Belichick calls out Welker for hit on Talib

[Dustin]

Wonder what Irsay is thinking today?

 

"How did we lose to that joke of a team?"

[That Guy]

                         Foul

                     Yes     No

                    ----------------

Dirty     Yes  l        l         l

                    ----------------

            No   l    X    l        l

                   -----------------

[amfootball]

"How did we lose to that joke of a team?"

By 21 no less ...

[jvan1973]

Probably Star Wars numbers + ring.

I doubt it. But nice try trying to deflect your flip flopping comments on this thread. oh and your lack of knowledge on what is and isn't a low hit

[amfootball]

I doubt it. But nice try trying to deflect your flip flopping comments on this thread. oh and your lack of knowledge on what is and isn't a low hit

ha. Just joking. You guys always do make me laugh even on a lousy Monday after a loss. And we both know Irsay is at Burger King right now on twitter.

[Fx Stryker]

Hey you know the difference between Welker and Amendola.

Welker caught a pass yesterday. Great replacement there New England.

[JerodMayo51]

What did he say about the Edelman hit on DRC the series before?

 

 

Edelman's hit was after the receiver had caught the ball and he hit him cleanly (offensive PI called on play against Hooman, putting pats out of field goal range).  

 

End Result:

OPI Penalty on Hooman (not edelman)

Pats get backed up out of FG range

DRC left the game for like 3 snaps and came back in.

 

Welker hit Talib before the ball had made it to Demarius Thomas (offensive pass interference, no call) and it was low and dirty.  He made no attempt to get open, his sole intention was to go after Talib and hit him low on an illegal pick play.

 

End Result:

No penalty

1st down

Patriots best defensive player (all-pro) is out for the rest of the game with injury.

Demarius Thomas proceeds to dominate all the mismatched DBs that try to take Talib's place.

 

A huge part of the Pats game plan revolved around Talib singling up on D. Thomas, who he matches up perfectly against.  Talib can dominate bigger, physical WRs but struggles more with smaller, faster receivers (S. Smith, TY Hilton, etc).  D. Thomas was as quiet as a mouse until that injury.. literally the very next play Manning went to him on a 3rd and long and completed it.

 

It looked pretty bad when you watch the play.  Welker made zero attempt to get open or run a route, he went straight for Talib and hit him low while the ball was in the air.  

 

That injury basically shifted all the DBs around and it was just a total mismatch across the board on all 4 of the Broncos weapons at that point.  It was like a late christmas present, just total mismatches across the board and he had a field day.  Combine that with the inability to get any pressure at all through Denver's insane offensive line, and the final results are what you saw happen yesterday.  I'm not even sure if Manning had a single grass stain on his jersey when that game was over, his protection was unbelievable and they also blew giant holes open in the running game all day long as well.

[Le Neon]

Edelman's hit was after the receiver had caught the ball and he hit him cleanly (offensive PI called on play against Hooman, putting pats out of field goal range).

End Result:

OPI Penalty on Hooman (not edelman)

Pats get backed up out of FG range

DRC left the game for like 3 snaps and came back in.

Welker hit Talib before the ball had made it to Demarius Thomas (offensive pass interference, no call) and it was low and dirty. He made no attempt to get open, his sole intention was to go after Talib and hit him low on an illegal pick play.

End Result:

No penalty

1st down

Patriots best defensive player (all-pro) is out for the rest of the game with injury.

Demarius Thomas proceeds to dominate all the mismatched DBs that try to take Talib's place.

A huge part of the Pats game plan revolved around Talib singling up on D. Thomas, who he matches up perfectly against. Talib can dominate bigger, physical WRs but struggles more with smaller, faster receivers (S. Smith, TY Hilton, etc). D. Thomas was as quiet as a mouse until that injury.. literally the very next play Manning went to him on a 3rd and long and completed it.

It looked pretty bad when you watch the play. Welker made zero attempt to get open or run a route, he went straight for Talib and hit him low while the ball was in the air.

That injury basically shifted all the DBs around and it was just a total mismatch across the board on all 4 of the Broncos weapons at that point. It was like a late christmas present, just total mismatches across the board and he had a field day. Combine that with the inability to get any pressure at all through Denver's insane offensive line, and the final results are what you saw happen yesterday. I'm not even sure if Manning had a single grass stain on his jersey when that game was over, his protection was unbelievable and they also blew giant holes open in the running game all day long as well.

1. Thomas dropped the pass anyway, not a first down.

2. Yes it could have been called pi, but it was the very definition of a bang bang play. Talib gets hit milliseconds before Thomas flubs the catch. You rarely see those called.

[Kyle]

He bent down and hit Talib at just below the waist which injured his knee from being hit from the blind side.

you sound like a little baby in this thread.  It looks like the hit almost shoulder to shoulder and Talib actually put Welker down...  It, in no way, shape, or form was a dirty play.  You seriously need to learn to see the whole picture on things.  You put your blinders up on EVERY issue and only see what you want to see.  I'm not sure who made worse comments here,  you or baby Bill.  

 

At least there is one thing you can't argue with now.  Peyton > Tom,  and it's really not even close.

[Yehoodi]

Good post, but I disagree with the final paragraph.  In a pick play, the purpose of the receiver is actually to impede the defender.  It goes against fundamentals, but one receiver is sacrificed for the play.

 

yes but pick plays do not happen at full speed . . . and just like the reverse of a DB on a WR on illegal contact and PI, you job is to avoid the WR not to hit him . . . the trouble I have with Welker is was not like he ran straight and contact luckily happened . . . he ran towards Talib and even adjusted, albeit not great, his route into the path of Talib . . . had he stopped and Talib runs into him and thus we are left half the contact speed, had Thomas caught the ball and had made 5 steps and went behind Welker who blocks talib, I don't have a problem . . .  

 

I just have a problem with a guy running at speed at an not expecting player, and more critically who he knows does not see him, and instead taking precautions for your fellow brother on the field and slow down and block him resulting with the half contact speed (kind of like Edelman wink wink), he decides to continue into Talib . . . it comes down to Welker had time to take evasive action and still make the block and he chose not too . . .  

 

it is no different then DB coming after a "defenseless" WR , whether the ball is caught or not . . .outwardly speaking what is wrong with a DB following through on his momentum and hit a WR, especially if in that off chance (0.001%) the WR might of otherwise hold on to the ball . .. what is wrong with a 350 lb lineman falling on top of a QB and driving him into the turf, after all it is a "sack". . . what is "wrong" with these things is that the player can take evasive action to avoid a harsh contact . . . and DB can try to let up and avoid the WR, a lineman can tackle and fall to the side and both lineman and QB land on the ground with the linemen to his side and not on top of him . . . a player can avoiding going at the knees of an engaged lineman, and on and on  . . . 

 

. . . and what is the common theme in all of this . . . the common theme in all of the above and everything that I have said, and perhaps will stop here as this is taking more time than I wanted this morning, is the fact the player has two choices when coming towards his fellow brethren on the field . . . he can continue at speed which will result in a harsh collision (lineman following though on a sack, a DB following through on a pass break up, or a RB following through on a low chip block, WR running at speed in a designed pick play) or he can let up to avoid a harsh collision (lineman follows through on a sack by landing by the side, a DB lets up and tries to avoid the hit on a incomplete pass, a RB does not make a low block, or a WR stops and allows the DB to come to him) . . .  

 

Welker choose the former and not the latter, and that is what I have problem . . . and all of you have indicated it was a designed pick play, fair enough, but by admitting this you have now eliminated any "accidental 'I was just running my route' defense" for Welker,  As such Welker had FULL knowledge at the START of the play what his job was, was a FULL 7-10 steps from Talib when he made his cut  and ran towards him with the FULL knowledge of his job and what he was supposed to do, and instead of letting up and stop and block Talib as he approach he decided to continue and make a block at full speed on an non expecting player . . .

 

it was not any kind of accidental contact as Welker knew full what his job was coming out of the huddle, saw the designated target a full 10 yards in front of him and instead of letting up to make a block, lined him up and ran full speed into him . . . if you can not see that this was something that was not kind of things ones does to his brethren then I can not help you . . . otherwise then you would support a DB "breaking up a pass" by clocking a WR, a lineman making a sack by landing on a QB and so on . . . it on of a person see something in front of them, knows what is job is, and decides not to take the lesser of two evils . . . that is my point . . .

[GoPats]

Welker's hit on Talib wasn't a penalty. Watching it again today, I don't see anything illegal about it. If he hit him before the ball got to Thomas that's one thing, but he didn't. Belichick is (surprisingly) conveying his frustration and the more time that passes the more I think he really dislikes Welker. I'll be very surprised if the league does anything, including a fine. 

 

It was, quite frankly, Welker's biggest contribution to Denver's win. He wasn't much of a factor but this was huge. They couldn't cover Thomas without Talib and the domino effect went into play after that. 

 

Have to say though, it's just like the NFL to allow that type of play while constantly modifying and "emphasizing" rules designed to protect "defenseless" receivers. I miss the days of the NFL when teams could actually play defense. 

[Yehoodi]

i don't disagree it should have been a PI

 

it was close, I can see them calling it, especially after calling it on Homan . . . but at the same time it was kind of bang bang . . . and sometimes the tied with go with the non call . . . I was not too bother by the non call . .. perhaps in light of the Homan call was, but I would of been fine if both were not called

[Mameluc]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s181/matou98/talib-injury-a_zpsc4ce2cd5.gif

 

 

---> no idea how to make the giff appear...but anyways click on it...i dont see mal intent.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

I've watched it now at least 50 times. It was definitely a pick, but not in the least dirty and it did not look like there was any intent to hurt. And if you were going to take someone out, why would you send out the man that has only played two games since he sustained a second concussion this season? Doesn't add up unless you are a Pats fan searching for excuses.

[GoColts8818]

I thought it was next man up? Sour grapes IMO.

[Yehoodi]

It's Talib s own fault. As much tape as they watch, how he didn't expect a pick on that route from that formation is the most shocking thing about the play. He should have expected it.

 

I do not want to rewrite all of my post and would kindly as you to read my prior ones for more depth on my response . . . but bottom line for me Talib is not expecting to be hit at speed, especially when the ball had not been thrown . . . and it certainly do not expect to him to get a hit when the ball is like 3 feet from the WR . . . it is was a bang bang play and perhaps not a penalty . . . as just as there a protection around a WR to not get clocked moments after the ball goes through is hands . . . so should a DB not expect to get blindsided as the ball goes into the hands of a WR . . .

 

its an issue of the viciousness of the contact that could have been avoided and happening splits seconds after some one is "free" game . . . that is the point . . .

[Yehoodi]

Hey you know the difference between Welker and Amendola. Welker caught a pass yesterday. Great replacement there New England.

 

thanks for the humor . .  . Edelman did well for us tho . . . but Amendola needs some work . . . we will see how things turn out . . .

[GoColts8818]

Wonder what Irsay is thinking today?

what on earth does that have to do with this thread other than a bad attempt to get Colts fans worked up?

[Fx Stryker]

thanks for the humor . . . Edelman did well for us tho . . . but Amendola needs some work . . . we will see how things turn out . . .

Just want to point out that in no way are you the target of the jokes. You just happen to cheer for the same team as the others.

[dw49]

Right.

 

If it was just a pick play then Bill would have not said boo as the Pats run picks all the time as do most teams in the league. There was intent to injure. Big difference.

 

 

In post 7 you say ...."I really don't think either play was designed "to take" out anyone. Both were pick plays but Welker's was a worse hit and should have penalized for PI."

 

 

 

Did you change your mind after some of your buddie's posts ?

[Yehoodi]

I've watched it now at least 50 times. It was definitely a pick, but not in the least dirty and it did not look like there was any intent to hurt. And if you were going to take someone out, why would you send out the man that has only played two games since he sustained a second concussion this season? Doesn't add up unless you are a Pats fan searching for excuses.

 

it add up when you don't hit the guy with your head but with your body . . . don't have time to redraft the above . .. but I am not buying "why would they use there best players" excuse . . . it was an unnecessary contact by Welker and BB knows it and when an unnecessary contact causes one of you key players to get injured, the issues does not lie in the determination of intent to injure, but the later context is that one should not do what is unnecessary and when they do and it has drastic results, then people are going to get upset when one gets hurt on something that was unnecessary and could of been avoided . . .  

[Poster X]

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Finally he got beat at his own game... and Patriot fans are crying foul, and it is not surprising. The amount of press making excuses is sickning too.

[dw49]

it add up when you don't hit the guy with your head but with your body . . . don't have time to redraft the above . .. but I am not buying "why would they use there best players" excuse . . . it was an unnecessary contact by Welker and BB knows it and when an unnecessary contact causes one of you key players to get injured, the issues does not lie in the determination of intent to injure, but the later context is that one should not do what is unnecessary and when they do and it has drastic results, then people are going to get upset when one gets hurt on something that was unnecessary and could of been avoided . . .  

 

 

Lot's of sour grapes

[GoColts8818]

No comments whatsoever on his twitter since January 14th, he has shut it off, wisely so.

today he wished his followers a happy Monday.

[Yehoodi]

Just want to point out that in no way are you the target of the jokes. You just happen to cheer for the same team as the others.

 

I know that why I faved your post . . . I thought it was funny and broke up the back and forth here in this thread . . . good one Fx . . .

[No 1 Manning Fan]

So you are saying if that exact same play happened vs the Colts you would have been fine with it?

It was a foul. It looked like it was times so that Welker pops him with a block just as Thomas makes a catch, allowing Thomas to run after the catch for perhaps a big gain had he made the catch. But he got there early and it should have been pass interference. However, it did not look like he was trying to injure him. He did not target his head and neck area nor his knees. It was a hit to the midsection.

[Yehoodi]

Lot's of sour grapes

 

sour grapes . . . just wait to I get to the officiating . . . I am just one my third cup of coffee . . . I am just getting warmed up here . . .

 

on the serious side . . . I think welker could having taken the lesser road and if injured occurred then that is football . . .

[dw49]

sour grapes . . . just wait to I get to the officiating . . . I am just one my third cup of coffee . . . I am just getting warmed up here . . .

 

on the serious side . . . I think welker could having taken the lesser road and if injured occurred then that is football . . .

 

 

 

I don't blame you a bit. It was a ridiculous hit . And I'm still * over the zebras eating their whistle on those two penalties with the Colts down 29-22... so I understand the sour grapes thing very well.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

it add up when you don't hit the guy with your head but with your body . . . don't have time to redraft the above . .. but I am not buying "why would they use there best players" excuse . . . it was an unnecessary contact by Welker and BB knows it and when an unnecessary contact causes one of you key players to get injured, the issues does not lie in the determination of intent to injure, but the later context is that one should not do what is unnecessary and when they do and it has drastic results, then people are going to get upset when one gets hurt on something that was unnecessary and could of been avoided . . .

It was a foul. I think it was pass interference. Bill is making it out to be more. The league should not step in if there was no a dirty hit, and there wasn't. That's all I'm saying. And you don't kamikaze with someone who has just come back from a head injury.

[That Guy]

yes but pick plays do not happen at full speed . . . and just like the reverse of a DB on a WR on illegal contact and PI, you job is to avoid the WR not to hit him . . . the trouble I have with Welker is was not like he ran straight and contact luckily happened . . . he ran towards Talib and even adjusted, albeit not great, his route into the path of Talib . . . had he stopped and Talib runs into him and thus we are left half the contact speed, had Thomas caught the ball and had made 5 steps and went behind Welker who blocks talib, I don't have a problem . . .  

 

I just have a problem with a guy running at speed at an not expecting player, and more critically who he knows does not see him, and instead taking precautions for your fellow brother on the field and slow down and block him resulting with the half contact speed (kind of like Edelman wink wink), he decides to continue into Talib . . . it comes down to Welker had time to take evasive action and still make the block and he chose not too . . .  

 

it is no different then DB coming after a "defenseless" WR , whether the ball is caught or not . . .outwardly speaking what is wrong with a DB following through on his momentum and hit a WR, especially if in that off chance (0.001%) the WR might of otherwise hold on to the ball . .. what is wrong with a 350 lb lineman falling on top of a QB and driving him into the turf, after all it is a "sack". . . what is "wrong" with these things is that the player can take evasive action to avoid a harsh contact . . . and DB can try to let up and avoid the WR, a lineman can tackle and fall to the side and both lineman and QB land on the ground with the linemen to his side and not on top of him . . . a player can avoiding going at the knees of an engaged lineman, and on and on  . . . 

 

. . . and what is the common theme in all of this . . . the common theme in all of the above and everything that I have said, and perhaps will stop here as this is taking more time than I wanted this morning, is the fact the player has two choices when coming towards his fellow brethren on the field . . . he can continue at speed which will result in a harsh collision (lineman following though on a sack, a DB following through on a pass break up, or a RB following through on a low chip block, WR running at speed in a designed pick play) or he can let up to avoid a harsh collision (lineman follows through on a sack by landing by the side, a DB lets up and tries to avoid the hit on a incomplete pass, a RB does not make a low block, or a WR stops and allows the DB to come to him) . . .  

 

Welker choose the former and not the latter, and that is what I have problem . . . and all of you have indicated it was a designed pick play, fair enough, but by admitting this you have now eliminated any "accidental 'I was just running my route' defense" for Welker,  As such Welker had FULL knowledge at the START of the play what his job was, was a FULL 7-10 steps from Talib when he made his cut  and ran towards him with the FULL knowledge of his job and what he was supposed to do, and instead of letting up and stop and block Talib as he approach he decided to continue and make a block at full speed on an non expecting player . . .

 

it was not any kind of accidental contact as Welker knew full what his job was coming out of the huddle, saw the designated target a full 10 yards in front of him and instead of letting up to make a block, lined him up and ran full speed into him . . . if you can not see that this was something that was not kind of things ones does to his brethren then I can not help you . . . otherwise then you would support a DB "breaking up a pass" by clocking a WR, a lineman making a sack by landing on a QB and so on . . . it on of a person see something in front of them, knows what is job is, and decides not to take the lesser of two evils . . . that is my point . . .

What about the way of thinking that "it's win or go home, so always go full speed?"  If Welker had let up, and Talib had plowed through him to make a tackle (I know the pass was dropped, this is hypothetical), people would have questioned his commitment and his effort.

[Yehoodi]

Welker's hit on Talib wasn't a penalty. Watching it again today, I don't see anything illegal about it. If he hit him before the ball got to Thomas that's one thing, but he didn't. Belichick is (surprisingly) conveying his frustration and the more time that passes the more I think he really dislikes Welker. I'll be very surprised if the league does anything, including a fine. 

 

It was, quite frankly, Welker's biggest contribution to Denver's win. He wasn't much of a factor but this was huge. They couldn't cover Thomas without Talib and the domino effect went into play after that. 

 

Have to say though, it's just like the NFL to allow that type of play while constantly modifying and "emphasizing" rules designed to protect "defenseless" receivers. I miss the days of the NFL when teams could actually play defense. 

 

yes BB was mad and I think justifiably so . . . but it is kind of out of character for him to be so open . . . perhaps its a Welker/BB thing . . . but I don't mind him speaking his thoughts . . . for the most part they keep this stuff in, but I don't blame him for talking and we see many other teams and coaches do . . .

 

on a larger note, one wonders if anything will come out of this, perhaps it might, and perhaps a side reason for BB voicing his too cents . . ,

 

we know that blindside contact has been prohibited on different areas to date . . . one wonders if a blind side pick will be soon . . . perhaps something written along the lines of . . . "it is illegal to make contact to a defensiveless defender regardless of the ball if held by the QB, in the air or just caught by a defender . . " as a penalty . . .

[Yehoodi]

It was a foul. I think it was pass interference. Bill is making it out to be more. The league should not step in if there was no a dirty hit, and there wasn't. That's all I'm saying. And you don't kamikaze with someone who has just come back from a head injury.

I hear yah, but he hit him with his body . . .and also if he is afraid of concussion, then all the more reason to stop and let talib come to him . . . as for PI I do not mind it being called PI . . . but at the same time it was kind of bang bang so I can see the flag not coming out too . . .

[Yehoodi]

What about the way of thinking that "it's win or go home, so always go full speed?"  If Welker had let up, and Talib had plowed through him to make a tackle (I know the pass was dropped, this is hypothetical), people would have questioned his commitment and his effort.

 

I hear yah and it is a dicey situation . . . but I have seen many times a player making a block as a player is coming to him . . . I did not mean to say that Welker should of been totally flat footed, but he could of made a block on Talib without too much difficulty, chipping him or what ever . . .  

[Moose Of Woe]

Sounds like Welker is in BB's head. No pun intended.

 

It was borderline PI - the hit occurred right as the ball got to Thomas which was promptly dropped anyway.

Now you want to talk blatant PI? How about Thomas being mauled on what should have been a TD reception all the way into the end zone. No complaints there, eh?

 

Was it dirty? No dirtier than what Edelman did to DRC. The only difference is one has a helmet like The Great Gazoo. Turnabout is fair play.

[Susie Q]

Well I wondered what excuses would come from the Pats if they lost the game.   Bill just got out coached and Brady got out played and now the Broncos are going to the Super Bowl while Bill and Tom get to watch on TV. I wouldn't have posted this but after hearing Bill complain and calling it dirty           I couldn't contain myself it brought out the worst in me. :heh:

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

ok.

Lol how come Brady's accuracy was crap yesterday but against us it was spot on? 

 

If your gonna lose couldn't you just lose to us.?

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Not as salty as you guys were last week .... not by a mile.

aaaaaaand there it is folks 

[Kyle]

 is the fact the player has two choices when coming towards his fellow brethren on the field . . . he can continue at speed which will result in a harsh collision or he can let up to avoid a harsh collision.

 

Welker choose the former and not the latter, and that is what I have problem . . . 

 

ok.... so you are saying when a WR is running full speed across the middle of the field and the DB covering him gets in the way, the WR should slow down ???   No, 100% wrong.  It was a designed pick play (is technically illegal but every team runs it and it is rarely called).  Welker did his job.  He ran directly at him to make Talib go over the top of him.  Talib chose to stay in the path.  I feel he even saw it coming and tried to lower a shoulder on Welker.   It was a play that happens in almost every game.  If it was any other CB they would have just shook it off but Talib was not 100% and re-aggravated his injury.  It was just a football play and you, AM, Bill, and every other Pats fan need to stop making excuses.  You lost to the better team and QB.

[That Guy]

I hear yah and it is a dicey situation . . . but I have seen many times a player making a block as a player is coming to him . . . I did not mean to say that Welker should of been totally flat footed, but he could of made a block on Talib without too much difficulty, chipping him or what ever . . .  

 

I agree, but I understand that Welker had reasons for hitting Talib without injuring him.  I think the injury was just an unfortunate result of Talib's previous injury meeting Welker's competitive nature.  The hit may have been harder than necessary, but the injury was still unintentional.

[That Guy]

Lol how come Brady's accuracy was crap yesterday but against us it was spot on? 

 

If your gonna lose couldn't you just lose to us.?

Brady did worse against us than he did the Broncos.  The difference is the Broncos were able to stop the run. 

What I want to know is: "Why couldn't Blount have had five rushes for six yards against us!"