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same old D same OLine


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What did you think about Harnish today? Since as far as i can tell he is going to be the backup once HB hangs up those cleets. 

 

He's still got a lot of work to do, but at the same time there isn't a lot of quality depth on our OL right now with Thornton and Holmes out.  However, I did think Ijalana played relatively well at LT towards the end of the game.  There was one play where he really didn't even move so I'm thinking that was a miscommunication.  otherwise he did a pretty good job I thought.

 

Very quickly back to the CB's...I think the 2 that got abused the most were Marshay Green (not sure I saw him do really anything positive) and Allen Chapman.  Chapman looked to be a very good, physical blocker but you don't really get to show off your tackling skills unless you're giving up catches. *shrug*  Maybe he can improve in his coverage skills.  I'm not really all that sure about Gordy but it looked like they didn't throw his way much, or at all...which hopefully means he was playing solid coverage which I am more than happy with. :)

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He's still got a lot of work to do, but at the same time there isn't a lot of quality depth on our OL right now with Thornton and Holmes out.  However, I did think Ijalana played relatively well at LT towards the end of the game.  There was one play where he really didn't even move so I'm thinking that was a miscommunication.  otherwise he did a pretty good job I thought.

 

Very quickly back to the CB's...I think the 2 that got abused the most were Marshay Green (not sure I saw him do really anything positive) and Allen Chapman.  Chapman looked to be a very good, physical blocker but you don't really get to show off your tackling skills unless you're giving up catches. *shrug*  Maybe he can improve in his coverage skills.  I'm not really all that sure about Gordy but it looked like they didn't throw his way much, or at all...which hopefully means he was playing solid coverage which I am more than happy with. :)

One positive about every d player to me is that they all make open field tackles even the triple backup cbs. This of course does not apply to our special teams....UGHHH. I actually thought swanson got abused the worst in the secondary. 

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Well, to assess the O and D line and actually judge whether or not they are the same, have regressed, or improved....the lines would both have to compete in a real meaningful game situation. That has not happened yet, so I'll save my opinion till after that has occurred.

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this is preseason so calm your horses peope :) 

but yea, pass rush was non existant

I see where Irsay himself was agreeing with me on one of the other topics.

 

I also started the topic of a bold prediction that the bills were going to be a surprise team this year (I must be right about that too). as mentioned in that thread that the year before I picked the seahawks as a surprise team but didn't mention it so when I looked at the bills this year thought I would star a topic on them

 

well just saying

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I'm embarrassed to be a part of this forum right now...

League wide issue. Fans of any team tend to put too much importance on the preseason. But to their credit, they've been waiting for football for months.

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League wide issue. Fans of any team tend to put too much importance on the preseason. But to their credit, they've been waiting for football for months.

I'm willing to bet there will be much improvement on our next game. if not then there will be some roster moves. I think it was just that bad

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I'm willing to bet there will be much improvement on our next game. if not then there will be some roster moves. I think it was just that bad

 

I'd like to ask you a few serious questions, give me your opinion if you like  -

 

Do you understand what preseason is about?  Do you understand the difference in how teams game plan for real games?  

 

Do you think creating a pass rush is more important than evaluating players, especially second and third stringers?

 

Do you think the outcome of a preseason game is important?

 

Thanks.

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I'm willing to bet there will be much improvement on our next game. if not then there will be some roster moves. I think it was just that bad

 

and I'd like to add one more to Smonroe's list of questions....who do you think is going to get cut that actually had a chance to make the team?

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The defensive lined played great all throughout the game. All of the NT's Franklin,Tevasue,Chapman, and even heard weren't being moved made it easier for our LB's to make plays. Lawrence Guy was the DE that stood out to me he was great in the run game and provided solid pass rushing. Othen then the Castonzo sack i thought the starting o-line played well even though that play was a miscue between Luck and Satele.

Agreed. The front 5 of the D are better than last year. Franklin and Chapman better than Antonio Johnson. Toler and Mathis botched assignments on Spiller's first two runs which can be corrected. If Landry had been on the field he might have erased those runs.

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The first two run plays of the game were an example of what Erik Walden does well. The first play was a run to Mathis' side, and Mathis did a terrible job of setting the edge to contain the run. Spiller got to the outside, a couple of defenders ran into each other, and now Spiller is 17 yards down the field. But it started up front with Mathis getting too far to the inside instead of pushing his man back.

 

To see what Mathis should have done, watch the next play. It goes to Walden's side, but Walden doesn't try to beat his man to make the play, he simply sets the edge and cuts that side of the field off. 

 

But on that play, Mathis overpursues on the back side, and is again out of position, letting Spiller cut back and pick up a big gain.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, watch the first play of the Bills second possession. Walden sets the edge on the playside, and we cut Spiller down easily.

 

I know Walden is going to be a favorite whipping boy this year, but I think he did his job today. 

Agreed. Toler also was pushed inside.

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Tevaseu was in before Chapman but Chapman had 4 tackles for no gain.

 

Actually, Jason_S pointed out that Chapman came in during the 1st Q.  

 

It was a weird rotation, they're probably just trying out different combinations.

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I'd like to ask you a few serious questions, give me your opinion if you like  -

 

Do you understand what preseason is about?  Do you understand the difference in how teams game plan for real games?  

 

Do you think creating a pass rush is more important than evaluating players, especially second and third stringers?

 

Do you think the outcome of a preseason game is important?

 

Thanks.

 

I know you weren't asking me ... I really don't care if we win or lose preseason games.  I am not worried about our season based on that preseason game, but that being said; even considering circumstances (players out, BUF playing starters longer, etc)  we looked worse than I anticipated.

 

My issue is this: when so many players are playing so bad it can make it harder to evaluate players. The few who may have potential sometimes don't get a chance to display it/make a case for themselves, because they are being pulled down by the scrubs.  A WR can't throw it to himself; a QB and RB can't do much if the OL is nonexistent, etc ... these are extreme examples but you see my point.

 

Even and if it is our 2s and 3s against their 1s, and we are getting taken to school I still expect them to look like they have played football before.  There were a lot of guys out there Sunday who played like they had never even seen a football before. ;)

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Chapman was in for so little I barely noticed it. Dhb might not be fully recovered from knee injury yet.

 

Chapman was only in for a couple of plays in the first quarter.  But he and Tevaseu essentially took turns for the rest of the game...for the situations where they used a NT.  But I saw Chapman in here and there in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters.

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Even and if it is our 2s and 3s against their 1s, and we are getting taken to school I still expect them to look like they have played football before.  There were a lot of guys out there Sunday who played like they had never even seen a football before. ;)

 

Here I guess is where we differ...I thought our 1's, 2's and 3's played pretty well.  The ones who looked lost were the guys below that...guys like Lanear Sampson, Dax Swanson, Shawn Loiseau, Sheldon Price, Marshay Green, Nathan Palmer, Jeremy Kelley...these guys looked horrible.  Caesar Rayford showed a couple of flashes but there were far more times that he looked lost...especially against the run.  

 

Out of the 3's...yeah Harnish looked terrible but at the same time he was throwing mostly (at least in the 2nd half) to Palmer, Sampson and Kelley.  Kellen Heard looked like he played quite a bit and he's nothing special but I don't even know if he's 3rd team.  I do think some of our 2's and 3's looked worse than they really are because, especially in the 2nd half, there would only be a couple of guys from our 2's and 3's and the rest were guys like who I mentioned above.  

 

The thing that stood out to me was this....the only TD the Bill's first team scored was in the 2 minute drill before the half...and during that drive, their first team OL was going against our 2nd and 3rd team DL and LB's.  Their first team WR's were being guarded by Vaughn, Gordy and Allen Chapman.  But even though it was a few of our 2nd but mostly 3rd team guys against the Bill's first team, the Bills still had to work to get that TD.  

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Here I guess is where we differ...I thought our 1's, 2's and 3's played pretty well.  The ones who looked lost were the guys below that...guys like Lanear Sampson, Dax Swanson, Shawn Loiseau, Sheldon Price, Marshay Green, Nathan Palmer, Jeremy Kelley...these guys looked horrible.  Caesar Rayford showed a couple of flashes but there were far more times that he looked lost...especially against the run.  

 

Out of the 3's...yeah Harnish looked terrible but at the same time he was throwing mostly (at least in the 2nd half) to Palmer, Sampson and Kelley.  Kellen Heard looked like he played quite a bit and he's nothing special but I don't even know if he's 3rd team.  I do think some of our 2's and 3's looked worse than they really are because, especially in the 2nd half, there would only be a couple of guys from our 2's and 3's and the rest were guys like who I mentioned above.  

 

The thing that stood out to me was this....the only TD the Bill's first team scored was in the 2 minute drill before the half...and during that drive, their first team OL was going against our 2nd and 3rd team DL and LB's.  Their first team WR's were being guarded by Vaughn, Gordy and Allen Chapman.  But even though it was a few of our 2nd but mostly 3rd team guys against the Bill's first team, the Bills still had to work to get that TD.  

 

All true.  Of course, you want your backups to win their assignments.  But there's two things that a few people on this forum just don't get -

 

1.  The 2s and 3s aren't going to be playing as a team in real games.  You're looking at their individual performances to see how they'd be as a substitute.

 

2.  You may have 7 subs playing great, but if the other 4 (let's say DBs) are stinking it up, you're still going to look bad.  Meaning, we may have had backup D linemen playing great, but the other team is still advancing.

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All true.  Of course, you want your backups to win their assignments.  But there's two things that a few people on this forum just don't get -

 

1.  The 2s and 3s aren't going to be playing as a team in real games.  You're looking at their individual performances to see how they'd be as a substitute.

 

2.  You may have 7 subs playing great, but if the other 4 (let's say DBs) are stinking it up, you're still going to look bad.  Meaning, we may have had backup D linemen playing great, but the other team is still advancing.

 

EXACTLY!.  100 Likes for you.  lol  

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The first two run plays of the game were an example of what Erik Walden does well. The first play was a run to Mathis' side, and Mathis did a terrible job of setting the edge to contain the run. Spiller got to the outside, a couple of defenders ran into each other, and now Spiller is 17 yards down the field. But it started up front with Mathis getting too far to the inside instead of pushing his man back.

 

To see what Mathis should have done, watch the next play. It goes to Walden's side, but Walden doesn't try to beat his man to make the play, he simply sets the edge and cuts that side of the field off. 

 

But on that play, Mathis overpursues on the back side, and is again out of position, letting Spiller cut back and pick up a big gain.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, watch the first play of the Bills second possession. Walden sets the edge on the playside, and we cut Spiller down easily.

 

I know Walden is going to be a favorite whipping boy this year, but I think he did his job today. 

 

No, don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you on the setting the edge bit.  He was not to blame on either of those plays.  but what I'm tlaking about, in the pass rush, is watch the play where EJ Manuel rips off 25 yards or whatever it was.  He ran so far up the field and took himself out of the play.  Then, if I recall correctly, a play or two later, he did the exact same thing and opened up another hole in the pass rush again.  I don't remember how that play panned out and I can't watch it because I'm at work. 

 

He's great at setting the edge, but I worry about when we play teams like the 49ers, Kaepernick will make lunch meat out of him all day with that read option pass play if he runs up the field like that without containing him.  Rush up the field too far like that, and Kaep's gone.  It's what happened to him last year against hte 49ers (though, that play wasn't entirely his fault, he was on an island and the CB got blocked and safties over pursued and Kaep was off to the races).

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No, don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you on the setting the edge bit.  He was not to blame on either of those plays.  but what I'm tlaking about, in the pass rush, is watch the play where EJ Manuel rips off 25 yards or whatever it was.  He ran so far up the field and took himself out of the play.  Then, if I recall correctly, a play or two later, he did the exact same thing and opened up another hole in the pass rush again.  I don't remember how that play panned out and I can't watch it because I'm at work. 

 

He's great at setting the edge, but I worry about when we play teams like the 49ers, Kaepernick will make lunch meat out of him all day with that read option pass play if he runs up the field like that without containing him.  Rush up the field too far like that, and Kaep's gone.  It's what happened to him last year against hte 49ers (though, that play wasn't entirely his fault, he was on an island and the CB got blocked and safties over pursued and Kaep was off to the races).

 

I'll take a look at Walden's role on those plays. From memory, on Manuel's big run, Walden got a solid pass rush, but no one was up the middle. It was man coverage, we couldn't get to the quarterback, and the QB had a ton of room to run. But I'll have to look more closely to see if there was a breakdown.

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I'll take a look at Walden's role on those plays. From memory, on Manuel's big run, Walden got a solid pass rush, but no one was up the middle. It was man coverage, we couldn't get to the quarterback, and the QB had a ton of room to run. But I'll have to look more closely to see if there was a breakdown.

If anything, it'd be good to have some perspective from someone else.  Maybe I'm grading the guy too hard because I am one of the guys who wants Walden to do well.  It's ironic how I defend a guy that everyone picks on and I'm the harsher critic, lol.

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I'd like to ask you a few serious questions, give me your opinion if you like  -

 

Do you understand what preseason is about?  Do you understand the difference in how teams game plan for real games?  

 

Do you think creating a pass rush is more important than evaluating players, especially second and third stringers?

 

Do you think the outcome of a preseason game is important?

 

Thanks.

Yes, and Yes. pass rush question, well it all works together if no pass rush the cb's looks bad so how can u evaluate the db's?

do I think the outcome of game is important? not really, but it seems in this game (that was first game for the bills as well as us) and they are evaluating players also... it seems as they were not ready to play (this I feel is a coaching concern).

 

we have always had poor preseason games, however we had PM without a lot of stars especially on the D and they played the same way during the season. this is what i'm concerned about. I was thinking that our backups were much better than in the PM's days.

I was also asked do I think there will be roster changes of people that should make the team. well maybe losing their starting positions if not improved and I will start at left tackle followed by right Guard

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I really thought our backups would be better this year. does anyone who is watching this game see anything positive to report.

 

I'm not seeing any of the names on the D side making plays that I thought would be so much improvement.

 

Are we getting any pass rush?

 

 

The sky is not falling its just 1 preseason game . :deadhorse::Nuke:  

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