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OldManP

"Is he the greatest quarterback of all-time or isn’t he?"

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Peyton never made the play that altered momentum and made the rest of the team hop on his back.  Elway should know this, the team needs to help Peyton much like the team helped him get his super bowl rings; not vice versa. Denver imploded spectacularly. Seattle played well.  End of story. Instead of cementing GOAT, they dismantled it.  Well done Denver. :(

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I'll still stick with Marino

Ditto.

 

Marino

Unitas

Elway

 

The most talented pure passers in history. Played in a time where they regularly got killed and their receivers got mauled, too.

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If he wins two more Super Bowl titles in Denver , perhaps he would be the GOAT. I'm not a Peyton hater , I think he's one of the greatest ever. I just think he has to round out his resume a bit more. I hear a lot about the NFL being a team game , and it is , as well as the Championships won. But the quarterback is expected to lead teams to Championships , especially the greatest ones. If you have a weaker defense that might let up the winning score, the greatest quarterbacks will milk the clock to prevent that from happening. The greatest ones make the big plays in the clutch, and don't throw critical interceptions . All of the great ones come up short once in a while, but when all is said and done, the Championship number is always on top, because that is everyone's ultimate goal. Peyton can take a big step here with a win. If he wins this one, and makes it to the Super Bowl in perhaps the next two years he plays, how happy will Irsay be for him then ? The Colts are like fans of all other teams now, having a tough out in Denver with Manning to get to your own Super Bowl. The Ravens were lucky last year, but usually Manning ended a couple of promising NFL seasons, especially in 2006.

You can only "milk the clock" so much.  eventually you are going to score.  Sure if they could have it the entire 15 minutes it wouldnt be a problem.  But letting up a score with less than a minute is far from the QB's fault.  Especially if they got it at the 5+ minute mark.  I would say eating 5 minutes off the clock to make up 80 yards is pretty good.  But what do i know...theres excuses for everything and everyone for every argument it seems.

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must have been a Bronco

Irsay is the clear winner tonight. Like I said, a Seattle win is gold to him. This loss will not propel him past Brady , Montana, or Unitas. Manning is a great guy , but it's going to be hard to come off a one sided loss like this one so late in his career.

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Irsay is the clear winner tonight. Like I said, a Seattle win is gold to him. This loss will not propel him past Brady , Montana, or Unitas. Manning is a great guy , but it's going to be hard to come off a one sided loss like this one so late in his career.

I don't think a win would have propelled him either as those Qbs have better post-season resumes. That being said, the nature of this loss is tough. It will take some time to digest and put into perspective. It also puts him back below .500 which is tough as well.

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Seattle was the better team tonight.  By a long shot.

I don't blame Manning entirely, but his case for GOAT should be laid to rest now. He had an awful game on the biggest stage.

I do believe he should be considered ahead of Brady though.

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Seattle was the better team tonight.  By a long shot.

I don't blame Manning entirely, but his case for GOAT should be laid to rest now. He had an awful game on the biggest stage.

I do believe he should be considered ahead of Brady though.

Yes, not the GOAT. And not ahead of Montana, Brady or Elway. Not sure where to rank him to be honest.  

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My opinion is that this man is the greatest of all time, a 4x champion (never a loser), and he nearly took two teams to the Super Bowl... If it wasn't for those pesky Buffalo Bills.
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Here is what we found out last night. Peyton is a top 5 quarterback , but not the GOAT. He is not in the Unitas or Montana category. This lopsided loss was catastrophic to his legacy.

As I pointed out , the Seattle win was a huge win for Jim Irsay , as Denver became the new Indianapolis Colts , an offensive machine led by Manning , that usually came up short in the big game. Denver looks finished, and I don't think they will recover from this game. Now, for Irsay to win big, he can't afford to not put a total team around Luck , which he and Polian failed to do around Manning.

Seattle , with it's young players , looks poised to be in contention for years to come. SF will contest . I think the only AFC teams that have a chance next year are the Colts, if they can shore up the defense , or New England and Baltimore, if they can do some rebuilding. The defense has caught up to some of the offensive rules changes , and defense wins Championships. You will have to have a strong running game , a quarterback who doesn't create turnovers , and a dominant defense to beat Seattle or SF next year.

The last thing the Colts want to turn into with Luck , is a new version of the Manning led offensive type teams. Irsay and Grigson are on the right track of where they want the team to be, but the question is if they can draft or sign the right players to fulfill the philosophy .

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Manning is by far the better qb.

Numbers don't lie

 

I find these posts to be amusing.  Numbers are a product of offensive talent and execution.  It is not Manning that is blocking defenders, running routes and catching passes.   They loaded him up with an arsenal of weapons and he broke the records and got crazy stats.  Same thing happened to Brady in 07, they stacked the team with offensive weapons and he broke records.

 

QBs dont do it themselves, they have to have great teammates around them and that is something Manning has had his ENTIRE career with an abundance of Hall of Fame and 1st round talent.

 

Numbers are just part of the story and fun to look at, but you cannot simply give a single player all the credit for putting up miraculous numbers.  If you put an amazingly talented QB on an offense with other amazingly talented players, you get lots and lots of high stats.  

 

Playing in a dome for the majority of his career on fast astro turf with hall of famers like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Marshal Faulk and tons of outstanding talent that were all drafted in the 1st round certainly helps contribute to higher statistics.  I don't know how anyone could refute that statement.

 

Its absurd to point to their statistics as the bench mark for one being "clearly" the better QB.  Manning was on an insane offense this year with more weapons than almost any defense could ever hope to match up against.  That will obviously result in higher numbers than Brady's situation where he had Hernandez, Gronk and Welker all gone from the previous year and replaced with a bunch of no name tight ends that no one else wanted from free agency, 3 rookie WRs and their top FA signing nursing a torn groin for about half the year.    

 

I wonder how Russel Wilson feels right now about statistics.

 

It is not rocket science. 

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Doesn't change a thing in my opinion and just proves my point from post #52 - Defense wins championships.

 

Seattle played a good game and deserves all the credit for the win.  

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I hate to say it but, in the back of my head, I just knew Peyton wasn't gonna win this game. We, as Colts fans and the citizens of Indy, are forever indebted to him for his contributions to the franchise, the community and economy of the city of indianapolis as a whole...That being said, he's just not wired for big games. I never truly viewed him as the GOAT (I felt he was in the discussion) but this pretty much seals it, in my book. He's a spectacular regular season QB, but he's just not a big game winner. That automatically eliminates him from GOAT consideration, in my opinion

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What is lost in this is perspective. Peyton, for all his regular season accomplishments, has only around a .500-.600 record against top 5 Ds he has played during the regular season. So, when he wins 1 out of 2 games in the playoffs, or 2 out of 3 during a decent streak, people should not be surprised.

 

Look at the Seahawks and what they have done to pocket passers. They crushed Brees and Peyton and the only one that gave them issues was Luck, and Kaepernick (who made more mistakes than Luck did). Pocket passers have less of a shot to beat that D, imo.

 

Manning's weakness are below:

1. Weaker arm that will be exposed if he has to throw off his back foot or have to gun it inside tighter windows against aggressive and speedier Ds like the Seahawks. (Brady has that and that is why he is more competitive vs better Ds)

2. Can't extend the play as much like a Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers or even Andrew Luck to find a guy who gets open after the first few seconds. Neither Peyton nor Brady do this as well.

3. Won't be able to take off and run on a 4th & 2 or 3rd & 3 to get you that critical first down. Won't do QB sneaks as often. (Brady does more QB sneaks for a pocket passer)


Strengths: Cerebral aspect off the charts

However, cerebral aspects can only help you if your opponent does not have the horses to line up and match up with you for 60 minutes. Intangibles come in to play more when stalemates happen vs elite teams. No matter who it is - Montana, Bradshaw, Brady, Big Ben, Elway or Eli, winning multiple rings requires ample help from the defensive side of the ball. A model heavily relying on an offense to score in the high 20s and low 30s will more often fall short vs elite defensive units.

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Personally I just want the GOAT talk to be laid to rest, for all quarterbacks. It's a silly, nonsensical notion to slap that title on one player and to expect/hope that the rest of the football world will love your guy just as much as you do. There's very little chance that a consensus choice will ever be made. It's something that various fans do for reasons I can't really understand. Who cares? Form your own opinion and be done with it, there is nothing else to it. 

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Personally I just want the GOAT talk to be laid to rest, for all quarterbacks. It's a silly, nonsensical notion to slap that title on one player and to expect/hope that the rest of the football world will love your guy just as much as you do. There's very little chance that a consensus choice will ever be made. It's something that various fans do for reasons I can't really understand. Who cares? Form your own opinion and be done with it, there is nothing else to it. 

Certainly, you do not see corresponding arguments about baseball players.  But "it" (who is the "GOAT") seems to be a hot topic on this forum.  Has been for years. My bet is in a few years, if Luck continues to develop and especially should he win a Super Bowl, the same fans who now proclaim Manning the "GOAT" will proclaim Luck his successor.  And they'll continue to hate anyone whom they perceive as a threat to Luck's "GOATness".

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True Blue...

 

but even cherry picking that one stat..TD passes.....

 

(In Unitas'  days...you ran the ball at the goal line...)...Johnny U wanst toop 5..he was No.1

 

and, even with that,   he held the consecutive game TD record that Drew Brees broke last year

 

.....You are righty..no one has been as prolific for as long as Peyton....but Johnny U was Manning and Brady rolled into one

Yeah guys Johnny u was so great despite not even playing the whole Super Bowl season leading up to sb 3 and still lost it, losing nfl championship game, and throwing 2 picks in sb vs cowboys and being knocked out at half time. Wow he's done so much more than manning..

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Certainly, you do not see corresponding arguments about baseball players.  But "it" (who is the "GOAT") seems to be a hot topic on this forum.  Has been for years. My bet is in a few years, if Luck continues to develop and especially should he win a Super Bowl, the same fans who now proclaim Manning the "GOAT" will proclaim Luck his successor.  And they'll continue to hate anyone whom they perceive as a threat to Luck's "GOATness".

 

For sure, it's been something people have talked about here for a while, and on earlier incarnations of this forum. I think Manning's most hardcore fans push it because of the criticisms against Peyton (and I mean no disrespect by that). 

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You are in the minority on that one. One Super Bowl win in 15 seasons will not make you the GOAT. Multiple Super Bowl wins is what he needs. It is clearly a must. The greatest quarterbacks are expected to lead teams to Championships.

Yeah bud Unitas was out the whole sb 3 season and lost once inserted, lost nfl championships pre sb, and in the sb game vs the cowboys threw 2 picks and was knocked out of the game by half time. Wow what a contributor Peyton could never eclipse that!

You guys are dreaming if you think the 6 foot 150 lb Unitas could stack up against manning in today's nfl with 300 pound linemen hitting at sub 4.9 speed. Johnny u would be Johnny pancake and they would have to scrape him off the turf with a spatchula

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Playing in a dome for the majority of his career on fast astro turf with hall of famers like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Marshal Faulk and tons of outstanding talent that were all drafted in the 1st round certainly helps contribute to higher statistics.  I don't know how anyone could refute that statement.

 

He remained just as productive his first year playing outside a dome as he usually did while with Indy. This was after 4 neck surgeries and a depleted arm.

Then, the following season, he and the O smashed all the offensive records. I'd say that pretty much puts the dome thing to bed.

 

Weapon wise I don't think Decker, WW, OJ and DT are better than Harrison, Wayne, Stokely and Edge as a whole. Manning was obviously a better passer back then, too.

 

The Colts' O imo was more talented, our special teams and defense just flat out sucked. So do Denver's, but not quite as badly.

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He remained just as productive his first year playing outside a dome as he usually did while with Indy. This was after 4 neck surgeries and a depleted arm.

Then, the following season, he and the O smashed all the offensive records.

 

I'd say that pretty much puts the dome thing to bed.

That safety was one of the few times Manning didn't have it his way regarding crowd noise.  The RCA dome was terribly unfair to visiting teams, as is Seattle's 12th man.  There should be a regulation to control that.  It's as bad as throwing stuff on the field, because it definitely affects the outcome.

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That safety was one of the few times Manning didn't have it his way regarding crowd noise.  The RCA dome was terribly unfair to visiting teams, as is Seattle's 12th man.  There should be a regulation to control that.  It's as bad as throwing stuff on the field, because it definitely affects the outcome.

RCA Dome sure.

LOS not so much.

 

He still put up great numbers at LOS as the O talent gradually depleted. Denver isn't deafening, either.

 

 

Places like the RCA Dome and Seattle are/were indeed absurd levels of noise.

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RCA Dome sure.

LOS not so much.

 

He still put up great numbers at LOS as the O talent gradually depleted. Denver isn't deafening, either.

 

 

Places like the RCA Dome and Seattle are/were indeed absurd levels of noise.

His team had the advantage at RCA Dome, last night he was on the other side of it. 

 

How is it fair that one team cannot hear signals but the other can quiet the crowd?  Why not let the fans "participate" by pelting opposing players with thrown objects? 

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It'll never happen but I, for one, would love to see the Super Bowl permanently moved so that the team with the best overall record in the NFL gets to play at home. (Regardless of where "home" is.) I know it's impractical/impossible due to logistics and whatnot, but it's the only championship in all sports that's played on a neutral field. And it's never really neutral. I saw lots of orange last night but clearly the Seattle fans dominated the building. 

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Why not let the fans "participate" by pelting opposing players with thrown objects? 

Well, someone in Seattle threw popcorn at NaVorro Bowman as he was carted off the field after he was injured and  screwed out of a fumble recovery. Does that count?

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Personally I just want the GOAT talk to be laid to rest, for all quarterbacks. It's a silly, nonsensical notion to slap that title on one player and to expect/hope that the rest of the football world will love your guy just as much as you do. There's very little chance that a consensus choice will ever be made. It's something that various fans do for reasons I can't really understand. Who cares? Form your own opinion and be done with it, there is nothing else to it. 

 

Not that I was rooting for Manning to lose or anything ( I just watch the games for what they are) but this at least puts nails in the GOAT coffin that has never existed anyway ;)

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