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Welker still yapping...talks about Manning not throwing to him


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No, the catalyst for both SB appearances was Tom Brady. I never called Welker the catalyst.

 

And while those other guys -- including Welker -- were super important, they are all replaceable, with enough forethought and luck. The 2007 Patriots didn't need a record setting receiver anymore than they needed a perfect season. They were up 21-3 in the AFCCG in 2006, with bums at receiver. They just needed an upgrade over Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell. It didn't have to be Randy Moss and Wes Welker; it could have been Braylon Edwards and Bobby Engram. Maybe you don't go 16-0, and maybe Brady doesn't throw 50 touchdowns, but the Pats are still a really good team with as good a shot at the Super Bowl as anyone else in the AFC.

 

Welker definitely benefited from Moss and Gronkowski. What you ignore is how much they benefited from his presence and performance. Like I said before, it was a symbiotic relationship. And yes, Welker could have been replaced, probably easier than those two guys. That doesn't mean he wasn't crucial to their success. 

 

We can go through the hypothetical exercise of trying to rewrite history if you'd like, but the truth is that, the way the Patriots were constructed, they relied heavily on Welker in the passing game. And he performed.

Da,da,da, ... and that's all folks.

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And said Pats fan was commenting on Welker's shot at Belichick (I did post a link to the story) hence the unfavorable slant.

 

Spurned lovers? Laughable. Welker is the one appearing like a spurned lover. It is obvious that he wanted to stay with Brady and was upset at Belichick ... to each his own but his comments make him look infantile. A shame as he was a fan fav.

 

So you don't think your comments on Welker bear any reflection on you?

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Pray tell, how so?

Supes....you might as well give it up...when it comes to the Pats this guy couldn't make an objective post if he tried. Not only has his love for Brady gone to his head but appearantly it went to Welkers too and he just can't take it that his Belichek took his boy crush away....please...the title of this thread is rediculous as are most of the posts...Welker answered some questions....HONESTLY...with cander...instead of covering up any truth or worrying about giving any details...something he feels he can do in an organization that doesn't keep as tight a control on its players. Nothing wrong with what he said and I doubt even Bill thinks anything bad about it. He isn't a whiner...he hardly seems like he is heart broken that he is in Denver. I'm sure he would have enjoyed staying with the teammates he had given so much of his energy and heart to but that wasn't to be...and he was just saying what EVERYONE knew....that it was Bill that ran him out.....he knew it...Bill knows it...we all know it...and objective NE fan's know it...and even AM knows it....but instead we have to hear about how whiney the guy is when the guy simple stated what everyone already knows....Bill's and butt...a great coach...but an butt...doesn't mean anything especially but aparently if you state it...well...we see how some attack it. Funny the difference we hold our ex-colts to from how some other fans do there ex-players. I'm glad most on here appreciate them or at least stay pretty objective about it.

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Supes....you might as well give it up...when it comes to the Pats this guy couldn't make an objective post if he tried. Not only has his love for Brady gone to his head but appearantly it went to Welkers too and he just can't take it that his Belichek took his boy crush away....please...the title of this thread is rediculous as are most of the posts...Welker answered some questions....HONESTLY...with cander...instead of covering up any truth or worrying about giving any details...something he feels he can do in an organization that doesn't keep as tight a control on its players. Nothing wrong with what he said and I doubt even Bill thinks anything bad about it. He isn't a whiner...he hardly seems like he is heart broken that he is in Denver. I'm sure he would have enjoyed staying with the teammates he had given so much of his energy and heart to but that wasn't to be...and he was just saying what EVERYONE knew....that it was Bill that ran him out.....he knew it...Bill knows it...we all know it...and objective NE fan's know it...and even AM knows it....but instead we have to hear about how whiney the guy is when the guy simple stated what everyone already knows....Bill's and butt...a great coach...but an butt...doesn't mean anything especially but aparently if you state it...well...we see how some attack it. Funny the difference we hold our ex-colts to from how some other fans do there ex-players. I'm glad most on here appreciate them or at least stay pretty objective about it.

 

You do realize don't you that had Welker taken the 8 mil per year offer the pats made him a few years ago, he would be still be in NE getting 8 mil this year as opposed to 6 mil in Denver?

 

I think people outside of NE need to know more of what is going on than what they hear on ESPN or read on non pat fan forums . . . just saying . . .

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To much logic in one sitting for you?

 

no but the logic that seems to be missing on this board is the failure to understand the following:

 

A guy turns down an offer over his market value . . .

Speaks out publicly unprovoked against an opponents coach's and his wife against team policy and which rarely if every done by his teammates and does so on the eve of the most important game of that season . . . 

Calls out his coach in public . . .  

Does not accept a long term offer . . .

And given the above can't seem to figure out why his coach rides him here and there (assuming it happened)

And can't figure out why his team is grooming his replacement in the last year that he is on the team . . .

 

People who want to apply logic to the fact pattern would very likely understand the teams and coaches decisions and actions . . .

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You do realize don't you that had Welker taken the 8 mil per year offer the pats made him a few years ago, he would be still be in NE getting 8 mil this year as opposed to 6 mil in Denver?

 

I think people outside of NE need to know more of what is going on than what they hear on ESPN or read on non pat fan forums . . . just saying . . .

Yes. Honestly...he wanted a long term contract...he didn't want to play out the end of the old one and get franchised...be another year older and thus shorten the chance of that final long term contract. Not saying Welker is faultless in the contract thing....not saying Belichek is to blame for everything....but clearly they had a falling out....why sit the best receiver you have for the first two games last year....and ONLY start him after injuries....let's be honest...NE was going down the Randy Moss road with Wes last year until injuries struck...you know it and I know it...and Wes knows it. Wes spoke out about it....don't think that he is a whiner or complainer...everyone knows he felt unhappy with how they handled the contract or Bill's handling of him...doesn't make Bill or him a bad guy. Bill's an butt because BILL IS AN butt...but he is also a GREAT COACH...much like Parcells...Tony Larussa...Bobby Knight...but because Wes didn't appreciate how he got treated...hardly makes him what some where trying to call him out as. There are a few people on this forum...Colts fans and other team fans that like to make drama over anything....there is no drama here except a few poster's wild imaginations.

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no but the logic that seems to be missing on this board is the failure to understand the following:

 

A guy turns down an offer over his market value . . .

Speaks out publicly unprovoked against an opponents coach's and his wife against team policy and which rarely if every done by his teammates and does so on the eve of the most important game of that season . . . 

Calls out his coach in public . . .  

Does not accept a long term offer . . .

And given the above can't seem to figure out why his coach rides him here and there (assuming it happened)

And can't figure out why his team is grooming his replacement in the last year that he is on the team . . .

 

People who want to apply logic to the fact pattern would very likely understand the teams and coaches decisions and actions . . .

8 million isn't above his market value...we will never know but I very much believe that Denver got a steal and very much believe that other teams last year would easily give him more than that 8 mill if he would have been a FA. I'm with you on most of the other stuff...he didn't fit in so well with the teams culture...no doubt...it probably affected how Belichek coached him....and yeah...we know it isn't unusual for Bill to do that. I think Wes probably thought he was more important...a leader of the team...and might get treated better than some of the others...idk...but most guys...don't appreciate being phased out because of a contract dispute...especially after providing so much for the team...coming back from injury so quickly...and providing pro bowl numbers year in and year out. It is sports...and everyone leaves eventually...but I've got no problem with a guy giving his opinion on how he felt being treated. The POINT isn't whether the Pats where right or Wes is right...the POINT is they can both be right and there is no reason to think Wes a whiner or complainer just because he gave an honest view or opinion of things. Nothing wrong...no news...moving on. To me there is nothing substantial in what he said and I don't get how the OP is trying to portrait the guy.

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Supes....you might as well give it up...when it comes to the Pats this guy couldn't make an objective post if he tried. Not only has his love for Brady gone to his head but appearantly it went to Welkers too and he just can't take it that his Belichek took his boy crush away....please...the title of this thread is rediculous as are most of the posts...Welker answered some questions....HONESTLY...with cander...instead of covering up any truth or worrying about giving any details...something he feels he can do in an organization that doesn't keep as tight a control on its players. Nothing wrong with what he said and I doubt even Bill thinks anything bad about it. He isn't a whiner...he hardly seems like he is heart broken that he is in Denver. I'm sure he would have enjoyed staying with the teammates he had given so much of his energy and heart to but that wasn't to be...and he was just saying what EVERYONE knew....that it was Bill that ran him out.....he knew it...Bill knows it...we all know it...and objective NE fan's know it...and even AM knows it....but instead we have to hear about how whiney the guy is when the guy simple stated what everyone already knows....Bill's and butt...a great coach...but an butt...doesn't mean anything especially but aparently if you state it...well...we see how some attack it. Funny the difference we hold our ex-colts to from how some other fans do there ex-players. I'm glad most on here appreciate them or at least stay pretty objective about it.

Objectivity in general lacks up here ...

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You do realize don't you that had Welker taken the 8 mil per year offer the pats made him a few years ago, he would be still be in NE getting 8 mil this year as opposed to 6 mil in Denver?

 

I think people outside of NE need to know more of what is going on than what they hear on ESPN or read on non pat fan forums . . . just saying . . .

It is like banging your head against a wall Yehoodi. They won't get it. They only see Welker one way. But then again these are the same guys who thought Caldwell was a poor HC at 14-2 and are happy COY Arians is gone ...

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no but the logic that seems to be missing on this board is the failure to understand the following:

 

A guy turns down an offer over his market value . . .

Speaks out publicly unprovoked against an opponents coach's and his wife against team policy and which rarely if every done by his teammates and does so on the eve of the most important game of that season . . . 

Calls out his coach in public . . .  

Does not accept a long term offer . . .

And given the above can't seem to figure out why his coach rides him here and there (assuming it happened)

And can't figure out why his team is grooming his replacement in the last year that he is on the team . . .

 

People who want to apply logic to the fact pattern would very likely understand the teams and coaches decisions and actions . . .

 

No, no, no. Don't conflate all these separate issues into one.

 

I'm talking very specifically about the prevailing idea among Pats fans (and so far, exclusive to Pats fans, so far as I can tell) that Wes Welker was "made" by the Pats. The idea that any negative feelings he has regarding his time there or his departure are simply because he's hurt that they didn't keep him. This seems to be motivated by a "good riddance, he wasn't that good anyways, we don't need him" kind of attitude.

 

You mentioned that people need to pay attention to the whole story, not just what ESPN reports. Let's do that. Bob Kraft suggested that the Pats made a better offer than the Broncos did. And Welker chose the Broncos. 

 

It's true that the Patriots offered even more a couple years ago, but that's not really at issue here. Welker wanted a longer deal, and the Patriots weren't interested. The market changed, his value changed, and negotiations changed. That doesn't change the fact that Welker chose to leave the Pats. They didn't tell him that it was time to move on.

 

The other things you mention really don't have bearing on the discussion. Sure, they may have had an effect on the way the Pats valued him, and may have influenced their desire to change the structure of their passing attack. I can get with all that. But it's not really pertinent.

 

Welker didn't appreciate the way he was treated toward the end in New England. He didn't appreciate the contract negotiations (that was evident throughout the entire two year period that they were discussing a new deal). He didn't enjoy being derided in front of his teammates. It seems pretty obvious that, money aside, he allowed those things to play a factor in his decision making as a free agent.

 

Back to the original thought, he should have kept his mouth shut. Absolutely. His comments are really not appropriate. But remember: Welker walked away from the Pats offer. It seems obvious now why he did so. And it's just funny to me that, now that he's gone, he's suddenly easily replaceable, and somehow overrated. He represents 25% of the Pats passing attack. You can find ways to make up for his departure, for sure, but he will be missed. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

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It is amazes me that you are a moderator. You instigate more bologna than that ThrowingBBS guy ...

 

It does NOT amaze me that you're amazed. I think maybe you don't understand what a forum moderator does.

 

But if you'd like, feel free to contact another moderator or one of the admins to tell them how you feel about me as a moderator. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to hear your thoughts.

 

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=stats&do=leaders

 

In the meantime, feel free to debate on the merits of the posts, rather than hiding behind a weak accusation like you're doing now.

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No, no, no. Don't conflate all these separate issues into one.

 

I'm talking very specifically about the prevailing idea among Pats fans (and so far, exclusive to Pats fans, so far as I can tell) that Wes Welker was "made" by the Pats. The idea that any negative feelings he has regarding his time there or his departure are simply because he's hurt that they didn't keep him. This seems to be motivated by a "good riddance, he wasn't that good anyways, we don't need him" kind of attitude.

 

You mentioned that people need to pay attention to the whole story, not just what ESPN reports. Let's do that. Bob Kraft suggested that the Pats made a better offer than the Broncos did. And Welker chose the Broncos. 

 

It's true that the Patriots offered even more a couple years ago, but that's not really at issue here. Welker wanted a longer deal, and the Patriots weren't interested. The market changed, his value changed, and negotiations changed. That doesn't change the fact that Welker chose to leave the Pats. They didn't tell him that it was time to move on.

 

The other things you mention really don't have bearing on the discussion. Sure, they may have had an effect on the way the Pats valued him, and may have influenced their desire to change the structure of their passing attack. I can get with all that. But it's not really pertinent.

 

Welker didn't appreciate the way he was treated toward the end in New England. He didn't appreciate the contract negotiations (that was evident throughout the entire two year period that they were discussing a new deal). He didn't enjoy being derided in front of his teammates. It seems pretty obvious that, money aside, he allowed those things to play a factor in his decision making as a free agent.

 

Back to the original thought, he should have kept his mouth shut. Absolutely. His comments are really not appropriate. But remember: Welker walked away from the Pats offer. It seems obvious now why he did so. And it's just funny to me that, now that he's gone, he's suddenly easily replaceable, and somehow overrated. He represents 25% of the Pats passing attack. You can find ways to make up for his departure, for sure, but he will be missed. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

Flippity flop - Welker is not being whiny, he has a right to his feelings .... Welker should have kept his mouth shut ... Pats do not get to SBs without Welker ...Welker was not the catalyst...Brady was the reason the Pats did win the rings ... Brady IS the catalyst why the Pats went to the SB.

 

Man, you are one of a kind ....

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Flippity flop - Welker is not being whiny, he has a right to his feelings .... Welker should have kept his mouth shut ...

 

You struggle with the simplest things...

 

I said at the very beginning that Welker shouldn't have said what he said. I haven't changed my tune on that one bit. But there's a large difference between understanding how someone feels and agreeing with their chosen method of expressing how they feel. 

 

Pats do not get to SBs without Welker ...Welker was not the catalyst...Brady was the reason the Pats did win the rings ... Brady IS the catalyst why the Pats went to the SB.

Man, you are one of a kind ....

 

It's not my problem that you struggle with nuance. And by "struggle," I mean you are almost entirely allergic to the very concept.

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Hello sunshine! I was wondering where you were. :-) Where is you "lol?"

The notion of you being the paragon of objectivity left me without an "lol."

They haven't invented an abbreviation that encapsulates that level of amusement.

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The notion of you being the paragon of objectivity left me without an "lol."

They haven't invented an abbreviation that encapsulates that level of amusement.

You using the word "paragon" impresses me to no end. You could trade mark "lol." 

 

I know I am not objective BTW, I can admit unlike others here ...

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You struggle with the simplest things...

 

I said at the very beginning that Welker shouldn't have said what he said. I haven't changed my tune on that one bit. But there's a large difference between understanding how someone feels and agreeing with their chosen method of expressing how they feel. 

 

 

It's not my problem that you struggle with nuance. And by "struggle," I mean you are almost entirely allergic to the very concept.

Nuance=flippity flop.

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Guest TeamLoloJones

The more Welker keeps talking this off-season, the happier I am that is no longer a Patriot. I wonder if the Broncs at some point will tell him to put a lid on it as it is Aug. 8 and he STILL has Belichick on his mind. He is very bitter yet he says he would only have played for the Pats or Broncos this season. lol.

 

Interesting note at the end that he says he is having a tough time running the seam route the way Manning wants because he was so used to it doing it one way for the Pats for six years. He says that if he does not run the route the way Manning wants then Manning won't throw it to him. Wondering if some issues are arising there?

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/2013/08/07/treatment-from-bill-belichick-contributed-wes-welker-departure/xubfw5SfY9GZlOT5Vx89sJ/story.html

Not to add fuel to the fire...but I can't recall Welker saying anything that anyone would argue with.  Plus I refuse to believe money had anything to do with Welker's decision...he wants a ring.  Best chance to get it would be play with Brady or Peyton.  Can't say I wasn't suprised when he went to Denver, but I don't blame him either.  I don't mean that as a slight against the pats.  I can't believe Brad Pitt left Jennifer Aniston, but it was for Angelina after all.  I think that comparision is borderline flawless...haha

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Not to add fuel to the fire...but I can't recall Welker saying anything that anyone would argue with.  Plus I refuse to believe money had anything to do with Welker's decision...he wants a ring.  Best chance to get it would be play with Brady or Peyton.  Can't say I wasn't suprised when he went to Denver, but I don't blame him either.  I don't mean that as a slight against the pats.  I can't believe Brad Pitt left Jennifer Aniston, but it was for Angelina after all.  I think that comparision is borderline flawless... haha

Welker left because Bill made him cry too many times.

 

Pitt left to have babies. Good comparison though.

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You using the word "paragon" impresses me to no end. You could trade mark "lol."

I know I am not objective BTW, I can admit unlike others here ...

Is paragon a big word for you? If I heard the usage of paragon, impressed would be pretty low on my feelings of the word.

Second mention of "lol" as well though I fail to see what your getting at haha, lol, lmao, :), :(.

The point of the emotes, and abbreviations, is to provide inflection to a post. I tend to not take myself very serious and choose to let people know I mean no harm.

Unfortunate I can't trademark a word as cool as "flip flop".......

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Is paragon a big word for you? If I heard the usage of paragon, impressed would be pretty low on my feelings of the word.

Second mention of "lol" as well though I fail to see what your getting at haha, lol, lmao, :), :(.

The point of the emotes, and abbreviations, is to provide inflection to a post. I tend to not take myself very serious and choose to let people know I mean no harm.

Unfortunate I can't trademark a word as cool as "flip flop".......

Are you ok? Just kidding with you man. You always have a "lol" in your posts so I was commenting on that. I love emoticons personally. We have to get our feelings out somehow. Not all of us are as articulate as Welker on what's bothering us.

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Are you ok? Just kidding with you man. You always have a "lol" in your posts so I was commenting on that. I love emoticons personally. We have to get our feelings out somehow. Not all of us are as articulate as Welker on what's bothering us.

I like to lol what can I say.

Life's too short not to lol once a day.

See what happened when I didn't "lol" the tone of my post changed to the point you felt I was offended lol. <============ :)

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My point regarding production it is not like a player necessarily "brings" production to a team like say a great hitter in baseball (who has an even amount of at bats as his teammates and as such one would want a good hitter on ones team) . . . part of the "production" of how much one is targeted; and as such, one can garner more yards therefore appear to be a greater producer than he might otherwise be if he was targeted less . . . it the same principle about those who understand (unlike skip bayless) that just because Welker lead the league in the drops does not mean his has the worst hands in football . . . however, one needs apply this same point to totals and yards and say that since Welker had X yards numbers does not mean he is at X level in the NFL . . . unlike a hitter in baseball, who can not be allowed to hit 4 times in a 9 man batter order, a player in football can get more targets per player . . . and again our last slot receiver was the team's leading receiver

 

 

He wasn't targeted more than most other #1 receivers in the league.

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Guest TeamLoloJones

I will say this...I wish all these athletes would just shut up and stop complaining for 2 reasons: 1. It's annoying. 2. Save your complaining for that book you have to write after you retire because you are broke and need a book deal to save yourself from bankruptcy.

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It is amazes me that you are a moderator. You instigate more bologna than that ThrowingBBS guy ...

Bear in mind, and others should too, a moderator is also a poster. Nor are they meant to be role models.

Almost every post a moderator posts in public on a topic (much as SM does) is as a poster. Most moderating posts are behind the scenes or short ones in public where the difference is obvious.

So to be clear as example. Lets say you and I get into it. The fact I'm a moderator has nothing to do with the barbs back and forth between us as long as we both follow the rules, no personal insults etc. And if you were getting the best of me I cannot and would not use mod powers to fight back:) Not that you could get the best of me lol;)

There was a friend of mine a while back here who was a moderator but left because so many people called foul mod when he was posting because he happened to have some wit. Some long termers here may know who I mean:)

So you calling foul mod is actually a cop out. Respond with wit:)

PS..Welker had to go because NE is about change;)

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Instead of beating my head against a brick wall...I am going to choose to leave this thread. The thread title was ridiculous and the arguments being made have moved so far off subject its futile to even continue debating or commenting. Guy gave his opinion...and I read the whole SI article and saw nothing wrong with it. The writer even said Wes stopped and changed the subject as to not get personal. This is a non-issue and again....whether it be about tearing down Wes or Rodgers one thing is for certain.....never heard the guy critic good ol Tom. The thread title first was misleading and then the posts  along with it are meritless...moving on...as I would suggest for you too Supes...logic does not compute...

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Are you Pat fans saying that because the free agent market went from a sellers market to a buyers market in 2013 , that the offer the Pat's made Welker "was over the market  ? " Funny but before I retired to sunny CA , I was in the produce industry and sold a lot of companies in the Boston area. I used to bite my tongue when discussing sports with these guys as they really were the worst . LOL and I do like you guys but some things just don't change. Below is an except from a Boston writer on this. I'll post the link to the whole article. Other than a few early signs this year players no doubt took way less money and many had to sign one year deals in hopes of getting what was market value just a year ago.

 

 

 

 

 

New England Patriots receiver Wes Welker does not have the long-term contract he desires, but on the first day of free agency, he might have gained something else -- reassurance of his value in the NFL marketplace.

 

Did you see all those contracts for receivers across the league?

 

In Tampa Bay, Vincent Jackson inked a reported five-year, $55.5 million pact. In Washington, the Redskins doubled up with Pierre Garcon (five years, $42.5 million) and Josh Morgan (two years, $12 million), while Marques Colston re-signed with New Orleans (five years, $40 million) and Reggie Wayne did the same in Indianapolis (three years, $17.5 million). Then late Tuesday,Robert Meachem agreed to a reported four-year, $25.9 million pact with the San Diego Chargers.

 

Patriots Blog

reiss_mike_m.jpgMike Reiss (pictured) and Field Yates have you covered throughout the season. Blog
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While the structure of those contracts is vital to understanding their true value, on the surface, that's $193.4 million spent on six top receivers on the first day of free agency.

 

Then consider that the Chicago Bears traded two third-round draft choices for No. 1 receiver Brandon Marshall, and the opening of free agency was all about the wideout.

 

If you're Welker, who has caught more passes than any player in the NFL over the past five seasons, the deals set the framework for where contract talks would hopefully lead.

 

The Patriots' offer of two years for $16 million during the 2011 season, as reported by the Boston Globe, looks light based on present market conditions for a top receiver. Welker's $9.5 million franchise tag, although on a one-year term, fits more in line with pass-catchers at his level of performance on an average-per-year basis.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7684239/2012-nfl-free-agency-wes-welker-benefit-receivers-big-deals

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    • I've looked pretty deep at the roster in Philly over his tenure there. Aside from having a good OL until 2020, Philly's roster just wasn't that great. WRs were pretty meh IMO. Some decent names, but they just weren't consistent and didn't produce like other WRs in the league. Ertz led them in yardage just about every year. Sure he's great, but when a TE is your leader every year, that says something... They never really had a dominant running game or RB. Decent rushing totals a few years, but the numbers were better than reality. Not sure they had a 1000 yard or go-to RB in all the years Wentz was there. 2017 was a weird year, and I think because of that, folks think Philly's roster was better than it really was.    In short, we all know Luck was the better prospect. But Luck had Reggie and TY day one. And he also came into a well established passing O. RB wise, Indy wasn't really a running team but they did try to add TR and later FG. Their identity was never going to be running though. One could say giving Luck Philly's OL would have put him over the top. One could also say giving Wentz Reggie and TY would have done the same.    The real conversation will come after the season. IMO, I'd put my money on Wentz having close to a 2017 or 2019 season. For the first time, he'll be asked to do less (like Rivers was). Our OL should be top 10. If Campbell stays healthy, our WR unit will be top 10. Our RB room will be top 5. Our O should look conservative early, but capable. Later in the year, not so conservative.
    • That means this whole thread was a lie....  
    • I hate prime time games.    I like the 1 o'clock games.    I need sleep Who do you have them losing to?  Seattle?
    • Bust, injury prone   Eric Stokes, Packers
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