent Domain. On the contrary, they wanted to get a deal done, but every time they met Irsay's demands, like a corporate blackmailer, he came up with new demands.

On March 27, 1984, Irsay presented a new list of demands, after Schaeffer and De Francis had met the original demands. Word was already getting back to Baltimore that Jim Irsay and Chernoff were in Indianapolis under assumed names, and that the move was imminent. In that context, the State Senate passed the Eminent Domain

Bill 38-4, but it had not gone to the Senate, or was signed by the governor. Schaeffer has said that bill would have never been signed while the Colts were in Baltimore. Meanwhile , Shaeffer and DeFrancis were getting approval for Irsay's latest demands which included a 15 million dollar loan at 8 %, guaranteed home attendance at 43,000, and purchasing the training complex. Schaeffer got the go ahead on these, but Irsay did not return calls twice, when they were calling to tell him all his new demands were met. So essentially, Baltimore met all of Irsay's demands, and the Eminent Domain bill would never have been signed , had Irsay picked up the phone, or bargained in good faith. Shortly before 10 PM , the moving vans arrived in Owings Mills with Irsay breaking his last promise that he would call Mayor Schaeffer before any kind of move. Irsay may have been mad at others in Baltimore , but Schaeffer advocated for Irsay until the bitter end, when he threw the Mayor under the bus for the last time. This is the other side of the story you will not here from the revisionist history crowd, but it is dead true.

This is very accurate as I remember that point in time as well. I haven't lived in Baltimore, nor Indy. Yes, attendance was down in Baltimore for Colts games, just as it would be down in Indy if the Colts weren't winning.  I can empathize with Baltimore because I do remember the very unique relationship there was with the team and the people. Also with players and the people. But as hard it is for Baltimore to take, the truth is that the Colts are in Indy now and have been for 30 years. As hard as it is on the fans of a city, the owner can pretty much do what he wants--and yes Indy would be as bitter as Baltimore if the Colts up and moved--at least I hope Indy would be bitter. But it's the way it rolls as hard as it is to accept. But I will always say "Go Colts", no matter where they are.

[The Old Crow]

the Baltimore sun is also a biased source, to say otherwise is ridiculous. No one outside the discussions or drafting of legislature knows the while story, and even those who were how many are being totally honest, including the Irsay family

I think it's a pretty accurate account. We are talking history now, not the emotions of the time. This is pretty much the way it went down. Jim Irsay has confirmed many of these stories, most recently in the 30 for 30 special. All I'm trying to say is it wasn't all bad old Baltimore's fault, and it wasn't all the Irsay's fault. A perfect storm hit , and it happened. The Jamison Helmsley story , I think, chronicaled how things have worked out for both Baltimore and Indy in the long run. I'm just trying to give a more detailed view of how that whole Eminent Domain deal came about. It did not come out of a vacume. Also, you've had people on this forum, most recently a guy with a one sided blog, who never explains the whole story, only the Indy side. I'm saying there is more context to it than that .

Also, where is your outrage about the one sidedness of the Indy Star doing all these current articles on Jim Irsay ? These newspapers are there to get the story right, sell newspapers, and report. They are not always right, but I think enough time has passed since 1984 for historians to correct any inaccuracies.

[jvan1973]

I think it's a pretty accurate account. We are talking history now, not the emotions of the time. This is pretty much the way it went down. Jim Irsay has confirmed many of these stories, most recently in the 30 for 30 special. All I'm trying to say is it wasn't all bad old Baltimore's fault, and it wasn't all the Irsay's fault. A perfect storm hit , and it happened. The Jamison Helmsley story , I think, chronicaled how things have worked out for both Baltimore and Indy in the long run. I'm just trying to give a more detailed view of how that whole Eminent Domain deal came about. It did not come out of a vacume. Also, you've had people on this forum, most recently a guy with a one sided blog, who never explains the whole story, only the Indy side. I'm saying there is more context to it than that .

Also, where is your outrage about the one sidedness of the Indy Star doing all these current articles on Jim Irsay ? These newspapers are there to get the story right, sell newspapers, and report. They are not always right, but I think enough time has passed since 1984 for historians to correct any inaccuracies.

The sports side of the Indy star is a rag, and has been for years

[BrentMc11]

And for a short time we had Ted Hendricks next to Curtis at OLB. Two very demented individuals that no team enjoyed facing.

Nothing worse than a Mad Stork coming at you

 

Well...maybe a Jack Lambert, Jack Tatum, Deacon Jones or Ronnie Lott....

 

Got teeth?

 

[Blueblazes]

Nothing worse than a Mad Stork coming at you

 

Well...maybe a Jack Lambert, Jack Tatum, Deacon Jones or Ronnie Lott....

 

Got teeth?

 

When Ted Hendricks and Mike Curtis were there together, the other OLB was Ray May and Bob Grant--both athletic, fast and  hard hitting. No wonder that was an awesome defense.

[BrentMc11]

When Ted Hendricks and Mike Curtis were there together, the other OLB was Ray May and Bob Grant--both athletic, fast and  hard hitting. No wonder that was an awesome defense.

One name I have not seen is John Dutton....you want to talk about a run stuffer.  One of the first near 300 pd linemen if I recall.

[Coltsince4]

Jvan, there is a very good time line that is on line from the Baltimore Sun, that just lays out good old hard facts of what led up to the move. I think most of us are against Eminent Domain. But people on here give Irsay a complete pass. Irsay was bargaining in bad faith, continually playing off Phoenix, Indy, and Baltimore when giving each assurances he would move there, or in the case of Baltimore, stay there. On March 25, 1984 , Schaefer and Frank De Francis met with Irsay with an expanded package that they believed met Irsay's demands. On March 26, 1984 the Maryland Senate studied two bills relating to buying the Colts for local ownership at a fair price , or the Eminent Domain. Here is what Sen. Bromwell who actually sponsored the Eminent Domain bill said," We are sitting on the bills, we don't want to tip the scales. It is a very sensitive position we are in. The way Irsay is, I don't want to be the guy who make him jump off the deep end." These are hardly the comments of a guy who really wanted to do Eminent Domain. On the contrary, they wanted to get a deal done, but every time they met Irsay's demands, like a corporate blackmailer, he came up with new demands.

On March 27, 1984, Irsay presented a new list of demands, after Schaeffer and De Francis had met the original demands. Word was already getting back to Baltimore that Jim Irsay and Chernoff were in Indianapolis under assumed names, and that the move was imminent. In that context, the State Senate passed the Eminent Domain

Bill 38-4, but it had not gone to the Senate, or was signed by the governor. Schaeffer has said that bill would have never been signed while the Colts were in Baltimore. Meanwhile , Shaeffer and DeFrancis were getting approval for Irsay's latest demands which included a 15 million dollar loan at 8 %, guaranteed home attendance at 43,000, and purchasing the training complex. Schaeffer got the go ahead on these, but Irsay did not return calls twice, when they were calling to tell him all his new demands were met. So essentially, Baltimore met all of Irsay's demands, and the Eminent Domain bill would never have been signed , had Irsay picked up the phone, or bargained in good faith. Shortly before 10 PM , the moving vans arrived in Owings Mills with Irsay breaking his last promise that he would call Mayor Schaeffer before any kind of move. Irsay may have been mad at others in Baltimore , but Schaeffer advocated for Irsay until the bitter end, when he threw the Mayor under the bus for the last time. This is the other side of the story you will not here from the revisionist history crowd, but it is dead true.

I don't give him a pass... I know for sure he was a drunken old soul...Pretty bad when Jim even said his dad didn't even remember him going to Indy now that is being drunk real bad... I guess what they say is true the disease is catching if you get my drift? But hey I really don't have a problem with a lot you say since I became a Colts fan with Unitas in 1958 and would of been ticked if I lived there and they left... I'm just glad I don't have attachments to any of the city's..So I leave all this other stuff to you Indy and Baltimore natives etc. But I do thank the Baltimore Colts and Johnny U for making me a Colts fan at the age of 4 and loving the Colts no matter what city their in are what ever city they ever go toooooo. Oh, and by the way If you want to say the records etc are from the Baltimore Colts I'm cool with that because I was a Baltimore Colts fans!!! But unfortunately I have no Baltimore Colts team to pull for so this is all I've got... I did tell you though I did fall in love with the helmets when I was four... The only way I may not be a Colts fan ever again would be if they change their helmets etc.  I'm guessing??? Coltsince4

[The Old Crow]

The sports side of the Indy star is a rag, and has been for years

 

 

The Sun isn't the best paper either, but this timeline isn't an editorial or opinion, it was what actually happened at the time confirmed by numerous sources in Baltimore at the time, and Jim Irsay. 

 

Here's what you need to understand. Baltimore probably should have built him a stadium sooner, scrapped the blue laws, etc., but Bob Irsay wasn't some kindly, old white haired philantrophist coming in from Chicago. What he did was leverage Baltimore, against four or five other cities to get the best deal. It wasn't bargaining in good faith when Baltimore met Irsay's demands twice, then he upped them like some kind of corporate blackmailer. Was it business, yes, but when you are an NFL owner in a city, you should have some responsibility for the team as a public trust, even though it is privately owned. The public and politicians can be very helpful to you, and I dare say put a lot of money in your pockets. Bob Irsay alienated almost everyone. I think Frank Deford from Sports Illustrated said it best of Bob Irsay, " A man who could screw up professional football in Baltimore, would foul the water at Lourdes, or flatten the beer at Munich. "

[The Old Crow]

I don't give him a pass... I know for sure he was a drunken old soul...Pretty bad when Jim even said his dad didn't even remember him going to Indy now that is being drunk real bad... I guess what they say is true the disease is catching if you get my drift? But hey I really don't have a problem with a lot you say since I became a Colts fan with Unitas in 1958 and would of been ticked if I lived there and they left... I'm just glad I don't have attachments to any of the city's..So I leave all this other stuff to you Indy and Baltimore natives etc. But I do thank the Baltimore Colts and Johnny U for making me a Colts fan at the age of 4 and loving the Colts no matter what city their in are what ever city they ever go toooooo. Oh, and by the way If you want to say the records etc are from the Baltimore Colts I'm cool with that because I was a Baltimore Colts fans!!! But unfortunately I have no Baltimore Colts team to pull for so this is all I've got... I did tell you though I did fall in love with the helmets when I was four... The only way I may not be a Colts fan ever again would be if they change their helmets etc.  I'm guessing??? Coltsince4

 

 

That's cool. When I first came on this forum, I was more gung ho , pro-Baltimore, than I am now. After hearing other forum members views, and how many of them love the Baltimore Colts, I am totally fine with that. I understand how Indy is proud of the current Colts, and how the horseshoe means as much to them, as it does to me, except in a different era. We may differ on how the Baltimore Colts history is sometimes presented, but it's a good history everyone should know.

 

If you lived outside of Baltimore, I could easily see how you could transfer your allegiance from Baltimore to Indianapolis. You like the logos, uniforms, and the Colts. It would have been impossible for me to become an Indy Colts fan after the move, because I'm not a fan of Indiana teams, although I really like the city of Indianapolis, and the state of Indiana. I'm a Baltimore guy, that goes to local games, that follows the local teams. It's that simple.  That being said, I respect the Indy Colts franchise, and I really like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck. Awesome men, and great players. I will never like or respect Robert Irsay, but I don't blame Jim for the move. He was involved in it a bit, but he had to take orders from his father. What else could he do ? 

 

There is another good article on ESPN Go entitled , " Like father, like son, " but it's not what you would think from the title. It's a balanced view of both Bob Irsay and Jim Irsay. What struck me as I read it, especially some of the inside stories about Bob Irsay from some of his friends, is how little people knew about Bob Irsay in either Baltimore or Indianapolis. He was a very private and shadowy figure from 1972-1996. It's an interesting read. 

[The Old Crow]

One name I have not seen is John Dutton....you want to talk about a run stuffer.  One of the first near 300 pd linemen if I recall.

 

That is another sad story , John Dutton.  Irsay wouldn't pay him , and they traded him to the Dallas Cowboys during the 1979 season. He played another eight seasons with the Cowboys . 

[BrentMc11]

That is another sad story , John Dutton.  Irsay wouldn't pay him , and they traded him to the Dallas Cowboys during the 1979 season. He played another eight seasons with the Cowboys . 

Randy White, Dutton and Harvey Martin...WOW!

[The Old Crow]

Randy White, Dutton and Harvey Martin...WOW!

 

Yes, Dutton was a great player. Three time pro-bowler with the Colts, and one of the Sack Pack with Ehrmann, Cook, and Barnes. Too bad these Colt teams were against those 70's Steeler and Raider teams. Randy White was one of my favorite players at the University of Maryland. 

[BrentMc11]

Yes, Dutton was a great player. Three time pro-bowler with the Colts, and one of the Sack Pack with Ehrmann, Cook, and Barnes. Too bad these Colt teams were against those 70's Steeler and Raider teams. Randy White was one of my favorite players at the University of Maryland. 

I actually loved the Raiders when they played football there....my kind of football...Steelers too...but I could not stand them...or the Cowboys

[The Old Crow]

I actually loved the Raiders when they played football there....my kind of football...Steelers too...but I could not stand them...or the Cowboys

 

That 37-31 loss to the Raiders at Memorial Stadium, Ghost to the Post, was a brutal loss. Those 75, 76, and 77 Colt teams were very good led by Bert Jones. I'm not crazy about the Steelers, Raiders, or Cowboys. I still remember after we got blown out by the Steelers in the playoffs, I think 40-14, a guy named Donald Kroner flew his small plane into the upper deck of Memorial Stadium. None one was hurt as the stadium was already clear, and I think Kroner popped out of the plane like a cartoon character that crashes, then dusts himself off like nothing happened. 

[PonyUp]

Jvan, there is a very good time line that is on line from the Baltimore Sun, that just lays out good old hard facts of what led up to the move. I think most of us are against Eminent Domain. But people on here give Irsay a complete pass. Irsay was bargaining in bad faith, continually playing off Phoenix, Indy, and Baltimore when giving each assurances he would move there, or in the case of Baltimore, stay there. On March 25, 1984 , Schaefer and Frank De Francis met with Irsay with an expanded package that they believed met Irsay's demands. On March 26, 1984 the Maryland Senate studied two bills relating to buying the Colts for local ownership at a fair price , or the Eminent Domain. Here is what Sen. Bromwell who actually sponsored the Eminent Domain bill said," We are sitting on the bills, we don't want to tip the scales. It is a very sensitive position we are in. The way Irsay is, I don't want to be the guy who make him jump off the deep end." These are hardly the comments of a guy who really wanted to do Eminent Domain. On the contrary, they wanted to get a deal done, but every time they met Irsay's demands, like a corporate blackmailer, he came up with new demands.

On March 27, 1984, Irsay presented a new list of demands, after Schaeffer and De Francis had met the original demands. Word was already getting back to Baltimore that Jim Irsay and Chernoff were in Indianapolis under assumed names, and that the move was imminent. In that context, the State Senate passed the Eminent Domain

Bill 38-4, but it had not gone to the Senate, or was signed by the governor. Schaeffer has said that bill would have never been signed while the Colts were in Baltimore. Meanwhile , Shaeffer and DeFrancis were getting approval for Irsay's latest demands which included a 15 million dollar loan at 8 %, guaranteed home attendance at 43,000, and purchasing the training complex. Schaeffer got the go ahead on these, but Irsay did not return calls twice, when they were calling to tell him all his new demands were met. So essentially, Baltimore met all of Irsay's demands, and the Eminent Domain bill would never have been signed , had Irsay picked up the phone, or bargained in good faith. Shortly before 10 PM , the moving vans arrived in Owings Mills with Irsay breaking his last promise that he would call Mayor Schaeffer before any kind of move. Irsay may have been mad at others in Baltimore , but Schaeffer advocated for Irsay until the bitter end, when he threw the Mayor under the bus for the last time. This is the other side of the story you will not here from the revisionist history crowd, but it is dead true.

 

So.. They approached Irsay with what they thought was a fair deal, then went and loaded their back pocket with what amounts to theft. They were good guys though.. They didn't throw down their trump card right then and there, they waited to make sure Irsay was going to make the right choice first.

 

Irsay was a horrible owner. But a good definition of negotiating in bad faith is sitting down at the negotiations table with a loaded gun in your waistband. It was like a drunk and an * trying to agree. Sorry the fans in Baltimore paid the price but the blame was entirely mutual and Baltimore Colts fans should remember that.

 

There was no precedent at the time of the Colts moving for leaving behind the legacy of the team. That had never been a consideration until the Ravens came along - And understandably, the city of Baltimore had already been stung and would have been hypocritical to not have done things that way when the Browns moved. The Baltimore Colts history is part of the Indianapolis Colts history. Whether people like you like it or not. That is the only fact that matters. I don't see how that takes from your memories or love of the Baltimore Era. All the old logos and players, they are part of Colts lore - Which is shared with Baltimore in the same way that the Rams lore is shared between LA and St Luis.

[Coltsince4]

Don't know how true this stuff is but found it interesting since were discussing this stuff here...

 

Just think it could of been the Indy Saints....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31YHAYCAt0

[Blueblazes]

Yes, Dutton was a great player. Three time pro-bowler with the Colts, and one of the Sack Pack with Ehrmann, Cook, and Barnes. Too bad these Colt teams were against those 70's Steeler and Raider teams. Randy White was one of my favorite players at the University of Maryland. 

Those 3 straight division championships were awesome. When Bert's arm went bad, the whole team lost it. Neither Bert nor the team were the same again. What a team though. The O line was awesome and that team had their own triplets, Bert Jones, Lydell Mitchell and Roger Carr. If they could have found a MLB and 2 more DBs, oh well.

[Blueblazes]

I don't give him a pass... I know for sure he was a drunken old soul...Pretty bad when Jim even said his dad didn't even remember him going to Indy now that is being drunk real bad... I guess what they say is true the disease is catching if you get my drift? But hey I really don't have a problem with a lot you say since I became a Colts fan with Unitas in 1958 and would of been ticked if I lived there and they left... I'm just glad I don't have attachments to any of the city's..So I leave all this other stuff to you Indy and Baltimore natives etc. But I do thank the Baltimore Colts and Johnny U for making me a Colts fan at the age of 4 and loving the Colts no matter what city their in are what ever city they ever go toooooo. Oh, and by the way If you want to say the records etc are from the Baltimore Colts I'm cool with that because I was a Baltimore Colts fans!!! But unfortunately I have no Baltimore Colts team to pull for so this is all I've got... I did tell you though I did fall in love with the helmets when I was four... The only way I may not be a Colts fan ever again would be if they change their helmets etc.  I'm guessing??? Coltsince4

Wow, much the same story for me. But at age 8 Johnny U. won me over. And yes, no matter what city.

[BrentMc11]

That 37-31 loss to the Raiders at Memorial Stadium, Ghost to the Post, was a brutal loss. Those 75, 76, and 77 Colt teams were very good led by Bert Jones. I'm not crazy about the Steelers, Raiders, or Cowboys. I still remember after we got blown out by the Steelers in the playoffs, I think 40-14, a guy named Donald Kroner flew his small plane into the upper deck of Memorial Stadium. None one was hurt as the stadium was already clear, and I think Kroner popped out of the plane like a cartoon character that crashes, then dusts himself off like nothing happened. 

I loved that Colts team as much as any!  I was learning football well at that point....loved Bert and the boys.. I loved another player not mentioned here:  Lydell Mitchell.

[The Old Crow]

So.. They approached Irsay with what they thought was a fair deal, then went and loaded their back pocket with what amounts to theft. They were good guys though.. They didn't throw down their trump card right then and there, they waited to make sure Irsay was going to make the right choice first.

 

Irsay was a horrible owner. But a good definition of negotiating in bad faith is sitting down at the negotiations table with a loaded gun in your waistband. It was like a drunk and an * trying to agree. Sorry the fans in Baltimore paid the price but the blame was entirely mutual and Baltimore Colts fans should remember that.

 

There was no precedent at the time of the Colts moving for leaving behind the legacy of the team. That had never been a consideration until the Ravens came along - And understandably, the city of Baltimore had already been stung and would have been hypocritical to not have done things that way when the Browns moved. The Baltimore Colts history is part of the Indianapolis Colts history. Whether people like you like it or not. That is the only fact that matters. I don't see how that takes from your memories or love of the Baltimore Era. All the old logos and players, they are part of Colts lore - Which is shared with Baltimore in the same way that the Rams lore is shared between LA and St Luis.

I think Bob Irsay had the ultimate gun on his back pocket with the threat to move to four or five cities . As I've already said, I'm not dismissing Baltimore officials from stupidity. Your comment about a drunk and a * hole , is right on track. I'm fine with you guys liking the Colts. It's all good.

[The Old Crow]

I loved that Colts team as much as any!  I was learning football well at that point....loved Bert and the boys.. I loved another player not mentioned here:  Lydell Mitchell.

Those 70's teams were fun. 75, 76, and 77 were the obvious highlights of the Irsay years. It's a shame those teams ,and group of players, couldn't have been together longer, because they had extremely good teams. Hey diddle, diddle, Lydell up the middle. That was the mantra of Teddy Football 's running game.

[The Old Crow]

Those 3 straight division championships were awesome. When Bert's arm went bad, the whole team lost it. Neither Bert nor the team were the same again. What a team though. The O line was awesome and that team had their own triplets, Bert Jones, Lydell Mitchell and Roger Carr. If they could have found a MLB and 2 more DBs, oh well.

It was a team close to winning a Super Bowl , but just couldn't get over the hump. I remember when we won the fog bowl in Memorial Stadium against Miami to win the division. All seemed right with the world then.

[Blueblazes]

It was a team close to winning a Super Bowl , but just couldn't get over the hump. I remember when we won the fog bowl in Memorial Stadium against Miami to win the division. All seemed right with the world then.

The offense was set to win it. The defense had the Sack Pack up front and Stan White at one OLB (interception record for OLB-18 interceptions in the 3 seasons -'75-77!). They only needed an MLB (had to rely on knee injured Jim Cheyunski), and needed one more cover CB. Oh well. Awesome years. Go Colts.

[The Old Crow]

The offense was set to win it. The defense had the Sack Pack up front and Stan White at one OLB (interception record for OLB-18 interceptions in the 3 seasons -'75-77!). They only needed an MLB (had to rely on knee injured Jim Cheyunski), and needed one more cover CB. Oh well. Awesome years. Go Colts.

Stan White still works on the radio on WBAL in Baltimore. Bruce Laird is on the Mid Atlantic Sports Report with Tom Davis. Good guys with great stories from that era. I used to work in a restaurant in Parkville, MD on the early 1980's. In the nightclub below, they used to have the Corral of the Colts radio show on WCBM radio live. I remember getting Artie Donovan a few beers, and I remember meeting Frank Kush and Mike Pagel. I even met Bob Irsay once at Memorial Stadium in passing ! I really liked those old 70's teams, and I even liked the early 80's teams , although they stunk. I still remember the last Baltimore Colts game ever at Memorial Stadium against the Oilers, my friend and I went up to the top of the stadium looked out on the street , and watched some guy who had stolen an NBC Sports banner , getting tackled by police as he ran down the street after running out of the stadium. It was December 18, 1983, and I was happy to finish the season 7-9 , and close out the season with a 20-10 win over the Oilers. I hoped we were on the upswing again, and was excited for the 1984 season. Little did I know, the moving vans were coming, and I wouldn't be going to another NFL game until 1996, a long twelve year wait.

[Blueblazes]

Stan White still works on the radio on WBAL in Baltimore. Bruce Laird is on the Mid Atlantic Sports Report with Tom Davis. Good guys with great stories from that era. I used to work in a restaurant in Parkville, MD on the early 1980's. In the nightclub below, they used to have the Corral of the Colts radio show on WCBM radio live. I remember getting Artie Donovan a few beers, and I remember meeting Frank Kush and Mike Pagel. I even met Bob Irsay once at Memorial Stadium in passing ! I really liked those old 70's teams, and I even liked the early 80's teams , although they stunk. I still remember the last Baltimore Colts game ever at Memorial Stadium against the Oilers, my friend and I went up to the top of the stadium looked out on the street , and watched some guy who had stolen an NBC Sports banner , getting tackled by police as he ran down the street after running out of the stadium. It was December 18, 1983, and I was happy to finish the season 7-9 , and close out the season with a 20-10 win over the Oilers. I hoped we were on the upswing again, and was excited for the 1984 season. Little did I know, the moving vans were coming, and I wouldn't be going to another NFL game until 1996, a long twelve year wait.

Wow, that's awesome about seeing those guys and the last game at Memorial. Laird's pick 6 vs. the Raiders in the "Ghost to the Post" OT game still is sweet. Stan White was a sharp guy and called the defensive signals. Even before these guys, I can still hear Chuck Thompson calling a game from the '60s on TV (CBS usually used local radio guys back then to do regional telecasts). That's great that White and Laird are still in Baltimore. Glad the city has the Ravens to pull for also.

[The Old Crow]

Wow, that's awesome about seeing those guys and the last game at Memorial. Laird's pick 6 vs. the Raiders in the "Ghost to the Post" OT game still is sweet. Stan White was a sharp guy and called the defensive signals. Even before these guys, I can still hear Chuck Thompson calling a game from the '60s on TV (CBS usually used local radio guys back then to do regional telecasts). That's great that White and Laird are still in Baltimore. Glad the city has the Ravens to pull for also.

 

Both of those guys Laird and White are on Raven's shows on MASN and WBAL respectively. You are dead right about Chuck Thompson. I grew up listening to him on a transister radio on WBAL in Baltimore. You are right , he did the local Colts games, and the regional games in those days. He also did the Orioles games with Bill O'Donnell. After wins, you were treated to his famous saying, ' Ain't the beer cold," which to me invoked memories of Natty Boh beer, that has made a comeback today. The late 60's and early 70's were very good times in Baltimore, with the Orioles in four World Series winning two, and the Colts in two Super Bowls, winning one. We even had great pro basketball then with the Baltimore Bullets, who were a great team, and had epic battles with the New York Knicks. Great memories.