Caldwell/coaching (Merge)

[bluebombers87]

Great coaches don't win Super Bowls will little talent. Great organizations win Super Bowls because they put everything together at the right time, and made the most of their opportunities. Was Dungy not a great coach? How talented are we, really, when our guys can't get open, can't hold on to the football, can't make plays on defense, can't block defensive linemen for more than 2 seconds, etc? I'm not saying we don't have talent, because we do, but they are making a lot of mental mistakes out there to go along with the awkward coaching. Again, it's a collective failure. If it takes a great coach to get players to play well, then you owe him credit for winning those last four games of the season in 2010; not to mention stopping the best RB's in the game cold. You can't take all the credit away from him for players not performing without giving him credit when they excel.

Congrats on not understanding football, logic, or the English language.

Which means the blame belongs to the players as well. But really, if the games are close, despite our injuries, and despite the player mistakes on the field, and despite not having an elite (not to mention the best) QB, that means the coach puts together a game plan that has us in it even with those disadvantages. Add one super QB and suddenly the same game plan from the same coach has us 5-1 or better right now.

Again, I AM NOT SAYING THAT JIM CALDWELL IS A GOOD COACH, NOR IS HE EXEMPT FROM BLAME. But we still really don't know much about him without Manning. If any team had Peyton Manning for so long, and suddenly he's gone, they would lose football games. I don't care who the coach is. No player in history can fill Manning's shoes. We're still not getting smashed even without him, which means the game plan is viable. Our players are making one too many mistakes. How is Caldwell responsible for a fumble that the other team returns for a touchdown? I ask, because that's happened to us 3 times this year at critical junctures in games. That's 100% on the players. Jim's "terrible" plan has gotten us the ball with time to do something, and our players have consistently turned it over when it counts.

The whole team is failing. Caldwell is a tiny piece of that failure.

This. I could scarcely have said it better myself.

The issue with the posts slamming Caldwell is that they lack the mental capacity to put themselves in his shoes. Caldwell was given a great team. No doubt about that. He was given a team with a great QB and some superstars at key positions. That being said, he inherited a team that had some underlying issues.

As I've stated before, which most of refused to acknowledge (for reasons I can only assume as fear to address my superior intellect [sarcasm]), this team was built around Manning and his superior QB skills that gave us the ability to jump out to a lead and (more often than not) score enough points to put pressure on the opposing offense to keep up while our defense puts pressure on the opposing QB. Take out our hyper-intelligent QB, and the chain reaction falls by the way side.

So, what does the coaching staff and the FO do? Try and find a quick fix. Best way to do that? Attempt to mitigate the damage on our offense by bringing in a veteran QB (which the majority of fans lauded). Meanwhile, stout up the defensive line (re: defensive line additions in the draft and offseason). Also shore up the run game with a bruiser run back and top rated O-lineman.

I'm not (nor have I ever said) that the FO and coaching staff have not had their shame of neglect for our woes. But I have explained (with no one acknowledging for what I assume the same reasons as above [sarcasm]) why its incredibly difficult to maintain the highest paid QB, one of the highest paid DB (Sanders when he was around), DE, plus quite a few players who took up a chunk of payroll AND at the same fill the rest of the holes with quality players. Something has to give. For every gem, there is a failure. Polian is good, but he's not infallible.

You can blame the FO and coaching staff all you want, but when you have one of the most cerebral and greatest QBs to play the game, its not a bad strategy (some would say smart) to surround him with the weapons needed to score a lot of points and build a D to protect the often inevitable lead.

Now if people want to debate the merits of this philosophy, then by all means, please do.

If you want to blindly throw out that its the coach's fault and say "he needs to make his players play better", then I suggest you consider a career in a Fortune 500 company for your tremendous leadership skills.

[number28]

Stupid Colts organization!!!!! Build a defense geared to play with a lead. How presumptuous. Now, blame a coach that did not build this defense. Don't draft a running game. Momma told me never put all your chips in one basket. Why not change the name of the team to the Indy Peytons? Did Unitas have a running game? Did Montana? Did Bradshaw? Marino? Take a look at any and all great QB's and look at their backfields. Now the slant is the cheating skunk from Ohio State will get the job next year as he is Isay's maid and butler. Great Choice!! College and pro ball are one in the same and that is why every top draft choice from college comes in and sets all new QB records. Duh.

plus 1

[number28]

if you dont blame caldwell you dont understand this game at all. We are cluttered with talent and 0-6. I understand we should probably be a 500 team without him but 0-6. Thats bad coaching. His job is to get productivity out of the players. If its not his fault why do we have a coach at all? what would you classify his job as? Great coaches win superbowls with little talent. Bad coaches dont win a game with a ton of talent. Congrats on not understanding the game of football at all and posting on forums. you deserve a trophy.

cluttered with talent? ok, who is your dealer? I want some Chocolate Maui Coconut!!!

[Jaric]

If you want to blindly throw out that its the coach's fault and say "he needs to make his players play better", then I suggest you consider a career in a Fortune 500 company for your tremendous leadership skills.

You realize that's pretty much his job right? To make his players play better

As to your fortune 500 company, try explaining to your stock holders that the company is failing because the guys you hire and oversee can't do their job right and see how long you last.

In positions of authority, the only thing that matters is results. That's how coaches are judged. If they don't want to be judged like that, then they shouldn't be coaches. It is entirely appropriate to blame both Caldwell and Polian when things don't go right because it's their job to make sure they do go right.

[willysp]

Hey dude.. maybe you should get acquainted with the colts D linemen.. Freeney and Mathis. Two pro bowlers......

Don't recall hearing their names mentioned during the game last week. Did they do anything?

[Jaric]

Don't recall hearing their names mentioned during the game last week. Did they do anything?

That's not true. We heard how when they go out for a break the offense can do pretty much whatever they want. I heard them specifically say every time they'd be on the sidelines and the Bengals would invariably make a first down or positive offensive play.

And then when they were on the field they both got double teamed because we have guys at DT who were on their couch a week or two ago.

I'm not a religious person by nature, but I think it's all in our bests interests to say a few hail Marys or whatever for Drake Nevis's back and what ever it is that ailing Fili Moala. Might even throw in a voodoo dance for Eric Foster's ankle if you want to think long term.

[number28]

put any other coach into this situation and I bet they don't win games.

Blaming Caldwell is an ignorant move.

You people just can't accept that the team sucks and need someone to point your filthy fingers on.

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of spoiled fans. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be? You need people like Caldwell. You need people like him so you can point your filthy fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Him, he don't have that problem. Him, he always tell the truth. Even when he lies. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

Edited October 18, 2011 by number28

[BOONE]

The man is NOT a HC.....he is a good guy and Im sure his players like him but he is so far out of his league its not even funny. I can still remember all the Caldwell fans that would go crazy if anyone said without Manning we would be a joke, well .......

EDIT......He was out of his league in college football and if not for Dungy he might have been on foodstamps by now! They say 1 in 7 are nowadays lol

Edited October 18, 2011 by BOONE

[bluebombers87]

You realize that's pretty much his job right? To make his players play better

As to your fortune 500 company, try explaining to your stock holders that the company is failing because the guys you hire and oversee can't do their job right and see how long you last.

In positions of authority, the only thing that matters is results. That's how coaches are judged. If they don't want to be judged like that, then they shouldn't be coaches. It is entirely appropriate to blame both Caldwell and Polian when things don't go right because it's their job to make sure they do go right.

Thank you Jaric for expounding on my Economics analogy.

Lets say you have a milkshake err... Own a company. Lets say that company is a fish market. You have locations in San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago and Indianapolis. Now lets say a tidal wave takes out San Francisco. And lets say that Seattle is affected simarlily but not entirely in the same way San Francisco was for their product. And with the decrease in production from San Francisco, offices like Chicago and Indianapolis suffer greatly for it because, lets face it, neither can really support a fish product line. Chicago, due to its marginal success in smelt, can put up some product, but no where near the amount that is needed to keep your company in the top 10 fish companies in the country.

Now also throw in the mix that you have a finite amount of money that limited you to the number of franchises you could open. Which caused you to open franchises that depended solely on the success of the other locations.

This is essentially what happened with the Colts.

[Jaric]

put any other coach into this situation and I bet they don't win games.

Blaming Caldwell is an ignorant move.

You people just can't accept that the team sucks and need someone to point your filthy fingers on.

You might not have noticed this, but pretty much every season 31 other teams in this league manage to win games without Peyton Manning on the sidelines.

It is possible you know.

As to your crying about ignorance or whatever, it's his job to ensure the team doesn't suck. That's what he does. And right now he's doing a terrible job at it.

That's part of being in a position of leadership. When things don't go well, you end up with the bill. That's how it is, and if you don't like it, then don't go into a position of leadership.

[bluebombers87]

The man is NOT a HC.....he is a good guy and Im sure his players like him but he is so far out of his league its not even funny. I can still remember all the Caldwell fans that would go crazy if anyone said without Manning we would be joke, well .......

Funny, I remember the same thing being said about Dungy.

Short sighted fans gave Dungy the same treatment fans have given Caldwell, until he won a SB. Then he was lionized.

[Jaric]

Thank you Jaric for expounding on my Economics analogy.

Lets say you have a milkshake err... Own a company. Lets say that company is a fish market. You have locations in San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago and Indianapolis. Now lets say a tidal wave takes out San Francisco. And lets say that Seattle is affected simarlily but not entirely in the same way San Francisco was for their product. And with the decrease in production from San Francisco, offices like Chicago and Indianapolis suffer greatly for it because, lets face it, neither can really support a fish product line. Chicago, due to its marginal success in smelt, can put up some product, but no where near the amount that is needed to keep your company in the top 10 fish companies in the country.

Now also throw in the mix that you have a finite amount of money that limited you to the number of franchises you could open. Which caused you to open franchises that depended solely on the success of the other locations.

This is essentially what happened with the Colts.

We lost one guy. Manning. Yes, other guys have been hurt but is anyone really going to argue we're 0-6 because Bullitt is on IR (and I like Bullitt)

No, we're 0-6 because Manning isn't here to put makeup on the pig. That's a flawed business strategy. Diversify. If we were stock holders we'd all be bankrupt right now begging for Obama to throw money at us.

[bluebombers87]

You might not have noticed this, but pretty much every season 31 other teams in this league manage to win games without Peyton Manning on the sidelines.

It is possible you know.

As to your crying about ignorance or whatever, it's his job to ensure the team doesn't suck. That's what he does. And right now he's doing a terrible job at it.

That's part of being in a position of leadership. When things don't go well, you end up with the bill. That's how it is, and if you don't like it, then don't go into a position of leadership.

Not sure if you noticed this but just as 31 teams win with out Peyton, I know of 16 that just had their odds of beating the Colts approximately 9 times easier because he's not in the equation.

Its like putting Mike Tyson in his prime against a top rated opponent, then saying Tyson has to close his eyes for the fight. Then blaming the trainer for Tyson losing.

[bluebombers87]

We lost one guy. Manning. Yes, other guys have been hurt but is anyone really going to argue we're 0-6 because Bullitt is on IR (and I like Bullitt)

No, we're 0-6 because Manning isn't here to put makeup on the pig. That's a flawed business strategy. Diversify. If we were stock holders we'd all be bankrupt right now begging for Obama to throw money at us.

When you're entire strategy depends on the productivity of one player (Manning and San Francisco in my analogy) and your keystone is removed, how well do you expect to do?

Now if you want to debate the merits of the strategy, then you'd have to acknowledge that this is beyond Caldwell. I would be more than happy to debate this strategy versus other team's strategy if you'd like.

[Jaric]

Not sure if you noticed this but just as 31 teams win with out Peyton, I know of 16 that just had their odds of beating the Colts approximately 9 times easier because he's not in the equation.

Of course it gets easier when a HOF qb goes down. I'm not saying they should be 6-0 and setting the world on fire.

.500. If we can't get to .500 because we lost ONE guy, then we have built a flawed team and those who built it should be held accountable.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Jaric

[Jaric]

When you're entire strategy depends on the productivity of one player (Manning and San Francisco in my analogy) and your keystone is removed, how well do you expect to do?

Now if you want to debate the merits of the strategy, then you'd have to acknowledge that this is beyond Caldwell. I would be more than happy to debate this strategy versus other team's strategy if you'd like.

It might have been this thread I said the issue is more than just Caldwell. I'm not denying the players suck, I'm just not allowing it as an excuse for the guy who's job it is to make sure that the players don't suck.

And neither should you or anyone else on the forum.

[bluebombers87]

Let it never be said you lack a firm grasp of the obvious.

Of course it gets easier when a HOF qb goes down. I'm not saying they should be 6-0 and setting the world on fire.

.500. If we can't get to .500 because we lost ONE guy, then we have built a flawed team and those who built it should be held accountable.

You're missing the point.

Peyton Manning and the offense are this team's identity.

Offense fires at such a high level, outscores the other teams offense, allows the defense to go into attack mode on the other team's defense which has to force throws in order to keep up.

Remove Manning, offense falters, offense doesn't out score other offense, defense has to adopt more universal role. Advantage of team with high powered offense is removed, leaves team weakened.

[bluebombers87]

It might have been this thread I said the issue is more than just Caldwell. I'm not denying the players suck, I'm just not allowing it as an excuse for the guy who's job it is to make sure that the players don't suck.

And neither should you or anyone else on the forum.

I've never said Caldwell doesn't take some of the blame. He deserves it for not pulling Lacey earlier, allowing Tryon to go, not putting Painter in week 3.

But there is no one scapegoat. Caldwell doesn't deserve half of the flak he catches. My goal is to simply educate my point of view. I am fully aware that the majority of fans will gloss over this due to the large number of words and just spout off talking points from ESPN or other blog sites. But for those who are willing to read and discuss, here is my opinion.

[number28]

keep pointing your fingers at Caldwell while the FO laughs at you.

he is like Jesus, taking all the sins of the poor system.

Bring Lombardi back from the dead and he will also be 0-6 on this poor excuse of a team.

[bluebombers87]

keep pointing your fingers at Caldwell while the FO laughs at you.

he is like Jesus, taking all the sins of the poor system.

Bring Lombardi back from the dead and he will also be 0-6 on this poor excuse of a team.

Maybe because I'm a fellow Boilermaker, but my Jesus would have started Painter a lot sooner.

[Jaric]

You're missing the point.

Peyton Manning and the offense are this team's identity.

Offense fires at such a high level, outscores the other teams offense, allows the defense to go into attack mode on the other team's defense which has to force throws in order to keep up.

Remove Manning, offense falters, offense doesn't out score other offense, defense has to adopt more universal role. Advantage of team with high powered offense is removed, leaves team weakened.

By the way, I edited out that first part, because when I reread it, it came across far more hostile than I intended.

Defensively, we've built a hot house orchid. Which is precisely why this team has this nasty habit of being one and done in the playoffs.

Because it's not realistic for your offense to run up the score consistently on playoff teams. By and large their defense are too good. All this nonsense about "built to play with a lead" is like nails on a chalkboard. You build a defense to stop the other team. Period.

If Peyton Manning is as good as we think he is, he shouldn't have to have the entire salary cap devoted to offensive players.

[Jaric]

keep pointing your fingers at Caldwell while the FO laughs at you.

he is like Jesus, taking all the sins of the poor system.

Bring Lombardi back from the dead and he will also be 0-6 on this poor excuse of a team.

Vince Lombardi would have never let it get to this point.

[number28]

Maybe because I'm a fellow Boilermaker, but my Jesus would have started Painter a lot sooner.

Irsay and Polian brough in Collins and told Caldwell to start him.

Keep pointing your Boilermaker fingers.

[number28]

Vince Lombardi would have never let it get to this point.

and Caldwell is the reason we are 0-6?

[Jaric]

I've never said Caldwell doesn't take some of the blame. He deserves it for not pulling Lacey earlier, allowing Tryon to go, not putting Painter in week 3.

But there is no one scapegoat. Caldwell doesn't deserve half of the flak he catches. My goal is to simply educate my point of view. I am fully aware that the majority of fans will gloss over this due to the large number of words and just spout off talking points from ESPN or other blog sites. But for those who are willing to read and discuss, here is my opinion.

Never once said there was. We have a lot of dead weight right now. My opinion is that Caldwell is part of it.

[Jaric]

and Caldwell is the reason we are 0-6?

One of them yes.

He is the head coach you know. If you aren't willing to give him some of the blame, that doesn't speak all that well about what you think he actually does here.

[number28]

so if he gets most of the blame, shouldn't he get most of the credit when he took us to SB?

so when we do good PM is the reason for that, and if we do bad Caldwell is the culprit. You make no sense.

Why even have a HC on this team then?

[bluebombers87]

By the way, I edited out that first part, because when I reread it, it came across far more hostile than I intended.

Defensively, we've built a hot house orchid. Which is precisely why this team has this nasty habit of being one and done in the playoffs.

Because it's not realistic for your offense to run up the score consistently on playoff teams. By and large their defense are too good. All this nonsense about "built to play with a lead" is like nails on a chalkboard. You build a defense to stop the other team. Period.

If Peyton Manning is as good as we think he is, he shouldn't have to have the entire salary cap devoted to offensive players.

I realize that.... now.

I see the flaws in that system. But I also see flaws in every other system. The problem is that we have one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL. One of the best ways to cement Indianapolis as both a football city and a year in year out contender (not to mention give Indy a huge amount of publicity) is to surround him with weapons and watch the fireworks.

This strategy satisfies both team and economical goals for the franchise.

[bluebombers87]

Vince Lombardi would have never let it get to this point.

To be fair, Lombardi also never had to deal with the economic side of the sport like coach's now do. Also, in Lombardi's day, the game was vastly different. Viewership was way lower, scores were lower and Communism was a universally hated enemy.

Once teams and the NFL realized they could sell a lot more tickets, merchandise and TV deals with higher scoring offenses, Lombardi was out of his element.

Put Lombardi in time machine and transport him today, he'd struggle.

[number28]

Funny, I remember the same thing being said about Dungy.

Short sighted fans gave Dungy the same treatment fans have given Caldwell, until he won a SB. Then he was lionized.

plus 1

[FireJimCaldwell]

The only way Caldwell took us to the Super Bowl, if he was wearing the little funny hat and physically driving the Greyhound.

Would other coaches struggle losing the best player in the league? Yes. Would elite coaches have the team better prepared for week 1? Of course.

Just like Sunday at the end of the 1st half. Why didn't Caldwell use his timeouts to try to get the ball back. @ 0-5 you might want to pull out all stops and try to do something to create an advantage.

With Caldwell we start the game with a disadvantage, and that doesn't change when Peyton Manning steps on the field. He and the rest of the team have to overcome Caldwell and this coaching staff.

[number28]

The only way Caldwell took us to the Super Bowl, if he was wearing the little funny hat and physically driving the Greyhound.

Would other coaches struggle losing the best player in the league? Yes. Would elite coaches have the team better prepared for week 1? Of course.

Just like Sunday at the end of the 1st half. Why didn't Caldwell use his timeouts to try to get the ball back. @ 0-5 you might want to pull out all stops and try to do something to create an advantage.

With Caldwell we start the game with a disadvantage, and that doesn't change when Peyton Manning steps on the field. He and the rest of the team have to overcome Caldwell and this coaching staff.

good point, but this year there is no coach on earth that would have saved this team. no one.

[FireJimCaldwell]

good point, but this year there is no coach on earth that would have saved this team. no one.

Well, considering we have had 5 winnable ball games I respectfully disagree. With Manning, I feel we are easily 5-1, or 6-0 because I don't think Manning gives the Texans the short fields and free points that Collins did.

5 of those games were winnable with the horrible staff we have in place. With a solid HC & staff we could easily be 3-3 right now or better and that is with a back up qb that is up and down.

[number28]

Well, considering we have had 5 winnable ball games I respectfully disagree. With Manning, I feel we are easily 5-1, or 6-0 because I don't think Manning gives the Texans the short fields and free points that Collins did.

5 of those games were winnable with the horrible staff we have in place. With a solid HC & staff we could easily be 3-3 right now or better and that is with a back up qb that is up and down.

so you are saying a solid HC will make our high school caliber talent all of a sudden play better defense?

I respectfully disagree, there is no way we would be 3-3 with a SOLID staff like you say.

That SOLID staff are not the ones that play on the field.

[FireJimCaldwell]

so you are saying a solid HC will make our high school caliber talent all of a sudden play better defense?

I respectfully disagree, there is no way we would be 3-3 with a SOLID staff like you say.

That SOLID staff are not the ones that play on the field.

No they don't play on the field but they make better choices, have better schemes, and try to put the team in the best position possible.

[number28]

No they don't play on the field but they make better choices, have better schemes, and try to put the team in the best position possible.

oh yeah, like Wade Phillips right? supposedly he was supposed to be elite, great choice maker and great schemer lol..Fired because his players failed to produce his SOLID decisions.

Should I mention to you other so called SOLID coaching staffs that failed? How many great Head Coaches that were fired because their players failed?

please stop while you can...

Coaching staff are not the flying bodies on the field. With Colts talent, NO ONE would win a game this year. No one.

Edited October 18, 2011 by number28

[FireJimCaldwell]

oh yeah, like Wade Phillips right? supposedly he was supposed to be elite, great choice maker and great schemer lol..Fired because his players failed to produce his SOLID decisions.

Should I mention to you other so called SOLID coaching staffs that failed? How many great Head Coaches that were fired because their players failed?

please stop while you can...

Coaching staff are not the flying bodies on the field. With Colts talent, NO ONE would win a game this year. No one.

Mention every failed coaching staff that you care to. There are 4-5 fired each and every year and out of those head coaches canned each and every year 50%+ would be an upgrade to Caldwell and would have had the Colts (the 53 guys that take the field each and every Sunday) in a better position to win. You mentioned Wade Phillips... Upgrade over Caldwell. the worst coach in our division, and easily one of the 5 worst head coaches in the NFL.

To think that no body could have had us in a position to win one of the 6 games we have played is a pretty ignorant view.

[number28]

So Brad Childress, John Fox and Wade Phillips are all slouches?

They are proven winning coaches that were fired because their team decided to play like crap that season.

Keep blaming coaches for the Colts patheticism this year. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

[pizza guy]

Why are fans blaming Caldwell?

Because he sucks.

[FireJimCaldwell]

So Brad Childress, John Fox and Wade Phillips are all slouches?

They are proven winning coaches that were fired because their team decided to play like crap that season.

Keep blaming coaches for the Colts patheticism this year. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Where did I say they were slouches... They were fired, some deserved it more than others, some had different reasons. Add Fisher to the list, he was fired. I guess he sucks too. I guess they all suck but Jim Caldwell, the only reason we've won the past two divisions. See how it looks to put words in someones post.

I didn't want the joke of a coach hired to start with, but he was. He was hired for continuity from the Dungy staff. He wasn't an offensive whiz, or a defensive stud, he was/is a CEO type hired not to wreck the car he was riding in and so far he's 2 for 2 in doing that.

Do I put 100% of the blame on Caldwell/Staff for being 0-6. No. The majority of that falls on the fact that Manning is injured. With that said do I put a lot of the fault on the team being winless instead of 2-4, 3-3, 4-2. Yes. When they knew Manning wasn't going to be playing for a period of time and heck they might know that he won't play at all. We don't yet. But when they knew he wasn't going to be playing, their job was to make the most of the situation and they haven't.

Nobody can expect them to not miss a beat. That would't happen if you had a combination urn of Lombardi, Walsh and Landry being held by Chuck Noll, but we wouldn't be 0-6 at this point with a good coach.

Peyton Manning is the best quarterback this game has seen. He's been held back the past two years with an inadequate head coach. I wanted Caldwell gone long before Manning had his neck cut on this off season. I don't need to say that the Colts have one of the worst head coaches in the game to make me sleep at night. But I guess it is hard to defend him. So I do applaud your valiant effort. You are failing, but I applaud the effort. Just don't wear yourself out in trying to make him look good.