Grigson Confrence call

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I can live with the center statement.  It is what it is.

 

It concerns me about Thomas.  We better draft another decent guard.  Actually, if we use our first three picks on O linemen, I wouldn't be upset.

Agree the Thomas statement is concerning & although I like Reitz especially as a pass blocker he is injury pro too. We will draft a guard I believe. I also think safety, an CB, maybe a pass rusher?

[ProblChld32]

Interesting very interesting. Nice to know that Costa and Holmes will battle it out, my money is on Holmes.

[Thewholefnshow28]

Right. And playing tackle or center is more difficult than playing guard, given the pass rushers tackles face and the pre-snap responsibilities centers have. So after all that parsing I just did, I don't find it surprising that the staff didn't anticipate playing Holmes at center at all last year. I just don't think Grigson's comments were meant the way that many people have taken them. Like you said, blanket policies probably don't exist.

 

But whatever. It's good that we drafted Holmes last year and then redshirted him. I hope beyond hope that he can play well for us this season. I'm not worried about Grigson's job, I just think having good center play is the key to our offense taking the next step.

 

Thornton's and Holmes's play next year will be the key to our offensive success.  Luck was running for his life and as much as I am not a fan of Trent a lot of his issues was due to the fact that the inside of the line was blown up consistently. We have to have more consistent play from the interior of the offensive line.  I hope after sitting for a year and watching and Thornton being baptized by fire that those two will be ready, but I worry having such young guys in key spots.  If they can play well it will be great to have some young talent on cheap contracts.  If they fail though Grigs will take a lot of heat and he will deserve it.

 

All we can do now is hope that they are ready week 1.  

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Yeah Bethea was one of the few late round gems that Polian got right...

Bethea was crucial in the Supoerbowl run, one of my favorite Colts defensive plays to this day is his INT in the endzone of the Ravens playoff FG extravaganza game...

Pollian had alot of late picks an free agent pickups that where good. Off the top of my head Garcon, Nick Harper, Brackett & Mathis come to mind! There is certainly a group here that loves hating on Pollian for getting in the playoffs repeatedly year after year!

[BlueCollarColts]

So our line will most likely be:

 

Costanzo/Thomas/Holmes/Thornton/Cherilus

[Buck Showalter]

Grigson is lying!!!!! Pagano was at USC talking to marcus Martin C. Our o line coached worked out Nevada's bitonio for guard. We wouldn't have done that if he's satisfied w/ holmes. last year he said he prefers drafting corners and signing o line in free agency. He did the exact opposite. He's doing what good GM's do. Keep the media in the dark.

& you just blew his cover!!!

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I'm not as concerned about that.  

 

Mathis will be there, Jones will provide a pass rush, Redding is probably going to be on the opposite side of him on passing downs (as opposed to Francois who is a run stopper but can't rush the passer.) and expect Werner to be improved.

 

We are far from having an elite corps of pass rushers but adding Jones plus Werner improving should make our pass rush quite a bit better then where we where last year.

 

My biggest concern is O-line.  We're looking at an unknown at center (Either Costas or Holmes) and a guard that did pretty poorly last year but may improve (Thornton)  

 

We're also starting an unknown at FS.

Still have Reitz, Austin, & Nixon!

[Buck Showalter]

Pollian had alot of late picks an free agent pickups that where good. Off the top of my head Garcon, Nick Harper, Brackett & Mathis come to mind! There is certainly a group here that loves hating on Pollian for getting in the playoffs repeatedly year after year!

Sure Mathis, & Bethea, were pro-bowlers, & the other guys were serviceable but not all-stars. Polian had a reputation for finding big time talent in late rounds & as the seasons went along that reputation just didn't hold up. Hey I liked Brackett & think he is a super great guy & he was great from a leadership standpoint, especially coming in as an UDFA, & he is another "good" find from Polian, but he wasn't a perennial pro-bowler either...

 

My point is if you look at rosters around the league all teams have those guys, who out-perform their draft position.

Polian's reputation heavily benifited from being able to draft Peyton, and that is the main reason for the continued playoff appearances. I will say Polian got the Peyton over Leaf pick & the Edge over Ricky Wlliams pick right , but other than that he drafted about as well as other GM's...

 

For a long time there was a "Trust in Polian" sentiment in Colts fandom, especially around draft time...

and as the years went along his draft scheme seemed to almost purposefully become more and more unorthodox, seemingly on purpose...

 

I held a grudge on Polian for a long time after the New York game. Was glad he was the Colts GM during the Peyton era, but think he was kept on the job 3-4 years too long...

[dgambill]

Yeah Bethea was one of the few late round gems that Polian got right...

Bethea was crucial in the Supoerbowl run, one of my favorite Colts defensive plays to this day is his INT in the endzone of the Ravens playoff FG extravaganza game...

We've hit some late rounders down through the years. One ROBERT MATHIS being the biggest...but thats a mistake to think he never hit late...first 2 rds you NEED to hit...after that its a big plus to hit on someone. Everyone's idea of late rd picks is different but if I go by 4th and later here is his list:

 

Ryan Diem (4th rd)

David Thorton (4th rd)

ROBERT MATHIS (5th rd)

Cato June (6th rd)

Jake Scott (5th rd)

ANTOINE BETHEA (6th rd)

Jacob Tamme (4th rd)

PIERRE GARCON (6th rd)

Austin Collie (4th rd)

Pat Mcafee (7th rd)

 

Those are all 4th rd and later that isn't too bad if you ask me. That said you really need to hit no those first and second rounders...and late he didn't...but that's where the money is at...anything 4th and later is just icing on the cake if you hit there...and we got some good contributers...even guys like Clint Sessions who I didn't list.

[Bravo]

I know we also need at least one safety. But I'm for selling out for O linemen. Defenses play better when the offense hold the field, and gives them a lead. Our D isn't going to be Seattle good, it doesn't have to be if we have a balanced offense that controls the field.

Yeah safety of course! Def pick up a safety with our 2nd round pick or see if Grigson pulls anymore magic on draft day! But I wouldn't mind seeing around 3 of our picks for O-Line depth. Then maybe a S, CB, LB, for defense.. But offensive wise I feel like the only need is O-Line

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

We've hit some late rounders down through the years. One ROBERT MATHIS being the biggest...but thats a mistake to think he never hit late...first 2 rds you NEED to hit...after that its a big plus to hit on someone. Everyone's idea of late rd picks is different but if I go by 4th and later here is his list:

 

Ryan Diem (4th rd)

David Thorton (4th rd)

ROBERT MATHIS (5th rd)

Cato June (6th rd)

Jake Scott (5th rd)

ANTOINE BETHEA (6th rd)

Jacob Tamme (4th rd)

PIERRE GARCON (6th rd)

Austin Collie (4th rd)

Pat Mcafee (7th rd)

 

Those are all 4th rd and later that isn't too bad if you ask me. That said you really need to hit no those first and second rounders...and late he didn't...but that's where the money is at...anything 4th and later is just icing on the cake if you hit there...and we got some good contributers...even guys like Clint Sessions who I didn't list.

Agree sometimes I think he was better from the 4th down, and free agency, as opposed to 2 thru the 3rd?

[Buck Showalter]

We've hit some late rounders down through the years. One ROBERT MATHIS being the biggest...but thats a mistake to think he never hit late...first 2 rds you NEED to hit...after that its a big plus to hit on someone. Everyone's idea of late rd picks is different but if I go by 4th and later here is his list:

 

Ryan Diem (4th rd)

David Thorton (4th rd)

ROBERT MATHIS (5th rd)

Cato June (6th rd)

Jake Scott (5th rd)

ANTOINE BETHEA (6th rd)

Jacob Tamme (4th rd)

PIERRE GARCON (6th rd)

Austin Collie (4th rd)

Pat Mcafee (7th rd)

 

Those are all 4th rd and later that isn't too bad if you ask me. That said you really need to hit no those first and second rounders...and late he didn't...but that's where the money is at...anything 4th and later is just icing on the cake if you hit there...and we got some good contributers...even guys like Clint Sessions who I didn't list.

This is all true, & even Jeff Saturday was maybe the biggest pick-up as an UDFA, but after 2006 that drafting magic was gone...

Once the core of Glenn, the Ryan's, Scott, & Saturday got broken up on the line, the O-line has never been the same, and to some extent the lack of talent brought in from the 2007-2010 drafts left the Colts short on talent on the lines and overall depth...

[schwamm]

Grigson is lying!!!!! Pagano was at USC talking to marcus Martin C. Our o line coached worked out Nevada's bitonio for guard. We wouldn't have done that if he's satisfied w/ holmes. last year he said he prefers drafting corners and signing o line in free agency. He did the exact opposite. He's doing what good GM's do. Keep the media in the dark.

Sorry, but checking out college players means NOTHING. Seems like I say this every year to no avail, but if they check out 100 guys, only one or two of those end up actually getting drafted by the Colts, if that many.

[NewEra]

Holmes had the entire last year to work out, learn the playbook and be ready for this chance. I'm sure they been working with him since day one. Having Costa is good insurance and shows don't get cumfy. Need to keep plugging away. Going to be some good camp battles. Exited to see what Holmes has done with himself. If I can put on 30 pounds of muscle in a year with no trainer or special dieting Holmes should be able to add some weight but mostly strength.

[akcolt]

To me all he really said was we are not going after Mack. If a name is handed to him he thinks will help the team he will go after him.He hit all his initial targets.n His focus now is on the draft that is what 43 days away?

 

Did you expect the guy to run down a list of potential players he is keeping an eye on? We are watching player 1,2,3 to see what happens and expect players 5,6,7 to  eventually be cut from their current team. As of now those are the 7 guys we think might be able to help us our goal is to wait until after the draft and grab at least 3 of them.

 

He said what he always says if he sees someone that can help the team he will bring him in. If he does he will. I still think if things don't come together for the O Line Goodwin would be an easy 1 yr deal. to fix Center spot. FA is where players get over paid and GM's get into trouble no problems with what is happening. I am not sure how you pay all that cash for a C and keep your job very long anyway.

 

Alex Mack is what has everyone heated. He is a C guys come on. We are squared away at the most important position. Grigs will protect him.

[ponyboy]

Nah.  He still wants Mack.  They've agreed to reasonable and fair contract terms (that the Browns would match).  But now he's just trying to bait the Browns into dropping the transition tag by appearing to have no interest.  Yeah, I'm still in denial.

[GoColts8818]

At some point you have to figure out if Holmes can play or not.  If we bring in another center you aren't going to figure that out.  Costa is another stop gap guy (who you hope better than the previous one) who will be used to hold down the position till Holmes is ready in a perfect world.  If Holmes is just awful and Costa disappoints the Colts can make a move for another Center this off-season and depending on what happens with Mack he might be out there and heck might even be an unrestricted free agent then. 

 

Also I liked what I saw from Howell last year.  I have no problem with him competing with probably a rookie in the draft for the starting job at safety. 

 

The other need they could use in the draft would be another pass rusher but I think the Colts are banking on Werner developing (no I don't think they expect him to be another Mathis but I do think they do expect him to be able to put pressure on the other team's QB.)

 

I think they are a little weak at NT still but I do think Jones is an upgrade over Franklin and you would hope the younger guys get better this year.  So I think they are set on the d-line.

 

They probably need another Middle linebacker in the draft for depth reasons but I think they have two sound starters.  OLB they might add another body again for depth but they are pretty set.

 

Corner they have the three starters and probably need another guy in the draft or as undrafted free agent for depth reasons.

 

Safety I already touched on. 

 

On offense they are set at QB, WR, TE, RB (both halfback and fullback).  They probably need another guy along the o-line for depth reasons but they have their starters in place.  Tackle was pretty good going into the year with Castonzo and GC.  They will get Thomas back at guard who we lost before we got a real look at last year and they have to be banking on Thornton taking a step forward to secure the other starting guard spot.  If he doesn't they will be in the market for another starting guard after this season and the center position I touched on before. 

 

Special Teams we are set at the kicker spots and long snapper but I think they are still looking for a returner but again you can probably get that late in the draft or as an undrafted free agent.

 

So I think we are pretty much done unless something unexpected happens. 

[therobg125]

i have faith in this team that it can compete....we have had someone/something to rally around the past 2 seasons, and each season we've played with fire, so just imagine the fire the players will play with for irasy....also many times before we've found "diamonds in the rough"....howell played well and showed great potential last season. Holmes will be better than satelle - he was injured all of last season....thomas will be back - upgrade over mcglynn....we can bring in comp for thornton....our d line is underrated, as well s our linebackers....walden was a good pickup who did exactly what he was supposed to do, his stats don't show that he actually pressured the qb a decent amount of times, so he actually showed more than what was expected...our dline with redding (who i think improved/impressed as the season went on),arthur, and rjf? (he sucks), but despite rjf, i think it improved marginally.....our linebackers well outside of jerrell, walden, and mathis we will need a few bodies to step up and play well (maybe through the draft we can find a decent pass rushing old)....we also need a cb because when softy went down, it pretty much exposed our pass d.....i see 10-6 this season (not a bad record....but i'm very excited about the 15-16 season....that's the sb season....that's when the talent will be fully evaluated, when we will get alex mack (only if need be), we will have pretty good cap space because we didn't join the arms race, luck may rise to the top of the qb charts (brady and mannning will almost be 40), trent will finally be cut, and we will have all of our picks (looking at you with that weird face Grigson)...i see 12-4/13-3 that season....there's a plan in place/just trust it...

[Hoosiernsavga]

I would.  I'm not exactly thrilled about Howell and Landry running safety duties.  May not be the worst safety duo, but I don't see it being very good either.

We really need to draft J.Ward... I don't think he will be there for us but if he is and we don't draft him I will be shocked. Although it won't be the first time. LOL

[George Costanza III]

The legend of Phil Costa, Former Dallas player a team that has had interior Oline problems

                            games started                                 games played

2013 Dallas......................0..................................................3........

2012 Dallas......................3..................................................3.....

2011 Dallas......................16................................................16..

2010 Dallas......................1...................................................4

Started 20 of 64 games and played 26 of 64 games

In the last 2 years of 6 of 32 games and started 3 of those 32 games

Source NFL.com go see for yourself.

[George Costanza III]

ESPN says " Colts have not sufficiently addressed an Oline thats gotten QB Luck Battered, maybe they mean battered as in before

deep frying either way for Andrew Luck it'll probably be the same 1.5 seconds and then run for your life.

For the last two years the Grigson/Pagano duo has said priority number one PROTECT LUCK BETTER. Do you see the same lack

of results that I do.

[George Costanza III]

I think people need to stop focusing on the bad signings and instead start focusing on all the good things Grigs has done.

 

- Andrew Luck

- Vontae Davis x2

- Jerrell Freeman

- Gosder Cherilus

- Darius Butler

- TY Hilton

- LaVon Brazill

- Coby Fleener

- Dwayne Allen

- Cory Redding

- Vick Ballard

 

etc...

I hate to break this to you but Irsay pulled the trigger on the drafting of Andrew Luck, did you miss the part where he let peyton

go and moved foward with Luck.

[SteelDragon]

ESPN says " Colts have not sufficiently addressed an Oline thats gotten QB Luck Battered, maybe they mean battered as in before

deep frying either way for Andrew Luck it'll probably be the same 1.5 seconds and then run for your life.

For the last two years the Grigson/Pagano duo has said priority number one PROTECT LUCK BETTER. Do you see the same lack

of results that I do.

 

Yep. 

Unless Grigs can land interior O-linemen(plural!) in the draft, or by chance, land an unheralded FA or two, I don't feel that the problems have been addressed.

If you're content with Costa and Holmes as the answer to our O-line woes, you need to put down the glass and step away from the Kool-Aid.

[BlueCollarColts]

Yep. 

Unless Grigs can land interior O-linemen(plural!) in the draft, or by chance, land an unheralded FA or two, I don't feel that the problems have been addressed.

If you're content with Costa and Holmes as the answer to our O-line woes, you need to put down the glass and step away from the Kool-Aid.

Really? Has Holmes looked bad in practice or something? Because I have a feeling you haven't seen him play really, so you automatically put your judgement over Grigson's, even though the coaches tell Grigson what they see out of him in practice...

[SteelDragon]

Really? Has Holmes looked bad in practice or something? Because I have a feeling you haven't seen him play really, so you automatically put your judgement over Grigson's, even though the coaches tell Grigson what they see out of him in practice...

 

Logic suggests that the coaching staff didn't have enough confidence in him last season to give him even a single snap over the likes of McGlynn and Satele. Did he even suit up for a game? You're right I've never seen him play- because he hasn't!

Now all of a sudden he's going to be the answer to all of our prayers at center?  

[vitoaf27]

For a long time there was a "Trust in Polian" sentiment in Colts fandom, especially around draft time...

and as the years went along his draft scheme seemed to almost purposefully become more and more unorthodox, seemingly on purpose...

 

I held a grudge on Polian for a long time after the New York game. Was glad he was the Colts GM during the Peyton era, but think he was kept on the job 3-4 years too long...

 

I don't want to derail this thread at all, but I think a lot of the drafting woes in Polian's final years here were more to do with his son, Chris Polian, than him. That's just my opinion.

[schwamm]

Logic suggests that the coaching staff didn't have enough confidence in him last season to give him even a single snap over the likes of McGlynn and Satele. Did he even suit up for a game? You're right I've never seen him play- because he hasn't!

Now all of a sudden he's going to be the answer to all of our prayers at center?

Or logic suggests the coaches didn't yet think he was big enough, strong enough, knew the playbook well enough, or was yet ready to get thrown into the game. It never seemed to me that they were in a hurry to get him into games, but I always expected it was more to give him time to watch and learn than because he was terrible.

A year with the strength and conditioning trainers, a year with the playbook, a year with coaching and practice can make all the difference for some guys. But you wouldn't know it reading a lot of the posts here. Y 'all must be a bunch of teenagers with insisting on immediate gratification all the time. Patience can be a very rewarding thing.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

This. Cheese and crackers fellas. We could be like the Raiders and grossly overpay FAs, but he doesn't. He has the ability to plan ahead, and make sure we can resign key pieces when we need to.

To me, it's NEVER a good idea to draft a rookie lineman and throw them out right away. Instead, he drafts Holmes and gives him a year to develop before thrusting him into a starting position. He may pan out, he may not, but Jeff Saturday was a UDFA that sat out a year before playing in the league. Now everyone's drawers are in a bunch because we didn't pay some guy to be a starter at C. My only concern, at this point, is bringing in more depth. Mack woulda been nice, but not at 10/mil per season. Ugh... it's this type of mentality on this board that has me coming back less and less. Grigs has done a LOT more than Polian as far as FA goes.

Nicks? We brought in a guy like Nicks for a one year prove it deal? That's fantastic in my opinion that he pulled that one off. Now with Wayne, Hilton, and Nicks... we have a pretty scary looking core of receivers. And give Rogers more time to develop, and ... man oh man. I have NO problems with Grigson, and for someone to suggest that a poor year at the line position will result in his firing is, um... yeah... it's just not bright.

If nicks can pull it together and become our number one, and Rogers stays patient, he could become our number two when Reggie leaves... I like the sound of it.... Not Reggie leaving just the sound of our for now, future WR group.

[ponyboy]

Agree sometimes I think he was better from the 4th down, and free agency, as opposed to 2 thru the 3rd?

 

Yes.  He had a knack for whiffing in the 3rd round.  Here are some of Polian's third round whiffs. [Not including Brandon Bullsworth of course, who was also a 3rd round pick]

 

E.G Green

Paul Miranda (actually 1st pick in 4th round)

David Macklin

Cory Bird

Joe Jefferson

Don Strickland

Ben Hartsock

Gilbert Gardner

Vincent Burns

Quinn Pitcock

Freddy Keiaho

Dante Hughes

Philip Wheeler

Kevin Thomas

[pgt_rob]

Money hording for the big contracts in a couple years?

[TKnight24]

Money hording for the big contracts in a couple years?

Couple years? Try next season

[USAFHoosier]

Next 2 seasons will have a lot of big contracts

[jskinnz]

Or logic suggests the coaches didn't yet think he was big enough, strong enough, knew the playbook well enough, or was yet ready to get thrown into the game. It never seemed to me that they were in a hurry to get him into games, but I always expected it was more to give him time to watch and learn than because he was terrible.

A year with the strength and conditioning trainers, a year with the playbook, a year with coaching and practice can make all the difference for some guys. But you wouldn't know it reading a lot of the posts here. Y 'all must be a bunch of teenagers with insisting on immediate gratification all the time. Patience can be a very rewarding thing.

You know what I have noticed over my posting time here? The more reasonable and rational the point being made is, the lack of responses it receives from the board masses. For an example, your post here. Because really, what is there to argue with?

If the people on this board ran their business the way they want the Colts run, the word that would best describe said business would be bankrupt.

[jvan1973]

Logic suggests that the coaching staff didn't have enough confidence in him last season to give him even a single snap over the likes of McGlynn and Satele. Did he even suit up for a game? You're right I've never seen him play- because he hasn't!

Now all of a sudden he's going to be the answer to all of our prayers at center?

how many snaps did Jeff Saturday get his rookie season while selling electrical supplies in North Carolina?

[jskinnz]

Yes.  He had a knack for whiffing in the 3rd round.  Here are some of Polian's third round whiffs. [Not including Brandon Bullsworth of course, who was also a 3rd round pick]

 

E.G Green

Paul Miranda (actually 1st pick in 4th round)

David Macklin

Cory Bird

Joe Jefferson

Don Strickland

Ben Hartsock

Gilbert Gardner

Vincent Burns

Quinn Pitcock

Freddy Keiaho

Dante Hughes

Philip Wheeler

Kevin Thomas

I think this is a completely subjective list and completely dependent on your definition of whiff. Many of those players contributed to winning teams. None of them to be confused with elite players but many made impacts in their time as a Colt.

[schwamm]

You know what I have noticed over my posting time here? The more reasonable and rational the point being made is, the lack of responses it receives from the board masses. For an example, your post here. Because really, what is there to argue with?

If the people on this board ran their business the way they want the Colts run, the word that would best describe said business would be bankrupt.

I came to terms with that a few years ago, in one of the earlier iterations of this forum. I think if someone cares about generating responses, it kinda serves well to be irrational, sensational, and too frequently overly negative.

Thanks for the comment.

[JoKeR]

Feels like a gamble to me. The team's biggest issues are interior Oline and the Colts want to go with a guy that's never played at the pro level and a newly acquired backup that's average.....

Hope it works out.

[canadiancolt1298]

i was reading scouting report on holmes its pretty good .. knows how to run a pro style offence from oline perspective he was a long starting center til he got hurt I think if he can be healty for a whole offseason and training camp I think he will surely beat out costa

[schwamm]

i was reading scouting report on holmes its pretty good .. knows how to run a pro style offence from oline perspective he was a long starting center til he got hurt I think if he can be healty for a whole offseason and training camp I think he will surely beat out costa

Thanks for that. People have very short memories. It's almost as if they weren't around for the year Chapman didn't play a down. There was a moment late in the '12 season when Chap could have been brought in, but The club decided to shut him down in favor of making sure he was more ready for this past season. Why would we expect something different with Holmes? The club knows the value of patiently allowing their players to heal and learn, when that is an option.

[Maniq]

He might still have FA's in his scope. No need to blow a plan b/c of the media.

But what do I know...