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Welker still yapping...talks about Manning not throwing to him


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No, no, no. Don't conflate all these separate issues into one.

 

I'm talking very specifically about the prevailing idea among Pats fans (and so far, exclusive to Pats fans, so far as I can tell) that Wes Welker was "made" by the Pats. The idea that any negative feelings he has regarding his time there or his departure are simply because he's hurt that they didn't keep him. This seems to be motivated by a "good riddance, he wasn't that good anyways, we don't need him" kind of attitude.

 

You mentioned that people need to pay attention to the whole story, not just what ESPN reports. Let's do that. Bob Kraft suggested that the Pats made a better offer than the Broncos did. And Welker chose the Broncos. 

 

It's true that the Patriots offered even more a couple years ago, but that's not really at issue here. Welker wanted a longer deal, and the Patriots weren't interested. The market changed, his value changed, and negotiations changed. That doesn't change the fact that Welker chose to leave the Pats. They didn't tell him that it was time to move on.

 

The other things you mention really don't have bearing on the discussion. Sure, they may have had an effect on the way the Pats valued him, and may have influenced their desire to change the structure of their passing attack. I can get with all that. But it's not really pertinent.

 

Welker didn't appreciate the way he was treated toward the end in New England. He didn't appreciate the contract negotiations (that was evident throughout the entire two year period that they were discussing a new deal). He didn't enjoy being derided in front of his teammates. It seems pretty obvious that, money aside, he allowed those things to play a factor in his decision making as a free agent.

 

Back to the original thought, he should have kept his mouth shut. Absolutely. His comments are really not appropriate. But remember: Welker walked away from the Pats offer. It seems obvious now why he did so. And it's just funny to me that, now that he's gone, he's suddenly easily replaceable, and somehow overrated. He represents 25% of the Pats passing attack. You can find ways to make up for his departure, for sure, but he will be missed. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

 

you know you claim my points are not pertinent or that I am trying combine a bunch of things into one item . . . but there are pertinent to the OT and the cited article . . . . the issue in question has to do with Welker's comments and if he was or was not justified in making them and further should he have made them . . . 

 

Regarding being berated in front of his teammates, one much look at his actions with the team to determine if he should or should not be berated . . . and as such, what is pertinent to this point, whether some want to hear it or not, are actions by him that might not be square with the team's ability to move forward and succeed, the teams policies, and his comments towards teammates and coaches . .  all that I did was make simply list of keys points in Welker's career here in NE which fall under these catergories . . that is all . . . and I came to the conclusion that a player could be berated by his coaches for these actions . . .

 

And I am sorry I am not going to back off from the point that Welker was offer 16 mil, yes he wanted a longer contract but he is a 32 year old slot receiver and we do not know how much tread is on his tires . .. the pats are famous for letting some one go a year early as opposed to a year too late . . . surely at times it does not work out like AV (altho his kickoffs were not great when we let him go) but more often than not we don't make mistake . . . but the point is this is how we treat all of our vets, and Welker is no different

 

Welker and his agent wanted top dollar and a big contract, and fair or not, slot receiver do not garner this . . . either way, it was not like we were trying to get blood out of a stone . . . and I am sorry I do not accept your comments or others about the market going down . . . Welker is playing for 75% of what the pats offered him and the WR market did not drop 25% in one year . . .that is just illogical . . .

 

Welker is well versed in the media, through training here in NE and simply evident by some of his presser (the slight of hand footsy comments) . . . also, Welker is well trained in knowing that questions can be asked, and given that he left NE which was a big media deal, that he is part of the power shift in the AFC, he was on full notice that he was going to be asked questions regarding the same . . . (is not like someone asked Jamaal Charles if he likes chocolate) . . .  and so he knew it was coming and that his comments will be reviewed and analyzed . . . and he choose words like having to "endure him" "put up with him" "I am worried what he might think" and so on, which I find out of place and he should not have made them . . . 

 

given the state of our economy a guy making 9.5 MILLION dollars for about 6 months work should not complain, sorry I don't buy it . . . he is very lucky to have his skill set be that of football (as opposed to being the best grocery bagger in the world) . . . and football is a very popular sport and garners tons of money for players . . . but it is also a sport that has a mocho attitudes and guys like to yell . .. one must take the good with the bad . . .

 

lastly, you claim you don't have a personal feeling on the matter, but you have been spending a lot of time and ink on this matter in this thread and mostly taking sides opposite of amfootball and anyone else who casts a suspicious eye towards welkers comments . .. who knows he might be right, he may have been berated on a daily basis . ..however, maybe his is not correct and was only berated a handful of times and such times came after some of my cited points . . .  and if you had no feelings you would see each side the same as opposed to backing the employee welker . . .

 

just as some back drop here in NE, the pats do not like it when you go public and go against the team . . . or violate our teams polices, both of which welker did prior to leaving . . .

 

I like welker, but like any present or ex player, if you cross me or the team, my view of you will change, regardless of your past good will . . .

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Sends him off? . . . if Welker accepted the pats offer of 16 mil for two years, he would still be in NE making 8 mil this year instead of playing in Denver at 6 mil . . . not sure what your send off point was . . .

And manning is not beyond belittling his mates, he does is and it has been on camera . . . and so does BB . . . to say that manning is some kind of saint and does not belittle his mates is just crazy talk . . . does he do it constantly no, but has done it and has been caught on camera . . .

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Sends him off? . . . if Welker accepted the pats offer of 16 mil for two years, he would still be in NE making 8 mil this year instead of playing in Denver at 6 mil . . . not sure what your send off point was . . .

And manning is not beyond belittling his mates, he does is and it has been on camera . . . and so does BB . . . to say that manning is some kind of saint and does not belittle his mates is just crazy talk . . . does he do it constantly no, but has done it and has been caught on camera . . .

pure idiocracy. when did i call Manning a saint?! wth is wrong with people on this forum? just love dumping words in others mouths. wth is going on.

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you know you claim my points are not pertinent or that I am trying combine a bunch of things into one item . . . but there are pertinent to the OT and the cited article . . . . the issue in question has to do with Welker's comments and if he was or was not justified in making them and further should he have made them . . .

I'm gonna indulge you here, even though we've beaten all of this to death. Let me start with just saying that I don't care whether anyone else thinks Welker's comments were justified or not. Even if they were justified, he still shouldn't have said it publicly.

Beyond that, his comments were an extension of his feelings, and I don't think any of us have the right to say how someone should or should not feel about the way they were treated.

 

Regarding being berated in front of his teammates, one much look at his actions with the team to determine if he should or should not be berated . . . and as such, what is pertinent to this point, whether some want to hear it or not, are actions by him that might not be square with the team's ability to move forward and succeed, the teams policies, and his comments towards teammates and coaches . .  all that I did was make simply list of keys points in Welker's career here in NE which fall under these catergories . . that is all . . . and I came to the conclusion that a player could be berated by his coaches for these actions . . .

Sometimes a dressing down is called for. I've never made a judgment about whether he should have been treated in a certain way. I only said that it's not surprising that a grown man doesn't want to be berated in front of his peers.

And that's why I say you're conflating separate issues. It's not really about whether he deserved to be treated in any way.

 

And I am sorry I am not going to back off from the point that Welker was offer 16 mil, yes he wanted a longer contract but he is a 32 year old slot receiver and we do not know how much tread is on his tires . .. the pats are famous for letting some one go a year early as opposed to a year too late

I don't need you to back off of that. There's nothing wrong with that. But Welker wanted more, and then he chose to leave. Which, by the way, is a little tidbit that gets glossed over. The Pats didn't let him go, like they did with Deion Branch or Richard Seymour or Adam Vinatieri. They made a competitive offer, and he turned them down to go somewhere else.

 

Welker and his agent wanted top dollar and a big contract, and fair or not, slot receiver do not garner this . . . either way, it was not like we were trying to get blood out of a stone . . . and I am sorry I do not accept your comments or others about the market going down . . . Welker is playing for 75% of what the pats offered him and the WR market did not drop 25% in one year . . .that is just illogical . . .

Just look at the difference between what the Pats offered him this year and what they offered him in the past. Welker's market absolutely dropped.

 

Welker is well versed in the media . . . and he choose words like having to "endure him" "put up with him" "I am worried what he might think" and so on, which I find out of place and he should not have made them . . .

Again, I don't think Welker should have said what he said. I think I've said that enough times for you to not worry about wasting any more text on it.

 

given the state of our economy a guy making 9.5 MILLION dollars for about 6 months work should not complain, sorry I don't buy it . . . he is very lucky to have his skill set be that of football (as opposed to being the best grocery bagger in the world) . . . and football is a very popular sport and garners tons of money for players . . .

This is just nonsense. By that rationale, everyone should just play for $500k a year, they'd still be well off, and there would be no contract disputes ever. That's another discussion entirely.

Welker's issue with the franchise tag is the same as any other player's: he wanted a long term contract. And since we're speaking about a player saying the right or wrong things, I think Welker's comments and actions when he signed the franchise tender last year were right on. When he was tagged, he tweeted that he was glad to be a Patriot and hoped to be one well into the future; he signed the tender two months before the deadline, saying he wouldn't hold out for a new contract; he didn't complain about it after that.

When Wilfork was tagged, he held out of OTAs until he got a new deal, then said it was a slap in the face to be tagged in the first place. Mankins held out through the first half of the season, and accused Kraft of reneging on a promise for a new deal. Compared to them, Welker was a model citizen.

And then when it was time to talk about a deal again, he was rewarded with an even smaller contract offer than the year before. I can understand him not being happy with the way negotiations went.

 

but it is also a sport that has a mocho attitudes and guys like to yell . .. one must take the good with the bad . . .

I acknowledged that. But again, that doesn't mean a player is going to enjoy it. Yes, they're football players, and there's a macho culture, but they are also humans who experience emotions like the rest of us. I'm pretty certain that no player enjoys getting yelled at in front of his teammates.

 

lastly, you claim you don't have a personal feeling on the matter, but you have been spending a lot of time and ink on this matter in this thread and mostly taking sides opposite of amfootball and anyone else who casts a suspicious eye towards welkers comments . .. who knows he might be right, he may have been berated on a daily basis . ..however, maybe his is not correct and was only berated a handful of times and such times came after some of my cited points . . .  and if you had no feelings you would see each side the same as opposed to backing the employee welker . . .

So because I disagree with your viewpoint, that means I have an emotional investment in the topic? No sir, try again.

I've gone back and forth with amfootball, of course against my better judgment, because I wanted to clearly articulate my point of view. That gets difficult when people put words in your mouth, and/or twist what you've said.

It doesn't matter to me whether Welker was berated on a daily basis or not. I don't care. All I'm saying is that I understand him not liking it, because I wouldn't like it, and I don't think anyone else would. I don't think that makes him soft.

 

just as some back drop here in NE, the pats do not like it when you go public and go against the team . . . or violate our teams polices, both of which welker did prior to leaving . . .

No team does. Some of you Patriots fans have this "high and mighty" thing going, as if your team operates on a higher plane than any other team.

 

I like welker, but like any present or ex player, if you cross me or the team, my view of you will change, regardless of your past good will . . .

That's fine. I personally think Welker's comments are rather innocuous. He shouldn't have said what he said, but it's really not the end of the world. It's not like he accused Belichick of inappropriate behavior.

Even still, if you want to view him differently, fine. But just acknowledge it. A year ago, Pats fans by and large wanted Welker to stay. When Brady redid his contract, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. At the start of free agency, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. Now, he's virtually expendable, and good riddance, because he dropped a couple passes in the playoffs. Never mind the fact that he used to represent 25% of your passing offense.

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I'm gonna indulge you here, even though we've beaten all of this to death. Let me start with just saying that I don't care whether anyone else thinks Welker's comments were justified or not. Even if they were justified, he still shouldn't have said it publicly.

Beyond that, his comments were an extension of his feelings, and I don't think any of us have the right to say how someone should or should not feel about the way they were treated.

 

Sometimes a dressing down is called for. I've never made a judgment about whether he should have been treated in a certain way. I only said that it's not surprising that a grown man doesn't want to be berated in front of his peers.

And that's why I say you're conflating separate issues. It's not really about whether he deserved to be treated in any way.

 

I don't need you to back off of that. There's nothing wrong with that. But Welker wanted more, and then he chose to leave. Which, by the way, is a little tidbit that gets glossed over. The Pats didn't let him go, like they did with Deion Branch or Richard Seymour or Adam Vinatieri. They made a competitive offer, and he turned them down to go somewhere else.

 

Just look at the difference between what the Pats offered him this year and what they offered him in the past. Welker's market absolutely dropped.

 

Again, I don't think Welker should have said what he said. I think I've said that enough times for you to not worry about wasting any more text on it.

 

This is just nonsense. By that rationale, everyone should just play for $500k a year, they'd still be well off, and there would be no contract disputes ever. That's another discussion entirely.

Welker's issue with the franchise tag is the same as any other player's: he wanted a long term contract. And since we're speaking about a player saying the right or wrong things, I think Welker's comments and actions when he signed the franchise tender last year were right on. When he was tagged, he tweeted that he was glad to be a Patriot and hoped to be one well into the future; he signed the tender two months before the deadline, saying he wouldn't hold out for a new contract; he didn't complain about it after that.

When Wilfork was tagged, he held out of OTAs until he got a new deal, then said it was a slap in the face to be tagged in the first place. Mankins held out through the first half of the season, and accused Kraft of reneging on a promise for a new deal. Compared to them, Welker was a model citizen.

And then when it was time to talk about a deal again, he was rewarded with an even smaller contract offer than the year before. I can understand him not being happy with the way negotiations went.

 

I acknowledged that. But again, that doesn't mean a player is going to enjoy it. Yes, they're football players, and there's a macho culture, but they are also humans who experience emotions like the rest of us. I'm pretty certain that no player enjoys getting yelled at in front of his teammates.

 

So because I disagree with your viewpoint, that means I have an emotional investment in the topic? No sir, try again.

I've gone back and forth with amfootball, of course against my better judgment, because I wanted to clearly articulate my point of view. That gets difficult when people put words in your mouth, and/or twist what you've said.

It doesn't matter to me whether Welker was berated on a daily basis or not. I don't care. All I'm saying is that I understand him not liking it, because I wouldn't like it, and I don't think anyone else would. I don't think that makes him soft.

 

No team does. Some of you Patriots fans have this "high and mighty" thing going, as if your team operates on a higher plane than any other team.

 

That's fine. I personally think Welker's comments are rather innocuous. He shouldn't have said what he said, but it's really not the end of the world. It's not like he accused Belichick of inappropriate behavior.

Even still, if you want to view him differently, fine. But just acknowledge it. A year ago, Pats fans by and large wanted Welker to stay. When Brady redid his contract, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. At the start of free agency, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. Now, he's virtually expendable, and good riddance, because he dropped a couple passes in the playoffs. Never mind the fact that he used to represent 25% of your passing offense.

I wish I had an award for longest post ever. Congrats to you Super for responding to all of that. I didn't read any of it but you know that I vehemently disagree with ALL of your points. :D

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I wish I had an award for longest post ever. Congrats to you Super for responding to all of that. I didn't read any of it but you know that I vehemently disagree with ALL of your points. :D

Of course. All my points are right and make sense. You couldn't possibly agree.

But wait on that award. Yehoodi is going to follow up... ;)

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The more Welker keeps talking this off-season, the happier I am that is no longer a Patriot. I wonder if the Broncs at some point will tell him to put a lid on it as it is Aug. 8 and he STILL has Belichick on his mind. He is very bitter yet he says he would only have played for the Pats or Broncos this season. lol.

 

Interesting note at the end that he says he is having a tough time running the seam route the way Manning wants because he was so used to it doing it one way for the Pats for six years. He says that if he does not run the route the way Manning wants then Manning won't throw it to him. Wondering if some issues are arising there?

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/2013/08/07/treatment-from-bill-belichick-contributed-wes-welker-departure/xubfw5SfY9GZlOT5Vx89sJ/story.html

I read the article and found the title of the thread to be somewhat misleading. While he's still talking about Belichek I see any complaint in his statement that he has to run routes somewhat differently in this offense because he won't be thrown to.

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pure idiocracy. when did i call Manning a saint?! wth is wrong with people on this forum? just love dumping words in others mouths. wth is going on.

 

my point was in response to your representation of BB and his treatment of his players . . . and the point of ignoring how manning yelled at Saturday . . .  you can ignore it if you wish . . . but please do not come this board makes statements about one person (BB) and how he treats people then try to deny that others do not do this . . . 

 

btw Brady has not been against yelling at teammates like with Underwood and Galloway come to mind . . . for me to deny that happened would be wrong, and likewise you the same regarding other players . . . that was my point . . .

 

As much as you might wish to think, all negative, evil, and not so nice things don't only reside in NE. . . .

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Even still, if you want to view him differently, fine. But just acknowledge it. A year ago, Pats fans by and large wanted Welker to stay. When Brady redid his contract, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. At the start of free agency, Pats fans wanted Welker to stay. Now, he's virtually expendable, and good riddance, because he dropped a couple passes in the playoffs. Never mind the fact that he used to represent 25% of your passing offense.

 

Sorry do not know how to multi post so will just do a single pot and try to respond to all of your points, but more importantly just wanted to make some points . . . sorry for not getting back to you earlier but wanted to set aside a few minutes to say a word or two or three or 895 . . . :-)

 

It is understandable that Welker would be upset with the lower number but then again he and his agent overvalued his worth imo which contributed to this mess . . . the pats made an offer that was at least at market value and really over market value and he turned it downed . . . had he just taken offer, he would have been” happy” and furthermore there would have been no franchise tag . . .

 

You mentioned some Pats players, but the difference with their hold outs was that the pats did over good value for Welker, unlike the other players who wanted more money, although with AV they were close and I think AV just wanted to leave the pats too . . . but it was not like they undercut the man . . . he got a sweeter offer than the people you mentioned . . .

I guess we are just going have to agree to disagree with what should or should not be conflated . . . for me it is all related . . . you are in a sport whose trophy bears the name of the biggest berater in the business, you make a TON of money in this sport . . . bottom line if you don’t like it then go play lacrosse or something and make your 75K per year . . . otherwise deal with it  . .. and then when you step outside of the teams internal rules don’t be surprised if things get a little heated . . .  I for one am licensed as a patent attorney but do not practice for a firm, sure I could make a more money but with that might be acid reflux and 80 hr weeks, which is part of the business, if I choose that profession I really can’t complain to people about the long hours, as the hours are part of the job and compensation . . . so whether you want to agree with me or not, if you choose a profession that has certain down sides and you add to that actions that aren’t square with the industry one should expect things to get dicey and should not comment if they do as they are expected  . . .  no one likes to get yelled at or work 80 hours weeks , but if it is part of the job justified or not, its part of the job . . . ultimately we will never know if BB went overboard on singling out Welker or he is overly sensitive, as we do not have footage of all of the team meetings, but given that we don't know, it not out of the question for us fact finders to find that BB was just doing what is normal and that it is part of the business right or wrong . . .

 

But most critically,  my only point for jumping into the thread was just to point out that just because we may not like his comments does not mean we are biased or hate the man . . . fans of a team might very well have “justified” reasons for casting a low brow at a player . . . 

 

Look at the colts Mike Vanderjagt for example . . . great kicker, he “produced” a ton for the team, I think still is the most accurate kicker in the history of football, but has made some ill advised comments “right for the picking” (like footsy presser), has had a few moments at key games where did not produce, 1st game of the 2004 season missing a game tying FG against the pats in a game that decided some playoff seeding, missed a game tying FG against Pitt in the 2006 divisional round . . . then he goes out on David Letterman a short time later and tries the kick in the parking lot and makes it, kind of poking fun at himself . . . now I am sure there were more than a few colts fans that were all too happy with Mr. Vanderjagt and his appearance on David Lettermen  . . . now technically he is entitled to deal with the loss anyway he wishes and poking fun at himself and making light of a terrible loss is his choosing . . .

 

Now if some colts fans dislike this and or cast him aside . . . I am not going to respond by saying “you guys are just bias, hey he ‘produced’ for you, so he made a few boo boos, whats the big deal he was a great producer for your and team and after a tough lost just wanted to deal with it in his own way . . . “

 

Yes Welker was great and I wished we had him to add depth . . . but once you leave for “greener” pastures having already turned downed an earlier and better offer from our team only to go to a rival for less money, did a few things that at key times that were not appreciated by some of the fan base, make comments against our coach and then top it off by making comments after you leave trying to give the impression that it was the teams fault your left, well then you are going to get the ire from me . . . so yes one might be a great producer for a team, but a few ill advised comments, key mistakes and then comments after the season is over might just draw some negative comments from some of a fan base . . . and they are not being bias or saying good riddance . . .    

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Boy, that's was a lot of back and forth about a lot nothin'.....no offense to anyone

 

. . . just a little friendly discussion among internet friends where we are simply exchanging and idea or two . . . or maybe three . . .

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you are in a sport whose trophy bears the name of the biggest berater in the business, you make a TON of money in this sport . . . bottom line if you don’t like it then go play lacrosse or something and make your 75K per year . . . otherwise deal with it 

 

...

 

so whether you want to agree with me or not, if you choose a profession that has certain down sides and you add to that actions that aren’t square with the industry one should expect things to get dicey and should not comment if they do as they are expected 

 

I'm just going to respond to this, because I want to be clear about what I'm saying.

 

It's really not your place to tell someone what they should and should not comment on, or what profession they should choose. It doesn't matter how much money a person makes. If they don't like the way they're treated, it is their business whether they want to comment on that publicly or not.

 

It's not about industry standard, or so-called acceptable behavior. That kind of thinking would express tacit approval for dangerous hazing, discrimination, and other unacceptable "traditions" in the name of industry standard. "This is what happens in the NFL, and you signed up for it, so deal with it." Fortunately, that's not the way the world works.

 

Welker getting treated poorly (in his opinion; like you say, none of us know what really happened, and maybe he is being overly sensitive) is nowhere near as serious as those things I just mentioned. I'm not trying to lump them in together. All I'm saying is that just because this kind of treatment is considered a part of the business doesn't mean that any individual has to pretend that it doesn't bother them. No normal person would enjoy being berated in front of his peers, whether he admits it or not.

 

And as it pertains to Patriots fans calling Welker a whiner, saying he should keep his comments to himself, there simply is no question that your collective feelings on this issue are influenced by the fact that he decided not to stay in New England. It also doesn't help that he went and teamed up with the enemy. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else, but stop claiming that your opinion isn't colored by this perceived slight against your team. It obviously is.

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I'm just going to respond to this, because I want to be clear about what I'm saying.

 

It's really not your place to tell someone what they should and should not comment on, or what profession they should choose. It doesn't matter how much money a person makes. If they don't like the way they're treated, it is their business whether they want to comment on that publicly or not.

 

It's not about industry standard, or so-called acceptable behavior. That kind of thinking would express tacit approval for dangerous hazing, discrimination, and other unacceptable "traditions" in the name of industry standard. "This is what happens in the NFL, and you signed up for it, so deal with it." Fortunately, that's not the way the world works.

 

Welker getting treated poorly (in his opinion; like you say, none of us know what really happened, and maybe he is being overly sensitive) is nowhere near as serious as those things I just mentioned. I'm not trying to lump them in together. All I'm saying is that just because this kind of treatment is considered a part of the business doesn't mean that any individual has to pretend that it doesn't bother them. No normal person would enjoy being berated in front of his peers, whether he admits it or not.

 

And as it pertains to Patriots fans calling Welker a whiner, saying he should keep his comments to himself, there simply is no question that your collective feelings on this issue are influenced by the fact that he decided not to stay in New England. It also doesn't help that he went and teamed up with the enemy. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else, but stop claiming that your opinion isn't colored by this perceived slight against your team. It obviously is.

 

 

"And as it pertains to Patriots fans calling Welker a whiner, saying he should keep his comments to himself, there simply is no question that your collective feelings on this issue are influenced by the fact that he decided not to stay in New England. It also doesn't help that he went and teamed up with the enemy. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else, but stop claiming that your opinion isn't colored by this perceived slight against your team. It obviously is."

 

 

 

 

Ya think so ?

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I'm just going to respond to this, because I want to be clear about what I'm saying.

 

It's really not your place to tell someone what they should and should not comment on, or what profession they should choose. It doesn't matter how much money a person makes. If they don't like the way they're treated, it is their business whether they want to comment on that publicly or not.

 

It's not about industry standard, or so-called acceptable behavior. That kind of thinking would express tacit approval for dangerous hazing, discrimination, and other unacceptable "traditions" in the name of industry standard. "This is what happens in the NFL, and you signed up for it, so deal with it." Fortunately, that's not the way the world works.

 

Welker getting treated poorly (in his opinion; like you say, none of us know what really happened, and maybe he is being overly sensitive) is nowhere near as serious as those things I just mentioned. I'm not trying to lump them in together. All I'm saying is that just because this kind of treatment is considered a part of the business doesn't mean that any individual has to pretend that it doesn't bother them. No normal person would enjoy being berated in front of his peers, whether he admits it or not.

 

And as it pertains to Patriots fans calling Welker a whiner, saying he should keep his comments to himself, there simply is no question that your collective feelings on this issue are influenced by the fact that he decided not to stay in New England. It also doesn't help that he went and teamed up with the enemy. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else, but stop claiming that your opinion isn't colored by this perceived slight against your team. It obviously is.

Wow. How can you state as fact that which is clearly an opinion?

I know plenty of non-Patriot fans who say that Welker is a whiner. Several are Colt fans.

But apparently you know the minds of all the Patriot fans here.

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Wow. How can you state as fact that which is clearly an opinion?

I know plenty of non-Patriot fans who say that Welker is a whiner. Several are Colt fans.

But apparently you know the minds of all the Patriot fans here.

 

Whether non-Patriot fans think Welker is a whiner or not doesn't have a bearing on whether Patriots fans opinion is influenced.

 

And I said "collectively," not every individual Patriot fan.

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Whether non-Patriot fans think Welker is a whiner or not doesn't have a bearing on whether Patriots fans opinion is influenced.

 

And I said "collectively," not every individual Patriot fan.

 

 

Good luck with this one. When some of the Pat fans don't want to even concede that the market changed between 2012 and 2013 , you are pretty much banging your head against the all. Fact is the players association may very well charge the owners with collusion before this 2013 free agent "issue" is finished. I'll just post one of many links to articles supporting this. 

 

The short of the "market conditions " you and others referred to was that after a few highly valued players were signed , the signings came to a halt. Many players had to resort to one year deals as they found the market to be far below what it was in 2012. Players like Welker really could not afford to gamble like some of the younger guys did for obvious age related reasons. To simple state that the "market didn't go down THAT much " as one Pat fan said is a pretty big understatement as to what was happening. Players and agents would even tend to panic a bit and be more apt to take a deal less than what they thought was correct money. 

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Now that's a cool card.

 

Welker "yapping" topic title. Reminds me of an old Honeymooner episode when Alice tells Ralph you forget I'm a woman and he says "how can I forget, you're always yapping"   lol

sorry- I love that show:)

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Good luck with this one. When some of the Pat fans don't want to even concede that the market changed between 2012 and 2013 , you are pretty much banging your head against the all. Fact is the players association may very well charge the owners with collusion before this 2013 free agent "issue" is finished. I'll just post one of many links to articles supporting this. 

 

The short of the "market conditions " you and others referred to was that after a few highly valued players were signed , the signings came to a halt. Many players had to resort to one year deals as they found the market to be far below what it was in 2012. Players like Welker really could not afford to gamble like some of the younger guys did for obvious age related reasons. To simple state that the "market didn't go down THAT much " as one Pat fan said is a pretty big understatement as to what was happening. Players and agents would even tend to panic a bit and be more apt to take a deal less than what they thought was correct money. 

Hi Dw,

 

I am not sure what your point is here or why Pats fans would not agree that the market did change between 2012 and 2013? The Pats had offered Welker a deal during the 2011 off-season which he turned down. It was two years at $8 mil/year. The money was good for him but not the years. He was 30 at the time. So he was franchised in 2012 and made $9.5 mil which was good for him and the Pats too as he had 100+ catches.

 

I don't think the market changing in 2013 hurt him as much as the fact that he was 32, led the league in drops, lost a step on speed, and most GMs saw him as a guy that had the type of production he did because of the design of the Pats offense and Brady. Like you said, some guys like Wallace hit the jackpot this off-season so the money was there but for Welker I think there were just too many factors going against him which is why he ended up taking a deal under what the Pats offered him in 2011. His agent rolled the dice and lost.

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Hi Dw,

 

I am not sure what your point is here or why Pats fans would not agree that the market did change between 2012 and 2013? The Pats had offered Welker a deal during the 2011 off-season which he turned down. It was two years at $8 mil/year. The money was good for him but not the years. He was 30 at the time. So he was franchised in 2012 and made $9.5 mil which was good for him and the Pats too as he had 100+ catches.

 

I don't think the market changing in 2013 hurt him as much as the fact that he was 32, led the league in drops, lost a step on speed, and most GMs saw him as a guy that had the type of production he did because of the design of the Pats offense and Brady. Like you said, some guys like Wallace hit the jackpot this off-season so the money was there but for Welker I think there were just too many factors going against him which is why he ended up taking a deal under what the Pats offered him in 2011. His agent rolled the dice and lost.

 

 

My point was that there was an issue on whether or not the free agent market had gone down in 2013. I'm not even sure how it related to Welker "whinning" or not "whining". Someone ( a Pat fan.. not you)  stated that the free agent market had not gone significantly down. My point is that it did. Yes Wallace got a big payday , but most others were left holding the bag. In 2012 second tier CB's were getting 10 mill plus. This year comparable guys were signing 1 year deals at 7 mill.  Hugely different... for the chuckles , click on the link I provided and read the short article. You might be too young to remember , but MLB was found guilty of this very thing and paid a huge price.

 

BTW... I think Welker did fine with what he will collect from 2012-2014. Not the point...

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My point was that there was an issue on whether or not the free agent market had gone down in 2013. I'm not even sure how it related to Welker "whinning" or not "whining". Someone ( a Pat fan.. not you)  stated that the free agent market had not gone significantly down. My point is that it did. Yes Wallace got a big payday , but most others were left holding the bag. In 2012 second tier CB's were getting 10 mill plus. This year comparable guys were signing 1 year deals at 7 mill.  Hugely different... for the chuckles , click on the link I provided and read the short article. You might be too young to remember , but MLB was found guilty of this very thing and paid a huge price.

 

BTW... I think Welker did fine with what he will collect from 2012-2014. Not the point...

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't see a link. Do you mind re-posting?

 

It is interesting, isn't it? Most owners said it was the flat cap that made them not spend this season. But I remember listening to sports radio here a few months ago and one of the hosts was saying how it was weird that so many of the teams were acting like the Pats and not spending the first few days of FA which they said is like shopping at Tiffany's as compared to later in FA when you can get Walmart prices. So there may be something to do it. But this year's FA class did see kind of weak IMO so I am not sure how much that factored in as compared to last year.

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Whether non-Patriot fans think Welker is a whiner or not doesn't have a bearing on whether Patriots fans opinion is influenced.

And I said "collectively," not every individual Patriot fan.

Still doesnt change the fact that your statement was simply an opinion, and not fact. There were many Patriot fans who were unhappy with Welker's mouth before he left NE.

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Thanks for clarifying. I didn't see a link. Do you mind re-posting?

 

It is interesting, isn't it? Most owners said it was the flat cap that made them not spend this season. But I remember listening to sports radio here a few months ago and one of the hosts was saying how it was weird that so many of the teams were acting like the Pats and not spending the first few days of FA which they said is like shopping at Tiffany's as compared to later in FA when you can get Walmart prices. So there may be something to do it. But this year's FA class did see kind of weak IMO so I am not sure how much that factored in as compared to last year.

 

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2013/04/03/union-asks-agents-for-any-evidence-of-collusion-by-nfl-teams/

 

 

 Link didnt work the first time

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Still doesnt change the fact that your statement was simply an opinion, and not fact. There were many Patriot fans who were unhappy with Welker's mouth before he left NE.

 

First off, I didn't say every Patriots fan feels any certain way. 

 

Second, even if some had issues with Welker's mouth before he left, that doesn't mean that him leaving hasn't influenced their opinion of him.

 

Third, before Welker left, the overwhelming sentiment among Patriots fans on this board -- particularly the ones participating in this thread -- was that they wanted him to stay. Now it's "good riddance." Many have even admitted that him leaving has changed their opinion of him, yet won't admit that they aren't totally objective.

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I don't know about collusion; maybe, maybe not. But there's no denying that the money that was being handed out in 2012 dried up in 2013. And blaming it on the flat cap just doesn't work, because the cap was flat the year before.

 

Just look at Cliff Avril. The Lions offered him three years, $30m, in 2012. He didn't get hurt, he didn't have a poor year, and he's still in his prime. Yet he was only able to get two years, $15m. He was asking for $12m/year. Four years older, Robert Mathis got $9m/year in 2012. It's plainly obvious that the free agent market was more restrictive this year than it was last year.

 

Personally, I think teams being frugal is a good thing. The market rises because teams are willing to meet players' demands. Desean Jackson set the market for Mike Wallace, and I don't think either of them are worth the money they signed for. But when teams hold tight against guys like Cliff Avril, it resets the market for guys like Umenyiora, Abraham, Freeney, Harrison, etc. 

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I don't know about collusion; maybe, maybe not. But there's no denying that the money that was being handed out in 2012 dried up in 2013. And blaming it on the flat cap just doesn't work, because the cap was flat the year before.

 

Just look at Cliff Avril. The Lions offered him three years, $30m, in 2012. He didn't get hurt, he didn't have a poor year, and he's still in his prime. Yet he was only able to get two years, $15m. He was asking for $12m/year. Four years older, Robert Mathis got $9m/year in 2012. It's plainly obvious that the free agent market was more restrictive this year than it was last year.

 

Personally, I think teams being frugal is a good thing. The market rises because teams are willing to meet players' demands. Desean Jackson set the market for Mike Wallace, and I don't think either of them are worth the money they signed for. But when teams hold tight against guys like Cliff Avril, it resets the market for guys like Umenyiora, Abraham, Freeney, Harrison, etc. 

 

 

 

Nor am I saying collusion took place as I really don't have good info on the dynamics that made 2013 a rougher players market that 2012. I was just providing some back up for those that didn't think there was significant differences in the two periods. 

 

Mathis to Avril is a great comparison. It was just all over the board . All of a sudden Jake Long is not worth even 9 mill per year. Hopefully the QB pay will slow down as that still seems to be escalating. Guys really don't need to make 22 mill per..

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Nor am I saying collusion took place as I really don't have good info on the dynamics that made 2013 a rougher players market that 2012. I was just providing some back up for those that didn't think there was significant differences in the two periods. 

 

Mathis to Avril is a great comparison. It was just all over the board . All of a sudden Jake Long is not worth even 9 mill per year. Hopefully the QB pay will slow down as that still seems to be escalating. Guys really don't need to make 22 mill per..

 

I get the feeling QB pay will stagnate, but I don't think it will decrease for the upper echelon guys. I think more mid tier guys will get upper echelon money (Flacco), but the teams will hold firm before they start handing out $22-25m/year.

 

Long is a good example, but at least there were injury concerns. Teams were interested, but wondered if he was going to be healthy, and if he was going to get back to playing the way he played in the past. Avril didn't have any of those issues. His market just disappeared.

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Can the name of the thread be changed ? Too

 

 

 am still yapping about Welker still yapping...talks about Manning not throwing to him :thmup:

 

Six pages and still going ... lots here yapping about Welker and Manning not throwing to him. :thmsup:

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Hi Southwest, I know we have had this conversation before but I think it was intentional that Kraft made it personal because of the media storm that arose over Welker signing elsewhere for $1 mil more a year. He is a personal guy and has done this before with other players departures, e.g. Bledsoe, Milloy, Seymour. It is a family to Kraft so he treats it like that privately and publicly. You can dislike it but i don't think it was a PR gaffe at all. He was trying to convey his emotion to the fanbase which was stunned given the Brady deal and all. He was both sad and upset and I agree that both came across.

I get what you're saying amfootball. There's nothing wrong with developing close bonds with players a family atmosphere as you suggest. However, once they leave your organization & go play for another squad, you need to cut bait completely & move on with no regrets publicly. Once they retire, an owner can embrace Wes with open arms. I still have an immense amount of respect for Robert Kraft & your stellar franchise buddy. I don't hold it against him personally. Just a brief, minor hiccup that won't matter at all once the regular season rolls around. 

 

Here is what I would have said in Robert's shoes regarding losing Welker to the Broncos: "Sadly, this franchise could not reach a contract agreement with Wes &, much to my chagrin, he has decided to leave us & play ball with Peyton Manning. All of Patriot's nation is shocked by this move, but we appreciate all his contributions to this organization & wish him the best on his new team & in his new city. Wes will always be beloved here in Foxboro. That will never ever change." The one thing an owner never does is bring up contract numbers namely what was offered & what was rejected. GMs can bring up fiscal numbers publicly, but never owners; they need to appear above the fray. JMO.  

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For the love of yapping, please close this thread!!! :)

Well other than a few posts removed for personal shots its not a hate war thread. It's run it's course but I don't believe in closing a thread just because of that. Now if no one yaps anymore then it will just fall off the 1st page and in to the scrap heap :)

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I get what you're saying amfootball. There's nothing wrong with developing close bonds with players a family atmosphere as you suggest. However, once they leave your organization & go play for another squad, you need to cut bait completely & move on with no regrets publicly. Once they retire, an owner can embrace Wes with open arms. I still have an immense amount of respect for Robert Kraft & your stellar franchise buddy. I don't hold it against him personally. Just a brief, minor hiccup that won't matter at all once the regular season rolls around. 

 

Here is what I would have said in Robert's shoes regarding losing Welker to the Broncos: "Sadly, this franchise could not reach a contract agreement with Wes &, much to my chagrin, he has decided to leave us & play ball with Peyton Manning. All of Patriot's nation is shocked by this move, but we appreciate all his contributions to this organization & wish him the best on his new team & in his new city. Wes will always be beloved here in Foxboro. That will never ever change." The one thing an owner never does is bring up contract numbers namely what was offered & what was rejected. GMs can bring up fiscal numbers publicly, but never owners; they need to appear above the fray. JMO.  

As a fan, I can tell you I loved what Kraft did. He rarely talks contracts but understood the fanbase was smarting and wanted answers. I appreciate that about him to be honest. He really gets the fan. He is by no means perfect but as the owner it was his place to talk about it vs.Belichick because it is his money in the end and he also saved Bill from having to say anything which is not his strong suit anyways. Much better coming from Kraft in this particular situation but overall I do not like contract talk but sometimes it is warranted.

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As a fan, I can tell you I loved what Kraft did. He rarely talks contracts but understood the fanbase was smarting and wanted answers. I appreciate that about him to be honest. He really gets the fan. He is by no means perfect but as the owner it was his place to talk about it vs.Belichick because it is his money in the end and he also saved Bill from having to say anything which is not his strong suit anyways. Much better coming from Kraft in this particular situation but overall I do not like contract talk but sometimes it is warranted.

Yes, Wes Welker is special. A darn nice guy & 1 hades of a WR. So, maybe Kraft felt that an exception could & should be made in this case mostly due to all his incredible years of durable, clutch service in NE. I will acknowledge that Wes isn't a young pup anymore, but I still think he can still move the chains on critical 3rd downs. One thing I will admit in favor of Robert Kraft that I truly appreciate is that he knows what to keep in the locker room & off of Twitter/social media. God, I wish Jim Irsay would learn that important lesson. Sigh...

 

I will also admit that NE fans wanted to know the real reason why Welker left Massachusetts. Some say he couldn't handle Bellichick's style of criticism anymore, some say he wanted to play with 2 HOF QBs, some say he wasn't being offered his worth financially based on all his years of loyal Foxboro service, & some say that a new change of scenery is required just to get a fresh, new perspective...

 

At the end of the day, I want both Danny Amendola & Wes Welker to do well. Time to turn the page & play ball...

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We're all entitled to our own opinions...

 

1184997_597761856954931_2032500258_n.jpg

Translation: Women run households & rule the roost &, if men want any playtime behind closed doors, they would be well advised to listen to those who really control the "Magic Kingdom."

 

Message received loud & clear Gramz.  haha

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