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Colts High on Khaled Holmes


Bluefire4
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It's so self-serving. Nothing but lip service. We didn't hear a peep about Holmes from Pagano all last year, now he's raving about the guy. I also tend to not put much stock in anything Pagano says. He overhypes everybody we draft, sign and trade for initially. My guess is, he's probably just playing good solider and speaking positive of Holmes because Grigson didn't make an aggressive push to upgrade the center position through free agency

Well, I'm going to reserve my opinion until I actually see him on the field. This could be Pagano hype yes. But on the other side of it there was really no reason for him to be hyping him last season. What I mean is, the Center position isn't a skill position and it isn't talked about a lot so I doubt that Holmes came up in conversation during press conferences etc. After I sat back a bit and thought things through after our initial phase of FA I realized that the last 2 years I've come to expect that we're going to spend lots of $ on Free Agents and I was a bit concerned about not going after a Center. But the reality is, we still have the draft. Holmes was a highly touted prospect at one time. They brought in another vet to compete for the job. It'll work itself out. The team has options.

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Of course he's going to believe in his players and have full confidence that they can get the job done. I think Holmes is probably capable of being the starting center this year and may just be a pretty darn good one. For some reason, and I'm guilty of this as well, the majority (or it seems) wants to sign FA to fill voids when we may just have what we need already on the roster. Holmes and Howell as prime examples

I like Howell. I liked him when I saw him last year. Plus, we have the draft yet. I fully expect us to draft a FS who will compete with Howell and provide depth.

 

Here's my take on Howell from the limited time I saw him last season. He had fresh legs, young legs. Looked to me like he moved quite a bit better than both Bethea and Landry in coverage. He also has a pop when he tackles. Sometimes all a guy needs is some experience and the chance to show what he can do and be given the chance to improve. I have a feeling we're gonna see what Howell can do.

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ok ok ok.... so you think that Pagano knows Holmes is not very good but is just saying he is because we didnt sign someone better?????

maybe... just maybe... we didn't sign another C (besides Costa) because we actually think Holmes IS good.

What I'm saying is, Pagano is supporting his player and GM after it was clear a push for a proven center wasn't going to happen this free agency. Lets not pretend Grigson wasn't asking around about Alex Mack. The reports were out. They were at least willing to bring in a veteran pro bowl center if it was a realistic option. I think Holmes may have been his backup plan, but do I think it was his main plan all along to start a center who has only played 12 snaps as a pro (none at center)? Heck no.

I think Holmes can be a quality starter but to act like there's no question marks surrounding him, and that Pagano isn't giving a certain degree of lip service by talking him up right now, is silly.

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Since TRich is a bruising runner who is very hard to bring down, that "ism" is actually very accurate....

 

however, its incomplete.  He meant to say that he is "A slow as shxx rolling ball of butcher knives". :D

"butter knives."

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What I'm saying is, Pagano is supporting his player and GM after it was clear a push for a proven center wasn't going to happen this free agency. Lets not pretend Grigson wasn't asking around about Alex Mack. The reports were out. They were at least willing to bring in a veteran pro bowl center if it was a realistic option. I think Holmes may have been his backup plan, but do I think it was his main plan all along to start a center who has only played 12 snaps as a pro (none at center)? Heck no.

I think Holmes can be a quality starter but to act like there's no question marks surrounding him, and that Pagano isn't giving a certain degree of lip service by talking him up right now, is silly.

OR maybe we never were going after Mack or any other C and we knew Holmes was the guy all along.

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What I'm saying is, Pagano is supporting his player and GM after it was clear a push for a proven center wasn't going to happen this free agency. Lets not pretend Grigson wasn't asking around about Alex Mack. The reports were out. They were at least willing to bring in a veteran pro bowl center if it was a realistic option. I think Holmes may have been his backup plan, but do I think it was his main plan all along to start a center who has only played 12 snaps as a pro (none at center)? Heck no.

I think Holmes can be a quality starter but to act like there's no question marks surrounding him, and that Pagano isn't giving a certain degree of lip service by talking him up right now, is silly.

I don't think that the Colts inquiring into Mack means Holmes was intended to be the backup plan heading into this offseason.  I jsut think its merely an acknowledgment that there are better centers.  Maybe that's whaty ou are saying.  But there aren't many centers in teh NFL as good as Mack, if any.  So if we could have gotten him on the cheap, of course they'd bring him in.  It's all about economic efficiency.  It seems to me that Grigs would have paid for A production if he could have gotten him at a price that wasn't top 5 money for centers.  But since that is what Mack is likely to command (probably he'd be the highest paid), then we are okay with settling for what we think might be B- production for a 3rd round rookie wage pay.  Of course, that's assuming Holmes will be that productive.  Could be worse, could be better, who knows at this point?

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If you choose to ignore multiple reports saying contrary, sure. Maybe

 

i don't choose to ignore the rumors.  i just don't treat them as fact.  especially when our head coach states otherwise.   he may just being saying the right things, or holmes has been working hard and shows signs of being our franchise C.  i just am one to not say I "know" things that I "think".

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What the fun do you expect him to say, "Khaled Holmes is a piece of %. I can't believe Grigson screwed me over by not signing a proven center!"?

Part of a coaches job is to blow smoke up the medias butt, especially when he's talking about his players. Get used to it.

 

Yeah I agree. . . that isn't to say that Holmes isn't any good.  But whenever you are looking at a giant question mark in the starting lineup the coaching staff always seems to have high praise for the new guy.

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Yeah I agree. . . that isn't to say that Holmes isn't any good.  But whenever you are looking at a giant question mark in the starting lineup the coaching staff always seems to have high praise for the new guy.

 

 

Thank you. That's the only point I tried to make

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Yeah I agree. . . that isn't to say that Holmes isn't any good.  But whenever you are looking at a giant question mark in the starting lineup the coaching staff always seems to have high praise for the new guy.

Maybe they drafted him because they think he's got potential and is going to be a good player that will be Andrew's wing man for the next decade? There is possiblilty that he will be good you know. I'm not sure, but I  think thats why teams draft players.

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Maybe they drafted him because they think he's got potential and is going to be a good player that will be Andrew's wing man for the next decade? There is possiblilty that he will be good you know. I'm not sure, but I  think thats why teams draft players.

 

Maybe but for right now he's a giant question mark, and I've seen it before both in the pros and in college.  Whenever you have a starting spot that's going to a guy that's barely played or never played before the coaches always have a huge amount of praise and talk about them like they are gonna be a star player next year.

 

And maybe sometimes they are.  Most of the time they are not.  

 

So I would take the praise of Holmes with a grain of salt.  

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Thank you. That's the only point I tried to make

Yes, and you are right about Pags. I'd love to play for the guy or work for him, because he does build up players in coachspeak. (Btw, I'm still waiting for that "bowling ball of butcher knives" to show up, too.)

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I don't think that the Colts inquiring into Mack means Holmes was intended to be the backup plan heading into this offseason.  I jsut think its merely an acknowledgment that there are better centers.  Maybe that's whaty ou are saying.  But there aren't many centers in teh NFL as good as Mack, if any.  So if we could have gotten him on the cheap, of course they'd bring him in.  It's all about economic efficiency.  It seems to me that Grigs would have paid for A production if he could have gotten him at a price that wasn't top 5 money for centers.  But since that is what Mack is likely to command (probably he'd be the highest paid), then we are okay with settling for what we think might be B- production for a 3rd round rookie wage pay.  Of course, that's assuming Holmes will be that productive.  Could be worse, could be better, who knows at this point?

 

I think Grigs decided to wait until next season.  I'm sure he would have paid nearly 8.5 million a year.  Problem is, I think Cleveland matches that easily and Mack is off the market. I feel Macks agent wasn't convincing in his argument he could create a contract favorable to the Colts that would aslo pass NFL inspection.  If Grigson waits, then Mack becomes a UFA next off season.  Cleveland could place the non-exclusive franchise him, and no one makes an offer once more.  However, that would likely cost Cleveland 12 million.  That would be paying Mack 11 million a year for two years.  I doubt the Browns do this.

 

If Holmes/Costa prove to be good enough, Grigson won't approach him.  If it still proves to be a weak spot, Grigson will be on better footing to offer a fair long term  contract, not 12 mil a year as some were wanting us to do.

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I think Grigs decided to wait until next season.  I'm sure he would have paid nearly 8.5 million a year.  Problem is, I think Cleveland matches that easily and Mack is off the market. I feel Macks agent wasn't convincing in his argument he could create a contract favorable to the Colts that would aslo pass NFL inspection.  If Grigson waits, then Mack becomes a UFA next off season.  Cleveland could place the non-exclusive franchise him, and no one makes an offer once more.  However, that would likely cost Cleveland 12 million.  That would be paying Mack 11 million a year for two years.  I doubt the Browns do this.

 

If Holmes/Costa prove to be good enough, Grigson won't approach him.  If it still proves to be a weak spot, Grigson will be on better footing to offer a fair long term  contract, not 12 mil a year as some were wanting us to do.

That's a pretty fair assessment, actually.  I guess it didn't matter what we offered.  It was either too expensive for us to have seriously considered (or would regret if Cleveland didn't match) or it would have been so cheap that Cleveland would have matched.

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What I'm saying is, Pagano is supporting his player and GM after it was clear a push for a proven center wasn't going to happen this free agency. Lets not pretend Grigson wasn't asking around about Alex Mack. The reports were out. They were at least willing to bring in a veteran pro bowl center if it was a realistic option. I think Holmes may have been his backup plan, but do I think it was his main plan all along to start a center who has only played 12 snaps as a pro (none at center)? Heck no.

I think Holmes can be a quality starter but to act like there's no question marks surrounding him, and that Pagano isn't giving a certain degree of lip service by talking him up right now, is silly.

 

^^Agree^^  I am amazed at how many take what Pagano and Grigson tell the media at face value.  If they have as much confidence in Holmes being "the man" as they are acting like, than they don't go out and make serious inquiries about Alex Mack and Joe Hawley.  I am still hoping they bring in someone like Goodwin on a 1 year deal just in case Homes falls on his face. I don't want another year of bad O Line play because "they hope" their guys can step up.

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Maybe but for right now he's a giant question mark, and I've seen it before both in the pros and in college.  Whenever you have a starting spot that's going to a guy that's barely played or never played before the coaches always have a huge amount of praise and talk about them like they are gonna be a star player next year.

 

And maybe sometimes they are.  Most of the time they are not.  

 

So I would take the praise of Holmes with a grain of salt.  

You do know that he played through injury his Senior year was one of the 6 finalists for the Riminton award despite playing with an injury.

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is that what the police found in irsay's car?

My first thought when seeing this thread was I hope no team people were on the plane with Justin Bieber. Maybe this is why no word on Mack... because there is no need. At least one can hope.

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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

"This league, unfortunately, when a guy gets hurt in training camp he gets shelved," Grigson said. "There was a lot of optimism about him in minicamp, his level of intelligence. He's unique, he's 318 pounds. He's got guard versatility even though I think he's a center, but he's got good arm length. At center, you have to have that ... The guy knows how to play football."

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run.

"That's a tough thing to do. When you're losing or if you've lost five games in a row and you're not going to the playoffs, then you can make those decisions." - quotes from ESPN.com

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It's so self-serving. Nothing but lip service. We didn't hear a peep about Holmes from Pagano all last year, now he's raving about the guy. I also tend to not put much stock in anything Pagano says. He overhypes everybody we draft, sign and trade for initially. My guess is, he's probably just playing good solider and speaking positive of Holmes because Grigson didn't make an aggressive push to upgrade the center position through free agency

Yep, absolutely correct.

Pagano hypes everything and you cannot believe much of what he says anymore.

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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

"This league, unfortunately, when a guy gets hurt in training camp he gets shelved," Grigson said. "There was a lot of optimism about him in minicamp, his level of intelligence. He's unique, he's 318 pounds. He's got guard versatility even though I think he's a center, but he's got good arm length. At center, you have to have that ... The guy knows how to play football."

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run.

"That's a tough thing to do. When you're losing or if you've lost five games in a row and you're not going to the playoffs, then you can make those decisions." - quotes from ESPN.com

Those were my thoughts exactly. Regardless if Holmes was better last year there's more to it than that. Glad we didn't throw him in there. Wish Thorton didn't play as much cause it showed that he wore down and started making mistakes. On the flip side he was thrown into the fire and learned a lot.

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If Holmes doesn't pan out, we could always move Thomas to center, and have Reitz or Nixon at Guard, but I'm starting to think our line might be alright. Pagano and crew must really like what they saw with Holmes. Maybe he can beef up and be a pleasant surprise next season. We all wanted a proven center and I was upset we didn't land one, but we would have signed one if they didn't really like Holmes.

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Believe this Andrew Luck was HIT 25 more times than any other Quarterback in 2013

 His rookie year he was hit 22 times more than any other Quarterback

For two years we've heard from Grigson/Pagano protect Luck priority number one, NOT, I'll believe it when I see it.

All the Colts interior Olinemen are GREAT, they just can't block worth a damn.

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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

"This league, unfortunately, when a guy gets hurt in training camp he gets shelved," Grigson said. "There was a lot of optimism about him in minicamp, his level of intelligence. He's unique, he's 318 pounds. He's got guard versatility even though I think he's a center, but he's got good arm length. At center, you have to have that ... The guy knows how to play football."

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run.

"That's a tough thing to do. When you're losing or if you've lost five games in a row and you're not going to the playoffs, then you can make those decisions." - quotes from ESPN.com

"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

 

Thats a serious cause for concern in my opinion. It sounds like he is saying that Costa is better on tape then EDS since Grigson watched the tape

 

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run."

 

 

Meh, Sounds like a nice idea but I disagree

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What I'm saying is, Pagano is supporting his player and GM after it was clear a push for a proven center wasn't going to happen this free agency. Lets not pretend Grigson wasn't asking around about Alex Mack. The reports were out. They were at least willing to bring in a veteran pro bowl center if it was a realistic option. I think Holmes may have been his backup plan, but do I think it was his main plan all along to start a center who has only played 12 snaps as a pro (none at center)? Heck no.

I think Holmes can be a quality starter but to act like there's no question marks surrounding him, and that Pagano isn't giving a certain degree of lip service by talking him up right now, is silly.

 

 There was Never a moment Grigson seriously thought he would be signing Mack.

 He knows the drill and you clearly have no clue.

 Gee, and so many here thought UDFA Rookie Shipley played fine/better than Satele. How could one Possibly think a 4th round center could be a Good starter in his 2nd year. lmao

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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

 

Thats a serious cause for concern in my opinion. It sounds like he is saying that Costa is better on tape then EDS since Grigson watched the tape

 

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run."

 

 

Meh, Sounds like a nice idea but I disagree

 

 

Costa signed for less than Rietz. He can play 2 positions and is a good sign even if he doesn't start at C. EDS is a different player and price. IMO you can't take what Grigson says to mean he liked Costa better than EDS. I think he felt one was a good sign and the other wasn't. Simple as that.....

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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

Thats a serious cause for concern in my opinion. It sounds like he is saying that Costa is better on tape then EDS since Grigson watched the tape

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run."

Meh, Sounds like a nice idea but I disagree

Gavin, in the first quote, I suspect he is saying they looked at everyone available, and the cost to value ration didn't beat out what they think they have on the bench already. I think Costa was a value pick to be competition and security blanket, not "better than EDS".
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"We looked at every center, we looked at all the guards, in free agency" Grigson said. "We didn't like anybody. It's based off our facts, which is the tape."

 

Thats a serious cause for concern in my opinion. It sounds like he is saying that Costa is better on tape then EDS since Grigson watched the tape

 

"You have a trust level," Grigson said. "And even if you have a player you think doesn't have as high of ceiling as the guy that's sitting on bench, you have a guy who has been through some wars. Experience plays a major factor and it makes everyone comfortable when you have someone who has been there done that than throwing a guy to the wolves when you're in the middle of a run."

 

 

Meh, Sounds like a nice idea but I disagree

 

 lmao! Why would he want to pay EDS the $3.5M he got just to sit on the bench. He, like GB, knows the guy isn`t that good as a starter, and he is confident Holmes has a higher ceiling than Satele and EDS.

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Gavin, in the first quote, I suspect he is saying they looked at everyone available, and the cost to value ration didn't beat out what they think they have on the bench already. I think Costa was a value pick to be competition and security blanket, not "better than EDS".

Thats kinda what I was thinking but thats not what he said though, I took what he said witht hat at face value in that instance

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  lmao! Why would he want to pay EDS the $3.5M he got just to sit on the bench. He, like GB, knows the guy isn`t that good as a starter, and he is confident Holmes has a higher ceiling than Satele and EDS.

EDS wouldn't be sitting on the bench :funny:  I dont know if thats you being uninformed or delusional,

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Thats kinda what I was thinking but thats not what he said though, I took what he said witht hat at face value in that instance

I get your point, of course, but "we didn't like anybody... based on facts..." can also be read at face value to mean the facts are EDS (or Mack, or whoever) didn't provide the right value, and Grigs et al didn't like them for that reason... Just sayin'.
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I get your point, of course, but "we didn't like anybody... based on facts..." can also be read at face value to mean the facts are EDS (or Mack, or whoever) didn't provide the right value, and Grigs et al didn't like them for that reason... Just sayin'.

:scratch: Maybe, I dunno but when he said that it threw me through a loop, Though EDS is only making 3.5 mill and some change a year on average over 4 years, Costa is averaging $1,375,000 per year, Thats roughly 2 mill dollars more....Not much in terms of NFL money. I think it had to do with Grigson believing Holmes is ready and didn't want to bring EDS in because it would be expected EDS would start.

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:scratch: Maybe, I dunno but when he said that it threw me through a loop, Though EDS is only making 3.5 mill and some change a year on average over 4 years, Costa is averaging $1,375,000 per year, Thats roughly 2 mill dollars more....Not much in terms of NFL money. I think it had to do with Grigson believing Holmes is ready and didn't want to bring EDS in because it would be expected EDS would start.

I should prolly just drop it, because I've had a couple cocktails to smooth out the edges after a rough day at the office, and am fighting impatience (not with you) and an urge to be too particular...

...but wouldn't your last statement be part of the value equation I described? If EDS would cost more, and create confusion over who should start, would that not lessen his value to the club?

OK... now accept my apology for my excessive parsing. Please.

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I should prolly just drop it, because I've had a couple cocktails to smooth out the edges after a rough day at the office, and am fighting impatience (not with you) and an urge to be too particular...

...but wouldn't your last statement be part of the value equation I described? If EDS would cost more, and create confusion over who should start, would that not lessen his value to the club?

OK... now accept my apology for my excessive parsing. Please.

Accepted ;)  and EDS would start ...Though Holmes has tremendous upside if he can channel it. Risk vs reward I guess, if he plays good or even great then its a huge benefit. If he blows then Im not sure even another 11-5 season and a playoff appearance will be enough for Grigson to avoid scrutiny

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