would you support a trade, fleener to new England

[Warhawk]

Short answer: NO.

 

Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

BTW, I've pointed this out before, but tight ends rarely produce at an elite level as rookies.  I went through all the elite and borderline-elite TEs I could think of a while back, and 95% of them either barely played their rookie seasons or put up numbers no better than 50% of what they would put up in future seasons (often less than that).  We're talking about TEs who routinely get 70+/1000+ consistently having rookie seasons that are like 30/450.  It's incredible how rare a great rookie season from a TE is.

[Gavin]

How often does a second year player have a history of production? Especially at tight end? Do we need to pull out the first year stats of the best tight ends in the game again?

If you're talking about college production, I don't know what's wrong with 34 catches and 10 touchdowns at Stanford.

I think people are hyper critical of Coby Fleener right now. I guess that's to be expected, but that doesn't mean it isn't still a head scratcher.

I was talking about a history of production from the college level vs drafting a guy based him being declared some "athletic freak". Im not sure you understood the meaning of post or my intent at least. What my post was meant to convey is that I like Fleener, I think he has potential and plenty of it. I think he will get better, I expect him to get better, I think we all do? He did show he was scared to catch some passes over the middle, He pulled up several times on passes but I expect that to get better as well(Thats not condemning him thats just facts). I was saying I would take a guy with a history of production from the draft over a guy with potential all because of a great combine

[BOTT]

lol evidently you dont pay attention to Colts games nearly as well as you think you do, go back and watch a couple of Lucks passes towards him that he didn't catch, He clearly pulled up several times because he was scared to take the hit.......As for drafting a player on potential, Would I draft a player on pure potential alone? Of course not, Would you draft a guy all because he looked great in shorts? I would hope not. Truth is your always drafting a player based on potential in the draft BUT there is a difference between drafting a player who has potential all because he is deemed an "athletic freak" and drafting  a player who has potential on your team who has a history of production.......Give me the guy the has potential on my team who has a history of production every time

Clearly? Link the video. The rest of your post is just jibber jabber.

[IrishColt22]

Why would we lose a pick next year for Gordy? We gave up a pick for him last year I believe, so I don't know why we would next year.

no this year we gave up the 2nd for Vontae and then the fifth in the trade to get Ty the year before thats why we traded next years 4th rounder to get Montori but last offseason it seems we sent a conditional 2014 pick to the rams for Gordy now whether or not the terms of the trade have been met i dont know but if they have i would like to get one back ya know.

[IrishColt22]

Why would we lose a pick next year for Gordy? We gave up a pick for him last year I believe, so I don't know why we would next year.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/colts-trade-gordy-release-lumpkin-fan-123400279--nfl.html

[Gavin]

Clearly? Link the video. The rest of your post is just jibber jabber.

Unfortunately its not that easy, Cant post NFL Rewind games on the forum but its nice of you to dismiss the rest of my post as jibber jabber even when there are teams that dont but you go ahead and draft that guy who ran a fast forty in the first who did not produce

[Superman]

I was talking about a history of production from the college level vs drafting a guy based him being declared some "athletic freak". Im not sure you understood the meaning of post or my intent at least. What my post was meant to convey is that I like Fleener, I think he has potential and plenty of it. I think he will get better, I expect him to get better, I think we all do? He did show he was scared to catch some passes over the middle, He pulled up several times on passes but I expect that to get better as well(Thats not condemning him thats just facts). I was saying I would take a guy with a history of production from the draft over a guy with potential all because of a great combine

Okay, but Fleener was productive in college. Maybe you're not really talking about Fleener...

I don't know if he was scared to go across the middle. I know he was hurt part of the year. Either way, I think Fleener will be a significant part of what we do this season, and his potential will start to pay off.

[Superman]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/colts-trade-gordy-release-lumpkin-fan-123400279--nfl.html

I'd be willing to bet that's a conditional draft pick. Not a lot of details out there about the terms of that trade. We'll find out before next year's draft.

[BOTT]

Unfortunately its not that easy, Cant post NFL Rewind games on the forum but its nice of you to dismiss the rest of my post as jibber jabber even when there are teams that dont but you go ahead and draft that guy who ran a fast forty in the first who did not produce

I have NFL rewind, and I don't recall Fleener do it......Reggie and TY did.

It was jibber jabber because you went off on some tangent about college production vs potential which wasn't not relevant at all to the discussion.

[Gavin]

Okay, but Fleener was productive in college. Maybe you're not really talking about Fleener...

I don't know if he was scared to go across the middle. I know he was hurt part of the year. Either way, I think Fleener will be a significant part of what we do this season, and his potential will start to pay off.

Im talking about Fleener, He was productive in college (signs that he had the potential to be productive in the NFL which he was productive last year, Not Gronk numbers but still productive, Gronk like numbers should not be expected)....In other words, if a guy was not productive in college I would not take him early. Some players shoot up the draft boards and are taken early because of a fast 40.....Im not a guy thats going to draft a player just on a fast 40 alone...If thats the case where is Usain Bolt?

[Warhorse]

That said, I think we should be better about separating discussion of the merits of a trade with critisism of a player. I'd prolly buy into the OPs trade, but am not knocking Fleener at all.

 Thanks for the voice of reasoning.

 

First...assuming the OP was not suggesting that Fleener needed to be traded, it might be a bit more civil to get off the pile and see if they are still breathing. It is quite realistic and very poignantly current that the Pats would be looking at picking up a TE. Although it is not realistic that any team would trade a recent pick before their value has fully demonstrated itself, it is not impossible. The Pats are not in our division and we dont play them this regular season.

 

Second...there is only a small handfull of players on the Colts current squad that we would NOT take a first rounder for. That high of a draft pick only goes to serious proven talent or a QB.

 

Lastly...if the intent is to provide legitimacy to the thread, it would help to list all the TE's that are realistic possibilites for the Pats to consider, therefore showing why Fleener would actually be considered.....by either side of the transaction. Generally, supply and demand is the demon that drives trades of this type.

[Gavin]

I have NFL rewind, and I don't recall Fleener do it......Reggie and TY did.

It was jibber jabber because you went off on some tangent about college production vs potential which wasn't not relevant at all to the discussion.

Its very relevant when your talking about drafting a player because you want to know why he was productive, why he deserves a high round grade, Ill go back and find an example of Fleener

[BOTT]

Its very relevant when your talking about drafting a player because you want to know why he was productive, why he deserves a high round grade, Ill go back and find an example of Fleener

But nobody was actually discussing that.

[IrishColt22]

I'd be willing to bet that's a conditional draft pick. Not a lot of details out there about the terms of that trade. We'll find out before next year's draft.

oh it is ya i said that above, i just wasn't sure if we have already met the criteria in order for them to send it or if he has to make the roster this year and if he does we might keep it as i think swanson and price have a better chance them him to make the 53.

[Gavin]

But nobody was actually discussing that.

Still relevant...It shows that he has the ability to produce, Thats how its relevant, If we trade a player after 1 year that showed that he has the skills to produce big and has produced big then it could come back to bite us, There isn't much in the form of TE's that have shown they can be productive in the NFL that are currently FA's with the exception of an aging Dallas Clark(34) and Chris Cooley....Although Cooley is only 30

[BOTT]

Still relevant...It shows that he has the ability to produce, Thats how its relevant, If we trade a player after 1 year that showed that he has the skills to produce big and has produced big then it could come back to bite us, There isn't much in the form of TE's that have shown they can be productive in the NFL that are currently FA's with the exception of an aging Dallas Clark(34) and Chris Cooley....Although Cooley is only 30

I give up

[Gavin]

I give up

so soon?

[BOTT]

so soon?

The wall > my head

[CanuckColt]

So after reading all the arguments pro and con, yes I would trade Fleener for any 1st rounder...even for a top-10 2nd rounder.

And no, I don't think he is going to be a star in the NFL.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Everything you say is true, particularly with regard to the structure the Colts have in place, which should be beneficial for Fleener. But virtually everyone has a price. Fleener isn't untouchable, and an extra first rounder is a valuable commodity, even if it means helping a conference rival.

Personally, I wouldn't do this trade. I might have done this in April for a first rounder in the 2013 draft, but not for a pick in next year's draft. We'd be weakening our roster now for a payoff next year. Teams usually only do that if there are major money considerations or character issues, neither of which is at play with Fleener.

Then there's the fact, as many have mentioned, that the Patriots wouldn't give up a first rounder for Coby Fleener, even if they are desperate for tight ends. I should also mention that the Patriots aren't desperate for tight ends. They have Tom Brady and Bill Belichick; they'll be fine.

 

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I certainly did not say or imply anyone is untouchable. I thought I was quite clear in writing that the Colts aren't trading any of their Tight Ends to a rival....especially a Franchise rival. And if they were to do something that stupid, Fleener would be the last one they'd trade. What the Patriots* would or would not do vis-a-vis draft picks isn't something I cared to address.

 

Now regarding the Patriots* desperation in needing TEs, any sane observer would conclude that if both Hernandez AND Gronkowski were unavailable...then they would indeed be desperate for a good player to take up the slack. Whether that player is currently on their roster or not is the issue for them. Regardless, I am nowhere near as enamored with Tom Brady (system QB) or Bill Belichick** (Cheater) as some would appear to be. If they go into the season without Hernandez and Gronkowski, they're very vulnerable.

[Freenyfan102]

Would colts consider trading fleener for new Englands first round next year. Just food for thought. May be a good replacement for Hernandez. I am a believer in fleeners potential.

 

Think before posting......

[Mameluc]

Why is everyone determined to get Fleener off this team?!

why does everyone think those are fair deals? i mean why would the pats send a 1st for him? 

 

is like some months ago, i read someone when the whole maclin rumors were flying around..i think i read something like "i would trade a 4th for Maclin".....why would the eagles do that? is like every player on other team is supposed to be cheap and every player on our team is bound to get us a 1st rounder

[John Waylon]

I would support trading this thread to New England. For a tebow 8X10.

[Jindrake]

Really hes been here one year and hurt,Your comparing him to DB ,wouldn't you consider it maybe just a little early for that comparison ?

I didn't mean it like that I meant in the context of the message boards new whipping boy. If you misunderstood my context I am sorry I didn't mean the comparision between the 2 players as much as the board seems to beat on him like they do db.

[CanuckColt]

.... And if they were to do something that stupid, Fleener would be the last one they'd trade.

...

No.....Dwayne Allen would be the last TE they would trade. 

Compared to Allen, Fleener is very tradeable.

[Jay Kirk]

I didn't mean it like that I meant in the context of the message boards new whipping boy. If you misunderstood my context I am sorry I didn't mean the comparision between the 2 players as much as the board seems to beat on him like they do db.

NP must have misunderstood your point

[Superman]

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. I certainly did not say or imply anyone is untouchable. I thought I was quite clear in writing that the Colts aren't trading any of their Tight Ends to a rival....especially a Franchise rival. And if they were to do something that stupid, Fleener would be the last one they'd trade. What the Patriots* would or would not do vis-a-vis draft picks isn't something I cared to address.

 

Now regarding the Patriots* desperation in needing TEs, any sane observer would conclude that if both Hernandez AND Gronkowski were unavailable...then they would indeed be desperate for a good player to take up the slack. Whether that player is currently on their roster or not is the issue for them. Regardless, I am nowhere near as enamored with Tom Brady (system QB) or Bill Belichick** (Cheater) as some would appear to be. If they go into the season without Hernandez and Gronkowski, they're very vulnerable.

 

No, I know you didn't. I'm saying that if the offer is good enough, virtually anyone can be traded to any other team. It's highly unlikely that two rival teams could agree to terms on something like this, for several reasons. And if the player is good enough for a rival team to be making such a great offer, why trade him? It's purely hypothetical, I'm just saying that while the Colts aren't trading Fleener to the Patriots, if the offer was good enough, I think they would.

 

Regarding the Patriots, not having Gronkowski and Hernandez certainly doesn't make them better. I'm just saying that they'll be fine. They have other tight ends on the roster already. And before those two got there, they were making due with Ben Watson and Chris Baker. And there are other players still available that could fill the void, if they wanted to go that route. They aren't going to give up considerable resources to trade for a tight end just because Gronkowski and Hernandez aren't available. 

[Gavin]

No, I know you didn't. I'm saying that if the offer is good enough, virtually anyone can be traded to any other team. It's highly unlikely that two rival teams could agree to terms on something like this, for several reasons. And if the player is good enough for a rival team to be making such a great offer, why trade him? It's purely hypothetical, I'm just saying that while the Colts aren't trading Fleener to the Patriots, if the offer was good enough, I think they would.

 

Regarding the Patriots, not having Gronkowski and Hernandez certainly doesn't make them better. I'm just saying that they'll be fine. They have other tight ends on the roster already. And before those two got there, they were making due with Ben Watson and Chris Baker. And there are other players still available that could fill the void, if they wanted to go that route. They aren't going to give up considerable resources to trade for a tight end just because Gronkowski and Hernandez aren't available. 

I think some are just seeing what the Patriots are going through both on the field with some players and off the field with 1 players as a oppurtunity to jump all over the Pats like blood hounds. Now Im certainly not a Tom Brady lover by any stretch of the imagination BUT I like to think I know a great QB when I see one, I also dont get this whole system QB argument when in truth ALL QB's are part of some sort of system.......That system has not hampered him from lighting points and yards up through the air on a consistent basis and I'd be willing to bet many QB's could not run his system. Just my thoughts

[Superman]

I think some are just seeing what the Patriots are going through both on the field with some players and off the field with 1 players as a oppurtunity to jump all over the Pats like blood hounds. Now Im certainly not a Tom Brady lover by any stretch of the imagination BUT I like to think I know a great QB when I see one, I also dont get this whole system QB argument when in truth ALL QB's are part of some sort of system.......That system has not hampered him from lighting points and yards up through the air on a consistent basis and I'd be willing to bet many QB's could not run his system. Just my thoughts

 

I agree, Brady is a great quarterback. I think he'll miss his tight ends, but I'm sure they'll deal with it. 

[oldunclemark]

       Coby Fleener will be a Pro Bowl player 

 

       ..we need to trade the Patriots a good defense attorney for their No.1

[GoColts8818]

Everything is there on paper this year for Fleener to have a much better year than he did last year.  He's a year older, the guy running the offense is the same guy who ran his offense in college that helped make him a second round pick in the first place with the same QB none the less, the new offense is supposed to be very tightend friendly, and he's healthy.

 

Also you don't sell a player who think has a lot of talent (which you think when you draft him in the second round) when the market value on him is low.  The Pats aren't going to give you a lot for Fleener for several reasons.

 

1, they have a track record of being able to develop players and I am sure BB feels he can do this again and he doesn't need to trade something of major value to fix the problem

 

2, Fleener isn't worth a first round or second round pick at this point in his career. 

 

3, The Pats just don't trade high round draft picks unless they get a sweet heart deal in return.

 

Also from the Colts stand point if you trade Fleener they will put themselves in the market for a tightend.  In other words you making a hole on your team that you don't need to make.  The Colts are in the position of adding talent to be a playoff team not giving away talent to try to get better in the future.  Also you would have helping a team you are hoping to be competing with to go to the Super Bowl. 

 

Sorry I am just not seeing the upside to the Colts making this trade. 

[Pelt]

I'm surprised there isn't an "Aaron Hernandez released by the Patriots - should we sign him?" thread yet.

[shakedownstreet]

         

[CroatianColtsFan21]

well, this thread makes more sense today

 

and if it were to happen, i'd be all for it.. a 1st rounder? gimme it!

[Jason_]

How long have people been complaining about the Colts not having a big, athletic target for the QB to throw to, especially in the red zone?  Now we have one (plus the QB that was throwing to him in college, and we now have the coordinator who orchestrated said offense) and people have been trying to get rid of him since the moment he was announced as our draft pick.  I don't get it.

 

No, at this point I wouldn't trade Fleener.  He didn't have a bad season last year, he just didn't have an elite year.  That doesn't mean he can't or won't become an elite player.  I fully believe that he can, and will become an elite player.  The guy is 6'6", 250+ lbs and has the athletic ability of a good WR.  IMO his floor is Jimmy Graham but he has the potential to be even better....again, imo.

[CanuckColt]

well, this thread makes more sense today

 

and if it were to happen, i'd be all for it.. a 1st rounder? gimme it!

Yeah...take the 1st rounder and run...especially if Fleener's first year is typical of what to expect every year.

[CanuckColt]

.... Some players shoot up the draft boards and are taken early because of a fast 40.....

Boy, that was exactly what happened to Fleener...he ran fast at the combine and rose up the draft charts.

Before that, Dwayne Allen was the #1 ranked TE by the experts(Charlie Casserly and others)...and the experts were correct.

[Jason_]

Yeah...take the 1st rounder and run...especially if Fleener's first year is typical of what to expect every year.

 

Really?  Did Gronkowski, Gates, Jimmy Graham, Shannon Sharpe, Whitten, etc etc perform in their rookie year in a way that was typical of what they would later go on to do on a yearly basis?

 

Boy, that was exactly what happened to Fleener...he ran fast at the combine and rose up the draft charts.

Before that, Dwayne Allen was the #1 ranked TE by the experts(Charlie Casserly and others)...and the experts were correct.

 

This simply is not true.  I followed that draft very closely and all throughout the year, I saw more mocks and player rankings that had Fleener as the top rated TE than I saw with Allen above him.  Heck, for a while, Eiffert was ranked above Allen pushing Allen down to 3rd.  I saw Allen and Eiffert flip flop at the #2 and #3 positions more than I saw Fleener drop out of the #1 position in the TE rankings throughout that year.

 

 

Also, Fleener's 40 time was hardly a surprise to anyone who watched him at all at Stanford. ;)

[Gavin]

Boy, that was exactly what happened to Fleener...he ran fast at the combine and rose up the draft charts.

Before that, Dwayne Allen was the #1 ranked TE by the experts(Charlie Casserly and others)...and the experts were correct.

your talking about a 2nd round pick and 3rd round pick, big difference then going there and going in the top half of the 1st round of the draft, The expected time for a player to be a stud is much different then for someone in the 3rd round

[CanuckColt]

Everything is there on paper this year for Fleener to have a much better year than he did last year.  He's a year older, the guy running the offense is the same guy who ran his offense in college that helped make him a second round pick in the first place with the same QB none the less, the new offense is supposed to be very tightend friendly, and he's healthy.

 

Also you don't sell a player who think has a lot of talent (which you think when you draft him in the second round) when the market value on him is low.  The Pats aren't going to give you a lot for Fleener for several reasons.

 

1, they have a track record of being able to develop players and I am sure BB feels he can do this again and he doesn't need to trade something of major value to fix the problem

 

2, Fleener isn't worth a first round or second round pick at this point in his career. 

 

3, The Pats just don't trade high round draft picks unless they get a sweet heart deal in return.

 

Also from the Colts stand point if you trade Fleener they will put themselves in the market for a tightend.  In other words you making a hole on your team that you don't need to make.  The Colts are in the position of adding talent to be a playoff team not giving away talent to try to get better in the future.  Also you would have helping a team you are hoping to be competing with to go to the Super Bowl. 

 

Sorry I am just not seeing the upside to the Colts making this trade. 

If the real Fleener is the player we saw year 1 (complete with injuries), we are better off getting a 1st or 2nd for him now if we can.