Coyer Defense?????

[1959Colts]

Enough with the excuses. All the Colts apologists will now blame the injuries.

The fact is our defensive scheme stinks. And the other 31 teams know it!

[GoColts8818]

No, we don't. You talk like Brackett is a world beater on pass defense. His drops were not as deep as they used to be on pass D recently, his instincts may have helped a tad but then Brackett would have gotten rolled over even more by Blount in run D, IMO. Can't have everything, that is just how it is. I still prefer Angerer. I could have used a few run blitzes and pass blitzes from the middle, IMO. Angerer could have been used on those more with rotation to the empty spot of the blitzer.

I've said that Brackett wasn't perfect. I just cringe at how quickly Colts fans toss him aside like he's not good. He is good at pass defense which is what we are missing in the middle of the field. Again I've said I like Angerer and I think he's a good player I am just pointing out an area where we are missing Brackett. He's the one linebacker the Colts have kept over the year and there is a reason for that and it's not because he stinks like some fans would make it sound like.

[Smitto]

Honestly I don't think Bill has anything to do with it. Neither Buffalo nor Carolina ran the tampa 2. I put this all on Coyer and Caldwell for not stepping in and doing something about it. As long as Coyer is here, you're right chances are nothing gets changed. I'd like to see a change but if he's not willing to do it then I hope he's gone before the bye week.

Well i dont think the broncos ran a tampa 2 defense when coyer was with them, did they? I actually do think its Bill, he hasnt had that much success with any other franchise so why change what your known for... I just read an article and it was talking about coyer when he first came to indy and it states and i quote "it will be interesting to see how much leway coyer gets from caldwell" soooo idk but the scheme needs to be changed or something.

[GoColts8818]

Anthony Gonzales

But really if either Hughes or Pitcock turns into the player we hoped we were getting this defense is much better. specifically Pitcock.

Who is making next to no money and is in the last year of his deal.

[Jason_]

That's because that's the base defense which is what you do when you get hurt and forced into playing so many young guys. You go back to your base defense. The Bucs did the smart thing and attacked the holes in it knowhing our hands were tied we couldn't really sub and we couldn't adjust.

You might think the Tampa 2 needs to go and you might be right I am not sure I would disagree with that but that's another issue than what happened tonight. The Colts were forced into the base defense because of injuries and the Bucs attacked it.

But that's my point...it wasn't just the bucs that attacked it. The texans attacked it (4/5 for 55 yards), the browns attacked it (8/8 for 68 yards) and the Steelers also attacked it (8/12 for 159 yds and a TD....2 of the incompletions were drops that were all on the fault of the Steeler's WRs.)

[GoColts8818]

Enough with the excuses. All the Colts apologists will now blame the injuries.

The fact is our defensive scheme stinks. And the other 31 teams know it!

It's not an excuse it's the reason. Just because fans don't like the reason doesn't make it an excuse.

I also said in an earlier post I wouldn't disagree with changing the scheme but we aren't going to do it in the middle of the season.

[chad72]

I've said that Brackett wasn't perfect. I just cringe at how quickly Colts fans toss him aside like he's not good. He is good at pass defense which is what we are missing in the middle of the field. Again I've said I like Angerer and I think he's a good player I am just pointing out an area where we are missing Brackett. He's the one linebacker the Colts have kept over the year and there is a reason for that and it's not because he stinks like some fans would make it sound like.

That is why like I said, use blitzing from the MIKE and rotate to that spot, get creative instead of doing the "do the same thing even though it does not work several times and hope it works this time". Packers had tons of injuries on D, but they were able to coach up their guys to make plays on D all year long last year and make plays, coaching does matter.

The scheme does not need to be changed dramatically, it does need to be tweaked situationally, that is not hard to accomplish in the middle of the season.

[OLD FAN MAN]

he did, it just so happened we are playing a bunch of guys who are trying to figure out what is going on out there. You run the base defense when in that spot which they did which is the Tampa 2. The Bucs did the smart thing and attacked the holes in it knowing we couldn't do much to adjust because of the injureis. Again the other team gets paid too. Sometimes it isn't what the Colts did wrong sometimes it's what the other team did right.

these guys who are confused rookies or udfas, are getting big bucks to know their jobs,if they cant cut them, lots of players out there who can ,tampa is the nfls youngst team , no excuse, just bad talent

[mystrymaster]

Who is making next to no money and is in the last year of his deal.

Right but turn his draft pick into

Paul Posluszny

or

Jay Alford

Or turn the Ugoh Pick into

LaMarr Woodley

or

David Harris

Than maybe this defense is different and they are still making next to nothing.

[Jason_]

Well i dont think the broncos ran a tampa 2 defense when coyer was with them, did they? I actually do think its Bill, he hasnt had that much success with any other franchise so why change what your known for... I just read an article and it was talking about coyer when he first came to indy and it states and i quote "it will be interesting to see how much leway coyer gets from caldwell" soooo idk but the scheme needs to be changed or something.

Hm...maybe it's Caldwell then. The fact that player size and strength began increasing the second Dungy left leads me to believe Polian has been getting players that the HC wants and this is why I think it's less likely, though not impossible, that Bill isn't the one married to the tampa 2. It definitely could be though but the change in drafting tendency leads me to think it'd be more on the coaches Hard to say for sure though but like you said, the scheme needs to go.

I've said that Brackett wasn't perfect. I just cringe at how quickly Colts fans toss him aside like he's not good. He is good at pass defense which is what we are missing in the middle of the field. Again I've said I like Angerer and I think he's a good player I am just pointing out an area where we are missing Brackett. He's the one linebacker the Colts have kept over the year and there is a reason for that and it's not because he stinks like some fans would make it sound like.

Without the tampa 2 Brackett isn't missed nearly as much, if at all.

[Jason_]

Also, the base cover 2 isn't so radically different from the tampa 2 that it couldn't be used as the base defense instead. In fact the only inexperienced person that would be affected is whoever is playing at SS between Lefeged and Caldwell. coverage doesn't change much if at all for the CB's in tampa 2 vs. cover 2.

[Mexicolt]

Blount would've IRed Bracket's butt tonight... Angerer is IMO, a potential star, his istincts are just outstanding, has a knack for the ball, great tackler too, he is one season away from being our best defensive player.

[colts52761]

Does coyer know what a lb blitz is?

[Jason_]

Blount would've IRed Bracket's butt tonight... Angerer is IMO, a potential star, his istincts are just outstanding, has a knack for the ball, great tackler too, he is one season away from being our best defensive player.

I really like Angry pat but he is still a little on the small side for MIKE as evidenced by getting dragged or additional yardage against bigger backs. I think a guy like Manti Te'o at 6'2" and 255 lbs would greatly help our defense. Add to that some depth at NT (since we have no backup NT on the active roster), vast improvements to the secondary and lose the tampa 2 (even if just in favor of a standard base cover 2) and our defense would be a lot better.

[GoColts8818]

Without the tampa 2 Brackett isn't missed nearly as much, if at all.

Yeah and the Tampa 2 isn't going to go anywhere in middle of the season that's like saying if we were a running team Peyton Manning wouldn't be missed nearly as much on offense. We aren't one so he is or in the MLB case we are a Tampa 2 team so he is missed.

[GoColts8818]

Does coyer know what a lb blitz is?

Yeah we ran some of them and they didn't get home. Credit the Bucs o-line they played well too. We ran a lot of them at the end of the game and still couldn't stop the run.

[Jason_]

Yeah and the Tampa 2 isn't going to go anywhere in middle of the season that's like saying if we were a running team Peyton Manning wouldn't be missed nearly as much on offense. We aren't one so he is or in the MLB case we are a Tampa 2 team so he is missed.

I see the point but like I said, the difference between the tampa 2 and base cover 2 is marginal so the cover 2 could easily be made the base defense instead of the tampa 2. If we were talking about switching from the tampa 2 to 3-4 or some kind of drastic change like that then I'd agree with you, but the switch from tampa 2 to base cover 2 would be very easy to make. Especially when you consider they run a lot of base cover 2 anyway even on passing downs.

[HitStick21]

How about we just bring back Dungy (which I don't think is as farfetched as some think... Eric is at Oregon now, he left to see his last high-school years), let go of Coyer... and take away Clyde's playcalling duties. I cannot sleep with the fact we threw on 3rd and inches. I don't care if it is just Delone vs 11. If you cannot pick up inches on 3rd, you should pack up and go home. If you cannot do it yet AGAIN on 4th, you should forfeit the season. That was inexcusable. The one credit I give him is the creative screens to Wayne/Garcon. Normally, this are horrid like last year and result in nothing. However, the blocking was very well executed so props to those calls. Also, the fake handoff, screen pass to addai that Addai dropped would have gone the distance. Good call.

Coyer... hmm... Can't think of a defining "play".

Caldwell: I tried so hard to root for you, but game after game I begin to lose faith.

Coyer: Show me something...

Clyde: Stay consistent and grow some and Peyton will let you keep your job next year. You've got the intelligence, there is no doubt; use it and be aggressive. Stop saying, "Oh, we don't have these guys on the line..." Your excuses echo down to the team, who will make excuses.

[Jason_]

How about we just bring back Dungy (which I don't think is as farfetched as some think... Eric is at Oregon now, he left to see his last high-school years), let go of Coyer... and take away Clyde's playcalling duties. I cannot sleep with the fact we threw on 3rd and inches. I don't care if it is just Delone vs 11. If you cannot pick up inches on 3rd, you should pack up and go home. If you cannot do it yet AGAIN on 4th, you should forfeit the season. That was inexcusable. The one credit I give him is the creative screens to Wayne/Garcon. Normally, this are horrid like last year and result in nothing. However, the blocking was very well executed so props to those calls. Also, the fake handoff, screen pass to addai that Addai dropped would have gone the distance. Good call.

Coyer... hmm... Can't think of a defining "play".

Caldwell: I tried so hard to root for you, but game after game I begin to lose faith.

Coyer: Show me something...

Clyde: Stay consistent and grow some and Peyton will let you keep your job next year. You've got the intelligence, there is no doubt; use it and be aggressive. Stop saying, "Oh, we don't have these guys on the line..." Your excuses echo down to the team, who will make excuses.

No way...if we bring back Dungy then all of the bigger, stronger guys we've been acquiring over the past 3 years are gone. Dungy is the reason our D was so ridiculously undersized all those years.

[chad72]

No way...if we bring back Dungy then all of the bigger, stronger guys we've been acquiring over the past 3 years are gone. Dungy is the reason our D was so ridiculously undersized all those years.

Will Monte Kiffin leave the USC job and be DC for us (j/k)? Can someone give me a history of how Monte Kiffin's Ds in college/pro level were w.r.t zone pass coverage and generating turnovers?

[Jason_]

Will Monte Kiffin leave the USC job and be DC for us (j/k)? Can someone give me a history of how Monte Kiffin's Ds in college/pro level were w.r.t zone pass coverage and generating turnovers?

He and Dungy co-created the tampa 2 so he essentially runs the same D. I would take him over Dungy simply because I don't think Kiffin would go with players as ridiculously undersized as Dungy did while he was here but he would still continue to run the tampa 2 so overall...no thanks. I'm still on the Brian Billick bandwagon and at this point I'd even be fine with Gruden...at least Gruden was calling out the Colts coaches during the game for playing so much soft tampa coverage.

[GoColts8818]

How about we just bring back Dungy (which I don't think is as farfetched as some think... Eric is at Oregon now, he left to see his last high-school years), let go of Coyer... and take away Clyde's playcalling duties. I cannot sleep with the fact we threw on 3rd and inches. I don't care if it is just Delone vs 11. If you cannot pick up inches on 3rd, you should pack up and go home. If you cannot do it yet AGAIN on 4th, you should forfeit the season. That was inexcusable. The one credit I give him is the creative screens to Wayne/Garcon. Normally, this are horrid like last year and result in nothing. However, the blocking was very well executed so props to those calls. Also, the fake handoff, screen pass to addai that Addai dropped would have gone the distance. Good call.

Coyer... hmm... Can't think of a defining "play".

Caldwell: I tried so hard to root for you, but game after game I begin to lose faith.

Coyer: Show me something...

Clyde: Stay consistent and grow some and Peyton will let you keep your job next year. You've got the intelligence, there is no doubt; use it and be aggressive. Stop saying, "Oh, we don't have these guys on the line..." Your excuses echo down to the team, who will make excuses.

Dungy also has something like two more little girls and another little son at home. I think Dungy's retirement is going to stick.

Peyton doesn't decide if coaches get fired or not. No team in their right mind would give a player that kind of power. Clyde has shown me somethings the past few weeks. We are adjusting on offense. He's dialing up some good plays. We aren't hitting on all of them because Peyton isn't there (the pass to Garcon last week) but the screen pass to Garcon came at the right time and came against an over aggresive Bucs D and after the Bucs were starting to jump the route on the curl routes. He's also calling small plays on 3rd and long plays with Painter to avoid the big mistake. Even the thrid and short play was a good play call against the agresive Bucs D that had been casuing troulbe for our ground all night long, credit the Bucs corner for not biting on it. Again the Bucs get played too. Also Clark falling down kinda hurt that play because I think that is where they were going on it.

[chad72]

Can Mike Singletary been DC before? Can he coach a 4-3? Just curious.

[GoColts8818]

Can Mike Singletary been DC before? Can he coach a 4-3? Just curious.

3-4 vs 4-3 is phylosphy you don't just come coach one if you believe in the other. I am not sure what Singeltary uses to be honest though.

[indy1888]

So what star player on offense do you want to give up so we can have more players on defense?

They could have saved the wasted 4 mill they spent on Collins. They also could not have greatly overpaid Hayden(who is now released) and Brackett. I assume those are just a few of the examples he is speaking of. We don't have to give up star offensive players, we just can't greatly overpay marginal players. I almost forgot Bullitt. Backup quality with a steel rod in his shoulder, that probably wasn't the smartest of deals either.

[Jason_]

3-4 vs 4-3 is phylosphy you don't just come coach one if you believe in the other. I am not sure what Singeltary uses to be honest though.

Ron Rivera did...he ran the cover 2 in Chicago but continued to run the 3-4 in San Diego....he's the exception though definitely and not the norm. He was at the top of my wish list as Dungy's tenure was coming to an end.

[chad72]

3-4 vs 4-3 is phylosphy you don't just come coach one if you believe in the other. I am not sure what Singeltary uses to be honest though.

He is LB coach for the Vikes who use a 4-3. He played in the 4-6 Bears D, of course we all know that . He was with the 49ers who played a 3-4. So, not sure if he is pigeon holed to one system or not, hence the question.

[GoColts8818]

Ron Rivera did...he ran the cover 2 in Chicago but continued to run the 3-4 in San Diego....he's the exception though definitely and not the norm. He was at the top of my wish list as Dungy's tenure was coming to an end.

He also didn't go right into coaching the D in San Diego he started as a linebackers coach and got a chance to kinda learn their D. You said it though he's the exception and I think Rivera is a 3-4 coach by trade (I am not sure what he runs with the Panthers so I could be wrong) he was coaching with Smith who was a cover-2 guy in Chicago and like Dungy here I think had a lot to do with the defense.

[GoColts8818]

He is LB coach for the Vikes who use a 4-3. He played in the 4-6 Bears D, of course we all know that . He was with the 49ers who played a 3-4. So, not sure if he is pigeon holed to one system or not, hence the question.

Coaching the linebackers isn't the same as coaching the D. Also what you played in has little to do with what you might coach when given the chance. It could be part of the 49ers down fall under Singletary is that he is a 4-3 guy though but he was forced to use the 3-4 because it's what was there and you don't just change from a 3-4 to a 4-3 or vice versa. Also I am not sure who coached the D with the 49ers, if they were a 3-4 team Singletary might have kept his nose out of defensive game plan. I think Singletary was also the linebackers coach there before he became the head coach and not the DC but I could very well be wrong on that. I am not really sure I will be the first to admit I don't follow the 49ers that closely.

[Jason_]

based on the depth chart on the Carolina official website they run a 4-3. That is a good point that he didn't start right off as D coordinator. However I do think there are a lot of coaches who were in the same position who would have pushed to make the switch if they believed in one scheme over the other. I've always liked that about Rivera in that I thought it showed good versatility on his part to adjust to the scheme that best fit the players instead of pushing for a scheme change.

I feel the same about Brian Billick. In Minnesota he was successful with a high-powered, pass first offense but was also successful in Baltimore with a power running based offense.

[GoColts8818]

They could have saved the wasted 4 mill they spent on Collins. They also could not have greatly overpaid Hayden(who is now released) and Brackett. I assume those are just a few of the examples he is speaking of. We don't have to give up star offensive players, we just can't greatly overpay marginal players. I almost forgot Bullitt. Backup quality with a steel rod in his shoulder, that probably wasn't the smartest of deals either.

You mean the guy that everyone and their mother was screaming for us to go get when we got him? There were only a handful of people saying trust Painter at that point so most of the would be GMs here would have signed Collins or another vet QB at that point in time. Also that came way late, most of the free agents on the market then are still there now and they are there for a reason. They aren't very good.

As for Hayden, the same guy that again most of the message board was saying we couldn't let get away when he was a free agent? Again most of the would be GMs would have done the samething the Colts did with him. Yet now that it didn't work out they just forget that it's what the fans wanted done at the time yet hold Polian's feet to the fire for doing exactly what they were calling for him to do.

As for Bullitt it's not that big of a contract when you look at it. Also when the deal was done I really doubt the Colts expected him to get hurt again this quickly. Clearly if they had they wouldn't have resigned him. Also at least three other teams were looking at Bullitt according to reports so clearly we weren't the only ones who thought he was a decent player which he is.

[chrisfarley]

one thing is for sure, we can't count on our defense to hold in the closing 5 or so minutes of a game. we get pounded. we need Manning in there to give us a 2 TD lead with 4 to 5 minutes remaining. we can count on Painter to NOT give us that kind of lead.

[Thewholefnshow28]

I understand the defensive secondary had injuries, but they did not even try to mix some things up in the front seven.

All game long they were just doing little check downs to their running backs so we continually just gave it to them and did not even try anything to mix things up. Why not throw Jamaal Anderson at DT and let him drop back into a zone once or twice. They were able to get into manageable third downs so easily because of this and really handicapped our defense the entire game. The injuries to the secondary is no excuse for no adjustment by Coyer to combat this.

I though our offense adjusted pretty well to their blitz and used the screen to combat it. What I do not get is hwy we got away from the run and started playing like we had Manning out there. We started throwing early and only running on obvious running downs. It looked like our one dimensional offense from last year with just a lesser QB out there.

I am over Coyer's prevent the win defense.

[Balzer40]

The Tampa 2 has to go. And those blaming Angerer for all the passes over the middle, thats ridiculous. Brackett could not have done anything about that either. When the coach has you playing a soft zone coverage 20 yds. away from the line of scrimmage, there is absolutely nothing that can be done except get abused.

[Smitto]

Hm...maybe it's Caldwell then. The fact that player size and strength began increasing the second Dungy left leads me to believe Polian has been getting players that the HC wants and this is why I think it's less likely, though not impossible, that Bill isn't the one married to the tampa 2. It definitely could be though but the change in drafting tendency leads me to think it'd be more on the coaches Hard to say for sure though but like you said, the scheme needs to go.

Without the tampa 2 Brackett isn't missed nearly as much, if at all.

And thats the thing i think the colts are concerned about... IF they were to change schemes how would freeney, mathis and guys like that fit in the scheme? and what type of scheme would it be? definitley cant be a 3-4 altough it seems like the colts do have the LB's for it now with bringing A.J.... the colts just need to tweak the defense more if anytihing... stay away from the tampa 2 as much as they can.

[LUVTHESHOE]

yes a tweak is needed, i wonder if coaches have noticed even yet this morning that tampa might just throw

to that 12 yard soft spot where 90 % of other nfl teams have there linebackers! also this is a little off topic

but did anyone else think that gruden was a little extra hard on our staff and scheme last night. almost as if

he were lobbying for the job. kinda the vibe i got.

[Smitto]

yes a tweak is needed, i wonder if coaches have noticed even yet this morning that tampa might just throw

to that 12 yard soft spot where 90 % of other nfl teams have there linebackers! also this is a little off topic

but did anyone else think that gruden was a little extra hard on our staff and scheme last night. almost as if

he were lobbying for the job. kinda the vibe i got.

I was thinking that all last season, he loves qb's and i can recall someone saying he would love to be on the team that gets andrew luck to develop him.... but then again isnt john a tampa 2 defense guy?

[scorptile]

You mean the guy that everyone and their mother was screaming for us to go get when we got him? There were only a handful of people saying trust Painter at that point so most of the would be GMs here would have signed Collins or another vet QB at that point in time. Also that came way late, most of the free agents on the market then are still there now and they are there for a reason. They aren't very good.

As for Hayden, the same guy that again most of the message board was saying we couldn't let get away when he was a free agent? Again most of the would be GMs would have done the samething the Colts did with him. Yet now that it didn't work out they just forget that it's what the fans wanted done at the time yet hold Polian's feet to the fire for doing exactly what they were calling for him to do.

As for Bullitt it's not that big of a contract when you look at it. Also when the deal was done I really doubt the Colts expected him to get hurt again this quickly. Clearly if they had they wouldn't have resigned him. Also at least three other teams were looking at Bullitt according to reports so clearly we weren't the only ones who thought he was a decent player which he is.

You mean the guy that everyone and their mother was screaming for us to go get when we got him? There were only a handful of people saying trust Painter at that point so most of the would be GMs here would have signed Collins or another vet QB at that point in time. Also that came way late, most of the free agents on the market then are still there now and they are there for a reason. They aren't very good.

As for Hayden, the same guy that again most of the message board was saying we couldn't let get away when he was a free agent? Again most of the would be GMs would have done the samething the Colts did with him. Yet now that it didn't work out they just forget that it's what the fans wanted done at the time yet hold Polian's feet to the fire for doing exactly what they were calling for him to do.

As for Bullitt it's not that big of a contract when you look at it. Also when the deal was done I really doubt the Colts expected him to get hurt again this quickly. Clearly if they had they wouldn't have resigned him. Also at least three other teams were looking at Bullitt according to reports so clearly we weren't the only ones who thought he was a decent player which he is.

just wanted to say jason david said hi hehe ;) but otherwise i understand the thing about the rookie secondary but drop the other two LBers and stay put with angerer and guess what the dump off pass dissapears. just one player not backing off would have made a massive difference instead of backing them all off for 20 to 30 plays IN A ROW

[LUVTHESHOE]

did'nt seem to to be a big tampa two guy last night. i do recall on two occasions sounding loike one

of us on this forum talking about that the staff has to make some in game adjustments.

[LUVTHESHOE]

Does coyer know what a lb blitz is?

sure he does it is when your linebackers are 14 yards away from the line of scrimmage and the other teams

dumps a 4 yard pass to the middle and then we blitz up there and stop them for a nine yard gain.