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Peyton gets the TD record [Merge]


lance.acres

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I honestly don't see how much more the man can do to secure his legacy as the best ever.  He will have all of the significant career quarterback records.   He will have at least 5 MVPs (and 3 MVP runner ups).   A couple more championships wouldn't hurt obviously but how is it his fault that he has hardly ever had a defense like Montana, Bradshaw, or Brady did?   He has consistently dragged horribly flawed teams to 13 win seasons for over a decade.  He joined a team that had never won 10 games in 21 years and he turned them into a team which only failed to do so 3 times in his 13 years with them (one as a rookie and one when he never played a down).   He holds the record for 4th quarter comebacks including some of the most unlikely ones in league history.  He changed the way the position is played and defined it for the current generation of young talent.

 

If he isn't the best ever then what more could he possibly do?

 

Peyton has all these regular season offensive numbers due to his own selfishness.  His regular season numbers did NOT drive his team to multiple super bowl victories.  With possibly 5 MVP's and the best stats all time he's only won one SB?  Right now Peyton and Marino are the best regular season QB's of all time.

 

As I posted on another thread...

 

Peyton's teams through out his career were based on trying to out score the other team.  Broncos' defense is not what's going to get the Broncos to the super bowl.  It's their offense.  Peyton would NEVER play on a team like the 49ers, Ravens, Seahawks where the coaching staff focuses on team play and defense.  Peyton went to Denver because Elway promised Peyton he could have full 100% control of the entire offense and they would load him up with offense. I guarantee you Peyton begs the GM and coach to bring in as many offensive weapons as possible where ever he goes and puts pressure on the front office to have to put more emphasis on the offense instead of the defense.  Hard to spend big money on your defense under a salary cap when your QB is always in your office begging you to spend more money on offense.  Through out Peyton's career I bet you he's always had it his way.  The owners and coaches gave him what he wanted.   Colts fans act like the Colts' franchise had no idea how to build a defense or that Dungy didn't know how to coach a defense.  lol  There's something called a "SALARY CAP" and they invested too much for Peyton's needs and wants instead of building a real "TEAM".

 

 

The Broncos/Texans score yesterday can be scrutinized against the Broncos.  That game was close for 90% of the game, the Broncos did nothing till the 4th quarter.

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Congratulations to Manning on taking back the TD record... he's had one of most impressive seasons a QB has had, and deserves the kudos!

 

I also thought his post-game comments on it were spot on and very classy. Lots of credit to his teammates and I chuckled when he said (both on the field and in his presser, I believe), "Tom will probably go out and break it next year." (I don't think it'll be Brady and I don't think it'll be 2014, but I'd be surprised if this one lasts for very long. Still, sincerest congrats from this rival fan!)

 

Anyway, another great chapter in an era of football we're lucky to witness. 

 

Let's see how things play out this last week and on to the playoffs! 

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FANTASTIC....   :headspin:  :banana:

 

Thanks for Starting the Thread, people.  I was too busy :cheer:  to bother Posting....   ;)

 

Congrats Peyton...!!!!!!

 

Thought of you yesterday! If I'd had a beer open at the time I would have clinked an imaginary glass in your honor.  ;)  :thmup:

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Peyton has all these regular season offensive numbers due to his own selfishness.  His regular season numbers did NOT drive his team to multiple super bowl victories.  With possibly 5 MVP's and the best stats all time he's only won one SB?  Right now Peyton and Marino are the best regular season QB's of all time.

 

As I posted on another thread...

 

Peyton's teams through out his career were based on trying to out score the other team.  Broncos' defense is not what's going to get the Broncos to the super bowl.  It's their offense.  Peyton would NEVER play on a team like the 49ers, Ravens, Seahawks where the coaching staff focuses on team play and defense.  Peyton went to Denver because Elway promised Peyton he could have full 100% control of the entire offense and they would load him up with offense. I guarantee you Peyton begs the GM and coach to bring in as many offensive weapons as possible where ever he goes and puts pressure on the front office to have to put more emphasis on the offense instead of the defense.  Hard to spend big money on your defense under a salary cap when your QB is always in your office begging you to spend more money on offense.  Through out Peyton's career I bet you he's always had it his way.  The owners and coaches gave him what he wanted.   Colts fans act like the Colts' franchise had no idea how to build a defense or that Dungy didn't know how to coach a defense.  lol  There's something called a "SALARY CAP" and they invested too much for Peyton's needs and wants instead of building a real "TEAM".

 

 

The Broncos/Texans score yesterday can be scrutinized against the Broncos.  That game was close for 90% of the game, the Broncos did nothing till the 4th quarter.

Let me get this straight. You posted this drivel not once but TWICE? Do you even understand football? The O's job is to score points. Period.

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Peyton has all these regular season offensive numbers due to his own selfishness.  His regular season numbers did NOT drive his team to multiple super bowl victories.  With possibly 5 MVP's and the best stats all time he's only won one SB?  Right now Peyton and Marino are the best regular season QB's of all time.

 

 

Don't see eye-to-eye with you on this one.

 

Don't you think Brady, if he had his druthers, would throw for 60 TDs and 6000 yards every season? Every QB would. Just because Manning has been so proficient over the years doesn't mean it's a contrived plot on his part to play for teams that are offense-heavy. It's not like the Broncos (or the Colts) brought in high-priced free agents for all their skills positions. The offense's job is to score points... I don't think this is a reasonable criticism.

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Don't you think Brady, if he had his druthers, would throw for 60 TDs and 6000 yards every season? Every QB would. 

Really?. 60 TDs and 6000 yards sounds a bit radical. He had Welker and Moss together for 3 years. Best he could after playing all the time was 50 TDs.

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article has 4 videos

 

  all 51 tds,

 

the 51st detailed

 

game higihlights of Texan game

 

and that c video , that aa  a link was shown earlier in this thread on they said to old & hurt  to play etc a now has 51 reasons and counting 

 

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Peyton%E2%80%99s-Take-Broncos-at-Texans/24c75a43-ae37-4376-83c7-b7df55d06599

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Let me get this straight. You posted this drivel not once but TWICE? Do you even understand football? The O's job is to score points. Period.

 

"The O's job is to score points. Period."

 

ahhhhh yeah and?  lol  No kidding.

 

Everything I posted went right over your head.

 

1.)  Having the best offensive numbers in the regular season means jack.  That doesn't win championships.

2.)  Peyton has had offenses built around him more than anyone else due to his demands and not by the coaches.  As I posted above, he chose Denver for the #1 reason that Elway promised him he would get 100% control of the offense to his liking.  That's not being a team player.  If he was a team player he would have chose the 49ers or Seahawks as they would have been more complete teams on both sides of the ball as the only thing those two teams are missing is strong consistent QB play.  But they weren't "flashy high powered offensive" enough for Peyton.

 

It was very telling and we got a little bit of a glimpse into Peyton's mind and thinking during his press conference after the game when he was asked about the TD record, he mentioned Brady.  By him mentioning Brady was more of a personal accomplishment to him as it seems beating Brady takes up too much of his mind.

 

Now all the pressure is on Peyton to finish off this record breaking season with a super bowl victory and if he doesn't that's an even bigger choke job than if Peyton weren't to have broken the record and lost in the post season.

 

Regular season stats are overrated.  As Coach Belichick said: "Stats are for losers."

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Regular season stats are overrated.  As Coach Belichick said: "Stats are for losers."

Unless it's Brady, then of course the rules change.

Just admit, what Peyton's done this year, at his age, and all the rest of the history and storylines attached, is pretty remarkable. Is it really so hard to admit that?

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"The O's job is to score points. Period."

 

ahhhhh yeah and?  lol  No kidding.

 

Everything I posted went right over your head.

 

1.)  Having the best offensive numbers in the regular season means jack.  That doesn't win championships.

2.)  Peyton has had offenses built around him more than anyone else due to his demands and not by the coaches.  As I posted above, he chose Denver for the #1 reason that Elway promised him he would get 100% control of the offense to his liking.  That's not being a team player.  If he was a team player he would have chose the 49ers or Seahawks as they would have been more complete teams on both sides of the ball as the only thing those two teams are missing is strong consistent QB play.  But they weren't "flashy high powered offensive" enough for Peyton.

 

It was very telling and we got a little bit of a glimpse into Peyton's mind and thinking during his press conference after the game when he was asked about the TD record, he mentioned Brady.  By him mentioning Brady was more of a personal accomplishment to him as it seems beating Brady takes up too much of his mind.

 

Now all the pressure is on Peyton to finish off this record breaking season with a super bowl victory and if he doesn't that's an even bigger choke job than if Peyton weren't to have broken the record and lost in the post season.

 

Regular season stats are overrated.  As Coach Belichick said: "Stats are for losers."

 

No offense or disrespect, but... 

 

You're not doing a good job this morning of hiding the bitterness over Manning re-taking the single season TD record.  ;)

 

1. His choice to go to Denver wasn't a reflection of some kind of selfishness, and of course he's going to take his offense with him. He's one of the most prolific passers the game has ever seen, do you think he was going to run the same offense they had with Tebow? Do you think if Brady ever leaves the Patriots he'll be jammed into whatever offense his new team runs, or do you think they'd start doing what he does instead? 

 

2. Manning mentioned Brady by name because the two have a mutual respect and it's Brady's record that was broken. I thought it was extremely classy, not a sign of some kind of mental obsession. They're the NFL's premiere rivalry and it's hard to mention one without the other, for everybody. 

 

3. Personally I don't know if the Broncos will be able to overcome their obvious flaws (mostly on defense) and win a championship. Historically, teams like that have not been able to. As a Patriots fan nothing would make me happier than seeing Denver lose as a team because that will help New England's cause, but it's not healthy to root against specific players, lol... 

 

 

Just enjoy the era we're seeing, this is a great time to be an NFL fan. History made almost every week. 

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Manning passes Marino and Brady at age 37 with four neck surgeries with receivers he has worked with for 1-2 years!. Marino was 24 when he broke the record in 2004. Brady was much younger as well in 2007. Manning gives all the credit to everyone but himself.  Can you imagine how bad this would all be IF the Colts did not have Luck and were a bad team???!!!

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Regular season stats are overrated.  As Coach Belichick said: "Stats are for losers."

Unless it's Brady, then of course the rules change.

Just admit, what Peyton's done this year, at his age, and all the rest of the history and storylines attached, is pretty remarkable. Is it really so hard to admit that?

 

Peyton is one of the greatest of all time.  First ballot HOF'er.  I've never once said on this forum that Peyton is overrated.  I think he's in the top 4 best QB's of all time.  Maybe the best regular season QB of all time, but I would still give the edge to Marino for best regular season QB of all time since he played in an era of more defense in the game.

 

I'm bashing Brady on another thread on this same forum and I got two Patriots' fans on here frustrated.  I'm not a Pats or Brady homer.

 

Brady's regular season stats are overrated like all others.  The 2007 season where the Pats went 18-1 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  All those records the Pats set that year all were a distant memory as what is most remembered during that season is the Giants winning the Super Bowl and the Patriots humiliated.

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Manning passes Marino and Brady at age 37 with four neck surgeries with receivers he has worked with for 1-2 years!. Marino was 24 when he broke the record in 2004. Brady was much younger as well in 2007. Manning gives all the credit to everyone but himself.  Can you imagine how bad this would all be IF the Colts did not have Luck and were a bad team???!!!

I think you mean Manning right? Not Marino when he was 24 in 2004.......If Marino was still playing today, I'm sure he would have 3 SB by now.

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No offense or disrespect, but... 

 

You're not doing a good job this morning of hiding the bitterness over Manning re-taking the single season TD record.  ;)

 

1. His choice to go to Denver wasn't a reflection of some kind of selfishness, and of course he's going to take his offense with him. He's one of the most prolific passers the game has ever seen, do you think he was going to run the same offense they had with Tebow? Do you think if Brady ever leaves the Patriots he'll be jammed into whatever offense his new team runs, or do you think they'd start doing what he does instead? 

 

2. Manning mentioned Brady by name because the two have a mutual respect and it's Brady's record that was broken. I thought it was extremely classy, not a sign of some kind of mental obsession. They're the NFL's premiere rivalry and it's hard to mention one without the other, for everybody. 

 

3. Personally I don't know if the Broncos will be able to overcome their obvious flaws (mostly on defense) and win a championship. Historically, teams like that have not been able to. As a Patriots fan nothing would make me happier than seeing Denver lose as a team because that will help New England's cause, but it's not healthy to root against specific players, lol... 

 

 

Just enjoy the era we're seeing, this is a great time to be an NFL fan. History made almost every week. 

 

"You're not doing a good job this morning of hiding the bitterness over Manning re-taking the single season TD record. "

 

I'd say the samething if Brady broke the record or any other QB and call out the fact the NFL has been watered down by rule changes and rule enforcements started by Bill Polian back in 2005.  I'd like the NFL to go back to what it was pre 2005.  That's my gripe with this single season record regardless of who has it.

 

 

1. His choice to go to Denver wasn't a reflection of some kind of selfishness, and of course he's going to take his offense with him. He's one of the most prolific passers the game has ever seen, do you think he was going to run the same offense they had with Tebow? Do you think if Brady ever leaves the Patriots he'll be jammed into whatever offense his new team runs, or do you think they'd start doing what he does instead? 

 

And you know what is in Peyton's head?  He could have gone to the 49ers which was and is a more complete team with a better D and do what Jim Harbaugh wanted.  Now you just contradicted yourself.  You said Peyton didn't pick the Broncos out of selfishness, then you admitted he wanted to take his offense with him and the only team that allowed that was the Broncos.  lol  Peyton could have gone to Seattle and be in a team with a great D and be a role player and just do what the coach wanted sort of like Joe Flacco with the Ravens....which actually works and wins super bowls.  Look at the QB's who won super bowls since 2000 = Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Big Ben 2 rings, Eli Manning 2 rings, Joe Flaco.  7 teams won Super Bowls with mediocre QB's but with great defenses.  When Brady won super bowls he wasn't a great QB, his stats were not great but the Pats had a great defense.

 

So Peyton again chose the selfishness route of wanting to do things his way and not the team's.

 

"3. Personally I don't know if the Broncos will be able to overcome their obvious flaws (mostly on defense) and win a championship. Historically, teams like that have not been able to. As a Patriots fan nothing would make me happier than seeing Denver lose as a team because that will help New England's cause, but it's not healthy to root against specific players, lol... 

 
 
That's pretty much my point.as Peyton wouldn't have to be dealing with a below average to bad defense if he went to the 49ers or Seahawks.  His wanting to have full control of an offense even with a team with a bad defense is selfish on his part.
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No offense or disrespect, but... 

 

You're not doing a good job this morning of hiding the bitterness over Manning re-taking the single season TD record.  ;)

 

1. His choice to go to Denver wasn't a reflection of some kind of selfishness, and of course he's going to take his offense with him. He's one of the most prolific passers the game has ever seen, do you think he was going to run the same offense they had with Tebow? Do you think if Brady ever leaves the Patriots he'll be jammed into whatever offense his new team runs, or do you think they'd start doing what he does instead? 

 

2. Manning mentioned Brady by name because the two have a mutual respect and it's Brady's record that was broken. I thought it was extremely classy, not a sign of some kind of mental obsession. They're the NFL's premiere rivalry and it's hard to mention one without the other, for everybody. 

 

3. Personally I don't know if the Broncos will be able to overcome their obvious flaws (mostly on defense) and win a championship. Historically, teams like that have not been able to. As a Patriots fan nothing would make me happier than seeing Denver lose as a team because that will help New England's cause, but it's not healthy to root against specific players, lol... 

 

 

Just enjoy the era we're seeing, this is a great time to be an NFL fan. History made almost every week. 

 

Ran out of like so earlty this am , Hours back, thats wwhat happens when records set, Nice post though

 

& Now Von adds to Vicvk & Wolfe Issues etc, Re  overcome their obvious flaws (mostly on defense)

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Peyton is one of the greatest of all time.  First ballot HOF'er.  I've never once said on this forum that Peyton is overrated.  I think he's in the top 4 best QB's of all time.  Maybe the best regular season QB of all time, but I would still give the edge to Marino for best regular season QB of all time since he played in an era of more defense in the game.

 

I'm bashing Brady on another thread on this same forum and I got two Patriots' fans on here frustrated.  I'm not a Pats or Brady homer.

 

Brady's regular season stats are overrated like all others.  The 2007 season where the Pats went 18-1 still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  All those records the Pats set that year all were a distant memory as what is most remembered during that season is the Giants winning the Super Bowl and the Patriots humiliated.

You make a lot of sense. You sure, you are from NE?.

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"The O's job is to score points. Period."

ahhhhh yeah and? lol No kidding.

Everything I posted went right over your head.

1.) Having the best offensive numbers in the regular season means jack. That doesn't win championships.

2.) Peyton has had offenses built around him more than anyone else due to his demands and not by the coaches. As I posted above, he chose Denver for the #1 reason that Elway promised him he would get 100% control of the offense to his liking. That's not being a team player. If he was a team player he would have chose the 49ers or Seahawks as they would have been more complete teams on both sides of the ball as the only thing those two teams are missing is strong consistent QB play. But they weren't "flashy high powered offensive" enough for Peyton.

It was very telling and we got a little bit of a glimpse into Peyton's mind and thinking during his press conference after the game when he was asked about the TD record, he mentioned Brady. By him mentioning Brady was more of a personal accomplishment to him as it seems beating Brady takes up too much of his mind.

Now all the pressure is on Peyton to finish off this record breaking season with a super bowl victory and if he doesn't that's an even bigger choke job than if Peyton weren't to have broken the record and lost in the post season.

Regular season stats are overrated. As Coach Belichick said: "Stats are for losers."

So you have facts backing up all of this nonsense?

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Colts fans act like the Colts' franchise had no idea how to build a defense or that Dungy didn't know how to coach a defense.  lol  There's something called a "SALARY CAP" and they invested too much for Peyton's needs and wants instead of building a real "TEAM".

 

Never heard of Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Bob Sanders, Kelvin Hayden, Antoine Bethea, Gary Brackett, etc....? All defensive guys who got second contracts with the Colts, deservedly so or not, some of whom were made the "highest paid at their position," again, deserved or not. 

 

This idea that the Colts invested too much money in the offense and not enough in the defense has actually been promoted by Colts fans for many years, and I disagree with them just like I disagree with you. 

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BcMLUzYCMAEH8tz.jpg

Wow. You guys really harp on this like it is some crime for an offense to score points where up by one score or ten scores. The fact is Brady scored all those TDs the same as Manning did whether his team had a big lead or not. Like I have said all along, hard to throw 50 TDs and I don't care how they come, bunch of 2 yard TD passes and screens taken to the house like Manning this year or Brady throwing with a three score lead in 07. Pretty sure Manning didn't need to keep throwing yesterday but he had his eyes on the record. More power to him.

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Wow. You guys really harp on this like it is some crime for an offense to score points where up by one score or ten scores. The fact is Brady scored all those TDs the same as Manning did whether his team had a big lead or not. Like I have said all along, hard to throw 50 TDs and I don't care how they come, bunch of 2 yard TD passes and screens taken to the house like Manning this year or Brady throwing with a three score lead in 07. Pretty sure Manning didn't need to keep throwing yesterday but he had his eyes on the record. More power to him.

This post is wildly inconsistent. For one they didn't score the TDs the same way. Manning once again threw his record breakers with a full game to go. Yesterday may have been the first time all year the Bronocs really tried to throw late when up big to get Peyton the record. Brady and co. on the other hand did it way more often in 07' and still needed that 16th game to do it.

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Wow. You guys really harp on this like it is some crime for an offense to score points where up by one score or ten scores. The fact is Brady scored all those TDs the same as Manning did whether his team had a big lead or not. Like I have said all along, hard to throw 50 TDs and I don't care how they come, bunch of 2 yard TD passes and screens taken to the house like Manning this year or Brady throwing with a three score lead in 07. Pretty sure Manning didn't need to keep throwing yesterday but he had his eyes on the record. More power to him.

 

I don't think that's the point at all. I think the point is that people claim Manning is throwing a bunch of TDs with big leads, and it's not true, certainly not in comparison with Brady in 2007. Between two record breaking seasons, in 100 TD passes, compared to Brady's one season of 50, Manning has thrown one fewer TD pass with a 17 point lead. There's a clear distinction between the two. (I don't have the numbers at my disposal, but I think Brady threw more with a 21 point lead as well.)

 

Whether that means that Brady was running up the score or not isn't really at issue. The point is that Manning didn't do what people complained about Brady doing.

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I don't think that's the point at all. I think the point is that people claim Manning is throwing a bunch of TDs with big leads, and it's not true, certainly not in comparison with Brady in 2007. Between two record breaking seasons, in 100 TD passes, compared to Brady's one season of 50, Manning has thrown one fewer TD pass with a 17 point lead. There's a clear distinction between the two. (I don't have the numbers at my disposal, but I think Brady threw more with a 21 point lead as well.)

 

Whether that means that Brady was running up the score or not isn't really at issue. The point is that Manning didn't do what people complained about Brady doing.

 

wish i kept link, no time right now to search

 

one thing written today peyton said, unlike when he got his  record 49th & was thinking about the 2 point conversion ( not sure said went for 1 or not or had to  ) 

 

but this time he was able to appreciate the moment

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I don't think that's the point at all. I think the point is that people claim Manning is throwing a bunch of TDs with big leads, and it's not true, certainly not in comparison with Brady in 2007. Between two record breaking seasons, in 100 TD passes, compared to Brady's one season of 50, Manning has thrown one fewer TD pass with a 17 point lead. There's a clear distinction between the two. (I don't have the numbers at my disposal, but I think Brady threw more with a 21 point lead as well.)

 

Whether that means that Brady was running up the score or not isn't really at issue. The point is that Manning didn't do what people complained about Brady doing.

I guess I don't get the complaint. Throwing TDs is hard to do. The offenses job is to score every time. Manning has done his share of running up the score like Brady. It was clear yesterday he was going for the record with his last two TDs throws. And has thrown a bunch of TDs inside the 5 as well this year. Good for him. Who wouldn't want that record?

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I guess I don't get the complaint. Throwing TDs is hard to do. The offenses job is to score every time. Manning has done his share of running up the score like Brady. It was clear yesterday he was going for the record with his last two TDs throws. And has thrown a bunch of TDs inside the 5 as well this year. Good for him. Who wouldn't want that record?

 

It's not a complaint, in this case. It's a distinction.

 

How important that distinction is to any of us is a different story. But the distinction is clear.

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Wow. You guys really harp on this like it is some crime for an offense to score points where up by one score or ten scores. The fact is Brady scored all those TDs the same as Manning did whether his team had a big lead or not. Like I have said all along, hard to throw 50 TDs and I don't care how they come, bunch of 2 yard TD passes and screens taken to the house like Manning this year or Brady throwing with a three score lead in 07. Pretty sure Manning didn't need to keep throwing yesterday but he had his eyes on the record. More power to him.

In this entire season, the only time Manning throwed to score was the last TD.

 

If he tried the entire year, it could have been 58 TDs easily by now with a game to go.

 

Brady throwed  till the last minute of 16th game. They could have rested him after 14 games. Not only they didnt but he throwed till the end.

 

Dont compare one throw of Manning vs an entire season of Brady.

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So the numbers Dustin posted don't show a distinction?

Nope. Because if we are talking about trying to score passing TDs then Manning did his fair share this year with the 2 yard throws and such. Again, Os job is to score. He has his sight on the record yesterday for sure. This idea that all Manning's Td are to try to win the game and Brady just pours on it whether it is this season any other season is laughable.

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Nope. Because if we are talking about trying to score passing TDs then Manning did his fair share this year with the 2 yard throws and such. Again, Os job is to score. He has his sight on the record yesterday for sure. This idea that all Manning's Td are to try to win the game and Brady just pours on it whether it is this season any other season is laughable.

 

Then there's no point in us continuing. 

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Nope. Because if we are talking about trying to score passing TDs then Manning did his fair share this year with the 2 yard throws and such. Again, Os job is to score. He has his sight on the record yesterday for sure. This idea that all Manning's Td are to try to win the game and Brady just pours on it whether it is this season any other season is laughable.

 

Not sure if you watched any games this year, every time Manning tried to score it was needed. When it was not needed, he ran the football.

 

Only time he throwed was the last TD yesterday which was clear he went for it coz he was just 1 TD away from it. 

 

Point here everyone is trying to make is - what Brady did in 2007 with all in effort is nothing. Manning killed it easily with so many quarters left.

 

As Manning himself said, its Marino's effort which is more impressive.

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Then there's no point in us continuing. 

The stats prove nothing. You do know this right? Brady could have thrown a screen or a dump off that was taken to the house when up by three scores and it will look like he was piling on when in fact his receiver made a great play similar to the way Thomas took screens to the house this year for Manning. You would have to break down all of the scoring situations to get an actual reflection of this so called "distinction."

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