An Offseason Trade Scenario I Haven't Heard Mentioned Yet...

[jackbutton96]

Alright, are you ready for part 18 trillion in the 'the Colts should make this or that trade and/or draft these or those players' series? Hold tight, this might get a little weird, here we go:

Let's say Manning comes back and practices towards the end of the season, maybe even gets a little game time. He shows every indication that he'll return to his old form. We finish 1-15 with the rights to the first pick in the upcoming draft. The 2012 NFL league year rolls around and we make the following moves:

Let Walk: Reggie Wayne, Robert Mathis, Anthony Gonzales, Pierre Garcon, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, Kerry Collins, and Jacob Lacey. Wayne and Mathis are going to want a significant payday, Garcon will likely get a decent offer from someone else that's more than we should pay, Gonzales and Lacey just stink, and Diem, Saturday, and Collins are just too old and need to move on. These moves (or lack thereof) will save us lots of cap space!

Cut: Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes, Gary Brackett, and Melvin Bullitt. Two 1st round busts and two mediocre/overpaid injured guys. Saves even more cap space!

Trade: Dwight Freeney, Joseph Addai, and Dallas Clark, possibly in a package deal. Let's say we package them to a team that's already a playoff contender that a move like this could be enough to put them over the top. Let's say the Lions, and we get their 2012 1st and 4th round picks in return (which based on their current record would be the 30th and 126th picks). In order to make this work, we might have to renegotiate some or all of their contracts as a condition of the trade. Otherwise their cap hit would probably be too much for Detroit. Once we unload these guys, we free up a huge amount of cap space for ourselves!

Sign Free Agents: Matt Flynn - QB from Green Bay (27), Carl Nicks - G from New Orleans (27), Dwayne Bowe - WR from Kansas City (27), Paul Soliai - DT from Miami (28), Tracy Porter - CB from New Orleans (26), and LaRon Landry - S from Washington (27). We'll have tons of cap room and actually be able to bring in guys off this caliber, all of which are from 26 to 28 years old, in their prime, and have a good 5-8 years left in the tank. But all are seasoned enough to be able to supply our team with much needed veteran leadership, since the vast majority of our own vets will be gone.

Surprise trade: In the days leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, we make a blockbuster trade with the Vikings, sending them Peyton Manning and Austin Collie in a package deal in return for their 2012 and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks (which based on their current record would be the 7th and 39th picks in the 2012 draft). The trade sets off an enormous media blitz with many experts/fans outraged about it and many saying it makes sense and that Andrew Luck is destined for Indy. Manning is happy with the trade, in fact, he asks the front office for it.

Draft Day: As we go on the clock, everyone expects to hear us call Andrew Luck's name, but instead is shocked to instead hear that we've traded the #1 pick to Miami (who then drafts Andrew Luck, QB from Stanford) in return for their 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks (#2, #34, and #66) and their 2013 1st and 4th round picks. Then we turn around and trade the #2 pick to the Rams (who then draft Matt Kalil, OT from USC) for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#4 and #36). The Rams make the move cause they desperately want Kalil and are worried that Arizona will take him with the 3rd pick (which they end up using to draft Jonathan Martin, OT from Stanford). We then receive an offer from Seattle, which we accept, for the #4 pick (which they use to draft Matt Barkley, QB from USC) in exchange for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#6 and #38). Seattle makes the move because Pete Carroll desperately wants Matt Barkley and is worried that Denver will knab him up with the #5 pick (which they end up using to draft Landry Jones, QB from Oklahoma). We then trade the #6 pick to the Browns (who then draft Alshon Jeffery, WR from South Carolina) for their two 2012 first round picks (#11 and #20 from Atlanta for the Julio Jones trade). We then draft as follows:

#7 (from MIN) - Justin Blackmon, WR from Oklahoma State

#11 (from CLE) - Quinton Coples, DE from North Carolina

#20 (from ATL via CLE) - Cordy Glenn, G from Georgia

#30 (from DET) - Manti T'eo - LB from Notre Dame

#33 IND - Peter Konz, C from Wisconsin

#34 (from MIA) - Jerel Worthy, DT from Michigan State

#36 (from STL) - Dwayne Allen, TE from Clemson

#38 (from SEA) - Chase Minnifield, CB/KR from Virginia

#39 (from MIN) - Jayron Hosley, CB from Virginia Tech

#65 IND - LaMichael James, RB from Oregon

#66 (from MIA) - Ryan Broyles, WR/PR from Oklahoma

#97 IND - Nick Foles, QB from Arizona

#126 (from DET) - Jeff Fuller, WR from Texas A&M

#129 IND - Trevor Guyton, DE from California

#161 IND - Tom Compton, OT from South Dakota

#193 IND - Kevious Watkins, G from South Carolina

And after all of that, we still have 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 1 third rounder, and 2 fourth rounders (as well as our 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks) in the 2013 draft!

Did your head explode? Alright, let me have it now...

[Andy]

16 Draft picks is very unrealistic. Here's a trade scenario for ya:

We sign Robert Mathis to a franchise tag... then we trade him to the Buffalo Bills for their 2nd round pick in 2012, Kyle Williams and a 3rd round pick in 2013

[noah larson]

Alright, are you ready for part 18 trillion in the 'the Colts should make this or that trade and/or draft these or those players' series? Hold tight, this might get a little weird, here we go:

Let's say Manning comes back and practices towards the end of the season, maybe even gets a little game time. He shows every indication that he'll return to his old form. We finish 1-15 with the rights to the first pick in the upcoming draft. The 2012 NFL league year rolls around and we make the following moves:

Let Walk: Reggie Wayne, Robert Mathis, Anthony Gonzales, Pierre Garcon, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, Kerry Collins, and Jacob Lacey. Wayne and Mathis are going to want a significant payday, Garcon will likely get a decent offer from someone else that's more than we should pay, Gonzales and Lacey just stink, and Diem, Saturday, and Collins are just too old and need to move on. These moves (or lack thereof) will save us lots of cap space!

Cut: Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes, Gary Brackett, and Melvin Bullitt. Two 1st round busts and two mediocre/overpaid injured guys. Saves even more cap space!

Trade: Dwight Freeney, Joseph Addai, and Dallas Clark, possibly in a package deal. Let's say we package them to a team that's already a playoff contender that a move like this could be enough to put them over the top. Let's say the Lions, and we get their 2012 1st and 4th round picks in return (which based on their current record would be the 30th and 126th picks). In order to make this work, we might have to renegotiate some or all of their contracts as a condition of the trade. Otherwise their cap hit would probably be too much for Detroit. Once we unload these guys, we free up a huge amount of cap space for ourselves!

Sign Free Agents: Matt Flynn - QB from Green Bay (27), Carl Nicks - G from New Orleans (27), Dwayne Bowe - WR from Kansas City (27), Paul Soliai - DT from Miami (28), Tracy Porter - CB from New Orleans (26), and LaRon Landry - S from Washington (27). We'll have tons of cap room and actually be able to bring in guys off this caliber, all of which are from 26 to 28 years old, in their prime, and have a good 5-8 years left in the tank. But all are seasoned enough to be able to supply our team with much needed veteran leadership, since the vast majority of our own vets will be gone.

Surprise trade: In the days leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, we make a blockbuster trade with the Vikings, sending them Peyton Manning and Austin Collie in a package deal in return for their 2012 and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks (which based on their current record would be the 7th and 39th picks in the 2012 draft). The trade sets off an enormous media blitz with many experts/fans outraged about it and many saying it makes sense and that Andrew Luck is destined for Indy. Manning is happy with the trade, in fact, he asks the front office for it.

Draft Day: As we go on the clock, everyone expects to hear us call Andrew Luck's name, but instead is shocked to instead hear that we've traded the #1 pick to Miami (who then drafts Andrew Luck, QB from Stanford) in return for their 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks (#2, #34, and #66) and their 2013 1st and 4th round picks. Then we turn around and trade the #2 pick to the Rams (who then draft Matt Kalil, OT from USC) for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#4 and #36). The Rams make the move cause they desperately want Kalil and are worried that Arizona will take him with the 3rd pick (which they end up using to draft Jonathan Martin, OT from Stanford). We then receive an offer from Seattle, which we accept, for the #4 pick (which they use to draft Matt Barkley, QB from USC) in exchange for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#6 and #38). Seattle makes the move because Pete Carroll desperately wants Matt Barkley and is worried that Denver will knab him up with the #5 pick (which they end up using to draft Landry Jones, QB from Oklahoma). We then trade the #6 pick to the Browns (who then draft Alshon Jeffery, WR from South Carolina) for their two 2012 first round picks (#11 and #20 from Atlanta for the Julio Jones trade). We then draft as follows:

#7 (from MIN) - Justin Blackmon, WR from Oklahoma State

#11 (from CLE) - Quinton Coples, DE from North Carolina

#20 (from ATL via CLE) - Cordy Glenn, G from Georgia

#30 (from DET) - Manti T'eo - LB from Notre Dame

#33 IND - Peter Konz, C from Wisconsin

#34 (from MIA) - Jerel Worthy, DT from Michigan State

#36 (from STL) - Dwayne Allen, TE from Clemson

#38 (from SEA) - Chase Minnifield, CB/KR from Virginia

#39 (from MIN) - Jayron Hosley, CB from Virginia Tech

#65 IND - LaMichael James, RB from Oregon

#66 (from MIA) - Ryan Broyles, WR/PR from Oklahoma

#97 IND - Nick Foles, QB from Arizona

#126 (from DET) - Jeff Fuller, WR from Texas A&M

#129 IND - Trevor Guyton, DE from California

#161 IND - Tom Compton, OT from South Dakota

#193 IND - Kevious Watkins, G from South Carolina

And after all of that, we still have 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 1 third rounder, and 2 fourth rounders (as well as our 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks) in the 2013 draft!

Did your head explode? Alright, let me have it now...

I just blacked out reading this.

[Jason_]

you know..what's kind of funny is that last night I couldn't sleep and I started thinking about the draft. I too came up with a very fantasy world draft scenario (in which case we took Coples, Te'o and Claiborn in the first round) but I think yours still is even further "out there" than mine was...but not by much lol

[husker61]

this is the craziest thing i have ever heard!

[dn4192]

Alright, are you ready for part 18 trillion in the 'the Colts should make this or that trade and/or draft these or those players' series? Hold tight, this might get a little weird, here we go:

Let's say Manning comes back and practices towards the end of the season, maybe even gets a little game time. He shows every indication that he'll return to his old form. We finish 1-15 with the rights to the first pick in the upcoming draft. The 2012 NFL league year rolls around and we make the following moves:

Let Walk: Reggie Wayne, Robert Mathis, Anthony Gonzales, Pierre Garcon, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, Kerry Collins, and Jacob Lacey. Wayne and Mathis are going to want a significant payday, Garcon will likely get a decent offer from someone else that's more than we should pay, Gonzales and Lacey just stink, and Diem, Saturday, and Collins are just too old and need to move on. These moves (or lack thereof) will save us lots of cap space!

Cut: Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes, Gary Brackett, and Melvin Bullitt. Two 1st round busts and two mediocre/overpaid injured guys. Saves even more cap space!

Trade: Dwight Freeney, Joseph Addai, and Dallas Clark, possibly in a package deal. Let's say we package them to a team that's already a playoff contender that a move like this could be enough to put them over the top. Let's say the Lions, and we get their 2012 1st and 4th round picks in return (which based on their current record would be the 30th and 126th picks). In order to make this work, we might have to renegotiate some or all of their contracts as a condition of the trade. Otherwise their cap hit would probably be too much for Detroit. Once we unload these guys, we free up a huge amount of cap space for ourselves!

Sign Free Agents: Matt Flynn - QB from Green Bay (27), Carl Nicks - G from New Orleans (27), Dwayne Bowe - WR from Kansas City (27), Paul Soliai - DT from Miami (28), Tracy Porter - CB from New Orleans (26), and LaRon Landry - S from Washington (27). We'll have tons of cap room and actually be able to bring in guys off this caliber, all of which are from 26 to 28 years old, in their prime, and have a good 5-8 years left in the tank. But all are seasoned enough to be able to supply our team with much needed veteran leadership, since the vast majority of our own vets will be gone.

Surprise trade: In the days leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, we make a blockbuster trade with the Vikings, sending them Peyton Manning and Austin Collie in a package deal in return for their 2012 and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks (which based on their current record would be the 7th and 39th picks in the 2012 draft). The trade sets off an enormous media blitz with many experts/fans outraged about it and many saying it makes sense and that Andrew Luck is destined for Indy. Manning is happy with the trade, in fact, he asks the front office for it.

Draft Day: As we go on the clock, everyone expects to hear us call Andrew Luck's name, but instead is shocked to instead hear that we've traded the #1 pick to Miami (who then drafts Andrew Luck, QB from Stanford) in return for their 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks (#2, #34, and #66) and their 2013 1st and 4th round picks. Then we turn around and trade the #2 pick to the Rams (who then draft Matt Kalil, OT from USC) for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#4 and #36). The Rams make the move cause they desperately want Kalil and are worried that Arizona will take him with the 3rd pick (which they end up using to draft Jonathan Martin, OT from Stanford). We then receive an offer from Seattle, which we accept, for the #4 pick (which they use to draft Matt Barkley, QB from USC) in exchange for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#6 and #38). Seattle makes the move because Pete Carroll desperately wants Matt Barkley and is worried that Denver will knab him up with the #5 pick (which they end up using to draft Landry Jones, QB from Oklahoma). We then trade the #6 pick to the Browns (who then draft Alshon Jeffery, WR from South Carolina) for their two 2012 first round picks (#11 and #20 from Atlanta for the Julio Jones trade). We then draft as follows:

#7 (from MIN) - Justin Blackmon, WR from Oklahoma State

#11 (from CLE) - Quinton Coples, DE from North Carolina

#20 (from ATL via CLE) - Cordy Glenn, G from Georgia

#30 (from DET) - Manti T'eo - LB from Notre Dame

#33 IND - Peter Konz, C from Wisconsin

#34 (from MIA) - Jerel Worthy, DT from Michigan State

#36 (from STL) - Dwayne Allen, TE from Clemson

#38 (from SEA) - Chase Minnifield, CB/KR from Virginia

#39 (from MIN) - Jayron Hosley, CB from Virginia Tech

#65 IND - LaMichael James, RB from Oregon

#66 (from MIA) - Ryan Broyles, WR/PR from Oklahoma

#97 IND - Nick Foles, QB from Arizona

#126 (from DET) - Jeff Fuller, WR from Texas A&M

#129 IND - Trevor Guyton, DE from California

#161 IND - Tom Compton, OT from South Dakota

#193 IND - Kevious Watkins, G from South Carolina

And after all of that, we still have 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 1 third rounder, and 2 fourth rounders (as well as our 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks) in the 2013 draft!

Did your head explode? Alright, let me have it now...

Anything is possible, problem one would be trades like you suggest just don't happen in teh NFL due to salary cap issues. Second there is no way anyone would give up what you are suggesting for our Number 1 pick and the other pick we trade. Third, we won't have the monies to sign all 16 of those guys.

[Mameluc]

LOL

[Balzer40]

While I appreciate the obvious time and effort you put into this, the entire idea is completely ridiculous.

[Peterk2011]

Let's forget that such scenarios never happen, and imagine we can actualy do this. Then:

- We will have 3 rookie and one avarage WR. Currently we have 2 good and young WR-s, plus an all-pro.

- We will have 2 rookie DE-s. Currently we have the arguably best DE pair in the NFL history.

- We will have an average QB at best. Currently we have the GOAT.

- We will have only 2 RB-s. ;) One rookie from the middle rounds of the draft, and a sophomore. Currently we have Addai who's just re-signed, and we already have that sophomore.

- We will have a rookie TE. Currently we have a not-so-old all-pro.

So, our team will probably be a lot younger. We will enjoy watching the youngest team in the NFL loose every single game.

[Mouthfire]

Come on, man!!! Were you even going to propose something AT LEAST remotely plausible?

[haseo15]

The Free agents you want to sign are just insane no way we could afford them and then all the draft picks you have us getting and the people you have us taking is out of this world.

Thanks,

haseo15

[Captain Americolt]

16 draft picks?? Cmon man be realistic were gonna have to cut alot of players to get to the 53 man roster...

[chad72]

Let Wayne go and I am sure he will be somewhat productive as a possession wideout somewhere else, he will give us AT LEAST a 4th round compensatory pick for later in 2013. Sign Aubrayo Franklin (Saints, NT) and Terrell Thomas (NYG, CB) as free agents, middle tier free agents that will help us. They can have Justin Tryon, we can have Terrell Thomas, LOL .

Re-sign Garcon, unfortunately, for a premium that he may demand (around $20 mil. for 4 years kind though it is half of Santonio Holmes and Brandon Marshall money), and re-sign Gonzo, hopefully for cheap on a 1 yr. deal (about $2 mil.). Draft an outside wideout then.

FIRST TRADE: Trade our pick No.2 (still believe the Dolphins get the No.1 pick due to an easier schedule making them the more lousier 0-16 even if we tie) to swap first round picks at No.5/6, get their second round pick and their third round picks from Washington or Seattle, whoever is behind the other. The Redskins and Seahawks need a QB and will make that trade, IMO, to get the 2nd best QB in the draft, whoever they feel it is - Landry Jones or Matt Barkley.

SECOND TRADE: If the Browns are sitting at No.8 or No.9 and want a WR bad and Alshon Jeffery is gone and they want to move up and get Justin Blackmon at No.5 (say), obtain pick No.8 and pick No.40 for our pick No.5. Since the Browns have 2 first round picks and do not need to give up both, Holmgren will more likely make that trade. They would find it hard pressed to move up to No.2 since they will have to give up both their first round picks. But moving up to No.5 from No.8 or No.9 is more doable.

So, let us see, what do we have here - pick No.8 (from Browns via Seahawks or Redskins), pick No.34, pick No.37 (from Redskins/Seahawks), pick No.40 (from Browns), pick No.66, pick No.69 (from Redskins/Seahawks) - 6 picks within the first 69 picks. THAT would be how wheeling and dealing should be done to get talent in the draft .

Edited November 2, 2011 by chad72

[chad72]

So, let us see, what do we have here - pick No.8 (from Browns via Seahawks or Redskins), pick No.34, pick No.37 (from Redskins/Seahawks), pick No.40 (from Browns), pick No.66, pick No.69 (from Redskins/Seahawks) - 6 picks within the first 69 picks. THAT would be how wheeling and dealing should be done to get talent in the draft .

Oh, with those 6 picks, this is what I would like to do:

Then those 6 picks - pick No.8 Morris Claiborne (CB), pick No.34 Ryan Tannehill (qb), pick No.37 Stephen Gilmore (CB), pick No.40 Dwight Jones (WR), pick No.66 T.J.McDonald (S) and pick No.69 Kawann Short (DT)

[husker61]

Re-sign Garcon, unfortunately, for a premium that he may demand (around $20 mil. for 4 years kind though it is half of Santonio Holmes and Brandon Marshall money), and re-sign Gonzo, hopefully for cheap on a 1 yr. deal (about $2 mil.). Draft an outside wideout then.

gonzo is gone. no way the colts or any other team pay him anything to sit on the bench. i would never pay garcon that much money. i doubt anyone else will ether.

Edited November 2, 2011 by husker61

[chad72]

gonzo is gone. no way the colts or any other team pay him anything to sit on the bench. i would never pay garcon that much money. i doubt anyone else will ether.

Everyone was so sure we will not overpay Addai and I expected a 3 yr. $12 mil. at least and he got $14 mil. over 3 years. All it takes is one WR starved team like the Redskins to get him so that he can run block and keep Ds honest with his go route speed. His run blocking is one of the best among WRs in the league, IMO. We have no one else that knows our system that can extend the field, Reggie cannot separate with the best now. I think that will be the ballpark we end up paying Garcon, around $5 mil. per year when it is all said and done.

Gonzo, yeah, I can see him gone just as much as I can see him re-signed for a low risk 1 yr. deal.

Edited November 2, 2011 by chad72

[husker61]

Everyone was so sure we will not overpay Addai and I expected a 3 yr. $12 mil. at least and he got $14 mil. over 3 years. All it takes is one WR starved team like the Redskins to get him so that he can run block and keep Ds honest with his go route speed. His run blocking is one of the best among WRs in the league, IMO. We have no one else that knows our system that can extend the field, Reggie cannot separate with the best now. I think that will be the ballpark we end up paying Garcon, around $5 mil. per year when it is all said and done.

Gonzo, yeah, I can see him gone just as much as I can see him re-signed for a low risk 1 yr. deal.

i would rather take a 2 million risk with moss or TO than gonzo.

you would be paying garcon the 9th highest salary in the league for wr's. no way that happens. you kill the team for over paying average players.

[jackbutton96]

Feedback, cool... I must tell everyone that I was fully aware of the ludacris nature of this post, but was compelled to do it. See, I think I might have a problem. I've formed a habit... I've been watching the Colts pretty much religiously since like 1987, and am obviously a diehard fan. These last 10 years or so I've gotten hooked on the endorphins that my hypothalamus produces while watching our Colts dominate the rest of the league. All those amazing performances, those Manning-lead comebacks, the glory, the pride... I'm an addict for that Colts junk! Right now, I'm living in the waking heck that is withdrawl. It's a nightmare I can't wake up from. The only thing I've found that seems to soothe this monkey on my back is dreaming of better days in the future of Colts land. So, it started immediately following our opener in Houston. I started considering the possibility of landing the top pick and what we could do with it to better the team for next year. It was a light at the end of the tunnel... Then we lost to Cleveland too. So I started daydreaming about the draft and trades more frequently. As we kept on losing, I began to think about these scenarios more and more frequently: when driving, while working, while my wife is talking to me, and even every night when I turn the lights out for bed. These last couple of weeks it's been getting out of control. The scenarios keep getting more and more absurd and outlandish, but I need them to stave off the pain of what's happened to our Colts. As the situation with the team gets worse and worse, I have to keeping increasing the dosage, both in potency and in frequency, of my little Colts fantasy land trips. I need help! Someone help me! Does anyone know of a good support group for what I'm going through here? Is there anybody...................................................................................out there?

Edited November 2, 2011 by jackbutton96

[chad72]

i would rather take a 2 million risk with moss or TO than gonzo.

you would be paying garcon the 9th highest salary in the league for wr's. no way that happens. you kill the team for over paying average players.

It is not what I would want to do or I would do. It is what I think the Polians would do, along the lines of Brackett and Hayden, overpaying for average players, IMO. I am lowering my expectations till I see otherwise.

Not saying you are wrong. Where are you getting the 9th highest salary from?

This is a 2009 season WR salary list, so it is lagging behind 2 years and $5 mil. is the 20th ranked salary for WRs back in 2009. So, don't be shocked if $5 mil. is somewhere in the ranks of 25th-30th among WRs for the 2012 season, in which case that might end up being the case for Garcon.

http://content.usato...osition/WR/2009

I think you are getting it from here: http://www.spotrac.c.../wide-receiver/ - that supports your 9th ranked base salary

The difference, as you can see, is you are talking only base salary, I am talking total salary that includes the signing bonus factored in. $20 mil. for 4 yrs. for Garcon will include his signing bonus, so his base salary plus his signing bonus will total to $5 mil. per year, thus it is not just his base salary that is $5 mil. per year. Hope that is clear.

Yes, I do agree that we can take a risk with T.O or Ocho Cinco than Gonzo for that $2 mil, totally agree with that, did not think about that.

Edited November 2, 2011 by chad72

[doogansquest]

It is not what I would want to do or I would do. It is what I think the Polians would do, along the lines of Brackett and Hayden, overpaying for average players, IMO. I am lowering my expectations till I see otherwise.

Not saying you are wrong. Where are you getting the 9th highest salary from?

This is a 2009 season WR salary list, so it is lagging behind 2 years and $5 mil. is the 20th ranked salary for WRs back in 2009. So, don't be shocked if $5 mil. is somewhere in the ranks of 25th-30th among WRs for the 2012 season, in which case that might end up being the case for Garcon.

http://content.usato...osition/WR/2009

I think you are getting it from here: http://www.spotrac.c.../wide-receiver/ - that supports your 9th ranked base salary

The difference, as you can see, is you are talking only base salary, I am talking total salary that includes the signing bonus factored in. $20 mil. for 4 yrs. for Garcon will include his signing bonus, so his base salary plus his signing bonus will total to $5 mil. per year, thus it is not just his base salary that is $5 mil. per year. Hope that is clear.

Yes, I do agree that we can take a risk with T.O or Ocho Cinco than Gonzo for that $2 mil, totally agree with that, did not think about that.

And seeing as how Garcon is currently in the top 10 for WR productivity in 2011, despite catching passes from a QB who only sees the ball for 20 minutes a game, I'd say paying 25th WR money for him is pretty good.

[husker61]

It is not what I would want to do or I would do. It is what I think the Polians would do, along the lines of Brackett and Hayden, overpaying for average players, IMO. I am lowering my expectations till I see otherwise.

Not saying you are wrong. Where are you getting the 9th highest salary from?

This is a 2009 season WR salary list, so it is lagging behind 2 years and $5 mil. is the 20th ranked salary for WRs back in 2009. So, don't be shocked if $5 mil. is somewhere in the ranks of 25th-30th among WRs for the 2012 season, in which case that might end up being the case for Garcon.

http://content.usato...osition/WR/2009

I think you are getting it from here: http://www.spotrac.c.../wide-receiver/ - that supports your 9th ranked base salary

The difference, as you can see, is you are talking only base salary, I am talking total salary that includes the signing bonus factored in. $20 mil. for 4 yrs. for Garcon will include his signing bonus, so his base salary plus his signing bonus will total to $5 mil. per year, thus it is not just his base salary that is $5 mil. per year. Hope that is clear.

Yes, I do agree that we can take a risk with T.O or Ocho Cinco than Gonzo for that $2 mil, totally agree with that, did not think about that.

that is where i got the salary information. we pretty much agree. signing bonuses always have to be included in any base salary cince it is the only part of the salary that is guaranteed.

[husker61]

And seeing as how Garcon is currently in the top 10 for WR productivity in 2011, despite catching passes from a QB who only sees the ball for 20 minutes a game, I'd say paying 25th WR money for him is pretty good.

25th would be great, but 5 million a year is #10. there is a huge difference. the new CBA has put a damper on the escalation of salaries this year. i think free agents are going to have to get used to a new norm.

[chad72]

25th would be great, but 5 million a year is #10. there is a huge difference. the new CBA has put a damper on the escalation of salaries this year. i think free agents are going to have to get used to a new norm.

I think it is the other way. I understand that the post lockout re-signing/free agency period ended up with middle tier free agent players like Donte Whitner (S), Barry Cofield (DT) etc. get overpaid and thus has raised the salary averages across positions. Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Santonio Holmes all get paid $10 mil. a year on average or more with signing bonuses, Larry Fitzgerald gets paid $15 mil. per year on average (8 yrs, 120 mil) and thus the WR salaries have gone up across the league. Getting paid half of that for Garcon ($5 mil. avg. per year) would end up being the market value next year for him, count on that. It is by no means an unreasonable extrapolation, IMO. It is hard for us to fathom that as being market value but the reality is we might have to get used to such exorbitant averages.

Edited November 3, 2011 by chad72

[oldunclemark]

Alright, are you ready for part 18 trillion in the 'the Colts should make this or that trade and/or draft these or those players' series? Hold tight, this might get a little weird, here we go:

Let's say Manning comes back and practices towards the end of the season, maybe even gets a little game time. He shows every indication that he'll return to his old form. We finish 1-15 with the rights to the first pick in the upcoming draft. The 2012 NFL league year rolls around and we make the following moves:

Let Walk: Reggie Wayne, Robert Mathis, Anthony Gonzales, Pierre Garcon, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, Kerry Collins, and Jacob Lacey. Wayne and Mathis are going to want a significant payday, Garcon will likely get a decent offer from someone else that's more than we should pay, Gonzales and Lacey just stink, and Diem, Saturday, and Collins are just too old and need to move on. These moves (or lack thereof) will save us lots of cap space!

Cut: Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes, Gary Brackett, and Melvin Bullitt. Two 1st round busts and two mediocre/overpaid injured guys. Saves even more cap space!

Trade: Dwight Freeney, Joseph Addai, and Dallas Clark, possibly in a package deal. Let's say we package them to a team that's already a playoff contender that a move like this could be enough to put them over the top. Let's say the Lions, and we get their 2012 1st and 4th round picks in return (which based on their current record would be the 30th and 126th picks). In order to make this work, we might have to renegotiate some or all of their contracts as a condition of the trade. Otherwise their cap hit would probably be too much for Detroit. Once we unload these guys, we free up a huge amount of cap space for ourselves!

Sign Free Agents: Matt Flynn - QB from Green Bay (27), Carl Nicks - G from New Orleans (27), Dwayne Bowe - WR from Kansas City (27), Paul Soliai - DT from Miami (28), Tracy Porter - CB from New Orleans (26), and LaRon Landry - S from Washington (27). We'll have tons of cap room and actually be able to bring in guys off this caliber, all of which are from 26 to 28 years old, in their prime, and have a good 5-8 years left in the tank. But all are seasoned enough to be able to supply our team with much needed veteran leadership, since the vast majority of our own vets will be gone.

Surprise trade: In the days leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, we make a blockbuster trade with the Vikings, sending them Peyton Manning and Austin Collie in a package deal in return for their 2012 and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks (which based on their current record would be the 7th and 39th picks in the 2012 draft). The trade sets off an enormous media blitz with many experts/fans outraged about it and many saying it makes sense and that Andrew Luck is destined for Indy. Manning is happy with the trade, in fact, he asks the front office for it.

Draft Day: As we go on the clock, everyone expects to hear us call Andrew Luck's name, but instead is shocked to instead hear that we've traded the #1 pick to Miami (who then drafts Andrew Luck, QB from Stanford) in return for their 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks (#2, #34, and #66) and their 2013 1st and 4th round picks. Then we turn around and trade the #2 pick to the Rams (who then draft Matt Kalil, OT from USC) for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#4 and #36). The Rams make the move cause they desperately want Kalil and are worried that Arizona will take him with the 3rd pick (which they end up using to draft Jonathan Martin, OT from Stanford). We then receive an offer from Seattle, which we accept, for the #4 pick (which they use to draft Matt Barkley, QB from USC) in exchange for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#6 and #38). Seattle makes the move because Pete Carroll desperately wants Matt Barkley and is worried that Denver will knab him up with the #5 pick (which they end up using to draft Landry Jones, QB from Oklahoma). We then trade the #6 pick to the Browns (who then draft Alshon Jeffery, WR from South Carolina) for their two 2012 first round picks (#11 and #20 from Atlanta for the Julio Jones trade). We then draft as follows:

#7 (from MIN) - Justin Blackmon, WR from Oklahoma State

#11 (from CLE) - Quinton Coples, DE from North Carolina

#20 (from ATL via CLE) - Cordy Glenn, G from Georgia

#30 (from DET) - Manti T'eo - LB from Notre Dame

#33 IND - Peter Konz, C from Wisconsin

#34 (from MIA) - Jerel Worthy, DT from Michigan State

#36 (from STL) - Dwayne Allen, TE from Clemson

#38 (from SEA) - Chase Minnifield, CB/KR from Virginia

#39 (from MIN) - Jayron Hosley, CB from Virginia Tech

#65 IND - LaMichael James, RB from Oregon

#66 (from MIA) - Ryan Broyles, WR/PR from Oklahoma

#97 IND - Nick Foles, QB from Arizona

#126 (from DET) - Jeff Fuller, WR from Texas A&M

#129 IND - Trevor Guyton, DE from California

#161 IND - Tom Compton, OT from South Dakota

#193 IND - Kevious Watkins, G from South Carolina

And after all of that, we still have 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 1 third rounder, and 2 fourth rounders (as well as our 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks) in the 2013 draft!

Did your head explode? Alright, let me have it now...

Indy would be an expansion team

A good expansion team..but an expansion team nonetheless...

[pacolts56]

Alright, are you ready for part 18 trillion in the 'the Colts should make this or that trade and/or draft these or those players' series? Hold tight, this might get a little weird, here we go:

Let's say Manning comes back and practices towards the end of the season, maybe even gets a little game time. He shows every indication that he'll return to his old form. We finish 1-15 with the rights to the first pick in the upcoming draft. The 2012 NFL league year rolls around and we make the following moves:

Let Walk: Reggie Wayne, Robert Mathis, Anthony Gonzales, Pierre Garcon, Jeff Saturday, Ryan Diem, Kerry Collins, and Jacob Lacey. Wayne and Mathis are going to want a significant payday, Garcon will likely get a decent offer from someone else that's more than we should pay, Gonzales and Lacey just stink, and Diem, Saturday, and Collins are just too old and need to move on. These moves (or lack thereof) will save us lots of cap space!

Cut: Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes, Gary Brackett, and Melvin Bullitt. Two 1st round busts and two mediocre/overpaid injured guys. Saves even more cap space!

Trade: Dwight Freeney, Joseph Addai, and Dallas Clark, possibly in a package deal. Let's say we package them to a team that's already a playoff contender that a move like this could be enough to put them over the top. Let's say the Lions, and we get their 2012 1st and 4th round picks in return (which based on their current record would be the 30th and 126th picks). In order to make this work, we might have to renegotiate some or all of their contracts as a condition of the trade. Otherwise their cap hit would probably be too much for Detroit. Once we unload these guys, we free up a huge amount of cap space for ourselves!

Sign Free Agents: Matt Flynn - QB from Green Bay (27), Carl Nicks - G from New Orleans (27), Dwayne Bowe - WR from Kansas City (27), Paul Soliai - DT from Miami (28), Tracy Porter - CB from New Orleans (26), and LaRon Landry - S from Washington (27). We'll have tons of cap room and actually be able to bring in guys off this caliber, all of which are from 26 to 28 years old, in their prime, and have a good 5-8 years left in the tank. But all are seasoned enough to be able to supply our team with much needed veteran leadership, since the vast majority of our own vets will be gone.

Surprise trade: In the days leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, we make a blockbuster trade with the Vikings, sending them Peyton Manning and Austin Collie in a package deal in return for their 2012 and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks (which based on their current record would be the 7th and 39th picks in the 2012 draft). The trade sets off an enormous media blitz with many experts/fans outraged about it and many saying it makes sense and that Andrew Luck is destined for Indy. Manning is happy with the trade, in fact, he asks the front office for it.

Draft Day: As we go on the clock, everyone expects to hear us call Andrew Luck's name, but instead is shocked to instead hear that we've traded the #1 pick to Miami (who then drafts Andrew Luck, QB from Stanford) in return for their 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks (#2, #34, and #66) and their 2013 1st and 4th round picks. Then we turn around and trade the #2 pick to the Rams (who then draft Matt Kalil, OT from USC) for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#4 and #36). The Rams make the move cause they desperately want Kalil and are worried that Arizona will take him with the 3rd pick (which they end up using to draft Jonathan Martin, OT from Stanford). We then receive an offer from Seattle, which we accept, for the #4 pick (which they use to draft Matt Barkley, QB from USC) in exchange for their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks (#6 and #38). Seattle makes the move because Pete Carroll desperately wants Matt Barkley and is worried that Denver will knab him up with the #5 pick (which they end up using to draft Landry Jones, QB from Oklahoma). We then trade the #6 pick to the Browns (who then draft Alshon Jeffery, WR from South Carolina) for their two 2012 first round picks (#11 and #20 from Atlanta for the Julio Jones trade). We then draft as follows:

#7 (from MIN) - Justin Blackmon, WR from Oklahoma State

#11 (from CLE) - Quinton Coples, DE from North Carolina

#20 (from ATL via CLE) - Cordy Glenn, G from Georgia

#30 (from DET) - Manti T'eo - LB from Notre Dame

#33 IND - Peter Konz, C from Wisconsin

#34 (from MIA) - Jerel Worthy, DT from Michigan State

#36 (from STL) - Dwayne Allen, TE from Clemson

#38 (from SEA) - Chase Minnifield, CB/KR from Virginia

#39 (from MIN) - Jayron Hosley, CB from Virginia Tech

#65 IND - LaMichael James, RB from Oregon

#66 (from MIA) - Ryan Broyles, WR/PR from Oklahoma

#97 IND - Nick Foles, QB from Arizona

#126 (from DET) - Jeff Fuller, WR from Texas A&M

#129 IND - Trevor Guyton, DE from California

#161 IND - Tom Compton, OT from South Dakota

#193 IND - Kevious Watkins, G from South Carolina

And after all of that, we still have 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 1 third rounder, and 2 fourth rounders (as well as our 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks) in the 2013 draft!

Did your head explode? Alright, let me have it now...

Yeah.....I haven't heard that scenario mentioned yet either.

[chad72]

that is where i got the salary information. we pretty much agree. signing bonuses always have to be included in any base salary cince it is the only part of the salary that is guaranteed.

I don't think the signing bonus portion part is included in the salaries listed on those. Even if it does, the yearly salaries doled out could just be how the salaries have been distributed across the years. A WR could have a 4 yr. $40 mil. contract and could have only $8 mil. as salary counting in 2011, you know what I mean, so a 1 yr. snapshot is never going to give you the true picture. That is why I do not think the #9 salary argument is an accurate one since one has to compare the avg. contract for WRs across the league, and compare it to the avg. Garcon will receive for the entire duration of the contract, not just 2011, so the numbers will not truly be #9 WR numbers if you compare averages.

Let us also remember this. Reggie Wayne signed a 6 yr. $39 mil. contract extension in 2005. Anyone who says Reggie Wayne was the #1 WR in 2005 is off his rocker, he was the #2 WR when Marvin was #1. They did expect him to become #1 eventually when they gave him the contract, I will give you that. So, expecting Garcon to get a $5 mil. avg for a 4 yr. contract would not be unreasonable.

Edited November 3, 2011 by chad72

[husker61]

I think it is the other way. I understand that the post lockout re-signing/free agency period ended up with middle tier free agent players like Donte Whitner (S), Barry Cofield (DT) etc. get overpaid and thus has raised the salary averages across positions. Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Santonio Holmes all get paid $10 mil. a year on average or more with signing bonuses, Larry Fitzgerald gets paid $15 mil. per year on average (8 yrs, 120 mil) and thus the WR salaries have gone up across the league. Getting paid half of that for Garcon ($5 mil. avg. per year) would end up being the market value next year for him, count on that. It is by no means an unreasonable extrapolation, IMO. It is hard for us to fathom that as bei g market value but the reality is we might have to get used to such exorbitant averages.

the salary cap went down, how can salaries go up? it doesn't make any sense.

using your fitzgerald example. an above average de would deserve $10 million because freeney is going to make $20 million next year! no team would be able to get under the cap if they give contracts based on your premise.

[chad72]

the salary cap went down, how can salaries go up? it doesn't make any sense.

If it were that cut and dry, my friend, everything would make sense. It is not. Here is a quick look at where teams are with the new salary cap of $120 mil.:

http://nflfootballno...32-teams-stand/

There is also a raise in the cap floor, as mentioned in this article by John Clayton. This means the cap floor will force all teams to spend at least 108M. Thus, teams like the Jaguars, Panthers, Chiefs, Cardinals etc. that were well below the salary cap will have to spend $108 mil. by the time the end of the season arrives. This means that the avg. amount spent by teams on players will ACTUALLY increase due to these teams resulting in a bidding war. That is what happened with Clint Session and Paul Posluzny, the Jaguars had to spend that money and spent more than they usually do.

I took the numbers above when the cap was higher, changed the salaries spent by teams like Dallas, Jets etc. that were over $120 mil. and changed those to $120 mil. to adhere to the salary cap. Then, I took the numbers of teams not spending $108 mil. and added the 32 teams together.

The average came out to $100.1 mil. if teams are not forced to spend the cap floor.

When I changed the salaries of only the teams that were spending less than $108 mil. to $108 mil. and the others that spent over $120 mil. capped off at $120 mil., the average came out to $109.9 mil.

That is an average of $10 mil. per team, my friend, and that is why salaries go up and that is why the players agreed to lower the cap but raise the cap floor, you think the players were that stupid to take a paycut outright, huh?

Just FYI, Freeney's average is $12 mil. (he signed a 6 yr. $72 mil. contract), his salary in 2012 is not reflective of his average since his contract was obviously back loaded. Again, you are making the same mistake of focusing on one year's salary hit on the cap vs comparing averages (which I stated Fitzgerald's to be $15 mil. on average). So, if Freeney signs a new contract worth $16 mil. on average (say 3 yr. extension for $48 mil), yes, the above average DE will get $8 mil on avg., no doubt in my mind. Charles Johnson of the Panthers signed a 6 yr. $72 mil. contract with the Panthers in 2011 after the lockout and I don't think he is as good as Freeney to have the same average but that is how it works, the averages have gone up since 2005 when Freeney was locked up and expect Mathis to demand a $10-12 mil. per year average if he hits free agency. Hurts, doesn't it, just to hear those numbers ?

If Garcon gets $20 mil. for 4 years, they could very well back load it as 3, 4, 6 and 7 so that his salary (including bonuses) is only $3 mil. in 2012, you get that part right?

Edited November 3, 2011 by chad72

[JoKeR]

Basically scrap the team? No, that would be a huge waist.

[CCH]

Wow. That's definitely something!

[husker61]

you think the players were that stupid to take a paycut outright, huh?

my friend, do you think the owners are that stupid to pay the players more money when they locked them out so they can get more of the revenue? didn't the owners get a bigger percentage of the revenue?

[chad72]

my friend, do you think the owners are that stupid to pay the players more money when they locked them out so they can get more of the revenue? didn't the owners get a bigger percentage of the revenue?

No the owners are not stupid but this is what they negotiated - instead of getting 1 billion off a 9 billion pie and splitting the rest 60-40 in favor of the players from the remaining 8 billion, they did a flat 52-48 in favor of the owners. So, they got back something. By ensuring the cap floor is enforced, the players made sure that when the cap does increase, the 90% floor also increased. Plus increased benefits for current & retired players. Both sides got a little bit and we have football now, thankfully

Edited November 3, 2011 by chad72

[husker61]

No the owners are not stupid but this is what they negotiated - instead of getting 1 billion off a 9 billion pie and splitting the rest 60-40 in favor of the players from the remaining 8 billion, they did a flat 52-48 in favor of the owners. So, they got back something. By ensuring the cap floor is enforced, the players made sure that when the cap does increase, the 90% floor also increased. Plus increased benefits for current & retired players. Both sides got a little bit and we have football now, thankfully

so you are saying the players got 4.8 to the owners 4.2 billion in the old deal. the new deal is 4.32 players and 4.68 billion owners. you made my point of there being less money for players. thank you.

[chad72]

so you are saying the players got 4.8 to the owners 4.2 billion in the old deal. the new deal is 4.32 players and 4.68 billion owners. you made my point of there being less money for players. thank you.

Dude, you still don't get it, I already elaborated the cap floor resulting in an avg. of $10 mil. extra being spent by teams even though the salary cap went down. It seems like you want to see only what you want to see. Maybe you want me to do all the research for you, here it is, the new CBA key points:

http://www.nationalf...-agreement.html

Key points:

1. Players will receive 55 percent of national media revenue (this is the big slice of the pie called TV and media revenue which is what the owners lost in court regarding that $4 billion they were holding in the case of a lockout), 45 percent of NFL Ventures revenue, and 40 percent of local club revenue.
   
2. Player share must average at least 47 percent for the 10-year term of the agreement, so the 47% is a minimum, not a ceiling, that is a BIG difference. So if the league revenues go up, the player's share will also go up, so everyone makes money
   
3. League-wide commitment to cash spending of 99 percent of the cap in 2011 and 2012 (this one is in total)
   
4. Each club committed to cash spending of 89 percent of the cap from 2013-2016 and 2017-2020 (this is the cap floor being talked about)
   

Now, anyone can see that the 47% is just a start and not a hard ceiling on the revenue figures. Of course, there are clauses in there to help the overspenders like the Cowboys and Jets but obviously, that does not pertain to the Colts.

So, the bottomline is, if we don't pay our players market value, which is bound to increase based on recent contracts signed, someone else will.

Edited November 4, 2011 by chad72

[husker61]

this is really simple. do the owners get a bigger percentage of the revenue than they did before? more percentage of the money for owners means less money for the players than before the new cba.

[chad72]

The premise of my argument was to talk about the fact if salary money will increase or not thus raising salaries for free agents and as everyone knows, the salary is a portion of the revenue though a big portion but not all of the player's revenue.

Let me illustrate with an example. The salary cap was $127 mil. in 2010, and say WRs are getting paid X amt. of money, the salary cap is lowered to $120 mil. in the new CBA but the cap floor insists that they spend 89%, that means it is $106.8 mil. that is a min. that needs to be spent on payroll, unlike before, by all teams thus raising the salary avg. spent by teams though the salary cap went down. With several teams on the $120 mil. threshold like the Cowboys & Jets, the avg. came out to $109.9 with the cap at $120 mil. from the previous avg. of $100.1 when the cap was $127 mil.

Next, when league wide revenues increase (say from $9 bil. to $9.5 bil.), so will the 47% player's share. 47% of $9.5 bil. is greater than 47% of $9 bil., right? So, the salary cap increases, so will the cap floor that is the 89% portion. Factor in the rookies salary wage not being as stringent as before, there will be more money available to dole out to free agents if the league revenues continue to rise. That is the whole premise of the negotiations - if the league revenues rise, so will the player's absolute share and the salary cap and thus the players will have more money in terms of payroll as well. It is as simple as that. The lowering of the salary cap is a temporary reset button that will make both the players and owners profit with years of increasing revenue.

It is like saying "you players cannot win the salary game all the time, share the profit and the losses together with the owners" and that is what the premise is with the new CBA. My bets are on the revenues going up with a quality product that is the NFL and thus the contracts being doled out to free agents will go up as well.

Edited November 7, 2011 by chad72